"Official" Yamaha RX-V*85/TSR-*850 Owners Thread - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 921 Old 04-10-2018, 04:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Arrow "Official" Yamaha RX-V*85/TSR-*850 Owners Thread

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For those taking their first steps in the home-theater hobby, the new Yamaha RX-V385 entry-level AV receiver might make an excellent starting point. It includes features normally found on more expensive AVRs while keeping a tight rein on the budget.

The 5.1-channel Yamaha RX-V385 is spec'd to deliver 100 watts/channel (1 kHz, 1 channel driven, 8 ohms, 0.9% THD) or, more realistically, 70 W/ch (20-20,000 Hz, 2 channels driven, 8 ohms, 0.09% THD). The front left and right channels can drive speakers down to 2 ohms (180 W/ch in that case), but the other speakers must be 6 ohms or higher.

Perhaps the biggest news is that the RX-V385 implements HDMI 2.1 in its four inputs and one output, making it one of the first products I know of to use the latest HDMI spec. The maximum bit rate is not specified, but the AVR is said to support 4K/60p 4:4:4 video, high dynamic range (HDR10, Dolby Vision, and HLG), and BT.2020 color. So, I assume the bitrate is 18 Gbps—the same as HDMI 2.0's top rate—which I will confirm as soon as possible. In addition, the RX-V385 will add eARC (Enhanced Audio Return Channel) in a firmware update.

Click here for more...
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post #2 of 921 Old 04-10-2018, 05:00 PM
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I take it, then, that lack of transceivers for HDMI 2.1 is no longer an obstacle for companies to ship products with HDMI 2.1. Perhaps there is a production volume issue. I wonder when we will be seeing HDMI 2.1 hardware in televisions and why we aren't seeing it already.

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post #3 of 921 Old 04-10-2018, 05:14 PM
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Yamaha RX-V385 AV Receiver Implements HDMI 2.1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
For those taking their first steps in the home-theater hobby, the new Yamaha RX-V385 entry-level AV receiver might make an excellent starting point. It includes features normally found on more expensive AVRs while keeping a tight rein on the budget.



The 5.1-channel Yamaha RX-V385 is spec'd to deliver 100 watts/channel (1 kHz, 1 channel driven, 8 ohms, 0.9% THD) or, more realistically, 70 W/ch (20-20,000 Hz, 2 channels driven, 8 ohms, 0.09% THD). The front left and right channels can drive speakers down to 2 ohms (180 W/ch in that case), but the other speakers must be 6 ohms or higher.



Perhaps the biggest news is that the RX-V385 implements HDMI 2.1 in its four inputs and one output, making it one of the first products I know of to use the latest HDMI spec. The maximum bit rate is not specified, but the AVR is said to support 4K/60p 4:4:4 video, high dynamic range (HDR10, Dolby Vision, and HLG), and BT.2020 color. So, I assume the bitrate is 18 Gbps—the same as HDMI 2.0's top rate—which I will confirm as soon as possible. In addition, the RX-V385 will add eARC (Enhanced Audio Return Channel) in a firmware update.



Click here for more...


Hey Scott,



I thought if it was HDMI 2.1 it needed to support 48 Gpbs? If not, what would be the difference between this receiver and the Denon 6400H which is HDMI 2.0 but also supports eARC? Man, I’m confused.



Anyway, still waiting for a new podcast from you.



Thanks

Dan

EDIT: Changed 38 to 48.

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post #4 of 921 Old 04-10-2018, 11:52 PM
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This is not a true HDMI 2.1 product, just a HDMI 2.0b with 2.1 features (eARC). Just like Denon has done with their 2017 receivers (X3400H and up).

Support for full HDMI 2.1 features will be gradual, 2017-2018 will be the year of eARC and 2K HFR/VRR, 2019 will be the year with more features that will require more bandwidth than 2.0b will provide.
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post #5 of 921 Old 04-11-2018, 04:48 AM
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No ethernet or wifi?
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post #6 of 921 Old 04-11-2018, 05:02 AM
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I'll personally wait for something implementing VRR, QMS and eARC. Dynamic HDR is unclear to me, as Dolby Vision works with current equipment (maybe it's needed for the new HDR10+).
38Gbps are needed for 8K resolutions and higher framerates at 4K. Those I personally feel as less relevant for my needs (and industry support, too).

