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post #31 of 48 Old 08-03-2018, 12:03 AM
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Originally Posted by bobknavs View Post
Well, yes, but some receivers (Denon) do a separate gain and delay adjustments for each of two subs. They are then equalized as one.
That is, Denon receivers with Audyssey XT32. Right now, that is x3xxxh series and higher.
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post #32 of 48 Old 08-03-2018, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by drh3b View Post
That is, Denon receivers with Audyssey XT32. Right now, that is x3xxxh series and higher.
Yes, I have one of those in the x3300w. But it is actually not XT32 that does it, it is Sub EQ HT which does the dual sub calibration.

Don't know if Dirac has that capability

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post #33 of 48 Old 08-03-2018, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by afrogt View Post
Yes, I have one of those in the x3300w. But it is actually not XT32 that does it, it is Sub EQ HT which does the dual sub calibration.

Don't know if Dirac has that capability
True, but all of Denon's xt32 receivers have Sub EQ HT, unlike Onkyo's former XT32 receivers.

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post #34 of 48 Old 08-03-2018, 10:38 AM
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The good news is that you can purchase Dirac independently. Use the software to tune whatever setup you have. Boom.


While I haven't used it myself, I've heard it can really yield some great improvements. Worth checking out for sure.
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post #35 of 48 Old 08-03-2018, 10:43 AM
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The good news is that you can purchase Dirac independently. Use the software to tune whatever setup you have. Boom.


While I haven't used it myself, I've heard it can really yield some great improvements. Worth checking out for sure.
Dirac looks interesting, but Audyssey has worked well for me. However, if the soon to be introduced Dirac Unison works as promised, I may look into that in a few years. I figure it will take that long for the bugs to be worked out, and for it to be introduced in some affordable fashion.

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post #36 of 48 Old 08-03-2018, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by drh3b View Post
Dirac looks interesting, but Audyssey has worked well for me. However, if the soon to be introduced Dirac Unison works as promised, I may look into that in a few years. I figure it will take that long for the bugs to be worked out, and for it to be introduced in some affordable fashion.



and from what I uderstand, the Audyssey app closes the gap (considerabley?)

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post #37 of 48 Old 08-04-2018, 01:54 AM
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and from what I uderstand, the Audyssey app closes the gap (considerabley?)
The app definitely makes Audyssey more configurable, but I don't think it's nearly as granular as Dirac. I use the app to limit the max it will process up to 500 kHz, and really don't do much beyond that.

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post #38 of 48 Old 08-04-2018, 11:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montucky View Post
The good news is that you can purchase Dirac independently. Use the software to tune whatever setup you have. Boom.


While I haven't used it myself, I've heard it can really yield some great improvements. Worth checking out for sure.
You piqued my interest. I checked: it appears that the Dirac software only corrects the sound output of the PC or Mac on which it is run, or of hardware that has Dirac already installed. If there is a practical way to send the data to a non-Dirac AVR or pre-pro, it's not obvious.

Am I mistaken?

(The software isn't cheap, anyway. 650€ for the full version. 8 speakers, no mention of Atmos or DTS:X.)
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post #39 of 48 Old 08-04-2018, 11:53 PM - Thread Starter
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It's my understanding Dirac installed in AV receivers goes beyond 8 channels unlike the computer only version.
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post #40 of 48 Old 08-05-2018, 08:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Marantz 6012 and Outlaw 5000 Need Validation on 5.2.4 for Cheap

If I picked up a Marantz 6012 for $899 (Amazon)
and an Outlaw 5000 5-channel amp for $599,
I could accomplish all my goals for $1,500?

The 6012 I think has independent sub outs.
I could hook the 5000 to the LCR and SR/SL and have the 6012 handle the 4 Atmos heights.

Is this correct?

9 channel amps are expensive as are 9.2 and 11.2 AV processors.

Last edited by aohurst; 08-07-2018 at 07:33 PM.
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post #41 of 48 Old 08-05-2018, 09:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aohurst View Post
(snip)

Is this correct?

(snip)
Yes.

The SR6012 processes 11 channels (but has 9 onboard amps), so you could go to 7.2.4 Atmos. If you had a 5 channel power amp, you'd have to decide which pair of floor-level speakers would be driven by the AVR as well as the Amos speakers.

I'm running a Denon AVR-X4300H with a 3 channel amp for the LCR fronts. The AVR powers the other 8 channels in a 7.2.4 system.
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post #42 of 48 Old 08-05-2018, 09:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Wow. This is very encouraging. Thanks.
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post #43 of 48 Old 08-06-2018, 12:54 AM
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Yup, this is the Setup I have with my Denon X4300H but I found my Outlaw 5000 used on CL. Great amp.

EDIT: Now the SR6012 already has 9 internally amped channels so I'm not sure if you meant you want to expand to 11 using the Outlaw or just externally amplify some of the channels to take some of the load off of the receivers power supply but both are doable.

Chane A5 towers,Chane A2.4 center,RBH bipole side surrounds, Rythmik LV12R x2,Denon X4300H, Outlaw 5000,Front B speakers: Wharfedale Diamond 10.1 books. https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-rec...d-part-ii.html

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post #44 of 48 Old 08-06-2018, 02:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aohurst View Post
If I picked up a Marantz 6012 for $899 (Amazon)
and an Outlaw 5000 5-channel amp for $599,
I could accomplish all my goals for $1,500?

