How much pre-amp -> amp cables matter? - Page 5 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #121 of 244 Old 08-28-2018, 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by BpShenanigans View Post
I followed the link to the Blue Jeans Cable article. I read the article. I don't buy it! You can't believe everything you read. But, I'll believe my Uinversity Physics text (Sears, Zemanksy and Young) and Basic Electrical Engineering by Fitzgerald, Higgenbotham and Grabel. Neither book discusses the topics of capacitance or inductance in cables designed to be conductors. If charge is accumulating and dissipating (capacitance) in a cable, something is wrong. I'd have to say the same if the cable itself induced a potential difference. Why not take a theoretical cable and place a control volume over it coincident with the cable surface and apply the laws of conservation of energy and mass. That will give the correct answer. Mass in = mass out. Energy in = energy out. That simple.

If U want to dig into scientific data here is the math for calculating resistance, capacitance & inductance..

http://nepsi.com/resources/calculato...cable-data.htm

Just my $0.02...
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post #122 of 244 Old 08-28-2018, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by M Code View Post
If U want to dig into scientific data here is the math for calculating resistance, capacitance & inductance..

http://nepsi.com/resources/calculato...cable-data.htm

Just my $0.02...
Electronics and three phase power transmission are vastly different. What I stated for a single conductive strand, as in wiring within an amplifier, I stand behind. But, if your system operates at 34,500 Volts, it must truly be hair raising!

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post #123 of 244 Old 08-28-2018, 08:11 PM
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I think you guys need some information from people who have gear with the resolution to hear the differences in cables from power cables, analogue cables, digital cables, and speaker cables. Check out the AVS $20K Forum in Displays, The Absolute Sound, and Stereophile publications for people who have systems that can tell the difference in cables almost instantly. People actually listen to cable on this Forum and these publications, and report on them.
We did a system for a major music agent who has some the most famous artists in the business. I worked with a graduate electrical engineer on this job. He told me wire can't possibly make any difference. For the audio, digital and speaker cables we used an upper end company's cables which had active shielding. That is it had a third shield conductor connected on the source end only with a drain wire in the middle of cable for conduction. This shield was connected to a regulated 24V DC power supply.

When finished I had the electrical engineer sit down and listen to some music. He couldn't believe what he heard. Although he had designed many, many systems with generic cable due to his schooled belief, he had no idea what a difference cable can make in a fine system. He is now converted forever.

By the way, the OP has a very nice system, and he will definitely benefit from fine cables. I would suggest he request a home audition with his new amps, and the rest of his system. Regards, Norm

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post #124 of 244 Old 08-28-2018, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by BpShenanigans View Post
Electronics and three phase power transmission are vastly different. What I stated for a single conductive strand, as in wiring within an amplifier, I stand behind. But, if your system operates at 34,500 Volts, it must truly be hair raising!
Incorrect...
The basic math calculations for resistance, capacitance and inductance are the same regardless of wire conductor size, be it #1 gauge for a high power cable or #1 4 gauge for an audio cable...
Capacitance occurs between any two conductors separated by an insulator. In an audio cable, capacitance occurs between the cable's two conductors. Capacitance also occurs between the cable's conductors and any nearby conductive objects, including house wiring and damp foundation concrete. So these capacitances are summed together, note that audio signals are alternating current and so are attenuated by such capacitances. Attenuation occurs in direct proportion to frequency: a higher frequency can more easily leak through a given capacitance. The amount of attenuation can be calculated for any given frequency; the result is called the capacitive reactance, which is an effective resistance measured in ohms.

