How much pre-amp -> amp cables matter? - Page 7 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #181 of 244 Old 08-30-2018, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by CruelInventions View Post
I understood that you were joking with that particular statement. The fact that someone thought you meant it seriously may also suggest how equally or near equally ridiculous some of your other statements were that your joke about Zeppelin vs Metallica was taken at face value.
Yup I will admit it the joke went over my head LOL. But that sad thing is, that is not all that far off from what a lot of these, $1,000 a foot cable, people believe. Right up there with Cable Lifts etc. there is a whole industry built around what amounts to rich people with more money than sense.
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post #182 of 244 Old 08-30-2018, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by liffie420 View Post
Right up there with Cable Lifts etc. there is a whole industry built around what amounts to rich people with more money than sense.
Ya know, people poo-poo cable lifts but it's only because they don't give them a try under the right conditions. Each one needs to rest on a non-conductive, cork drink coaster and for the best lower midrange one should fashion a cloth cozy for each one made out of wool mittens. . . . JOKE
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post #183 of 244 Old 08-30-2018, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Ya know, people poo-poo cable lifts but it's only because they don't give them a try under the right conditions. Each one needs to rest on a non-conductive, cork drink coaster and for the best lower midrange one should fashion a cloth cozy for each one made out of wool mittens. . . . JOKE
You left out the part where you have to speak words of encouragement to them, in French ONLY, if you use any other language you must throw them out and buy new ones.
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post #184 of 244 Old 08-30-2018, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by southleft View Post
As for double-blind testing, it's largely bull****. .
Think through the implications if double-blind testing was abandoned in science.

Quote:
Placing a listener in an unfamiliar room, with strangers, in a potentially stressful can-you-reliably-tell-the-difference situation is ridiculous. The best way to evaluate any link in the chain of music reproduction is in your favorite chair, in your favorite room, at your favorite time, listening extensively to your favorite music over several sessions. There is no better way to evaluate hardware, cables, or, for that matter, recorded music.
This is false. In fact, you have about 6 seconds to switch between sources because you forget sound detail that quickly. Established fact, not my opinion.


Quote:
The other completely frivolous assertion is the importance of hearing a difference. You can't buy a difference, and you certainly won't be sitting at home listening to a difference. You'll be listening to music, the whole thing, not a difference. If you like what you hear then go for it, enjoy it. If not, forget it.
This is kinda silly and confused.

The point is, if you can't hear a difference why pay more.

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the fact that someone expresses a preference for one rendering of sound where you perceive they are, to all intents and purposes, identical does not mean that he is a gullible fool any more than it means you're hard of hearing. It's simply personal perception, personal enjoyment, personal choice
Here we agree. If you think the $2,000 cables sound better, God Bless. I know my listening experience is elevated if I use a better cable. But if I came here and claim it "sounds better" I am remiss.
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What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.

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post #185 of 244 Old 08-30-2018, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by liffie420 View Post
Yup I will admit it the joke went over my head LOL. But that sad thing is, that is not all that far off from what a lot of these, $1,000 a foot cable, people believe. Right up there with Cable Lifts etc. there is a whole industry built around what amounts to rich people with more money than sense.
Somehow class envy always creeps into this.

It's a shame.

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #186 of 244 Old 08-30-2018, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by liffie420 View Post
You left out the part where you have to speak words of encouragement to them, in French ONLY, if you use any other language you must throw them out and buy new ones.

and of course the mocking too.

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #187 of 244 Old 08-30-2018, 12:53 PM
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this whole "discussion" (it's no discussion, it's a joke) reminds me of one thing:
Quote:
You take the blue pill—the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill—you stay in Wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes. Remember: all I'm offering is the truth. Nothing more.
some people don't want to know the truth, they feel happy within the matrix, just spend 200 bucks for cables and everything is fine
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post #188 of 244 Old 08-30-2018, 10:48 PM
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Would you care to share the particulars of your business?

I don't think that the moderators would ding you for that.
Check my profile.
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post #189 of 244 Old 08-30-2018, 10:52 PM
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Originally Posted by BpShenanigans View Post
James Randi was challenged in this by Michael Fremer of Sterophile, and bowed out under pressure, not willing to risk his cash to an expert listener.
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post #190 of 244 Old 08-30-2018, 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by eljr View Post
Just what would qualify as a system refined enough to hear cable differences?

Would a system consisting of only a CD player, amp and speakers valued at north of $25,000 qualify, for example?

