Originally Posted by torii
wonder why so many try to measure this or that...review that vs this...100% cant tell the difference. no need for expensive speakers...use the cheapest stuff you can find. I bet I can rig up something that could show differences, as I also believe you could too.
I'll use an analogy to explain the differences
A complete audio system is basically an air pump--the amplifier is the power to drive the pump, the source/pre-amp is the ignition system/controller and the spoeaker is the actual air pump itself. Look at a lawn mower engine it is "analog" in that it does not have sensors to ****** or advance the ignition system or change the fuel injectors fuel to air ratio during operation.
OK, gasoline goes from the tank (like electricity from the wall) and goes through the fuel line (speaker wires/cables) to the carb to dump fuel into the engine. Granted, if the fuel line is too small in diameter the engine will not get enough fuel and choke off at higher RPMs. Speaker wire that is too small in guage will "chock off" (voltage drop) the speaker during use. You can put a larger carb on the engine, boost the compression and even use forged pistons, ARP bolts on a titanium connecting rod but still have the same problem. So you find the engine is starved for fuel and install a larger fuel line--(larger guage wire) and it runs great! Well, if it runs great...you want MORE! So you install a fuel line 4 inches in diamter to the carb (giant speaker wire) and the mower still runs great.
Then you notice the engine will ping under load when mowing wet grass--on 87 octane. Throw in 89 octane and the problem goes away...but you want more! 93 octane does not knock but it "feels" more powerful than 89 octane so you still want more! Go down to the drag strip and get octane over 100 and add octane boost...wow! It sure feels like you have a mighty mower and although the gas costs you $20 a gallon after treatments... it "feels" more powerul!
Then you mention running a 4 inch fuel line and 100+ octane racing fuel in your lawnmower to a mechanic... He takes your riding mower and puts it on a dyno to measure power with 87/89/93 and 100+ octane and hands over the charts and graphs. He then installs the correct sized fuel line for your engine needs as he has a chart to tell him that (like AWG to impedance and distance runs with electricity) The dyno informs you there is no difference in power between 89 octane with the correct sized fuel line over your 100+ octane fuel with a 4" fuel line...no difference.
Fuel lines and gasoline octane ratings only matter until a point then have no effect whatsover on performance. A lawnmower engine needs what it needs and will feel different and perform different until those needs are met. Once it has those requirements met, then any gains will be slight to non-existant... the same holds true with all machines--and an audio system is a machine.
Justifying blowing money on a piece of wire is the same as blowing money on a speaker is flawed logic. A speaker is a machine, a glorified air pump that is active. A hunk of wire is a passive device that can't improve the signal coming in--it can only make it worse. Just as installing a huge fuel line does not increase performance, installing a huge speaker wire won't increase performance. Fuel lines are passive as are speaker wires and once they are at the proper size, increasing the size won't increase performance.
I do find it odd that people would burn money on speaker wire and yet, there is plenty of wire inside the speaker that is untouched. Those passive crossovers are full of wire coils and capacitors that have very small leads and guages. Push on connectors inside the speaker that are cheap and can lead to high resistance connections over time. Yes, there is a market out there for "audiophile" capacitors to change out in the crossovers and yes, you can replace 18 AWG inductor coils for 12 AWG inductor coils if you like (and people do!) Does this make the speaker sound better if you do that? Swap out the stock $7 poly caps for $300 silver/gold film capacitors and the veil is lifted! Rip out the stock 16 AWG internal speaker wires and slap in 2 AWG and solder it directly to the drivers to make it better.
Of course, if you actually design and build speakers and passive crossovers, the logic flaw just jumps out at you.
Any stock speaker can be improved, any stock amp can be improved and yes...even speaker wire resistance can be improved but what is the limit? If you built a speaker cabinet out of concrete and lead--would a meter thick wall be "better" than a 5cm wall? The easy answer is the meter thick wall would be "better"--and it can be proven with math, science and materials engineering. Does it matter? Would the fractional difference be audible? The main thing with passive speaker wire is voltage drop caused by the resistance in the wire. You can drop the resistance by increasing the guage or thickness of the wire. Heck, you can drop the resistance by using solid silver to cut resistance by 5%! Granted, you could just use even thicker copper wire to do the same thing. If you like the looks of thick wire but don't want the weight, use 2 AWG aluminum which has a lower resistance than 10 AWG copper...more performance!
This is a measurement game--but the main question is "does it matter". Say you want to limit voltage drop to 0.5dB...a very slight variance to the human ear and far more demanding than the +/- 3dB of speakers. If you purchase a pair of audiophile speakers, it is highly doubtful they would measure less than 0.5dB against each other so 0.5dB is a reasonable target. The difference with amplifier power to gain or lose 0.5dB is 10%...a very large number. If you look at the wire charts, go for less than a 5% voltage drop you would exceed your requirements easily. You can go overkill, go with a 3% voltage drop or even 1% voltage drop chart as copper wire is cheap and plentiful. For most people with most audio equipment with runs under 50 feet, that would be 12 AWG. Now if you plan on having massive subwoofers that are around one ohm to be driven by concert arena amps at thousands of watts (B&C iPAL subs come to mind) then you'll NEED some serious cable to prevent voltage drop. You can't use ANY audiophile amp to drive one ohm subs at thousands of watts--you need commercial amplifiers used for rock concerts in stadiums to drive that design. The wiring you would use would be dictated by the amplifier manufacturers and specs provided by B&C--not by audio salesmen or internet forum people.
I think B&C when they made the iPAL subwoofers made them 1 ohm to keep the audiophiles away. B&C does not make drivers for consumer sound, too much of a hassle to deal with that group. They stay firmly in professional sound and did put out a video about the weird belief systems in sound. The video is 100% false but it does read like the marketing and beliefs many audiophiles vomit out for decades.
So if you want truely new... how does wrapped neo wire grab ya?
They guys almost held their poker faces with the introductions of "B&C's new "audiophile" series of drivers". Why would B&C risk sales by pissing off audiophiles? Maybe, the people that purchase drivers from B&C are not audiophiles--they don't build drivers for that market. For clarity, I use B&C drivers in my HT system and thought the title was true...until the (tongue in cheek) humor made it obvious they are just yanking my chain.
Oddly enough, I'm willing to bet somebody emailed them about when the neo wrapped voicecoil 21 inch subs will be available.
Enjoy the humor--even audio people need to laugh at ourselves on occasion.