How much pre-amp -> amp cables matter? - Page 6 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #151 of 244 Old 08-29-2018, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by liffie420 View Post
Its been shown time and again that with properly gauged and terminated cable there is no difference that %99 of the public can discern.
I disagree. . . It is 100%.
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post #152 of 244 Old 08-29-2018, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Mickey Mouse View Post
talking about battles...
the point is, some people "fight" by arguing with physical facts and the others using blanks

anybody who enjoys looking at his cables should feel free to buy the best looking ones he can get, no matter how expensive they are. Maybe in his mind the music even sounds better just because he is so satisfied with the look of the new cables.
but nobody should think it REALLY sounds better, that's self deception...
What makes you right in this? That you can't tell the difference, and we should use you as reference and authority? Because you have proof of some sort?

Or you are just trolling?

And the best is members that brag around with their electrical degrees and other BS, and that should automatically make them some badass authority?

Or these members that are in their late 50-60-70s saying that can't hear difference. They r lucky to hear at all.





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post #153 of 244 Old 08-29-2018, 03:22 PM
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some people are able to intellectually understand physical basics, others are able to hear differences where no differences are
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post #154 of 244 Old 08-29-2018, 04:11 PM
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Again, that is your opinion, which is just different from others.

You need to convince me better then that.

I will go back again, why would then amplifier make difference? Cause I heard that all amplifiers are same too.

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post #155 of 244 Old 08-29-2018, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Gabre View Post
Again, that is your opinion, which is just different from others.

You need to convince me better then that.

I will go back again, why would then amplifier make difference? Cause I heard that all amplifiers are same too.

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Firstly, what evidence will you accept?

He is not claiming to be the authority to all there is. Others use past published double blind testing to come to the conclusion of no differences.

You, on the other hand, from the looks, have not tried to do you comparisons in a double blind test. Anything less, like a sighted test is, well totally unreliable to arrive at small differences.
Same with the amp difference. And, certainly not all amps sound the same but most well designed ones are.
In the end, you do not need to accept any of this and just follow your beliefs.

Last edited by CharlesJ; 08-29-2018 at 04:23 PM.
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post #156 of 244 Old 08-29-2018, 04:23 PM
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Same works for u disbelievers

I did my comparisons and difference is completely obvious, and I'm talking cheap monoprice/micca vs. Generic 12awg shielded fancy cable for 200

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post #157 of 244 Old 08-29-2018, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Gabre View Post
Same works for u disbelievers

I did my comparisons and difference is completely obvious, and I'm talking cheap monoprice/micca vs. Generic 12awg shielded fancy cable for 200

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Obviously your listening protocol is biased in your favor. You really need to do double blind testing, the truth teller test method.
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post #158 of 244 Old 08-29-2018, 04:36 PM
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Omg, I could literally record how obvious it is.


I am actually disappointed, as I thought members here are audiophiles and are able to notice small details, notice differences in music, be able to analyze a being critical to their systems and realizing their drawbacks l and places for improvement.

My point was, don't buy cheap ass cables, invest 100-200 bucks in a pair of decent cables.

But under no circumstances I would recommend spending ridiculous amounts on cables.



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post #159 of 244 Old 08-29-2018, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Gabre View Post
Omg, I could literally record how obvious it is.
I am actually disappointed, as I thought members here are audiophiles and are able to notice small details, notice differences in music, be able to analyze a being critical to their systems and realizing their drawbacks l and places for improvement.

...
I am sure you could record who know what. But, my question was what evidence will you accept?
Be disappointed. I am not. I try not to fall for hearsay claims be it audio or whatever. I don't obsess with the inaudible stuff and try to imagine things.
I rather like the truth teller methodology before spending any money.
As I said though, you are free to do and rely on beliefs instead of knowing. Matters not to me but when testable claims are posted, I tend to challenge.
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post #160 of 244 Old 08-29-2018, 05:27 PM
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This topic is hilarious.

Let's open topic about how all amplifiers sound the same. Cause you can't measure that either. It's in the ear of the owner.

So I will ask you, how many did you change in your life and why.

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post #161 of 244 Old 08-29-2018, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by CharlesJ View Post
Directional? Really? Where did that nonsense come from? Where is the evidence?
How about sending a DC current through that wire, will that create a direction in the cable atoms and molecules? How much energy is required to alter the atomic structure of copper wire?
Doe it become more directional or less directional with different music? Which ones? How much change?
Isn't the signal AC? How can that create directional atoms and molecules?

