How much pre-amp -> amp cables matter? - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 244 Old 08-25-2018, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by bobknavs View Post
It looks like the components and speakers the OP lists retail at over $30k.

Maybe $2.2k cable sets are almost down in the noise, self-servingly snobbish salesmen notwithstanding.

The Bluejeans cabling may be a good compromise. Expensive enough to inspire confidence, cheap enough to not induce fears of having been duped.
All salespeople are in part self serving. The trick in sales is to genuinely match your product with the best interests of the customer.

Hence it's a relationship not just a sale.

Quick question though, how do you know the salesperson is a snob?

Maybe our perception comes from within?

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #62 of 244 Old 08-25-2018, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Gabre View Post
Of course, same as difference with 3000 and 5000 dollar amp or speaker.

Everything matters

Wait, are you implying that more expensive automatically = better?


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Originally Posted by bobknavs View Post
The Bluejeans cabling may be a good compromise. Expensive enough to inspire confidence, cheap enough to not induce fears of having been duped.

Agree!

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post #63 of 244 Old 08-25-2018, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Jonas2 View Post
Wait, are you implying that more expensive automatically = better?





Agree!
In Hi Fi pretty much yes

Why would people buy expensive then

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post #64 of 244 Old 08-25-2018, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Gabre View Post
In Hi Fi pretty much yes

Why would people buy expensive then

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cosmetics can be pretty expensive, just sayin'

as can prestige...

neither directly influence sound
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post #65 of 244 Old 08-25-2018, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Gabre View Post
In Hi Fi pretty much yes

Why would people buy expensive then
A lot of people buy expensive because they don't know any better. Cables are just one example, but there are plenty to go around. Not saying expensive doesn't mean good (though not always), but less expensive can be just as good or better to attain a desired outcome.

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post #66 of 244 Old 08-25-2018, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Jonas2 View Post
A lot of people buy expensive because they don't know any better. Cables are just one example, but there are plenty to go around. Not saying expensive doesn't mean good (though not always), but less expensive can be just as good or better to attain a desired outcome.
and ones mans crap is another mans treasure. I hemmed and hawed for a long time before spending $200 on a set of cables. But having been burnt several times by Emotiva and Monoprice,
figured i’d do it.
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post #67 of 244 Old 08-25-2018, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Gabre View Post
In Hi Fi pretty much yes
especially in "HiFi" this is usually not the case and for sure not for cables.

Quote:
Why would people buy expensive then
because they (want to) believe getting something better and are not capable of understanding the physical facts or how to do a real (and fair) comparison!
if you tell "average" people there is one cable for $10 and another "high end" for $1000 they WILL hear the difference at least as long they know which cable is connected.

let me tell you a story:
over the time i have build an universal set of switching boxes/devices for different purposes. That started with simple "manual" switches, boxes with relays and proprietary radio control (since these boxes originally where intended to be used without the line of sight for IR remote control) and the latest ones are based on ESP8266 modules and WLAN control.
anyway, all these switches rely on the local infrastructure, can't be loaned and some friends and colleagues are coming here to compare their devices.

that brought me to an idea:
i told them (3 visitors) that i had connected a power amp ($3000) and a simple (<$500) integrated stereo amp and will switch between them. That was a lie, the speakers where connected to ONE amp, the two power relays where connected to NOTHING, the only purpose was to generate a loud "click" sound to give the impression something has been switched!

what shall i say? 2 of 3 persons where pretty sure to hear the difference, though they heard exactly the same all the time, interrupted by the clicking sound of a relay connected to nothing!

the "strong believe" in: "a $3000 power amp MUST sound better than a 6 times "cheaper" integrated amp" was enough to "devise" a difference between nothing...
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post #68 of 244 Old 08-25-2018, 05:54 PM
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So let me ask you, what components do you have and why if everything sounds the same and why don't you own a stereo from Walmart then?

