The *Official* Emotiva RMC-1 owners thread - Page 27 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #781 of 853 Old 06-20-2019, 04:16 PM
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The XMC-1 is discontinued...

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post #782 of 853 Old 06-21-2019, 04:24 AM
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A a joint statement about the RMC-1 and Dirac Live will be agreed with Emotiva and should come shortly...

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Warning: My posts might be biased even if in good faith, I work for Dirac Research :-)
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post #783 of 853 Old 06-21-2019, 04:43 AM
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So... it takes two to tango?

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post #784 of 853 Old 06-21-2019, 08:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dinamigym View Post
I was on the verge of purchasing several times. I’ll be honest...of all the reported issues many have with the RMC-1 the show stopper for me is the crazy pops and momentary distortion many experience at times in their speakers. Maybe they are harmless noises, maybe not but I’m not willing to take the chance that some freak sound destroys any of my speakers. All it takes is one freak incident which seems fairly common with the piece right now. I’ll beta test a processor but not at the risk of my speakers.


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Problem is you never know if the next one will be harmless or if it will destroy your subs... One should not have to play Russian Roulette with a ~5K processor.

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post #785 of 853 Old 06-21-2019, 08:42 AM
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I like to be positive, but I did just post this finally on the Emotiva forum:


"I'm starting to get annoyed. And I don't annoy easily.

1. Emotiva can't create the audio drop outs but refuse to run the setup the way people are suggesting you to... I wouldn't be surprised at this point to find out you are not even running Atmos or DTSX when attempting to find the drop outs. And to make matters worse you have been offered devices from customers to test that have the issue!!!!


2. Emotiva engineers just found out that Atmos ceiling speakers are a thing...

3. I was told at Axpona 2019 (this year) that Atmos ceiling speakers are a matrixed source vs object based... WHAT!!!!!

4. The Audio dropouts have NOTHING to do with the bandwidth so STOP looking into it. WASTE OF TIME! Audio is usually the last thing to mess up if your bandwidth sucks.


5. Your Processors are wired "in phase" on the XLR outputs, but your Amps are wired "out of phase" on the XLR inputs...




Seriously, what the heck is going on over there."

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post #786 of 853 Old 06-21-2019, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post
I like to be positive, but I did just post this finally on the Emotiva forum:


"I'm starting to get annoyed. And I don't annoy easily.

1. Emotiva can't create the audio drop outs but refuse to run the setup the way people are suggesting you to... I wouldn't be surprised at this point to find out you are not even running Atmos or DTSX when attempting to find the drop outs. And to make matters worse you have been offered devices from customers to test that have the issue!!!!


2. Emotiva engineers just found out that Atmos ceiling speakers are a thing...

3. I was told at Axpona 2019 (this year) that Atmos ceiling speakers are a matrixed source vs object based... WHAT!!!!!

4. The Audio dropouts have NOTHING to do with the bandwidth so STOP looking into it. WASTE OF TIME! Audio is usually the last thing to mess up if your bandwidth sucks.


5. Your Processors are wired "in phase" on the XLR outputs, but your Amps are wired "out of phase" on the XLR inputs...

Seriously, what the heck is going on over there."

2. I suspect t they are not much of "a thing" for folks buying $5000 processors. The Atmos up-firing speaker is not the pinnacle of Dolby technology


3. The allowing matrixing of additional .6 from the .4 height channels.


5. Agreed. It is good new that the processors are "in phase". I have no idea why the amps continue to be wired this way.


- Rich

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post #787 of 853 Old 06-21-2019, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post
2. I suspect t they are not much of "a thing" for folks buying $5000 processors. The Atmos up-firing speaker is not the pinnacle of Dolby technology


3. The allowing matrixing of additional .6 from the .4 height channels.


5. Agreed. It is good new that the processors are "in phase". I have no idea why the amps continue to be wired this way.


- Rich
2. Read carefully... they knew about bouncy house speakers and front and rear height.... NOT actual ceiling speakers.

