How much pre-amp -> amp cables matter? - Page 8 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #211 of 244 Old 08-31-2018, 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by tyree91 View Post
Price has no bearing. I said that a system has to be resolving enough to make quality cable worthwhile.
I also said the OP certainly had a fine enough system to make good cables worth the expence, and that he should audition some different ones.
Oh, really? Evidence can be found where?
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post #212 of 244 Old 08-31-2018, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by tyree91 View Post
This is spot on. Double Blind Testing may be useful in some disciplines, but for hearing perception it is useless. . . Norm
Agaiun, where is the evidence for this foolish claim?
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post #213 of 244 Old 08-31-2018, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by eljr View Post
...

How do I know if mine is?????
It is when you can tell a difference, not necessarily in a DBT.
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post #214 of 244 Old 08-31-2018, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Gabre View Post
...
Luckily, there is a looooooz of people that will hear and feel cable difference. ...
No. They just think they hear a difference as most likely they have not been tested to verify their belif is correct and their perception a reality or just human biased imagination.
So, it seems facts are not important to all those looooooz people.
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post #215 of 244 Old 08-31-2018, 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Gabre View Post
You know what,

At the end it's your word against mine.

I hear it, you don't, dont care, whatever, thats it.

I can feel a slight tire pressure difference on my car, some people can't feel when they have a flat.

Cause I know how my car feels always.
Same with speakers.
No, it is not about your word or his. It is about what can be demonstrated repeatedly. And no, you just think you hear a difference but you don't know until you can consistently demonstrate under bias controlled testing.
It is that simple.
But, please you are allowed to believe your singular reality.
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post #216 of 244 Old 08-31-2018, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by hehe299792458 View Post
I'm planning on purchasing some Rotel pre-amps and amps. The amps themselves are around $8000, and the salesperson insisted that they'd be wasted on cheap cables. So he recommended high-end Transparent cables for me. Most of these are RCA connections between the pre-amp and amp. They are also "directional".

Are they worth it? I'm pretty new to audio and analogue signals, but I know for network cables, as long as they are shield and made to the same spec, there's very little difference cables make. Monoprice makes some pretty cheap cables in comparison.

Transparent MusicLink RCA Interconnect Cable, 2m
Transparent Music Wave Speaker Cable, 15'
Transparent Music Wave Speaker Cable, 8',
Transparent MusicLink RCA Interconnect Cable, 15’

All told, these cables add up to around $2200.
Expensive cables are a total waste of money in my opinion and from my experience after being in this hobby since 1995. If you want to reduce hum and noise pick up from your pre-amp to your amp it's better to use XLR cables but sounds like your equipment does not offer that sort of connection. I don't skimp on equipment but I have learned over the years that I can't tell any difference in budget cables and very expensive cables. Could there be differences? Maybe. Differences don't make them better, and I can't tell a difference. The only thing you need to worry about for speaker cable is using a thick enough wire diameter if you have long runs, but you have a very short 15' run so a 14 gauge wire is fine but why not go with some mono price 12 gauge "just to be sure".

The profit on the $2,200 worth of cables is likely over $1,800.
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post #217 of 244 Old 08-31-2018, 08:22 PM
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Preamps and cables matter! As to how much one spends and how they look well just like the rest of ones setup,its up to the buyer. Personally! after just a hair under 30yrs in my on pursuit of higher fidelity and while not having the worlds best gear but just great sounding gear I can still remember the first time I heard a difference and to this day its been another great tool in my arsenal of assembling and reconfiguring my setups over the years some changes I won't even call bad or good (as long as the signal passes it works right!) but just to my liking for my systems balance!
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post #218 of 244 Old 09-01-2018, 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by liffie420 View Post
It doesn't matter who buys the cables, Joe Blow or Elon Musk, its still a stupid decision.
It's likely not a stupid decision but it may often be an ill-informed decision.
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What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #219 of 244 Old 09-01-2018, 07:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabre View Post

Luckily, there is a looooooz of people that will hear and feel cable difference.