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post #69 of 244 Old 08-25-2018, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Gabre View Post
So let me ask you, what components do you have and why if everything sounds the same and why don't you own a stereo from Walmart then?
From the part I've bold-typed from your post above, either you're being seriously disingenuous there or you have very poor reading skills if this is what you've summarized from the previous posts within this thread.
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post #70 of 244 Old 08-25-2018, 07:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabre View Post
In Hi Fi pretty much yes

Why would people buy expensive then
Quality components can sometimes be expensive, but snake oil is always expensive. The trick in audio is figuring out which is which before you buy. Not everybody figures it out in time, which is why there is a real market for snake oil.
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post #71 of 244 Old 08-25-2018, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Gabre View Post
So let me ask you, what components do you have and why if everything sounds the same and why don't you own a stereo from Walmart then?
It's not necessarily that. There are poorly designed, and poorly assembled things that are cheap, but that makes no sense to buy garbage. They won't sound the same as higher quality, and yes, more expensive equipment.

But you do get to a point of diminishing returns in just about everything. Still, if one wants to pay a lot of money for a name brand for that recognition, or a certain look, specific features otherwise not offered elsewhere, or just because it makes them happy, by all means, I won't criticize anybody for that.

Anyway, I don't think we need to get stuck in an endless debate. The OP did the right thing by coming here and asking. Opinions and experiences delivered, now he can make hopefully a better-informed decision about the purchase.

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post #72 of 244 Old 08-25-2018, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by CruelInventions View Post
From the part I've bold-typed from your post above, either you're being seriously disingenuous there or you have very poor reading skills if this is what you've summarized from the previous posts within this thread.
I can't grasp the fact that someone spends 100,000k on speakers and equipment, but then at the same time uses monoprice cables with that.
And at the same time calling people that spend some money on DECENT $100-200cables stupid.

I would call a person that spends 100,000k on hi-fi stupid, naive, and buying snake oil.
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Quality components can sometimes be expensive, but snake oil is always expensive. The trick in audio is figuring out which is which before you buy. Not everybody figures it out in time, which is why there is a real market for snake oil.
As in everything. Hi-fi is a complex story, where everything makes a difference, and only people that really know their systems can differentiate small pieces of puzzle.



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Originally Posted by Jonas2 View Post
It's not necessarily that. There are poorly designed, and poorly assembled things that are cheap, but that makes no sense to buy garbage. They won't sound the same as higher quality, and yes, more expensive equipment.

But you do get to a point of diminishing returns in just about everything. Still, if one wants to pay a lot of money for a name brand for that recognition, or a certain look, specific features otherwise not offered elsewhere, or just because it makes them happy, by all means, I won't criticize anybody for that.

Anyway, I don't think we need to get stuck in an endless debate. The OP did the right thing by coming here and asking. Opinions and experiences delivered, now he can make hopefully a better-informed decision about the purchase.
Sure, look at it that way, but you are trying to justify spending loads of money on tech.

When, as seen in last few posts in justifiable to spends 100s of thousands, but hey, cables are irrelevant which are blood vessels in any audio system

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post #73 of 244 Old 08-25-2018, 11:19 PM
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Originally Posted by eljr View Post
All salespeople are in part self serving. The trick in sales is to genuinely match your product with the best interests of the customer.

Hence it's a relationship not just a sale.

Quick question though, how do you know the salesperson is a snob?

Maybe our perception comes from within?
I was trying to be relatively kind. A snob is at least genuine, better than calling him a confidence artist.

I like alliteration, too.

I regret sticking my oar in this. I'm not into equipment for the carriage trade. People who spend more on AV gear than what would have been a respectable year's salary 40 years are looking for other things than I am.

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post #74 of 244 Old 08-25-2018, 11:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Gabre View Post
(snip)

When, as seen in last few posts in justifiable to spends 100s of thousands, but hey, cables are irrelevant which are blood vessels in any audio system

(snip)
Gotta love those analogies.
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post #75 of 244 Old 08-26-2018, 01:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Sorry - I didn't mean to start a heated debate over this topic. I'm relative new to audio, so I just wanted to see what more experienced people thought.