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post #7 of 921 Old 04-11-2018, 05:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dancolt View Post
Hey Scott,

I thought if it was HDMI 2.1 it needed to support 38 Gpbs? If not, what would be the difference between this receiver and the Denon 6400H which is HDMI 2.0 but also supports eARC? Man, I’m confused.

Anyway, still waiting for a new podcast from you.

Thanks
Dan
48 not 38. And IMO, if it doesn't support 48 Gbps, it's not really HDMI 2.1. The whole point of 2.1 is much greater bandwidth.
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post #8 of 921 Old 04-11-2018, 05:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gorman42 View Post
I'll personally wait for something implementing VRR, QMS and eARC. Dynamic HDR is unclear to me, as Dolby Vision works with current equipment (maybe it's needed for the new HDR10+).
38Gbps are needed for 8K resolutions and higher framerates at 4K. Those I personally feel as less relevant for my needs (and industry support, too).
Both Dolby Vision and HDR10+ work with current HDMI 2.0a/b. From my understanding though HDR10+ isn’t the real Dynamic HDR10, it’s a Samsung pushed kludge, and the real Dynamic HDR10 will come out when HDMI 2.1 starts spreading.

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Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post
48 not 38. And IMO, if it doesn't support 48 Gbps, it's not really HDMI 2.1. The whole point of 2.1 is much greater bandwidth.
Yup. Full HDMI 2.1 means 4 TDMS channels @ 12gbps each, so 48gbps total (compared to 2.0 with 3 TDMS channels @ 6gbps).


That being said, if this AVR can support 2160P60 @ 4:4:4, then at 10 bits would mean 22.28gbps, 12 bits = 26.73gbps. Outside of maybe a PC, not sure what else can source that type of content.

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Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post
48 not 38. And IMO, if it doesn't support 48 Gbps, it's not really HDMI 2.1. The whole point of 2.1 is much greater bandwidth.


Updated my post and agreed.

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post #11 of 921 Old 04-11-2018, 06:16 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gorman42 View Post
I'll personally wait for something implementing VRR, QMS and eARC. Dynamic HDR is unclear to me, as Dolby Vision works with current equipment (maybe it's needed for the new HDR10+).
38Gbps are needed for 8K resolutions and higher framerates at 4K. Those I personally feel as less relevant for my needs (and industry support, too).
A mere increase from 18 gbps mode to 20 gbps (a valid HDMI 2.1 option) would open up 4K60 HDR10 at 4:4:4, which is something many would certainly appreciate and want immediately, and could likely be done easier / earlier than full 48 gbps.

40 gbps is enough for 4K120 HDR10 in 4:4:4 too. And of course, double that in 4:2:0. (or use 4:2:0 to get 8K60).

Also don't forget DCC lossless compression, which is an extra 3X more bandwidth on top of any increase in raw HDMI transmission bandwidth. So even if all they do is add DCC to HDMI 2.0 chips they could get 4K120 HDR10 in 4:4:4 probably (which is exactly three times what current 18 gbps chips can do without DCC, if you do the math). Current 18 gbps can do 4:2:2 HDR10 at 4K60, so 2 / 3 of the 3X DCC multiplier brings you to 4K120 HDR10 4:2:2, and an extra 1/3rd (or 50% more bandwidth) gets you up to 4:4:4.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goldenager70 View Post
No ethernet or wifi?
No Ethernet or Wi-Fi, just Bluetooth for connectivity... This is a budget 5.1 entry-level receiver...
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Can I ask something stupid?


Why don't they just use Ethernet cables for interconnects? It's existing tech where chips are cheap. Is this all about creating proprietary formats that require users to upgrade every few years to have the latest and greatest? With CPU speeds and everything else, everything these days should be upgradeable via a software update. Fine, the companies can charge for the software updates. I don't care. It just seems stupid to have so much be hardware dependent.


OK ... Ethernet would require overhead for packet headers so I guess custom solutions actually require less bandwidth. Still seems stupid.

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Originally Posted by kfh227 View Post
Can I ask something stupid?