Unless, of course you post was a joke.
Heavy metal music produces the greatest directionality in the wire. Of course, it must be played very loud, and Led Zeppelin often out-directions Metallica and other pretenders.
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post #162 of 244 Old 08-29-2018, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by liffie420 View Post
There really is no end to this, and like most every version of a thread of the same topic, the mods will probably end up locking it. Its been shown time and again that with properly gauged and terminated cable there is no difference that %99 of the public can discern. But those who support the use of high end cable can never be convinced otherwise, the argument will go round and round forever.
None of the cables I mentioned were high-end. As for double-blind testing, it's largely bull****. Placing a listener in an unfamiliar room, with strangers, in a potentially stressful can-you-reliably-tell-the-difference situation is ridiculous. The best way to evaluate any link in the chain of music reproduction is in your favorite chair, in your favorite room, at your favorite time, listening extensively to your favorite music over several sessions. There is no better way to evaluate hardware, cables, or, for that matter, recorded music.
The other completely frivolous assertion is the importance of hearing a difference. You can't buy a difference, and you certainly won't be sitting at home listening to a difference. You'll be listening to music, the whole thing, not a difference. If you like what you hear then go for it, enjoy it. If not, forget it. And, the fact that someone expresses a preference for one rendering of sound where you perceive they are, to all intents and purposes, identical does not mean that he is a gullible fool any more than it means you're hard of hearing. It's simply personal perception, personal enjoyment, personal choice.
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post #163 of 244 Old 08-29-2018, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Gabre View Post
This topic is hilarious.

Let's open topic about how all amplifiers sound the same. Cause you can't measure that either. It's in the ear of the owner.

So I will ask you, how many did you change in your life and why.

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It is not up to me to show differences or what I have or how many times I changed gear or whatever.
You made testable claims. You were challenged and no credible supportive evidence provided.
Yes, it is hilarious.

You should read the link and open Steve Maki's post( probably directly above the person where the link opens.)
A yam integrated costs about $400 compared to Pass Aleph 1.2 monoblocks costing about $15k each
https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=...M/oCIVassb2T8J

3 people could not differentiate the two amps. and Steve was a golden ear.

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post #164 of 244 Old 08-29-2018, 07:44 PM
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Consider

If you're handy at all, and get satisfaction from a job well done, go d.i.y.
Get some quality components, a decent soldering iron, and spend some time improving your setup.
You get excellent wires at custom lengths (you can even go angled connectors if appropriate).

It's not for everybody but you do get 'bragging rights' when you're done. 👌
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post #165 of 244 Old 08-29-2018, 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by southleft View Post
None of the cables I mentioned were high-end. As for double-blind testing, it's largely bull****. Placing a listener in an unfamiliar room, with strangers, in a potentially stressful can-you-reliably-tell-the-difference situation is ridiculous. The best way to evaluate any link in the chain of music reproduction is in your favorite chair, in your favorite room, at your favorite time, listening extensively to your favorite music over several sessions. There is no better way to evaluate hardware, cables, or, for that matter, recorded music.
The other completely frivolous assertion is the importance of hearing a difference. You can't buy a difference, and you certainly won't be sitting at home listening to a difference. You'll be listening to music, the whole thing, not a difference. If you like what you hear then go for it, enjoy it. If not, forget it. And, the fact that someone expresses a preference for one rendering of sound where you perceive they are, to all intents and purposes, identical does not mean that he is a gullible fool any more than it means you're hard of hearing. It's simply personal perception, personal enjoyment, personal choice.
I find the assertion that double-blind testing is “stressful” to be ridiculous. Performing open heart surgery is stressful. Being pulled over by the police and not knowing why is stressful. Participating in a DBT designed to evaluate whether one can hear a difference between cables or components is hardly a “stressful” situation.
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post #166 of 244 Old 08-29-2018, 07:59 PM
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As for double-blind testing, it's largely bull****. Placing a listener in an unfamiliar room, with strangers, in a potentially stressful can-you-reliably-tell-the-difference situation is ridiculous.
I know what you mean because I have a similar situation with people not believing I can levitate. Not much, just a foot or so, but the thing is I can't do it under the stress of having other people in the room.

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The best way to evaluate any link in the chain of music reproduction is in your favorite chair, in your favorite room, at your favorite time, listening extensively to your favorite music over several sessions. . .
. . . looking at the faceplate and remembering exactly how much it cost. All these blind tests which erase that last part are obviously nothing but a bunch of hooey just meant to confuse people with their ears alone. When we attend a symphony do we use just our ears? Of course not.

