The *Official* Emotiva RMC-1 owners thread - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 853 Old 12-09-2018, 06:14 PM
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As a RMC owner, knowing the bashing that normally accompanies talking about Emotiva processors on this forum might be why more RMC owners don't post here. At least that is why I don't. This thread is barely two pages and most of it deals with angst some non-owners feel towards Emotiva.

This post might get deleted. But I wanted to share why I don't openly post about my experience with the RMC on AVS. Any useful information I may share can easily be lost in pages of complaints, not questions, from non-owners. I have answered a few RMC questions via PM's only when time allows and that is likely how I will continue to share info about the RMC on AVS.
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post #62 of 853 Old 12-09-2018, 06:32 PM
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There are 62 posts in this thread, counting this one, so it's a bit premature for people to be complaining about pages of negative posts by non-owners. For the most part, I think the questions and commentary have been fairly reasonable in this thread, especially when compared to lots of other threads on this and other forums. A lot of people have been waiting a very long time for Emotiva to release the RMC-1, so I'm actually surprised there haven't been a LOT more posts in this thread at this point from both owners and potential owners. Hopefully Emotiva will be able to get the initial kinks worked out relatively quickly and end up with a great product as a result. Despite the initial issues, it sounds like they've delivered one heck of a hardware platform with the RMC-1. For now, I'm very happy with my Marantz AV8805. If/when Emotiva gets things more stable and has more inventory to sell, I may consider switching. I don't need support for more speakers beyond 7.2, but would use the extra outputs to simplify my biamp configuration, as my understanding is that the outputs can be configured for that; I'm currently using Y cables with the Marantz.
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post #63 of 853 Old 12-10-2018, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deewan View Post
I have answered a few RMC questions via PM's only when time allows and that is likely how I will continue to share info about the RMC on AVS.

I hope you'll reconsider, especially in light of markrubin's previous post.

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post #64 of 853 Old 12-10-2018, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mashie Saldana View Post
Can you run the RMC-1 in any other 15ch mode than 9.1.6 such as 11.1.4 or 7.1.8?
To expand on my earlier post attempting to answer your question.

Right now for native 3D sound, the RMC is supposedly limited to a maximum channel layout of whatever is encoded on the disc. I have a 9.1.6 (two side surrounds, not front wides) speaker layout and if I play a 7.1.4 disc the RMC will not upmix to play sound out of the middle overhead speakers. I've tested and confirmed the middle overhead speakers remain silent. The RMC-1 manual also confirms this as a rule of the Dolby and DTS decoders.
Quote:
ALL DOLBY ATMOS CONTENT IS PLAYED ON THE RMC-1 USING THE DOLBY ATMOS DECODER.
When Dolby Atmos content is decoded by a Dolby Atmos decoder, both the bed channels and
the sound objects are assigned to the appropriate speakers by the Atmos Renderer. Because the
Atmos technology is able to assign any object to any speaker or speakers it chooses, and will do
so in what it considers to be optimum fashion, there is no option or need to upmix content to
ensure that all speakers are used
. The Dolby Atmos decoder ONLY works on Dolby Atmos content.
- The Dolby Atmos system includes the Dolby Surround upmixer. The Dolby Surround upmixer is a
separate option designed to convert non-Atmos content into full surround sound audio, including
support for height channels. THE DOLBY SURROUND UPMIXER CAN BE USED WITH STEREO ANALOG
CONTENT, STEREO OR MULTI-CHANNEL PCM DIGITAL AUDIO CONTENT, OR DOLBY DIGITAL CONTENT
OTHER THAN ATMOS CONTENT, INCLUDING DOLBY DIGITAL AND DOLBY TRUEHD AUDIO. THE
DOLBY SURROUND UPMIXER CANNOT BE USED WITH DOLBY ATMOS CONTENT OR WITH CONTENT
ENCODED USING ANY DTS DIGITAL AUDIO FORMAT
So what this means is the Dolby and DTS:X upmixers cannot be used on Dolby Atmos and DTS:X native soundtracks to play a 7.1.2 (or 7.1.4) onto a 9.1.6 (or even 7.1.6) speaker layout. If the disc says 7.1.4, that is all you will get.

HOWEVER, while doing some testing of overhead speakers it seemed to me while playing a 7.1.4 soundtrack that the front wide channels were getting a signal different than the side surrounds speakers. Which should not happen if an upmixer cannot be used on a native Atmos soundtrack to simulate wides. Tonight I plan on testing out if the wides are being upmixed with a 7.1.4 soundtrack to give a 9.1.4 playback. If the wides are being simulated it will be interesting that ear level channels seem to be simulated but the middle overheads cannot be.
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post #65 of 853 Old 12-10-2018, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by deewan View Post
The RMC-1 manual also confirms this as a rule of the Dolby and DTS decoders.
The rule does apply to Atmos decoding but not DTS:X decoding. If you configure for 9.1.2 or 5.1.6 (keeping within the 11.1 limit of DTS:X), you'll get upmixed/extracted sounds from the Wides or Top Middle speakers. Upmixing is built into the DTS:X decoder, but not the Atmos decoder.
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HOWEVER, while doing some testing of overhead speakers it seemed to me while playing a 7.1.4 soundtrack that the front wide channels were getting a signal different than the side surrounds speakers. Which should not happen if an upmixer cannot be used on a native Atmos soundtrack to simulate wides.
Correct, but since it is happening, it's likely that the Wides are being fed by audio objects (since Atmos decoding doesn't use an upmixer).
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post #66 of 853 Old 12-10-2018, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by antrantr View Post
8805: AK4490 32 bit
RMC-1: AKM4490Verita