Or does each component need to cost $20,000 to qualify?

thanks
Price has no bearing. I said that a system has to be resolving enough to make quality cable worthwhile.
I also said the OP certainly had a fine enough system to make good cables worth the expence, and that he should audition some different ones.
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post #191 of 244 Old 08-30-2018, 11:05 PM
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Originally Posted by southleft View Post
None of the cables I mentioned were high-end. As for double-blind testing, it's largely bull****. Placing a listener in an unfamiliar room, with strangers, in a potentially stressful can-you-reliably-tell-the-difference situation is ridiculous. The best way to evaluate any link in the chain of music reproduction is in your favorite chair, in your favorite room, at your favorite time, listening extensively to your favorite music over several sessions. There is no better way to evaluate hardware, cables, or, for that matter, recorded music.
The other completely frivolous assertion is the importance of hearing a difference. You can't buy a difference, and you certainly won't be sitting at home listening to a difference. You'll be listening to music, the whole thing, not a difference. If you like what you hear then go for it, enjoy it. If not, forget it. And, the fact that someone expresses a preference for one rendering of sound where you perceive they are, to all intents and purposes, identical does not mean that he is a gullible fool any more than it means you're hard of hearing. It's simply personal perception, personal enjoyment, personal choice.
This is spot on. Double Blind Testing may be useful in some disciplines, but for hearing perception it is useless. Southleft is correct; it is too stressful to relax and hear subtleties, too many variables make for a test which can't determine what is what. Only long term listening can discern the minute difference in a component, and tell which is most musical, no-fatiguing, and revealing. Find a High End designer who doesn't use long listening sessions to determine how to finalize a product. Norm
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post #192 of 244 Old 08-31-2018, 01:02 AM
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Originally Posted by tyree91 View Post
James Randi was challenged in this by Michael Fremer of Sterophile, and bowed out under pressure, not willing to risk his cash to an expert listener.
False.

The manufacturer, Pear, apparently felt nobody from their own organization could hear a difference their $7K cable made so instead they decided to enlist the help of Fremer, a magazine writer at Stereophile, to represent them as an expert listener in Randi's million dollar challenge. [Which begs the question: if nobody who works at Pear can reliably hear the difference with their +$7K cable, how can they justify it is "worth it" if it isn't worth it to anyone who works there?].

Pear then got cold feet and refused to either donate, or loan, a Pear Anjou cable for the listening test:

Pear Cable Withdraws from James Randi's $1M Challenge

"According to the James Randi foundation, Pear Cable's (chickens!) CEO Adam Blake (chicken!) has withdrawn his help to Michael Fremer, the Stereophile Magazine writer who accepted Randi's $1,000,000 challenge, and was ready to prove that he can blindly detect the difference between $7,250 Pear (chickens!) Anjou cables and their Monster Cable equivalent:

At the request of Michael Fremer, with whom we have been communicating regarding his challenging of your assertions regarding high-end audio cables, we would like to inform you directly of Pear Cable's [chickens!] decision to not participate in your claimed challenge. While we support Mr. Fremer's efforts, and believe firmly in the performance of our products, we [chickens!] prefer that he simply use his own reference cables in his proposed test.

That email was received by the James Randi Educational Foundation and basically says that Pear Cables (chickens!) is not going to provide a set of $7,250 Pear (chickens!) Anjou cables:

While we [chickens!] had initially planned to loan cable to Mr. Fremer for the test, upon consideration of your communications with him, as well as our doubts about the legitimacy of your misleading challenge (including the fact that you now personally claim that almost anyone can tell the difference between Monster cables and zip-cord), we [chickens!] do not wish to be involved. We [chickens!] do not expect this to hamper Mr. Fremer's efforts in any way.

The foundation's reply is that they are not going to provide with a set of cables for the test themselves, so Fremer will have to come with his own set for test. According to Randi's organization, there are "others who have expressed interest in taking the challenge in regard to regular-vs-ridiculous speaker cables" and they will be taking those in chronological order. [James Randi Educational Foundation - Thanks Benito]" -GIZMODO

Also:
Pear Cable Chickens Out of $1,000,000 Challenge, We Search For Answers [click for link]

Conclusion: "We're left to think the following: If Pear Cable was so sure that Pear Anjou cables were as good as the company claims, and if those pieces of copper wire were truly worth $7250, the company would have stood behind that product, offering it up for any test, by anyone, any time."
---
It is important to note Randi never said all cables under the sun are the same and therefore may participate in the offer so each challenger is taken on a case by case basis [so he can consult his technically more savvy experts elsewhere in the country, if said cable is dubious. Purposeful manipulations of a cable's resistance, capacitance, and inductance, after all, can invoke filtration characteristics to give the cable a "tell" and make it audibly stand out to a keen listener. That is, the cable could be gimmick-ed.

Randi's is now retired, in his 90's, I believe, and in frail shape. The Million Dollar Challenge is no longer offered, at least in its original form, and the million dollars is now being distributed as annual grants to worthy causes promoting evidence based science.