3. I am not talking upmixers... Atmos is object based NOT matrixes.

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post #788 of 853 Old 06-21-2019, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by SOWK View Post
2. Read carefully... they knew about bouncy house speakers and front and rear height.... NOT actual ceiling speakers.

3. I am not talking upmixers... Atmos is object based NOT matrixes.

2. Of course they know about bouncy speakers. They are wired separately so they can be configured as ceiling speakers. What's the problem?


3. There are upmixers and then there is 7.1.4 Atmos content. From what I have read, the extra .2 channels are matrixed from the .4. If the objects are not mapped to .6, is that an Emotiva problem or an Atmos problem?


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post #789 of 853 Old 06-21-2019, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post
2. Of course they know about bouncy speakers. They are wired separately so they can be configured as ceiling speakers. What's the problem?


3. There are upmixers and then there is 7.1.4 Atmos content. From what I have read, the extra .2 channels are matrixed from the .4. If the objects are not mapped to .6, is that an Emotiva problem or an Atmos problem?


- Rich

Again.. I think you are miss understanding... They didn't know Atmos Ceiling Speakers were a thing till this year!


and second... Atmos is not locked to 7.1.4 except on some Disney titles.
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post #790 of 853 Old 06-21-2019, 09:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post
Emotiva engineers just found out that Atmos ceiling speakers are a thing...
Where did they think the height speakers were placed, high up on the walls? (used to be that way before Atmos, but that changed almost 5 years ago)
Quote:
I was told at Axpona 2019 (this year) that Atmos ceiling speakers are a matrixed source vs object based... WHAT!!!!!
True, there is no matrixing during Atmos decoding. However, DTS:X decoding uses a combination of objects and matrixing.

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post #791 of 853 Old 06-21-2019, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by SOWK View Post
Again.. I think you are miss understanding... They didn't know Atmos Ceiling Speakers were a thing till this year!


and second... Atmos is not locked to 7.1.4 except on some Disney titles.
Where are you getting this information that Emotiva engineering did not about Atmos ceiling speaker?
Atmos is ceiling speakers, bouncy speakers, and now soundbars.
IMO, Emotiva should not be concerned with bouncy and soundbar speaker configurations since this is not the target audience for a $5000 or even $3000 processor.
They can be configured as if they were real speakers and extra processing to make them work better is not a priority.

From what I have read on the Emotiva forums, matrixing was discussed for Atmos .4 (and DTS) titles when the processor is configured with .6 height channels.
I may well be misunderstanding but obviously Emotiva Atmos processors support Atmos object based audio.
At one time, they were discussing their own upmixer but that has been shelved and they will support Dolby upmixer for Dolby and DTS upmixer for DTS which are restrictions imposed by Dolby and DTS.

The RMC-1 has not been submitted for review. They may be waiting for stability, Dirac, or both.

- Rich

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post #792 of 853 Old 06-21-2019, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post
Emotiva engineers just found out that Atmos ceiling speakers are a thing...
Where did they think the height speakers were placed, high up on the walls? (used to be that way before Atmos, but that changed almost 5 years ago)
Quote:
I was told at Axpona 2019 (this year) that Atmos ceiling speakers are a matrixed source vs object based... WHAT!!!!!
True, there is no matrixing during Atmos decoding. However, DTS:X decoding uses a combination of objects and matrixing.
Yes, they thought they could only be front height and rear height.

And yes to the second part. But I was only talking about Atmos as I am well aware of the limitations of DTS X non Pro.

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post #793 of 853 Old 06-21-2019, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by SOWK View Post
Yes, they thought they could only be front height and rear height.
Surprising, considering ceiling placement info had been available since June of 2014 (tomorrow will be the 5 year anniversary).
Quote:
I was only talking about Atmos as I am well aware of the limitations of DTS X non Pro.
I meant it as a limitation of Atmos, since it cannot take advantage of matrixing (DTS:X can).

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post #794 of 853 Old 06-21-2019, 10:13 AM
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Where are you getting this information that Emotiva engineering did not about Atmos ceiling speaker?