Why don't they just use Ethernet cables for interconnects? It's existing tech where chips are cheap. Is this all about creating proprietary formats that require users to upgrade every few years to have the latest and greatest? With CPU speeds and everything else, everything these days should be upgradeable via a software update. Fine, the companies can charge for the software updates. I don't care. It just seems stupid to have so much be hardware dependent.


OK ... Ethernet would require overhead for packet headers so I guess custom solutions actually require less bandwidth. Still seems stupid.

Because, HDCP. Also needing five 10G copper SFPs to do what one 48gbps HDMI cable can do.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kfh227 View Post
Why don't they just use Ethernet cables for interconnects?
Fast Ethernet or Gigabit Ethernet will work just fine but ONLY with lossy video compression and lossless audio. Now you can ask yourself why the world has been stuck with the uncompressed video signal transfer that HDMI is capable instead of just carrying the raw video material that is actually generated for DVD/Blu-ray/etc.).

You know..., the world of audio and video streaming that has begun will take care of the HDMI interconnects, since will be needed less and less every year, devices will be connected more trough Internet than (local) HDMI...
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eARC's going to mean that receivers finally become audio devices. As long as a receiver has eARC I don't see the value of HDMI 2.1 because whatever TV you get will have the latest and you won't need to upgrade receiver just to keep up with video standards.
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This news bodes well for the Yamaha CX-A5200 having HDMI 2.1 (to some extent), possibly coming out later this year.

I hope it's affordable in Canada otherwise I'll have to buy it in the US.
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post #18 of 921 Old 04-11-2018, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by dfa973 View Post
This is not a true HDMI 2.1 product, just a HDMI 2.0b with 2.1 features (eARC). Just like Denon has done with their 2017 receivers (X3400H and up).

Support for full HDMI 2.1 features will be gradual, 2017-2018 will be the year of eARC and 2K HFR/VRR, 2019 will be the year with more features that will require more bandwidth than 2.0b will provide.
Exactly. Seeing HDMI 2.1 term used for marketing a 2.1 feature, when it’s still HDMI 2.0b is just a blatant move by the HDMI.org to hype HDMI 2.1 before it’s time. Now we start another period of dealer/consumer confusion.

See https://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.ph...&id=1516615699

Quote:
The organization added that if a product implements some of the features of HDMI 2.1, it can be sold as a HDMI 2.1 compatible product. However, the manufacturer must specify which features of HDMI 2.1 are supported.
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Version vs. Features - if everyone stuck to the guidelines and highlighted the New Features this AVR supports and avoids mentioning HDMI Version numbers it may be a lot simpler! The rules have been in place (and ignored) since 1st Jan 2012!

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@Scott Wilkinson , can you please edit de title of the article so it makes it clear that the RX-V385 implements a FEATURE of the HDMI 2.1 standard over a HDMI 2.0 port?

Example: Yamaha RX-V385 AV Receiver Implements HDMI 2.1 eARC

or just: Yamaha RX-V385 AV Receiver Implements HDMI eARC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnAV View Post
Exactly. Seeing HDMI 2.1 term used for marketing a 2.1 feature, when it’s still HDMI 2.0b is just a blatant move by the HDMI.org to hype HDMI 2.1 before it’s time. Now we start another period of dealer/consumer confusion.

See https://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.ph...&id=1516615699
I'm hoping they at least increase to 20 gbps from the 18 gbps in current HDMI 2.0 chips, because then HDR10 would work at 4K60 in 4:4:4, in other words, those features would be usable at the same time. Currently you have to drop to 4:2:2. A mere 10% HDMI bandwidth boost would allow 4:4:4 HDR10.

This would be a terrific boon for PC use and gamers too.

But, I agree that it's likely that the first batch of "HDMI 2.1" electronics only implement features and not bandwidth increases. We'll see.
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Yamaha RX-V385 AV Receiver Implements HDMI 2.1

No it doesn't
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post #23 of 921 Old 04-12-2018, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rxp91 View Post
eARC's going to mean that receivers finally become audio devices. As long as a receiver has eARC I don't see the value of HDMI 2.1 because whatever TV you get will have the latest and you won't need to upgrade receiver just to keep up with video standards.
Exactly. For AVRs eARC is the most important HDMI 2.1 feature. The rest is nice to have but not essential.
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For HDMI eARC to work, you need that ALL the devices in the HDMI chain to support the eARC feature, regardless of the HDMI version (2.0/2.1).