Note that for the voltage on a speaker wire depends on amplifier power; for a 100-watt-per-channel amplifier, the voltage will be about 30 volts RMS. @ 30V RMS, a 1 percent loss will occur at 3,000 ohms or less of capacitive reactance. Therefore, to keep audible (up to 20,000 Hz) losses below 1 percent, the total capacitance in the cabling must be kept below about 2,700 pF. Ordinary lamp cord which is #1 8 gauge parallel has a capacitance of 10–20 pF per foot, plus a few picofarads of stray capacitance, so a 50-foot run (100 total feet of conductor) will have l< than 1 percent capacitive loss in the audible range. However, some esoteric speaker cables have a higher capacitance in order to have lower inductance; typically this is 100–300 pF. In which case the capacitive loss will exceed 1 percent for runs longer than about 5 feet (10 feet of conductor).
Regarding inductance, all conductors have this, which is calculated by its inherent resistance to changes in current. That resistance is called inductive reactance, measured in ohms. Inductive reactance depends on how quickly the current is changing. Quick changes in current such as in high frequencies can revise to a higher inductive reactance than those for slow changes low frequencies can. Since audio signals are alternating current and thus are attenuated by inductance.

Just my $0.02...
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post #125 of 244 Old 08-28-2018, 08:28 PM
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A very interesting model that does not apply to spaeker wire or interconnects!






I say that the above model of a transmission line is far too complex for the short lengths of speaker wire and interconnects found in home audio systems. Although the model may be used to obfuscate matters when it comes to speaker wire and such. Follow these links and you'll see why: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmission_line, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Characteristic_impedance, and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telegrapher%27s_equations .



Notice that in the last article linked values for inductance and capacitance are given per 1000 ft or kilometer.

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post #126 of 244 Old 08-28-2018, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by tyree91 View Post
I think you guys need some information from people who have gear with the resolution to hear the differences in cables from power cables, analogue cables, digital cables, and speaker cables. Check out the AVS $20K Forum in Displays, The Absolute Sound, and Stereophile publications for people who have systems that can tell the difference in cables almost instantly. People actually listen to cable on this Forum and these publications, and report on them.
We did a system for a major music agent who has some the most famous artists in the business. I worked with a graduate electrical engineer on this job. He told me wire can't possibly make any difference. For the audio, digital and speaker cables we used an upper end company's cables which had active shielding. That is it had a third shield conductor connected on the source end only with a drain wire in the middle of cable for conduction. This shield was connected to a regulated 24V DC power supply.

When finished I had the electrical engineer sit down and listen to some music. He couldn't believe what he heard. Although he had designed many, many systems with generic cable due to his schooled belief, he had no idea what a difference cable can make in a fine system. He is now converted forever.

By the way, the OP has a very nice system, and he will definitely benefit from fine cables. I would suggest he request a home audition with his new amps, and the rest of his system. Regards, Norm
Would you care to share the particulars of your business?

I don't think that the moderators would ding you for that.
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post #127 of 244 Old 08-28-2018, 09:51 PM
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Not much basic about differential equations to me and years ago I solved a few. One might want to study the model for a transmission line more closely so as to not make the mistake of doubling cord length to get conductor length.
The length of the model is from one port to the other, not twice the length, as below:






Let me quote from the article, "In the simplest case, the network is assumed to be linear (i.e. the complex voltage across either port is proportional to the complex current flowing into it when there are no reflections), and the two ports are assumed to be interchangeable. If the transmission line is uniform along its length, then its behaviour is largely described by a single parameter called the characteristic impedance, symbol Z0. This is the ratio of the complex voltage of a given wave to the complex current of the same wave at any point on the line. Typical values of Z0 are 50 or 75 ohms for a coaxial cable, about 100 ohms for a twisted pair of wires, and about 300 ohms for a common type of untwisted pair used in radio transmission."
The equation for Zo is independent of length.



Also the transmission line model which folks are using to model speaker wire, is valid not for audio frequency but radio frequency. The transmission line model has special cases which simplify to wire. Read the article on transmission lines in Wikipedia. I guess that would be the wiki.

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post #128 of 244 Old 08-28-2018, 10:53 PM
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Originally Posted by tyree91 View Post
I think you guys need some information from people who have gear with the resolution to hear the differences in cables from power cables, analogue cables, digital cables, and speaker cables. Check out the AVS $20K Forum in Displays, The Absolute Sound, and Stereophile publications for people who have systems that can tell the difference in cables almost instantly. People actually listen to cable on this Forum and these publications, and report on them.
We did a system for a major music agent who has some the most famous artists in the business. I worked with a graduate electrical engineer on this job. He told me wire can't possibly make any difference. For the audio, digital and speaker cables we used an upper end company's cables which had active shielding. That is it had a third shield conductor connected on the source end only with a drain wire in the middle of cable for conduction. This shield was connected to a regulated 24V DC power supply.