Sent from my HTC U11 using Tapatalk
I agree that there are a lot of people who will perceive a difference but is that perceived difference able to be replicated consistently in a controlled environment which seeks to eliminate bias?

Everything I have read says no.
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post #220 of 244 Old 09-01-2018, 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Gabre View Post
You know what,

At the end it's your word against mine.





Sent from my HTC U11 using Tapatalk

This is not true. One of my self penned quotes is appropriate here.

"Opinion is acceptable in the absence of fact, not in conflict with it."
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post #221 of 244 Old 09-01-2018, 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by farsider3000 View Post

The profit on the $2,200 worth of cables is likely over $1,800.
I see wild unsubstantiated claims are coming from all directions.

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #222 of 244 Old 09-01-2018, 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted by eljr View Post
This is not true. One of my self penned quotes is appropriate here.

"Opinion is acceptable in the absence of fact, not in conflict with it."
Dude, where is your fact? Because you think cables shouldn't matter, but they do, cables are not perfect, identical build, copper from who knows which part of the world, temperature at which it was melted, etc etc etc



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post #223 of 244 Old 09-01-2018, 07:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabre View Post
Dude, where is your fact? Because you think cables shouldn't matter, but they do, cables are not perfect, identical build, copper from who knows which part of the world, temperature at which it was melted, etc etc etc



Sent from my HTC U11 using Tapatalk
A poorly built cable would then degrade the sound.

A well build cable will not.

This almost never a problem except at termination.
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post #224 of 244 Old 09-01-2018, 07:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tyree91 View Post
Price has no bearing. I said that a system has to be resolving enough to make quality cable worthwhile.
I also said the OP certainly had a fine enough system to make good cables worth the expence, and that he should audition some different ones.
Still waiting for answer as to how one knows if a system is good enough to benefit from expensive cables.

Also, not a HS Football fan after all? Or just locally??

What you got back home, little sister, to play your fuzzy warbles on? I bet you got little save pitiful, portable picnic players. Come with uncle and hear all proper! Hear angel trumpets and devil trombones. You are invited.
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post #225 of 244 Old 09-01-2018, 09:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabre View Post
I hear it, you don't, dont care, whatever, thats it.
Again...
You believe you hear it!

Quote:
I can feel a slight tire pressure difference on my car, some people can't feel when they have a flat.
Cause I know how my car feels always.
You will not note the difference between 29 and 30psi while riding your children to school!
I'm racing amateur slaloms. The tyre pressure raises about 3psi during the race together with the tyre temperature.
I can feel the difference and in the end the stop watch tells me if my feeling was right or not.

Question for you: HOW do you compare the different cables? How do you manage a fair blind test without knowing which cable is connected at the moment?

I have modified my power amp in way the RCA/XLR inputs can be switched by remote control. All the signal switching mechanism was already in there, i just bypassed the switches for the already installed relays by electronic ones. So the signal path hasn't been modified at all and is not influenced by the new remote switching method.

so i'm able to have two pairs of cables (one RCA, XLR the other) between my pre and power amp at he same time and switch between anytime without any loss.
we are talking about $5500 pre/power amp and roughly $20.000 speakers (stereo pair only)
N OBODY can tell the difference between the cables if he doesn't know which are connected upfront! That has been proven several times, no matter how much the people believed they would be able to distinguish between their cables.

If you believe you are able to hear differences after doing all the plugging it's simply self deception.

Technically it's almost impossible to build such a bad cable, that it has any influence to the sound when it is used between a "decent" pre-amp (with low output impedance) and an also decent power amp.
As i mentioned before, things are different if we talk about rubbish pre-amps or phono pickups, that's a completely different thing.
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post #226 of 244 Old 09-01-2018, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Gabre View Post
You know what,

At the end it's your word against mine.

I hear it, you don't, dont care, whatever, thats it.

I can feel a slight tire pressure difference on my car, some people can't feel when they have a flat.

Cause I know how my car feels always.
Same with speakers.
You assume that people who disagree are always coming from a position of not ever having heard differences.