The 6012 I think has independent sub outs.
I could hook the 5000 to the LCR and SR/SL and have the 6012 handle the 4 Atmos heights.

Is this correct?
Yes that's correct, but a power amp isn't necessarily mandatory.

You may well accomplish all your goals for $900 (the Marantz only), depending on your preferred listening SPL's, listening distance and your speaker's sensitivity. Can you fill us in on those few factors?

Last edited by GIEGAR; 08-06-2018 at 04:26 AM.
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post #45 of 48 Old 08-06-2018, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobknavs View Post
You piqued my interest. I checked: it appears that the Dirac software only corrects the sound output of the PC or Mac on which it is run, or of hardware that has Dirac already installed. If there is a practical way to send the data to a non-Dirac AVR or pre-pro, it's not obvious.

Am I mistaken?

(The software isn't cheap, anyway. 650€ for the full version. 8 speakers, no mention of Atmos or DTS:X.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by aohurst View Post
It's my understanding Dirac installed in AV receivers goes beyond 8 channels unlike the computer only version.
Great question. I have never used it so not super familiar with it, but apparently this is how you do it for Atmos or something higher than 8 channels:
https://www.minidsp.com/support/comm...-with-ddrc-88a
So, it looks like you do it with a couple DSPs. It isn't going to be "cheap" necessarily, which actually makes receivers/pre-pros with built-in Dirac Live that much of a better value when you look at it that way. When Emotiva releases the Atmos upgrade for the XMC-1, it's going to be a game changer and one heck of a bargain.
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post #46 of 48 Old 08-06-2018, 03:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GIEGAR View Post
Yes that's correct, but a power amp isn't necessarily mandatory.

You may well accomplish all your goals for $900 (the Marantz only), depending on your preferred listening SPL's, listening distance and your speaker's sensitivity. Can you fill us in on those few factors?
Yes, I was going to take some of the load off the 6012 even though it could power all 9 channels. I was doing a 5.2.4.

Mostly HT (80%).
5,000 cub ft room (14w x 28d x 13h) that also opens to a staircase, entryway and kitchen.
Looking at Hsu CCB-8's which have 94 db sensitivity.
I sit about 12 feet from LCR.

Not sure if I need an amp, but price was reasonable.
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post #47 of 48 Old 08-07-2018, 07:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aohurst View Post
Yes, I was going to take some of the load off the 6012 even though it could power all 9 channels. I was doing a 5.2.4.

Mostly HT (80%).
5,000 cub ft room (14w x 28d x 13h) that also opens to a staircase, entryway and kitchen.
Looking at Hsu CCB-8's which have 94 db sensitivity.
I sit about 12 feet from LCR.

Not sure if I need an amp, but price was reasonable.
Thanks for giving those details.

The CCB-8's are a nice choice. They're 94dB/2.83V/1m in half space, so we need to dock them 3dB for direct comparison to speakers spec'd in full space/anechoic. 91dB/2.83V/1m is still above average sensitivity.

If you watch at Reference Level (calibrated 0.0dBMV), a CCB-8 will produce a theoretical maximum program peak at a 12ft seat with 20dB gain from the amp, which equates to a 100W burst of power into 8Ω. This burst/dynamic power can be achieved by an amp rated for 50W continuous/Sine wave/"RMS" power (due to Sine waves having a 3dB crest factor), so can easily be produced by the 110WPC rated Marantz SR6012. If you "only" watch at -5.0dBMV, the required burst/dynamic power drops to one third of that: >30W.

If you're cost conscious, even though the price of the Outlaw is reasonable, I'd suggest putting it on the back-burner and devoting the $600 towards another set of CCB-8's or even step up to PSA MT-110's for the LCR, which require 2.5x less power again to play any given level. Better overall results to be had there with speakers, rather than spending on rated power output that you may never tap into.

Hope that helps!
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post #48 of 48 Old 08-07-2018, 07:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GIEGAR View Post
Thanks for giving those details.

The CCB-8's are a nice choice. They're 94dB/2.83V/1m in half space, so we need to dock them 3dB for direct comparison to speakers spec'd in full space/anechoic. 91dB/2.83V/1m is still above average sensitivity.

If you watch at Reference Level (calibrated 0.0dBMV), a CCB-8 will produce a theoretical maximum program peak at a 12ft seat with 20dB gain from the amp, which equates to a 100W burst of power into 8Ω. This burst/dynamic power can be achieved by an amp rated for 50W continuous/Sine wave/"RMS" power (due to Sine waves having a 3dB crest factor), so can easily be produced by the 110WPC rated Marantz SR6012. If you "only" watch at -5.0dBMV, the required burst/dynamic power drops to one third of that: >30W.

If you're cost conscious, even though the price of the Outlaw is reasonable, I'd suggest putting it on the back-burner and devoting the $600 towards another set of CCB-8's or even step up to PSA MT-110's for the LCR, which require 2.5x less power again to play any given level. Better overall results to be had there with speakers, rather than spending on rated power output that you may never tap into.

Hope that helps!
@GIEGAR -- thank you for the info. This is much appreciated. I will ditch the amp and focus on better speakers.
I have the space to use 3 identical speakers for LCR. The TV is on a mount that places the bottom edge of the display at 48 inches (too high I know).
So there is enough room under the TV for three towers or three identical bookshelves.
I will research the MT-110's.
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