When finished I had the electrical engineer sit down and listen to some music. He couldn't believe what he heard. Although he had designed many, many systems with generic cable due to his schooled belief, he had no idea what a difference cable can make in a fine system. He is now converted forever.

By the way, the OP has a very nice system, and he will definitely benefit from fine cables. I would suggest he request a home audition with his new amps, and the rest of his system. Regards, Norm
What nonsense. Read the conversation here
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/86-ul...able-test.html

about high quality system, $1 mil, and cable differences between 12 ga monster and $30k speaker wire. The listener gave up as he could not detect the difference.

But, if you are happy with those rags and your belief engine about cable, enjoy. And, when you can demonstrate your listening prowess under level matched DBT, then we might have further discussions.
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post #129 of 244 Old 08-28-2018, 11:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tyree91 View Post
I think you guys need some information from people who have gear with the resolution to hear the differences in cables from power cables, analogue cables, digital cables, and speaker cables. Check out the AVS $20K Forum in Displays, The Absolute Sound, and Stereophile publications for people who have systems that can tell the difference in cables almost instantly. People actually listen to cable on this Forum and these publications, and report on them.
We did a system for a major music agent who has some the most famous artists in the business. I worked with a graduate electrical engineer on this job. He told me wire can't possibly make any difference. For the audio, digital and speaker cables we used an upper end company's cables which had active shielding. That is it had a third shield conductor connected on the source end only with a drain wire in the middle of cable for conduction. This shield was connected to a regulated 24V DC power supply.

When finished I had the electrical engineer sit down and listen to some music. He couldn't believe what he heard. Although he had designed many, many systems with generic cable due to his schooled belief, he had no idea what a difference cable can make in a fine system. He is now converted forever.

By the way, the OP has a very nice system, and he will definitely benefit from fine cables. I would suggest he request a home audition with his new amps, and the rest of his system. Regards, Norm
Follow this link tyree91:https://gizmodo.com/305549/james-ran...les-are-better .

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post #130 of 244 Old 08-29-2018, 05:48 AM
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Originally Posted by tyree91 View Post
I think you guys need some information from people who have gear with the resolution to hear the differences in cables from power cables, analogue cables, digital cables, and speaker cables. Check out the AVS $20K Forum in Displays, The Absolute Sound, and Stereophile publications for people who have systems that can tell the difference in cables almost instantly. People actually listen to cable on this Forum and these publications, and report on them.
We did a system for a major music agent who has some the most famous artists in the business. I worked with a graduate electrical engineer on this job. He told me wire can't possibly make any difference. For the audio, digital and speaker cables we used an upper end company's cables which had active shielding. That is it had a third shield conductor connected on the source end only with a drain wire in the middle of cable for conduction. This shield was connected to a regulated 24V DC power supply.

When finished I had the electrical engineer sit down and listen to some music. He couldn't believe what he heard. Although he had designed many, many systems with generic cable due to his schooled belief, he had no idea what a difference cable can make in a fine system. He is now converted forever.

By the way, the OP has a very nice system, and he will definitely benefit from fine cables. I would suggest he request a home audition with his new amps, and the rest of his system. Regards, Norm

Just what would qualify as a system refined enough to hear cable differences?

Would a system consisting of only a CD player, amp and speakers valued at north of $25,000 qualify, for example?

Or does each component need to cost $20,000 to qualify?

thanks

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post #131 of 244 Old 08-29-2018, 06:58 AM
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I would like to applaud Selden Ball for his first comment made to the OP here. He said, "This is a topic which can cause flamewars." Now, on the 130 something post on this particular thread, here we are.

I posted earlier that I am skeptical of the inherent value in the esoteric interconnect market, but I buy "middle of the road" cables for my audio needs. I have more Audio Quest and brand name connectors than not. There is a strange defense here of spending absorb-anent amounts of money on interconnects when the subject of how much is too much for a particular piece of audio equipment goes practically unnoticed. The subject of discussion to me ends with shielding deployment, while the stranded vs solid wires in a connector is less important to the final quality of the sound energy at the terminal end of said interconnect.