I believe the post had been either deleted or I don't remember where it was posted. But if you go over to the Emotiva Forum right now Lonnie just confirmed to me they had a misunderstanding of it (point 2.) and they have since corrected it. It was supposedly corrected in Firmware 1.3


From Lonnie:


"2. Not sure what you mean by this unless you are referring to the Heights vs. Tops vs. Reflective. As the spec reads the Heights vs. Tops was a little vague and somewhat interchangeable but that has been corrected."
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post #795 of 853 Old 06-22-2019, 10:28 AM
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I think we may be confusing ourselves now.

The folks working Axpona, CEDIA, CES, etc. are not Emotiva engineering. @[email protected] use to attend the shows on behalf of engineering. He was a great resource to fact-check Dan and Lonnie but left Emotiva over a year ago.
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Again.. I think you are miss understanding... They didn't know Atmos Ceiling Speakers were a thing till this year!
This is not accurate. They've been demoing the RMC-1 with ceiling overheads (TOPS) since the beginning (Emofest 2017). It was HEIGHTS that they thought they didn't have to support.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post
Where are you getting this information that Emotiva engineering did not about Atmos ceiling speaker?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post
I believe the post had been either deleted or I don't remember where it was posted. But if you go over to the Emotiva Forum right now Lonnie just confirmed to me they had a misunderstanding of it (point 2.) and they have since corrected it. It was supposedly corrected in Firmware 1.3


From Lonnie:


"2. Not sure what you mean by this unless you are referring to the Heights vs. Tops vs. Reflective. As the spec reads the Heights vs. Tops was a little vague and somewhat interchangeable but that has been corrected."
@SOWK I believe the posts you are recalling began with this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by RetiredandLovingIt View Post
Following from the Emotiva Lounge


"Hello All,

Sorry for being absent for a while. So many things going on, so little time.
{SNIP}
Dolby Tops and Heights. Dolby dropped a bomb on us a few weeks back. We had to add the option for Tops and Heights, not just the Heights we had in there. This meant a rewrite of the menu system, as well as all the back end code for exceptions and such as well ask a ton of code for the DSP and FPGA.
Numerous other audio fixes for various PCM configurations and such.
{SNIP}
Best regards,

Lonnie"
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post #796 of 853 Old 06-22-2019, 11:42 AM
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"Dolby Tops and Heights. Dolby dropped a bomb on us a few weeks back. We had to add the option for Tops and Heights, not just the Heights we had in there."


Not sure why that would be a bomb; weren't Tops and Heights always part of the specification?
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post #797 of 853 Old 06-22-2019, 01:46 PM
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Not sure why that would be a bomb; weren't Tops and Heights always part of the specification?
Always.
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post #798 of 853 Old 06-22-2019, 02:22 PM
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Wow.

Reading the last few pages or so is just scary. That a company would build a product at a price of $5000 and not have complete and total understanding of every detail of how it is to be used, I find hard to comprehend.

This company should stick to building amplifiers (and maybe speakers). They kept stepping all over themselves with their previous high end processor and apparently have not improved much. I've had great success with their amps. I tried one of their pre-amps but it had a huge bug in it and I returned it.
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post #799 of 853 Old 06-22-2019, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
"Dolby Tops and Heights. Dolby dropped a bomb on us a few weeks back. We had to add the option for Tops and Heights, not just the Heights we had in there."




Not sure why that would be a bomb; weren't Tops and Heights always part of the specification?
The bomb apparently was that Dolby forced Emotiva to support Front & Rear Height locations on their 9.1.6 SSP. Last CEDIA they announced 11.5.8 expansion (Jan. 2019 release). I wonder how they planned to get the .8 with just TOPS?
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post #800 of 853 Old 06-22-2019, 06:29 PM
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Wow.



Reading the last few pages or so is just scary. That a company would build a product at a price of $5000 and not have complete and total understanding of every detail of how it is to be used, I find hard to comprehend.



This company should stick to building amplifiers (and maybe speakers). They kept stepping all over themselves with their previous high end processor and apparently have not improved much. I've had great success with their amps. I tried one of their pre-amps but it had a huge bug in it and I returned it.
Maybe they should have done a bit more reading here in the Atmos threads then they would at least have the same level of understanding as your average AVS immersive audio enthusiast.