Not true. But the distinction here is that we understand why those impressions can be unreliable. Particularly if considered against the weight of available evidence, both engineering and psychological. But first-hand anecdotal experience is a very powerful thing, which can be extremely difficult to overcome. No matter how many facts and figures can be aligned against that personal experience. So I can understand why you and others like you can remain adamant about your cable listening experiences being valid.

The link in my signature explores this subject in more detail.
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post #227 of 244 Old 09-01-2018, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Gabre View Post
Dude, where is your fact? Because you think cables shouldn't matter, but they do, cables are not perfect, identical build, copper from who knows which part of the world, temperature at which it was melted, etc etc etc



Sent from my HTC U11 using Tapatalk
None of the things that you state matter at all with respect to audio cables. Doesn’t matter which part of the world the copper comes from. And the temperature at which it was melted??? Really??? 😒🙄

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post #228 of 244 Old 09-01-2018, 01:42 PM
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For people who really care about the sound the best copper is blessed by Tibetan monks.
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post #229 of 244 Old 09-01-2018, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Gabre View Post
Dude, where is your fact? Because you think cables shouldn't matter, but they do, ...
And, your facts are located where? You are the claimant that they matter audibly.
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post #230 of 244 Old 09-01-2018, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Mickey Mouse View Post
Again...
You believe you hear it!


...
I think he imagines it first, then believes it.
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post #231 of 244 Old 09-01-2018, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by sk373 View Post
None of the things that you state matter at all with respect to audio cables. Doesn’t matter which part of the world the copper comes from. And the temperature at which it was melted??? Really??? 😒🙄
Oh, I missed his last parts, melting temperature and production locality. WOW.
How crazy can one get?
What is next, the full moon or lack there of? Some cyclical function? Never ending excuses, it seems.
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post #232 of 244 Old 09-01-2018, 08:23 PM
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Crazier are you spending 20,000 on speakers, that's justifiable, but it's not spending 200 on wires.

Over and out

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post #233 of 244 Old 09-01-2018, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by sk373 View Post
None of the things that you state matter at all with respect to audio cables. Doesn’t matter which part of the world the copper comes from. And the temperature at which it was melted??? Really??? 😒🙄
Any preference as to where you would want your steel to come from and produced by and temperature in which temperature its melted at? Sure copper is found in the Earth but the refining,annealing and drawing of the copper may differ from place to place and why I prefer PCOCC or pure copper ohno continuous cast (! wait for it!!!! for the characteristics it can have on the sound

As for steel?

US
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post #234 of 244 Old 09-01-2018, 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Gabre View Post
Crazier are you spending 20,000 on speakers, that's justifiable, but it's not spending 200 on wires.

Over and out

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Huh? There is no logical reason why there should be a relationship between how much one should spend for speakers (or other components), and how much one should spend for wires.
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post #235 of 244 Old 09-01-2018, 10:02 PM
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I was reading the new AVS Theater of the Month,

Took him 18 months to build...

Custom built mega horn loaded 21" subs and built 10 surround cabinets

Uses AVR power to drive 4 of the surrounds and has LABGruppen FP14000 commercial professional amps driving the subs

Cost 25,000 bucks...

Uses Monoprice 12 guage speaker wire...

I love it when a plan comes together
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post #236 of 244 Old 09-01-2018, 10:31 PM
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wonder why so many try to measure this or that...review that vs this...100% cant tell the difference. no need for expensive speakers...use the cheapest stuff you can find. I bet I can rig up something that could show differences, as I also believe you could too.