More on the email exchange between Randi and Fremer here:

[Note: the commenter going by "grooves" is Fremer]
https://web.archive.org/web/20080226...d=104&Itemid=2
http://www.randi.org:80/joom/index.p...d=105&Itemid=2
[update: sorry I think that last link is now dead]

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post #193 of 244 Old 08-31-2018, 01:24 AM
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Originally Posted by tyree91 View Post
Double Blind Testing may be useful in some disciplines, but for hearing perception it is useless. Southleft is correct; it is too stressful to relax and hear subtleties, too many variables make for a test which can't determine what is what.
So you are saying it is impossible to tell a difference audibly unless you can see (or know) which cable you are listening to, called a "sighted test" [the opposite of a blind test]. Did I get that right? If not, please elaborate, thanks.

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post #194 of 244 Old 08-31-2018, 07:19 AM
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Originally Posted by tyree91 View Post
Price has no bearing. I said that a system has to be resolving enough to make quality cable worthwhile.
I also said the OP certainly had a fine enough system to make good cables worth the expence, and that he should audition some different ones.
Thanks for the reply but I need specifics.

What makes a system "resolving enough?"

How do you know the op's system is?

How do I know if mine is?????

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #195 of 244 Old 08-31-2018, 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Mickey Mouse View Post
this whole "discussion" (it's no discussion, it's a joke) reminds me of one thing:

some people don't want to know the truth, they feel happy within the matrix, just spend 200 bucks for cables and everything is fine
This is also valid. Bias does not reside on a one way street.

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #196 of 244 Old 08-31-2018, 07:34 AM
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Check my profile.
Hey, I just checked your profile. You are into high school football I see. What school in Colorado plays football at an elite level?

#8 St. Thomas Aquinas pounded top 50 DeMatha 38-0 last week .. Tonight # 5 Grayson will do the same to #12 Bergen Catholic.

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #197 of 244 Old 08-31-2018, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by tyree91 View Post
This is spot on. Double Blind Testing may be useful in some disciplines, but for hearing perception it is useless. Southleft is correct; it is too stressful to relax and hear subtleties, too many variables make for a test which can't determine what is what. Only long term listening can discern the minute difference in a component, and tell which is most musical, no-fatiguing, and revealing. Find a High End designer who doesn't use long listening sessions to determine how to finalize a product. Norm
This is wholly wrong. Sorry.
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What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #198 of 244 Old 08-31-2018, 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by tyree91 View Post
Southleft is correct; it is too stressful to relax and hear subtleties, too many variables make for a test which can't determine what is what. Only long term listening can discern the minute difference in a component, and tell which is most musical, no-fatiguing, and revealing. Find a High End designer who doesn't use long listening sessions to determine how to finalize a product. Norm
How does the above square with your prior claim in this thread:

"When finished I had the electrical engineer sit down and listen to some music. He couldn't believe what he heard. Although he had designed many, many systems with generic cable due to his schooled belief, he had no idea what a difference cable can make in a fine system. He is now converted forever."
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post #199 of 244 Old 08-31-2018, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by eljr View Post
Somehow class envy always creeps into this.

It's a shame.
There was no class envy at all in my comment. There is nothing stopping some millionaire from buying $2000/foot cable, it doesn't mean I can't also think he or she is an idiot for doing it. And there are plenty of people who will automatically assume because something is more expensive it must be better.
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post #200 of 244 Old 08-31-2018, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by CharlesJ View Post
Good thing I deleted my response to you on that post.
Yes, thank goodness for small favors.
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Originally Posted by liffie420 View Post
It just proves your here to add nothing to what was being discussed and simply muddy up the waters with your absurd and silly statements.
Oh, gosh, i never meant to hurt your feelings.
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post #202 of 244 Old 08-31-2018, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by liffie420 View Post
There was no class envy at all in my comment.

Dude, it's there to read and continued in this reply.

Happens in every thread like this.

FYI, non "millionaires" save up for a long time and also spread money on expensive cables that would never pass a double blind.

The issue is not knowing any better.

Heck, I'll bet most the folks in the business don't know any better.

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #203 of 244 Old 08-31-2018, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by eljr View Post
Dude, it's there to read and continued in this reply.

Happens in every thread like this.

FYI, non "millionaires" save up for a long time and also spread money on expensive cables that would never pass a double blind.

The issue is not knowing any better.

Heck, I'll bet most the folks in the business don't know any better.
It doesn't matter who buys the cables, Joe Blow or Elon Musk, its still a stupid decision.
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post #204 of 244 Old 08-31-2018, 01:33 PM
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What's even more amazing than $2000 audio cables is the fact that this thread has survived as long as it has......
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post #205 of 244 Old 08-31-2018, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Gabre View Post
Omg, I could literally record how obvious it is.