Have fun enjoying another flame-war where there are engineers and audio aficionados duking it out along theoretical/applicable discussions. It happens every time with these discussions about these cables, and is usually non stop. That is until the thread gets way too long and shut down by a moderator as it devolves into a battle over who can last the longest in their quest to get their point across.

Myself, having an EE degree from the early 80's, I will just sit back and watch, while listening through my "middle of the road' cables, pondering the question of whether I paid too much, or not enough for them.
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post #132 of 244 Old 08-29-2018, 09:37 AM
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If you're spending that amount on the hardware your dealer should gladly allow you to try out some cables at home. First, the new amp, speakers, and other components need a break-in period. Use just the basic, standard cables supplied in the boxes with the components to begin with. Choose a sound source that can play continuously; maybe a streaming music service, a long playlist of music ripped to a hard drive, etc. Play the system at low volume for at least a couple of hundred hours, occasionally turning the volume level up to medium or above. Basically, leave it on all day while you're at work or all night, or both. After the break-in period, spend at least half a dozen listening sessions where you are sitting and really listening without distractions to a lot of your favorite music at volume settings you enjoy. This will ensure that you become intimately familiar with how the system plays the music. After that, you're ready to insert some Transparent or other fancy cables into the system in place of the standard cables and give them a try. Be sure the dealer let's you borrow his demo cables if possible because they, too, have been through a break-in period at the store. If you follow these steps you will definitely discover if the Transparent items are worth while for your ears, your music, on your system in your room.
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post #133 of 244 Old 08-29-2018, 09:43 AM
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it devolves into a battle over who can last the longest in their quest to get their point across.
talking about battles...
the point is, some people "fight" by arguing with physical facts and the others using blanks

anybody who enjoys looking at his cables should feel free to buy the best looking ones he can get, no matter how expensive they are. Maybe in his mind the music even sounds better just because he is so satisfied with the look of the new cables.
but nobody should think it REALLY sounds better, that's self deception...
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post #134 of 244 Old 08-29-2018, 09:59 AM
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If you're spending that amount on the hardware your dealer should gladly allow you to try out some cables at home. First, the new amp, speakers, and other components need a break-in period. Use just the basic, standard cables supplied in the boxes with the components to begin with. Choose a sound source that can play continuously; maybe a streaming music service, a long playlist of music ripped to a hard drive, etc. Play the system at low volume for at least a couple of hundred hours, occasionally turning the volume level up to medium or above. Basically, leave it on all day while you're at work or all night, or both. After the break-in period, spend at least half a dozen listening sessions where you are sitting and really listening without distractions to a lot of your favorite music at volume settings you enjoy. This will ensure that you become intimately familiar with how the system plays the music. After that, you're ready to insert some Transparent or other fancy cables into the system in place of the standard cables and give them a try. Be sure the dealer let's you borrow his demo cables if possible because they, too, have been through a break-in period at the store. If you follow these steps you will definitely discover if the Transparent items are worth while for your ears, your music, on your system in your room.
"they, too, have been through a break-in period at the store" really come on, a cable does not have a "break in" period. The only difference from a brand new and a months or years old cable is the possibility of corrosion in the older cable from exposure to the elements.
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post #135 of 244 Old 08-29-2018, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Mickey Mouse View Post
talking about battles...
the point is, some people "fight" by arguing with physical facts and the others using blanks

anybody who enjoys looking at his cables should feel free to buy the best looking ones he can get, no matter how expensive they are. Maybe in his mind the music even sounds better just because he is so satisfied with the look of the new cables.
but nobody should think it REALLY sounds better, that's self deception...
You brought up a point that has been overlooked, for the most part in this thread. I like to appreciate the looks of my equipment as much as anyone else. I find that inexpensive cables wrapped in a great looking sleeve are somehow worth more than blaise dull black rubber ones. If I could just find some cables that are RGB capable that I can configure to light up along with the temp of the music, or the mood I am in at the time, it would be nirvana. Of course I an being sarcastic here.