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post #237 of 244 Old 09-02-2018, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southleft View Post
Actually, if you magnify new, stranded wire sufficiently to observe its molecular structure you will observe that there is no particular orientation or pattern to the grouping of said molecules. Send a signal through the wire from an amplifier to a speaker for several hundred hours then observe the wire once again through the microscope. You will see that the molecules have become oriented in a clear pattern, i.e. the wire has become, in audio parlance, "directional".
Some audio cables include passive networks with several electronic components embedded in them. These components' electrical characteristics alter slightly over their first few hundred hours of use.
The relevance of these minute changes may be debated or dismissed, as it pleases you. In the end, what matters is whether a particular set of cables enhances your enjoyment of the music and whether you deem them to be worth the cost. If you don't enjoy the music more, or you don't judge they represent good value then stick with what you've got.
Sorry that I missed the joke. The parody wasn't sufficiently more ridiculous than the real thing.
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post #238 of 244 Old 09-02-2018, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by torii View Post
wonder why so many try to measure this or that...review that vs this...100% cant tell the difference. no need for expensive speakers...use the cheapest stuff you can find. I bet I can rig up something that could show differences, as I also believe you could too.
I'll use an analogy to explain the differences

A complete audio system is basically an air pump--the amplifier is the power to drive the pump, the source/pre-amp is the ignition system/controller and the spoeaker is the actual air pump itself. Look at a lawn mower engine it is "analog" in that it does not have sensors to ****** or advance the ignition system or change the fuel injectors fuel to air ratio during operation.

OK, gasoline goes from the tank (like electricity from the wall) and goes through the fuel line (speaker wires/cables) to the carb to dump fuel into the engine. Granted, if the fuel line is too small in diameter the engine will not get enough fuel and choke off at higher RPMs. Speaker wire that is too small in guage will "chock off" (voltage drop) the speaker during use. You can put a larger carb on the engine, boost the compression and even use forged pistons, ARP bolts on a titanium connecting rod but still have the same problem. So you find the engine is starved for fuel and install a larger fuel line--(larger guage wire) and it runs great! Well, if it runs great...you want MORE! So you install a fuel line 4 inches in diamter to the carb (giant speaker wire) and the mower still runs great.

Then you notice the engine will ping under load when mowing wet grass--on 87 octane. Throw in 89 octane and the problem goes away...but you want more! 93 octane does not knock but it "feels" more powerful than 89 octane so you still want more! Go down to the drag strip and get octane over 100 and add octane boost...wow! It sure feels like you have a mighty mower and although the gas costs you $20 a gallon after treatments... it "feels" more powerul!

Then you mention running a 4 inch fuel line and 100+ octane racing fuel in your lawnmower to a mechanic... He takes your riding mower and puts it on a dyno to measure power with 87/89/93 and 100+ octane and hands over the charts and graphs. He then installs the correct sized fuel line for your engine needs as he has a chart to tell him that (like AWG to impedance and distance runs with electricity) The dyno informs you there is no difference in power between 89 octane with the correct sized fuel line over your 100+ octane fuel with a 4" fuel line...no difference.

Fuel lines and gasoline octane ratings only matter until a point then have no effect whatsover on performance. A lawnmower engine needs what it needs and will feel different and perform different until those needs are met. Once it has those requirements met, then any gains will be slight to non-existant... the same holds true with all machines--and an audio system is a machine.

Justifying blowing money on a piece of wire is the same as blowing money on a speaker is flawed logic. A speaker is a machine, a glorified air pump that is active. A hunk of wire is a passive device that can't improve the signal coming in--it can only make it worse. Just as installing a huge fuel line does not increase performance, installing a huge speaker wire won't increase performance. Fuel lines are passive as are speaker wires and once they are at the proper size, increasing the size won't increase performance.

I do find it odd that people would burn money on speaker wire and yet, there is plenty of wire inside the speaker that is untouched. Those passive crossovers are full of wire coils and capacitors that have very small leads and guages. Push on connectors inside the speaker that are cheap and can lead to high resistance connections over time. Yes, there is a market out there for "audiophile" capacitors to change out in the crossovers and yes, you can replace 18 AWG inductor coils for 12 AWG inductor coils if you like (and people do!) Does this make the speaker sound better if you do that? Swap out the stock $7 poly caps for $300 silver/gold film capacitors and the veil is lifted! Rip out the stock 16 AWG internal speaker wires and slap in 2 AWG and solder it directly to the drivers to make it better.