And it seems the majority opinion is that wires matter, but not to that extent
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post #76 of 244 Old 08-26-2018, 05:50 AM
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And it seems the majority opinion is that wires matter, but not to that extent
i don't think so, or "not to that extent" is a little bit misleading...

look at the equivalent circuit diagram, there's more or less: a resistance, a capacity and an inductivity.
all of them may differ but their absolute values are in a range where they really don't matter!
let's take the resistance. Even if the wires used are as thin as a hair the resistance will stay below 1Ohm or so. The output impedance of a high end pre amp (10...100Ohm) is still one to two orders of magnitude higher. So it doesn't matter at all if the wire has 1 or 2 Ohm.
and it's the same for the capacity and inductivity.
the only case where you have to care about the capacity of your cables/wires is connecting the pickup of a turntable since the source impedance is much higher than with "electronic" equipment.
but you can get high quality wires with extremely low capacity for far less than $1/ft.

or let it say this way: even the cheapest wire is far more decent than anything else you have in your "chain", especially the speakers and the acoustic of your room.
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post #77 of 244 Old 08-26-2018, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by bobknavs View Post
I was trying to be relatively kind. A snob is at least genuine, better than calling him a confidence artist.

I like alliteration, too.

I regret sticking my oar in this. I'm not into equipment for the carriage trade. People who spend more on AV gear than what would have been a respectable year's salary 40 years are looking for other things than I am.
I find that often those that accuse others of snobbery are often snobs themselves.... or sometimes insecure in themselves.

What is it you are looking for and what is it you perceive the dreaded carriage trade folks are looking for?

You never did say how you knew the salesperson was a snob...

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.

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post #78 of 244 Old 08-26-2018, 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by madhuski View Post
and ones mans crap is another mans treasure. I hemmed and hawed for a long time before spending $200 on a set of cables. But having been burnt several times by Emotiva and Monoprice,
figured i’d do it.
How were you burnt?

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #79 of 244 Old 08-26-2018, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Mickey Mouse View Post
because they (want to) believe getting something better and are not capable of understanding
You realize we all tend to believe our wants?

Has nothing to do with a lack of ability to reason.

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #80 of 244 Old 08-26-2018, 08:57 AM
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I find these threads very interesting. They inevitable have little to do with audio and become exhibitions of self.
A wonderful vista for a psychology enthusiast.

It is ironic that when behavioral science is brought into the discussion the same folks that claim alliance to audio science do as they accuse their detracts. Deny science.

Jolly good fun!

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post #81 of 244 Old 08-26-2018, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by eljr View Post
You realize we all tend to believe our wants?
or you may try to be honest to yourself, that's the difference!

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Has nothing to do with a lack of ability to reason.
i disagree, but probably my point of view as a degreed engineer electronics varies from others...
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post #82 of 244 Old 08-26-2018, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by hehe299792458 View Post
Sorry - I didn't mean to start a heated debate over this topic. I'm relative new to audio, so I just wanted to see what more experienced people thought.

And it seems the majority opinion is that wires matter, but not to that extent
Don't apologize! You had a legitimate concern and did the right thing in questioning that. Cables do matter, but only up to a point, as already illustrated in other posts, science and engineering knows this. You'll find the majority here are looking out for the best interests of its members - and the presentation can range from mild to coming off very harsh - but it's always a cautionary tale about how you do not need to be a sucker. This particular can of worms is opened quite frequently.

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Originally Posted by Gabre View Post
I can't grasp the fact that someone spends 100,000k on speakers and equipment, but then at the same time uses monoprice cables with that.
Why not? Does $100,000 automatically = Gotta spend tons of money on cables?