Scary that a company can try to develop an immersive audio processor with such a poor understanding of the formats especially when the home format is already 5 years old.
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post #801 of 853 Old 06-22-2019, 06:42 PM
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They've been demoing the RMC-1 with ceiling overheads (TOPS) since the beginning (Emofest 2017). It was HEIGHTS that they thought they didn't have to support.

@SOWK I believe the posts you are recalling began with this:
Read what they posted....

"Dolby Tops and Heights. Dolby dropped a bomb on us a few weeks back. We had to add the option for Tops and Heights, not just the Heights we had in there."

Yes the people setting up the AXPONA booth used ceiling.. But they were programmed as front and rear heights by their software engineers internally in the unit!

The fact they physically set them up as TOP when only having it programmed for heights just makes it even WORSE!!!!!

So my post was accurate.

And I am not confusing myself.

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post #802 of 853 Old 06-22-2019, 11:22 PM
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The fact they physically set them up as TOP when only having it programmed for heights just makes it even WORSE!!!!!



So my post was accurate.



And I am not confusing myself.
I think you are right. I don't know who's on first anymore.

Do believe the unit's sonics are beyond what the Marantz AV8805 provides?
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post #803 of 853 Old 06-23-2019, 01:12 AM
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I think you are right. I don't know who's on first anymore.

Do believe the unit's sonics are beyond what the Marantz AV8805 provides?
I’ll let you know if it ever sees the light of day in my primary system... LMAO!

Right now it’s being used to convert DTS X and Atmos to Stereo 3.5mm for my Dbox Controller. That’s about all I trust it to do at the moment.
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post #804 of 853 Old 06-23-2019, 05:20 AM
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I think you are right. I don't know who's on first anymore.

Do believe the unit's sonics are beyond what the Marantz AV8805 provides?
Once it is officially up and running with Dirac (maybe 12-31-27), it will easily better the Marantz sonically. The difference between Audyssey and Dirac is night and day. We conducted a blind test 3 or 4 years ago and not even close.
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Once it is officially up and running with Dirac (maybe 12-31-27), it will easily better the Marantz sonically. The difference between Audyssey and Dirac is night and day. We conducted a blind test 3 or 4 years ago and not even close.
Since I’m not aware of any AVR or prepro with both (and it wouldn’t make sense to build one), how was that test conducted?
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post #806 of 853 Old 06-23-2019, 06:20 AM
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Since I’m not aware of any AVR or prepro with both (and it wouldn’t make sense to build one), how was that test conducted?
Very detailed thread HERE:

In a few short words: I built an XLR switch box and had the two processors connected to it - one with Dirac and one with Audyssey. We matched levels exactly and the switch box was behind the screen (hence blind). The differences WITHOUT room correction enabled (interesting since one was a $2500 processor and the other was a $25,000 processor) were subtle. When enabled, the differences were anything but.

If you want to know more specifics, please go read the thread.
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post #807 of 853 Old 06-23-2019, 06:47 AM
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If one only corrects to Schroeder, room correction becomes less of an issue. Audyssey, ARC, and Dirac are more similar than different on the lower frequencies. Without question, Dirac takes a substantial lead over Audyssey when doing full-range correction (to my ears). The best decision I ever made was buying speakers that measure flat, have great off-axis response, and treating the primary reflection points (JBL M2). This has freed me from the room correction merry-go round and was the primary reason I left Dirac Live and went back to the Marantz 8805. I no longer need the upper frequency correction. I am a huge fan of Dirac Live, but the boutique receiver brands that currently offer Dirac Live have too many glitches and gremlins that just annoyed me. I was tired of having my theater being a hobby. I have reached a point where I just want to set it, forget it, and enjoy it. The mainstream receiver manufactures have hundreds of engineers to the boutique brand's two or three. They get the code done correctly and if/when there are issues, they are dealt with expediently. There is something to be said for ease of use and stability. The Marantz 8805 may not be the grail of audio nirvana, but it a very solid, stable offering that sounds pretty darn good to my ears. The addition of the Audyssey app and the features it provided brought me back to the Denon/Marnatz family. I am happy to be back after my boutique brand journeys. With that said, if MiniDSP offers a 2x4 like product with the new Dirac Live sub correction software that was announced, I will be all over that.