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The other completely frivolous assertion is the importance of hearing a difference.
Just because people can't hear a difference between two things doesn't prove the more expensive one, which is sold under the premise that it sounds better, is in any way deceiving the public.
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In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original master, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".
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post #167 of 244 Old 08-29-2018, 08:06 PM
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Participating in a DBT designed to evaluate whether one can hear a difference between cables or components is hardly a “stressful” situation.
Unless you are emotionally or financially invested in the outcome.
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post #168 of 244 Old 08-29-2018, 08:08 PM
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The other completely frivolous assertion is the importance of hearing a difference.
I thought that [hearing a difference] was the crux of the whole debate.
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post #169 of 244 Old 08-29-2018, 08:23 PM
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Unless you are emotionally or financially invested in the outcome.
Here's the trick way i get around this one when I run blind tests as bets to make money:

Give the listener favorable odds. If they win and can show that they can hear a difference they win twice as much money from me as I collect from them if they can't hear a difference. 2 to 1 odds in their favor. They love that: it puts them at ease and it also sets them up to answer "Yes", eagerly, to the following question:

"We are now ready to begin. Do you agree that all the conditions of the test are fully to your satisfaction and that you are comfortable, relaxed, and ready to proceed with the test to settle the bet?"

I film this exchange openly (say with my cellphone) so they can't later make claims they said the conditions weren't OK or that they weren't ready and in a good frame of mind to carry out the test.
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post #170 of 244 Old 08-30-2018, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by southleft View Post
None of the cables I mentioned were high-end. As for double-blind testing, it's largely bull****. Placing a listener in an unfamiliar room, with strangers, in a potentially stressful can-you-reliably-tell-the-difference situation is ridiculous. The best way to evaluate any link in the chain of music reproduction is in your favorite chair, in your favorite room, at your favorite time, listening extensively to your favorite music over several sessions. There is no better way to evaluate hardware, cables, or, for that matter, recorded music.
The other completely frivolous assertion is the importance of hearing a difference. You can't buy a difference, and you certainly won't be sitting at home listening to a difference. You'll be listening to music, the whole thing, not a difference. If you like what you hear then go for it, enjoy it. If not, forget it. And, the fact that someone expresses a preference for one rendering of sound where you perceive they are, to all intents and purposes, identical does not mean that he is a gullible fool any more than it means you're hard of hearing. It's simply personal perception, personal enjoyment, personal choice.
Calling expensive cables snake oil isn't a personal choice, its been proven multiple times in double blind testing, which is the only testing that is TRULY objective. If you want to do it in your own room with your own equipment and have someone run the test that's fine. But it is a PROVE FACT, that price affects enjoyment and favorability, and not only when it comes to speaker cable. IT has been proven multiple times that for instance you take a say $10 dollar bottle of wine, and pour it into an empty bottle of a $200 bottle wine, and people will say the "$200 wine" tastes better than the exact same wine in the $10 bottle. Electrically speaking its impossible for a cable to affect the final sound. As long as you are using pure copper and the cables are terminated properly the cable is nothing but an electrical path allowing electrons to move from atom to atom down the length. They are not directional nor can they be MADE that way, and the fact that you can say this:

"Heavy metal music produces the greatest directionality in the wire. Of course, it must be played very loud, and Led Zeppelin often out-directions Metallica and other pretenders."

With a straight face fully and completely NEGATES anything you have to say on the matter, period end of story. The absurdity of that statement would be funny if it wasn't for the fact that you believe that tripe.
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post #171 of 244 Old 08-30-2018, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Gabre View Post
My point was, don't buy cheap ass cables, invest 100-200 bucks in a pair of decent cables.

But under no circumstances I would recommend spending ridiculous amounts on cables.
I think that is reasonable enough!

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As for double-blind testing, it's largely bull****.
Shhhhh!!! Don't tell the scientific community.....

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If you're handy at all, and get satisfaction from a job well done, go d.i.y.
Get some quality components, a decent soldering iron, and spend some time improving your setup.
You get excellent wires at custom lengths (you can even go angled connectors if appropriate).

It's not for everybody but you do get 'bragging rights' when you're done. 👌
Been there, done that! I thought it was actually a lot of fun, inexpensive (yet high quality terminations and wire), and everything is right-sized and angled (where it made sense). Helps keep the spaghetti factory thing to a minimum......well, that and velcro......

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post #172 of 244 Old 08-30-2018, 08:42 AM
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*snip* As for double-blind testing, it's largely bull****. *snip*
Yeah, you know all the advances in medicine that we've had which use DBT and placebo are just bull. We should just all discount the sciences that have increased our average life expectancy drastically over the last several hundred years -- hooey, I say! In fact, I think we should revert to our old ways...it'd help with the population "problem".

Humans listen with our brains and our ears, the former is exceptionally fallible and the latter isn't exactly a precision instrument (especially as we age). If one can hear a difference between wires then one set of them is severely crippled (way undersized for the length of the run) or it's acting like an EQ by design (which isn't a wire I'd want to buy). Anything else is in the listener's head. Failure to admit that is failure to accept physics and psychology -- a trait that is unfortunately becoming more prevalent in our increasingly ignorant and improperly / poorly educated society.
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post #173 of 244 Old 08-30-2018, 08:51 AM
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[QUOTE=m. zillch;56720940]I know what you mean because I have a similar situation with people not believing I can levitate. Not much, just a foot or so, but the thing is I can't do it under the stress of having other people in the room.