I do appreciate quality, in the looks of the products I purchase, as well as the way they are made and implemented for their desired usage. I think the package wrapper is as important as the component it is wrapping. A well designed product has eye catching appeal as well as the overall package value to the consumer. If the cables are not of high quality, they will sell more than the same cable wrapped in a standard packaging without any flair. I bought some speaker cables in the 80's that had clear insulation so that the shiny copper was visible, and I found that to be attractive. That is until ten years later when the copper turned jet black because of oxidation. The cable I use now is an Audio Quest X2 that has an opaque grayish colored jacket on it. It was as middle of the road as I wanted to go at the time I purchased them, and I have no regrets. The allure is that they are oxygen free copper conductors that will never turn black due to deterioration due to oxidation breakdown. I guess I'll never know.

In all seriousness, the overall looks of a product is very important to most consumers these days, as the hype of the appearance of products is more important than ever these days. Unfortunately, you pay more for that feature.

Case in point, TITANIUM! Have you ever noticed that the trend now is to use the word "titanium" to describe the metallic color of a product, even when there is no actual titanium in the product at all? It's very confusing to see the description of a color, match that of a premium metal that is nowhere to be found in said product. That is the opposite of describing the "brushed aluminum" finish some people use to describe a Surface Pro when in fact the material is a much more sought after (and expensive) magnesium.
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post #136 of 244 Old 08-29-2018, 10:19 AM
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What nonsense. Read the conversation here
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/86-ul...able-test.html

about high quality system, $1 mil, and cable differences between 12 ga monster and $30k speaker wire. The listener gave up as he could not detect the difference.

But, if you are happy with those rags and your belief engine about cable, enjoy. And, when you can demonstrate your listening prowess under level matched DBT, then we might have further discussions.
You're trying to persuade someone whose livelihood depends on selling high-end gear that most of his claims about quality are nonsense? Good luck with that.
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post #137 of 244 Old 08-29-2018, 11:45 AM
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"they, too, have been through a break-in period at the store" really come on, a cable does not have a "break in" period. The only difference from a brand new and a months or years old cable is the possibility of corrosion in the older cable from exposure to the elements.
Actually, if you magnify new, stranded wire sufficiently to observe its molecular structure you will observe that there is no particular orientation or pattern to the grouping of said molecules. Send a signal through the wire from an amplifier to a speaker for several hundred hours then observe the wire once again through the microscope. You will see that the molecules have become oriented in a clear pattern, i.e. the wire has become, in audio parlance, "directional".
Some audio cables include passive networks with several electronic components embedded in them. These components' electrical characteristics alter slightly over their first few hundred hours of use.
The relevance of these minute changes may be debated or dismissed, as it pleases you. In the end, what matters is whether a particular set of cables enhances your enjoyment of the music and whether you deem them to be worth the cost. If you don't enjoy the music more, or you don't judge they represent good value then stick with what you've got.
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post #138 of 244 Old 08-29-2018, 11:55 AM
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Actually, if you magnify new, stranded wire sufficiently to observe its molecular structure you will observe that there is no particular orientation or pattern to the grouping of said molecules. Send a signal through the wire from an amplifier to a speaker for several hundred hours then observe the wire once again through the microscope. You will see that the molecules have become oriented in a clear pattern,
Let's now hear your explanation why photographs of this don't exist.
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post #139 of 244 Old 08-29-2018, 12:20 PM
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Actually, if you magnify new, stranded wire sufficiently to observe its molecular structure you will observe that there is no particular orientation or pattern to the grouping of said molecules. Send a signal through the wire from an amplifier to a speaker for several hundred hours then observe the wire once again through the microscope. You will see that the molecules have become oriented in a clear pattern, i.e. the wire has become, in audio parlance, "directional".
Some audio cables include passive networks with several electronic components embedded in them. These components' electrical characteristics alter slightly over their first few hundred hours of use.
The relevance of these minute changes may be debated or dismissed, as it pleases you. In the end, what matters is whether a particular set of cables enhances your enjoyment of the music and whether you deem them to be worth the cost. If you don't enjoy the music more, or you don't judge they represent good value then stick with what you've got.
Hmmm..
Very interesting..
Since a molecule or a compound is usually made of hydrogen (H) and oxygen (O) atoms. Could U pls clarify what type of chemical bonding is used..
My understanding is that there are two main types of chemical bonds that hold atoms together:
  • Covalent
  • Ionic/electrovalent bonds

Which one is better for audio applications and electron flow....