1. TV - at this time there are no TV's with eARC (LG 2017/2018 OLED's/SUHD's are not true eARC devices - still using HDMI ARC with Dolby Digital Plus for sending Dolby Atmos to the AVR/soundbar)
2. AVR - there are several receivers from Denon/Marantz and now Yamaha that support HDMI 2.0b + eARC feature
3. Blu-ray, media player, HTPC, etc. - at this time there are no external players/sources with eARC

So, we are stuck with just a single device from the HDMI chain that supports this feature.

2018 will be a year of transition. LG has no eARC TV's for 2018, so only in 2019 we can expect eARC.
On the players front all is quiet...
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post #25 of 921 Old 04-14-2018, 11:10 PM
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Yamaha will not market a product as HDMI 2.1 if its not!

It still does not carry all expected features of HDMI 2.1, but I'm sure it have the full hardware requirements for HDMI 2.1, such as bandwidth and pin configuration. Anything else can be implemented by firmware update...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dfa973 View Post
For HDMI eARC to work, you need that ALL the devices in the HDMI chain to support the eARC feature, regardless of the HDMI version (2.0/2.1).

1. TV - at this time there are no TV's with eARC (LG 2017/2018 OLED's/SUHD's are not true eARC devices - still using HDMI ARC with Dolby Digital Plus for sending Dolby Atmos to the AVR/soundbar)
2. AVR - there are several receivers from Denon/Marantz and now Yamaha that support HDMI 2.0b + eARC feature
3. Blu-ray, media player, HTPC, etc. - at this time there are no external players/sources with eARC

So, we are stuck with just a single device from the HDMI chain that supports this feature.
Wut? So if my HDMI route goes HTPC -> TV -> AVR, the HTPC must support eARC? Is there currently no way at all to send unmeddled-with audio from an HTPC, then?
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post #27 of 921 Old 04-16-2018, 12:55 AM
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the HTPC must support eARC?
Yes, the source must support eARC, so the TV will know to route the audio part to the AVR, otherwise to route the audio to the AVR you will need to use the optical output of the TV or the classic HDMI ARC - so no lossless audio to AVR.
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Yes, the source must support eARC, so the TV will know to route the audio part to the AVR, otherwise to route the audio to the AVR you will need to use the optical output of the TV or the classic HDMI ARC - so no lossless audio to AVR.
Not that I know for sure, but are you sure about that?

I thought any HDMI device would send the high quality audio to the TV via standard HDMI and then the TV would send it to the receiver via eARC. That is what I assumed anyway.

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If you can plug in HDMI 2.1 directly to your display when use another HDMI 2.1 cable to forward the audio back to the AVR, that would be ideal, since you don't need 48 gbps for audio, only for video, and you could get by with 18 gbps + eARC and be future proof that way.

Use the TV or projector as the HDMI switch. With guaranteed no extra latency compared to routing it all through an AVR.

Of course you'll need a longer cable back from the display to the AVR, but since it's only 18 gbps it should be cheaper. Actually even 10 gbps would be fine, just for Atmos.
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post #30 of 921 Old 04-18-2018, 11:51 PM
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Originally Posted by dancolt View Post
Not that I know for sure, but are you sure about that?
I thought any HDMI device would send the high quality audio to the TV via standard HDMI and then the TV would send it to the receiver via eARC. That is what I assumed anyway.
Sorry for the bad news, seems that the eARC feature must be supported by the ALL devices in the HDMI chain, so YES, the sources MUST support eARC so that the TV will route the desired audio track back to the AVR/soundbar.

From the official HDMI Forum org website FAQ:
Quote:
Q: Will the existing ARC-enabled products work with new products that use eARC?
A: Maybe. Manufacturers can produce products that are compatible with both eARC and ARC. However, eARC is not defined to be backwards compatible with ARC.
You can see that manufactures CAN add eARC to their classic HDMI 2.0 device, but only if they can (technically) and IF they want to do it (instead of manufacturing a new model).
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