Last edited by Molon_Labe; 06-23-2019 at 07:14 AM.
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post #808 of 853 Old 06-23-2019, 07:20 AM
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If one only corrects to Schroeder, room correction becomes less of an issue. Audyssey, ARC, and Dirac are more similar than different on the lower frequencies. Without question, Dirac takes a substantial lead over Audyssey when doing full-range correction (to my ears). The best decision I ever made was buying speakers that measure flat, have great off-axis response, and treating the primary reflection points (JBL M2). This has freed me from the room correction merry-go round and was the primary reason I left Dirac Live and went back to the Marantz 8805. I no longer need the upper frequency correction. I am a huge fan of Dirac Live, but the boutique receiver brands that currently offer Dirac Live have too many glitches and gremlins that just annoyed me. I was tired of having my theater being a hobby. I have reached a point where I just want to set it, forget it, and enjoy it. The mainstream receiver manufactures have hundreds of engineers to the boutique brand's two or three. They get the code done correctly and if/when there are issues, they are dealt with expediently. There is something to be said for ease of use and convince. The Marantz 8805 may not be the grail of audio nirvana, but it a very solid, stable offering that sounds pretty darn good to my ears. The addition of the Audyssey app and the features it provided brought me back to the Denon/Marnatz family. I am happy to be back after my boutique brand journeys.
Curious? What processor did you own that was running Dirac Live?

Regardless, we see this a bit differently. I have a huge amount of money invested in my audio equipment and a fully treated listening space. I chose to spend the extra money to extract all I could from it.

As for only correcting to Shroeder, that does not change my comments on Audyssey vs Dirac (I have only run Dirac on a Datasat RS20i, the Datasat LS10, and a PC. And during the 4 years I owned the RS20i, I had zero problems. Datasat provided firmware upgrades as necessary. It just worked.). The bass and integration of the bass to the rest of the spectrum was and is far superior with those two processors vs the Audyssey processor. Furthermore, the overall envelopment of Dirac over Audyssey was clearly better.

I am not suggesting one can not get a lot of enjoyment from the 8805, but I (and others who participated in these blind test) certainly believed the differences we heard between the two room correction approaches were largely in favor of Dirac. Admittedly, there is some comfort in doing business with a company with the resources of Marantz. Is it worth the HUGE price differential to get the extra performance? THAT is purely a subjective decision. For me it was. For most, it would not be.
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post #809 of 853 Old 06-23-2019, 08:07 AM
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I ran Dirac Live first on two MiniDSP 88a's bolted onto a Marantz 8802a and then moved on to NAD. Within that time frame, I also tried an AVM60 with ARC. You mentioned that the systems sounded more alike than different without RC. Did you do any testing on just the low frequencies being corrected vs full range? Just curious. Don't get me wrong, I am a big fan of Dirac Live and agree it is superior to Audyssey. I also agree that the Datasat and Trinnov are not plagued by the issues hitting the sub 10k processors. With that said, we are now dealing with a different bracket of hardware and cost of entry. In the sub 5k market, the Marantz 8805 is the sweet spot in my opinion. Maybe Emtoiva and Monoprice will dethrone it. I am open to both pulling it off and would consider a purchase, but as of right now I have reservations.
In one scenario, we corrected to about 300Hz. That easily allows one to hear how much better the bass is (was) and how much better it integrated with the rest of the spectrum.

In the sub $5000 range, you are probably correct but if Monoprice (or maybe even Emotiva) get a stable product to market, that could change.