Thanks..

Just my $0.02..
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Arrange a blind A/B test in the showroom with the same amp, indentical speakers and inexpensive/ Transparent cables. The salesman picks over 10 tests. If he gets them right you buy the cables. If not the equipment is on the house. If there is as much difference as they say it will be easy for the salesman. Enjoy your free amp.
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post #141 of 244 Old 08-29-2018, 12:26 PM
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Rotel amps - $8k? I need to sell mine!!


I never noticed any difference between cables to mine. Money better spent upgrading speakers with that $2200. That's something you CAN tell a difference in.
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post #142 of 244 Old 08-29-2018, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by TornadoTJ View Post
Rotel amps - $8k? I need to sell mine!!


I never noticed any difference between cables to mine. Money better spent upgrading speakers with that $2200. That's something you CAN tell a difference in.
The lack of scientific knowledge displayed on this thread is remarkable.

[edit..this came out as a quote but I wasn’t referring to what was quoted]
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post #143 of 244 Old 08-29-2018, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by southleft View Post
Actually, if you magnify new, stranded wire sufficiently to observe its molecular structure you will observe that there is no particular orientation or pattern to the grouping of said molecules. Send a signal through the wire from an amplifier to a speaker for several hundred hours then observe the wire once again through the microscope. You will see that the molecules have become oriented in a clear pattern, i.e. the wire has become, in audio parlance, "directional".
(snip)
Interesting. Cable manufacturers analyze their products with electron microscopes? (An optical microscope won't be of much use for seeing individual atoms.) Or are you referring to crystallites, which have much larger scale order? (I have no idea whether those exist in copper wire.) Audioquest et al must be a lot higher tech than I could imagine.
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post #144 of 244 Old 08-29-2018, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by markmanner View Post
The lack of scientific knowledge displayed on this thread is remarkable.

[edit..this came out as a quote but I wasn’t referring to what was quoted]

It's all good, I knew what you were saying. At least it's entertaining, for a while anyway.
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post #145 of 244 Old 08-29-2018, 12:56 PM
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Arrange a blind A/B test in the showroom with the same amp, indentical speakers and inexpensive/ Transparent cables. The salesman picks over 10 tests.
you underestimate the "fantasy" of these people
they can't tell the differences under these stressful conditions of a blinded test, though they are definitely there and "under usual conditions" more than noticeable, but just right under these conditions unfortunately NOT...
Of course that doesn't mean these differences doesn't exist, they do! But the environment (equipment, source material, speakers, room...) or the "mood" is not sufficient for a viable comparison.
Either the switch should be done between two tracks or just right in the middle of a track or...
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post #146 of 244 Old 08-29-2018, 02:20 PM
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Interesting. Cable manufacturers analyze their products with electron microscopes? (An optical microscope won't be of much use for seeing individual atoms.) Or are you referring to crystallites, which have much larger scale order? (I have no idea whether those exist in copper wire.) Audioquest et al must be a lot higher tech than I could imagine.
Funny you should mention Audioquest. Several decades ago at a hi-fi store in England we used to demo various speaker cables for customers and other interested parties. First, we determined a speaker preference for the listener either by asking or listening to their chosen music selections. Stock 14-gauge speaker wire of 10-ft. length with soldered-on banana plugs were our default connection. When the listener felt they were ready we would change to a different set of speaker wires of the same length and same make of soldered-on plugs. When stock 14-gauge was compared to Audioquest the customers who favored rock, pop, or jazz mostly preferred Audioquest, saying the music sounded brighter and crisper. Classical and opera lovers mostly demurred, saying the Audioquest made violins and voices sound edgy and/or shrill. (We were able to change cables without the listener knowing which cable was in use, and we remained out of their line of sight while the music was playing.) Another comparison between stock 14-gauge and AudioTechnica 12-gauge boasting "High purity Copper" construction produced different results. In this comparison nearly all listeners preferred the 12-gauge, saying the sound was richer and smoother with better defined bass. These comparisons took place over several years with a wide variety of listeners both young and old. The results are neither scientific nor definitive, but they helped many people decide whether to explore higher price cables or simply stick with trusty, stock 14-gauge. Worth noting is the fact that many people chose to spend 1 pound sterling per foot for the Audiotechnica wire instead of the totally free stock 14-gauge. The point here is that science and engineering notwithstanding, if it sounds good and you can afford it, you have a reasonable basis for making a choice.
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post #147 of 244 Old 08-29-2018, 02:31 PM
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Just what would qualify as a system refined enough to hear cable differences?