I am actually disappointed, as I thought members here are audiophiles and are able to notice small details, notice differences in music, be able to analyze a being critical to their systems and realizing their drawbacks l and places for improvement.

My point was, don't buy cheap ass cables, invest 100-200 bucks in a pair of decent cables.

But under no circumstances I would recommend spending ridiculous amounts on cables.



Sent from my HTC U11 using Tapatalk
Yes, we can detect small differences provided (as i previously posted) we're listening under ideal circumstances. However, what matters is do you feel/hear an improvement, and do you feel it's worth the asking price?
Regarding cheap ass cables, i concur. Avoid them when possible.
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post #206 of 244 Old 08-31-2018, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Gabre View Post
I am actually disappointed, as I thought members here are audiophiles and are able to notice small details, notice differences in music, be able to analyze a being critical to their systems and realizing their drawbacks l and places for improvement.

My point was, don't buy cheap ass cables, invest 100-200 bucks in a pair of decent cables.
Hmmmm.... the A stands for Audio, the V stands for video and the S stands for Science

If you want to gush about wires and audiophile fuses--the science in the title should of tipped you off.

Not sure what a cheap ass cable actually is... I built a pair of line arrays for my garage and used 200 feet of 18 guage cable--then connected it to 12 AWG cable to the amplifier. If you have ever taken a speaker apart and looked at the passive crossover board--ponder how it works. Pay attention to the thickness of the leads for the capacitors and resistors, note the thickness of the inductor coil wire--this is what the signal goes through after it leaves the speaker cable.

The entire point of a speaker wire is to limit voltage drop across a run of a specific length--generally 5% or lower. You can do this with copper, silver, aluminum or steel if it is thick enough--all is well.

I do find it odd that people don't address the wiring INSIDE the speaker box itself. What about all those inductor coils--they are generally in the range of 14 to 20 AWG coils with many feet of copper in the crossover.

AVS did an article about using aluminum foil to make speaker cables--this is the forum you signed up for. I've seen forums that discuss the merits of audiophile fuses, the more expensive ($175) ones are better and you can get them pre-broken in for an extra fee. I also learned that if you turn an apple TV box upside down, it will sound better.

Sorry the Science parts gets in your way of tweaking things--a lot of people come here to learn how it works, to peak behind the curtain and to put their budget money were it counts and avoid wasting it where it won't. Look at fuses, they cost around 3 to 10 cents each... the proper fuses do. Oddly enough, "audiophile fuses" are used in nothing else on the planet...ever wonder why?

Now if you want to blow money on aesthetics--more power to you! However, you are paying money for style which most people won't do since hiding cables is how most people prefer to do things. For those people that use in ceiling speakers for Atmos or wall installed speakers for surrounds--they have to use cable rated to be run inside walls. Oddly enough, I generally don't see "audiophile inwall rated" wire--yet!

If you really want to learn about speaker wire, here is a link that explains it all in very high levels of detail. All part of the learning process.

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm
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post #207 of 244 Old 08-31-2018, 05:04 PM
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Omg what a load of crap. After reading about your GARAGE setup that was it for me and importance of your opinion.

I don't plan on continuing with this topic as either you have an ear for detail or don't, that's it.

Luckily, there is a looooooz of people that will hear and feel cable difference. At least the ones that know how their system sounds

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post #208 of 244 Old 08-31-2018, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Gabre View Post
Omg what a load of crap. After reading about your GARAGE setup that was it for me and importance of your opinion.

I don't plan on continuing with this topic as either you have an ear for detail or don't, that's it.
Or, you have a very vivid imagination or you don't.

There's simply ZERO independent, objectively-derived evidence of any significance at all that cables sound different**. Only purely anecdotal experiences.


** unless they are purposely designed to alter frequency response, i.e., with in-line filters. Then they can indeed sound different.

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Luckily, there is a looooooz of people that will hear and feel cable difference. At least the ones that know how their system sounds
Yes, there still exists a large enough subset of audiophiles who also share your view so you can at least take comfort in that camaraderie of shared belief. Because honestly, that's all you've got.
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool. ~ Richard P. Feynman
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post #209 of 244 Old 08-31-2018, 06:55 PM
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You know what,

At the end it's your word against mine.

I hear it, you don't, dont care, whatever, thats it.

I can feel a slight tire pressure difference on my car, some people can't feel when they have a flat.

Cause I know how my car feels always.
Same with speakers.




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post #210 of 244 Old 08-31-2018, 07:28 PM
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James Randi was challenged in this by Michael Fremer of Sterophile, and bowed out under pressure, not willing to risk his cash to an expert listener.
Shameful. He didn't back out. Facts are facts.
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