I am still amazed at how Audyssey so dropped the ball. They literally OWNED the market but apparently got too comfortable with their market position and got run over. Dirac appears to be the "go to" solution for those who don't want to invent their own.
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post #810 of 853 Old 06-23-2019, 08:08 AM
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Once it is officially up and running with Dirac (maybe 12-31-27), it will easily better the Marantz sonically. The difference between Audyssey and Dirac is night and day. We conducted a blind test 3 or 4 years ago and not even close.
You should do a new Audyssey vs Dirac Live comparison with a 2018 Denon/Marantz model and run Audyssey with the latest Editor app. I say this because 2.5 years ago I did a side by side processors comparison. By that time I had in my system (90% music use) a Marantz SR7008 + Parasound Halo P5 combo. The Marantz SR7008 covering movies and the Parasound P5 covering 2 ch music as by that time I hated Audyssey. I just cannot stand it for music. It was killing my speakers response and the sound was harsh and fatiguing so the P5 was the solution because of the amazing HT Bypass and its natural sound. After owning that combo for 2 years, I decided to try the Anthem AVM60 and the Emotiva XMC-1 with Dirac Live. ARC was an improvement compared to Audyssey but not enough to take the P5 out of the rack. Then tried the XMC-1 with Dirac Live and that was the sweetest sounding processor I had ever listened too. ARC and Audyssey sounded too processed for me, like a bad recording with too much dynamic compression. Dirac Live sounded natural, like the Parasound P5 without any processing. I liked that so the AVM60 when back to the dealer and sold the Marantz SR7008 and the Parasound P5. I had a great 1st year (May 2017 to May 2018) until I got the V3 HDMI board. After May 2018, the next 8 months passed literally working for free for Emotiva as a guinea pig testing firmwares on my XMC-1. Finally, after V5.4B2 they got it right (80%) and I had a working XMC-1 again. But I got bitten by the ATMOS upgrade bug so by March this year decided to get a Denon X6500H to use it only for movies. I had the Denon X6500H running through the XMC-1 7.1 analog inputs so for music the XMC-1 and the X6500H for movies. When I got the X6500H the Editor app was cutting the low end below 20Hz so I ran Audyssey with the receiver and I didn't like the results like with the Marantz so the XMC-1 was a keeper. Another point that lead me to keep the XMC-1 was Dolby Digital PLIIx as I like that up mixer for music better than the new Dolby Digital Surround. For about 2 months ran dual processors and I was totally fine. When Emotiva announced the XMC-1 trade in program is when I decided to check better on the Denon as keeping the XMC-1 would have been staying married to a discontinued processor and getting the XMC-2 without 7.1 analog inputs was the end for the dual processor setup. After the Editor app got updated, decided to run Audyssey with the Editor app. After a few runs and turning OFF midrange compensation and limiting Audyssey filter from 500Hz and above, I was able to get GREAT sound from the Denon X6500H. To the point that switching on the fly processors, I wasn't able to tell the difference between the XMC-1 and the Denon X6500H. The gap between Audyssey and Dirac Live is so close right now that at this point you can't go wrong with either. In fact, I found AURO 2D my preferred up mixer for listening to music. It reminds me a LOT to Logic 7 from HK.

My days as a guinea pig for Emotiva are done. Last week sold my XMC-1 for good and decided to stay with a trusted, fully working and great sounding receiver like the Denon X6500H. Life is too short to waste it troubleshooting processors for free. Just my 2 cents!!

Enrico Castagnetti @ Rythmik Audio - Dialing In Rythmik Audio Subwoofers - REW for macOS
Media Room: Sierra Towers w/RAAL, Horizon w/RAAL, Sierra 2s & Lunas | Rythmik F12SE(x2) + FV25HP | Denon X6500H | Panny 820 + ATV 4K | Bluesound Node 2 | 92" Stewart ST100 | Sony VW295ES |
Desktop: Dynaudio BM5 mkIII | Rythmik L22 | Apogee Quartet | 27" iMac| Bedroom: B&W 685 S2 | Rythmik LVX12 | Marantz SR6013 | Sony X700 + ATV 4K | Sony XBR-65Z9D |

Last edited by enricoclaudio; 06-23-2019 at 08:36 AM.
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