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Originally Posted by Gabre View Post
And at the same time calling people that spend some money on DECENT $100-200cables stupid.
Where did that happen? I missed it.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabre View Post
I would call a person that spends 100,000k on hi-fi stupid, naive, and buying snake oil.
Only if they were duped. If they are educated in the matter, or have other motivations for doing so, and are not taking out a second mortgage to pay for it, it's only stupid from a certain perspective. It may or may not be snake oil, depending on what they are buying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabre View Post
Sure, look at it that way, but you are trying to justify spending loads of money on tech.

When, as seen in last few posts in justifiable to spends 100s of thousands, but hey, cables are irrelevant which are blood vessels in any audio system
Not trying to justify anything, not sure how you came to that conclusion. Nobody has said cables are irrelevant. The majority opinion and take home message is that multi-thousand dollar cables are not necessary to improving the sound quality, which is the goal in most of these cases, or so I would hope.

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post #83 of 244 Old 08-26-2018, 09:32 AM
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Nobody said cables are irrelevant?

What does it mean then when someone is recommending cheap ass monoprice China crap cables. That to me means cables are irrelevant.

Cheap is never good. In anything. In any field. It can do okay, but there will be BETTER.

This is like when people buy expensive cars, but then don't care about what tires they put on, because, hey, those cheapo ones will roll as well and drive you from A to B.
But there is road noise, wet grip, dry grip, wear, etc etc.
But there WILL be noticeable difference between them.



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post #84 of 244 Old 08-26-2018, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Mickey Mouse View Post


i disagree, but probably my point of view as a degreed engineer electronics varies from others...
Because someone is not educated does not mean they are not educable. Present company excluded. (me!) lol

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.

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post #85 of 244 Old 08-26-2018, 10:00 AM
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Cheap is never good.



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Monoprice is garbage. I tried them at I understand that cables don't need be expensive.

Blue Jeans Cable is entry level for me.

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #86 of 244 Old 08-26-2018, 10:01 AM
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or you may try to be honest to yourself,
Humans are not predisposed to do this.

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #87 of 244 Old 08-26-2018, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonas2 View Post
Don't apologize! You had a legitimate concern and did the right thing in questioning that. Cables do matter, but only up to a point, as already illustrated in other posts, science and engineering knows this. You'll find the majority here are looking out for the best interests of its members - and the presentation can range from mild to coming off very harsh - but it's always a cautionary tale about how you do not need to be a sucker. This particular can of worms is opened quite frequently.



Why not? Does $100,000 automatically = Gotta spend tons of money on cables?



Where did that happen? I missed it.....



Only if they were duped. If they are educated in the matter, or have other motivations for doing so, and are not taking out a second mortgage to pay for it, it's only stupid from a certain perspective. It may or may not be snake oil, depending on what they are buying.



Not trying to justify anything, not sure how you came to that conclusion. Nobody has said cables are irrelevant. The majority opinion and take home message is that multi-thousand dollar cables are not necessary to improving the sound quality, which is the goal in most of these cases, or so I would hope.
this post will never fly... it's reasoned and educated
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What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #88 of 244 Old 08-26-2018, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eljr View Post
How were you burnt?

emotiva XLR cable - frayed after a year and have horrible buzz
Monoprice Banana Plug - broke off x2. Once peg got stuck in the jack,
and was a pain to get out
Monoprice sub cable - once was super loose and would fall out without a touch. The other was super
right and feltlike if break the jack pushing it in or pulling it ou
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post #89 of 244 Old 08-26-2018, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Gabre View Post
Nobody said cables are irrelevant?

What does it mean then when someone is recommending cheap ass monoprice China crap cables. That to me means cables are irrelevant.

Cheap is never good. In anything. In any field. It can do okay, but there will be BETTER.

This is like when people buy expensive cars, but then don't care about what tires they put on, because, hey, those cheapo ones will roll as well and drive you from A to B.
But there is road noise, wet grip, dry grip, wear, etc etc.
But there WILL be noticeable difference between them.



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Your analogies are completely lame and baseless. You haven't a clue.
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post #90 of 244 Old 08-26-2018, 12:27 PM
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Prove me wrong.

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