I know what you mean. Levitating is a tricky procedure. I can only do it when certain LPs are playing, and even then it's difficult to keep it up for more than a couple of tracks. A neighbor explained to me that gravity is lighter here on Thursdays which would certainly make liftoff easier, but that's my group therapy night so have not yet been able to take advantage of the low-Newton (for those not already in the know, that's what we call the diminished gravitational pull).
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post #174 of 244 Old 08-30-2018, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by liffie420 View Post
They are not directional nor can they be MADE that way, and the fact that you can say this:

"Heavy metal music produces the greatest directionality in the wire. Of course, it must be played very loud, and Led Zeppelin often out-directions Metallica and other pretenders."

With a straight face fully and completely NEGATES anything you have to say on the matter, period end of story. The absurdity of that statement would be funny if it wasn't for the fact that you believe that tripe.
The fact that you believe i was saying that with a straight face completely PROVES that you're taking this entire discussion far too seriously ....
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post #175 of 244 Old 08-30-2018, 09:12 AM
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Yeah, you know all the advances in medicine that we've had which use DBT and placebo are just bull. We should just all discount the sciences that have increased our average life expectancy drastically over the last several hundred years -- hooey, I say! In fact, I think we should revert to our old ways...it'd help with the population "problem".

Humans listen with our brains and our ears, the former is exceptionally fallible and the latter isn't exactly a precision instrument (especially as we age). If one can hear a difference between wires then one set of them is severely crippled (way undersized for the length of the run) or it's acting like an EQ by design (which isn't a wire I'd want to buy). Anything else is in the listener's head. Failure to admit that is failure to accept physics and psychology -- a trait that is unfortunately becoming more prevalent in our increasingly ignorant and improperly / poorly educated society.
Seriously? Our brains are involved? I had no idea. I promise to pay closer attention in all future listening.
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post #176 of 244 Old 08-30-2018, 09:22 AM
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The fact that you believe i was saying that with a straight face completely PROVES that you're taking this entire discussion far too seriously ....
It just proves your here to add nothing to what was being discussed and simply muddy up the waters with your absurd and silly statements.
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post #177 of 244 Old 08-30-2018, 10:03 AM
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... Participating in a DBT designed to evaluate whether one can hear a difference between cables or components is hardly a “stressful” situation.
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Unless you are emotionally or financially invested in the outcome.
Or, failure to perform is looming its ugly head.
How will you explain your failure to your golden ear friends that you no longer a member of the club.

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I thought that [hearing a difference] was the crux of the whole debate.
It is frivolous. Spending large sums for nothing, well that is satisfying.
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post #178 of 244 Old 08-30-2018, 10:09 AM
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The fact that you believe i was saying that with a straight face completely PROVES that you're taking this entire discussion far too seriously ....
Good thing I deleted my response to you on that post.
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post #179 of 244 Old 08-30-2018, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by southleft View Post
The fact that you believe i was saying that with a straight face completely PROVES that you're taking this entire discussion far too seriously ....
I understood that you were joking with that particular statement. The fact that someone thought you meant it seriously may also suggest how equally or near equally ridiculous some of your other statements were that your joke about Zeppelin vs Metallica was taken at face value.

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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool. ~ Richard P. Feynman
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post #180 of 244 Old 08-30-2018, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Gabre View Post
I am actually disappointed, as I thought members here are audiophiles and are able to notice small details, notice differences in music, be able to analyze a being critical to their systems and realizing their drawbacks l and places for improvement.
actually i can tell you if the speakers are aligned more or less 1inch.
in the car i have different settings for my active 2+2 stereo system, since the temperature dependence of sound velocity deserves different corrections for the 4 different distances e.g. for 30° in winter after the start and 100° in summer in the sun.
that makes a HUGE difference!


Quote:
My point was, don't buy cheap ass cables, invest 100-200 bucks in a pair of decent cables.

But under no circumstances I would recommend spending ridiculous amounts on cables.
WHY exactly 100-200 bucks?

IF the cables make that much difference, why don't spend $2000?
just because your equipment is too lousy to hear the difference between a $200 and a $2000 cable everybody else should stop at $200?

and besides that, IF the cable changes the sound so dramatically, why don't spend $100 for 1ft, $200 2ft, $300 3ft ... ?
if the 1ft changes the sound the 3ft cables must change it 3 times that much? Please explain if i am mistaken?

Last edited by Mickey Mouse; 08-30-2018 at 12:36 PM.
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