Of course, if you actually design and build speakers and passive crossovers, the logic flaw just jumps out at you.
Any stock speaker can be improved, any stock amp can be improved and yes...even speaker wire resistance can be improved but what is the limit? If you built a speaker cabinet out of concrete and lead--would a meter thick wall be "better" than a 5cm wall? The easy answer is the meter thick wall would be "better"--and it can be proven with math, science and materials engineering. Does it matter? Would the fractional difference be audible? The main thing with passive speaker wire is voltage drop caused by the resistance in the wire. You can drop the resistance by increasing the guage or thickness of the wire. Heck, you can drop the resistance by using solid silver to cut resistance by 5%! Granted, you could just use even thicker copper wire to do the same thing. If you like the looks of thick wire but don't want the weight, use 2 AWG aluminum which has a lower resistance than 10 AWG copper...more performance!

This is a measurement game--but the main question is "does it matter". Say you want to limit voltage drop to 0.5dB...a very slight variance to the human ear and far more demanding than the +/- 3dB of speakers. If you purchase a pair of audiophile speakers, it is highly doubtful they would measure less than 0.5dB against each other so 0.5dB is a reasonable target. The difference with amplifier power to gain or lose 0.5dB is 10%...a very large number. If you look at the wire charts, go for less than a 5% voltage drop you would exceed your requirements easily. You can go overkill, go with a 3% voltage drop or even 1% voltage drop chart as copper wire is cheap and plentiful. For most people with most audio equipment with runs under 50 feet, that would be 12 AWG. Now if you plan on having massive subwoofers that are around one ohm to be driven by concert arena amps at thousands of watts (B&C iPAL subs come to mind) then you'll NEED some serious cable to prevent voltage drop. You can't use ANY audiophile amp to drive one ohm subs at thousands of watts--you need commercial amplifiers used for rock concerts in stadiums to drive that design. The wiring you would use would be dictated by the amplifier manufacturers and specs provided by B&C--not by audio salesmen or internet forum people.
I think B&C when they made the iPAL subwoofers made them 1 ohm to keep the audiophiles away. B&C does not make drivers for consumer sound, too much of a hassle to deal with that group. They stay firmly in professional sound and did put out a video about the weird belief systems in sound. The video is 100% false but it does read like the marketing and beliefs many audiophiles vomit out for decades.

So if you want truely new... how does wrapped neo wire grab ya? They guys almost held their poker faces with the introductions of "B&C's new "audiophile" series of drivers". Why would B&C risk sales by pissing off audiophiles? Maybe, the people that purchase drivers from B&C are not audiophiles--they don't build drivers for that market. For clarity, I use B&C drivers in my HT system and thought the title was true...until the (tongue in cheek) humor made it obvious they are just yanking my chain.

Oddly enough, I'm willing to bet somebody emailed them about when the neo wrapped voicecoil 21 inch subs will be available.

Enjoy the humor--even audio people need to laugh at ourselves on occasion.

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post #239 of 244 Old 09-02-2018, 10:05 AM
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for me the funnest listening tests are with headphones and different cables. swapping out headphone cables lets you listen for yourself very easily. if you ever go to a headphone show, try it out...


also subwoofer cables are easier to test than speaker cables...lot easier to hear noise/humm

Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5, Magnepan LRS
Subs: Rythmik FV25HP, Rythmik FV15HP
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post #240 of 244 Old 09-02-2018, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabre View Post
Crazier are you spending 20,000 on speakers, that's justifiable, but it's not spending 200 on wires.
you don't want to understand or are not able to or whatever...
crazy is who is not able to compare and believes/imagines what he wants to.

i'm old enough to don't lie to myself and i am able to do some real and fair comparison!
the speakers are by far the best i've ever heard, even if i compare them with even more expensive ones.

on the other hand i have quite expensive cables as well (RCA: van den Hul MCD D102 or speaker van den Hul Magnum Hybrid), pictures added as proof.
i've compared them with "simple but decent" cables and there is definitely no difference!

i enjoy the great sound and i know where it comes from (recording, speakers, room with a reverb constantly at about 250ms from 200Hz up to 20kHz, Dirac Live as room optimizer etc.) and what doesn't matter like the cables!

THAT simple...
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