...
One needs a much better hearing acumen that just doesn't exist from evolution. Unless, of course there is something grossly wrong with the wire or gauge difference.
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post #148 of 244 Old 08-29-2018, 02:39 PM
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You're trying to persuade someone whose livelihood depends on selling high-end gear that most of his claims about quality are nonsense? Good luck with that.
I don't try to convince just call nonsense where it fits. Very hard to change a belief system in people no matter the subject. Audio didn't corner the market on that.
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post #149 of 244 Old 08-29-2018, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by southleft View Post
Funny you should mention Audioquest. Several decades ago at a hi-fi store in England we used to demo various speaker cables for customers and other interested parties. First, we determined a speaker preference for the listener either by asking or listening to their chosen music selections. Stock 14-gauge speaker wire of 10-ft. length with soldered-on banana plugs were our default connection. When the listener felt they were ready we would change to a different set of speaker wires of the same length and same make of soldered-on plugs. When stock 14-gauge was compared to Audioquest the customers who favored rock, pop, or jazz mostly preferred Audioquest, saying the music sounded brighter and crisper. Classical and opera lovers mostly demurred, saying the Audioquest made violins and voices sound edgy and/or shrill. (We were able to change cables without the listener knowing which cable was in use, and we remained out of their line of sight while the music was playing.) Another comparison between stock 14-gauge and AudioTechnica 12-gauge boasting "High purity Copper" construction produced different results. In this comparison nearly all listeners preferred the 12-gauge, saying the sound was richer and smoother with better defined bass. These comparisons took place over several years with a wide variety of listeners both young and old. The results are neither scientific nor definitive, but they helped many people decide whether to explore higher price cables or simply stick with trusty, stock 14-gauge. Worth noting is the fact that many people chose to spend 1 pound sterling per foot for the Audiotechnica wire instead of the totally free stock 14-gauge. The point here is that science and engineering notwithstanding, if it sounds good and you can afford it, you have a reasonable basis for making a choice.
There really is no end to this, and like most every version of a thread of the same topic, the mods will probably end up locking it. Its been shown time and again that with properly gauged and terminated cable there is no difference that %99 of the public can discern. But those who support the use of high end cable can never be convinced otherwise, the argument will go round and round forever.
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post #150 of 244 Old 08-29-2018, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by southleft View Post
Actually, if you magnify new, stranded wire sufficiently to observe its molecular structure you will observe that there is no particular orientation or pattern to the grouping of said molecules. Send a signal through the wire from an amplifier to a speaker for several hundred hours then observe the wire once again through the microscope. You will see that the molecules have become oriented in a clear pattern, i.e. the wire has become, in audio parlance, "directional".
Some audio cables include passive networks with several electronic components embedded in them. These components' electrical characteristics alter slightly over their first few hundred hours of use.
The relevance of these minute changes may be debated or dismissed, as it pleases you. In the end, what matters is whether a particular set of cables enhances your enjoyment of the music and whether you deem them to be worth the cost. If you don't enjoy the music more, or you don't judge they represent good value then stick with what you've got.
Directional? Really? Where did that nonsense come from? Where is the evidence?
How about sending a DC current through that wire, will that create a direction in the cable atoms and molecules? How much energy is required to alter the atomic structure of copper wire?
Doe it become more directional or less directional with different music? Which ones? How much change?
Isn't the signal AC? How can that create directional atoms and molecules?

Unless, of course you post was a joke.
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