According to google it's the same

Small clarification here. The RMC-1 is using 16 Asahi Kasei AK44090EN DACs (QFN Package) in "Dual Mono Mode". I believe that the Marantz 8805 is using 8 AK44090EQ DACs (LQFP Package) to support 16 channels, 2 per AK4490EQ.


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post #67 of 853 Old 12-10-2018, 05:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deewan View Post
HOWEVER, while doing some testing of overhead speakers it seemed to me while playing a 7.1.4 soundtrack that the front wide channels were getting a signal different than the side surrounds speakers.

You're able to configure 7.1.4 to render Wides, i.e. 5+W.1.4?

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post #68 of 853 Old 12-10-2018, 06:46 PM
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Here are my test results on how what the RMC does with certain soundtracks and my 9.1.6 setup.

How I tested:
I found tracks of each movie that I knew had sound being sent to the overhead speakers when testing the middle overhead channels and side surrounds when testing the front wides.

SOURCE MATERIAL
Movie 1) Dolby Atmos-TrueHD and DTSMA 5.1
Movie 2) Dolby Atmos 7.1.4
Movie 3) DTS-HDMA 7.1

FRONT WIDES
To get the quick answer out of the way. I was never able to get any of the three movies to play anything out of the front wides.
Movie 1) No sound when using the Dolby Atmos setting. No audio when selecting the DTS5.1 track and using the DTS Neural:X setting
Movie 2) No sound
Movie 3) No sound - at first this surprised me since I thought I'd get wides upmixed based on what sdurani posted above. But then I remembered if there is a 11 channel max I'm using a lot on the 4-6 overhead channels and DTS up mixer may ignore the front wides.

For that reason I have now split my side surround output to fed both my first and second row side surround speakers. I've also turned off the front wide output within the speaker Preset 1 setting


OVERHEAD MIDDLE
Movie 1) It works. The RMC does take a Dolby Atmos soundtrack and simulates a middle overhead channel. Please see youtube video below. I ONLY have the middle overhead channel plugged into any amp.
Movie 2) No sound
Movie 3) No sound with DTS Neural:X

Here is the video of the overhead middle channel working with an "Dolby Atmos-TrueHD" soundtrack. Most of the video is silent until you get some really good overhead sounds.


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post #69 of 853 Old 12-10-2018, 11:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deewan View Post

FRONT WIDES

Movie 3) [DTS-HDMA 7.1] No sound - at first this surprised me since I thought I'd get wides upmixed based on what sdurani posted above. But then I remembered if there is a 11 channel max I'm using a lot on the 4-6 overhead channels and DTS up mixer may ignore the front wides.
Sanjay was discussing how the DTS:X decoder has an upmixing function. He did not mention about decoding DTS 7.1 content.
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post #70 of 853 Old 12-11-2018, 02:54 AM
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Originally Posted by deewan View Post
To expand on my earlier post attempting to answer your question.

Right now for native 3D sound, the RMC is supposedly limited to a maximum channel layout of whatever is encoded on the disc. I have a 9.1.6 (two side surrounds, not front wides) speaker layout and if I play a 7.1.4 disc the RMC will not upmix to play sound out of the middle overhead speakers. I've tested and confirmed the middle overhead speakers remain silent. The RMC-1 manual also confirms this as a rule of the Dolby and DTS decoders.


So what this means is the Dolby and DTS:X upmixers cannot be used on Dolby Atmos and DTS:X native soundtracks to play a 7.1.2 (or 7.1.4) onto a 9.1.6 (or even 7.1.6) speaker layout. If the disc says 7.1.4, that is all you will get.

HOWEVER, while doing some testing of overhead speakers it seemed to me while playing a 7.1.4 soundtrack that the front wide channels were getting a signal different than the side surrounds speakers. Which should not happen if an upmixer cannot be used on a native Atmos soundtrack to simulate wides. Tonight I plan on testing out if the wides are being upmixed with a 7.1.4 soundtrack to give a 9.1.4 playback. If the wides are being simulated it will be interesting that ear level channels seem to be simulated but the middle overheads cannot be.
Atmos is object based. It's supposed to be rendered out to the number of speakers you have based on their layout. There's no such thing as a 7.1.4 soundtrack. There's a 7.1 soundtrack with Atmos extensions. What's the point of the RMC-1 having >11 channel support if it can't render Atmos to all the available height speakers? AFAIK, the really expensive high channel count processors people are using for >11 channels don't have such a limitation rendering object based audio.

Am I missing something here or is the RMC-1 deficient at the one big feature it's supposed to offer vs. a typical 11 channel unit?
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post #71 of 853 Old 12-11-2018, 05:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
Atmos is object based. It's supposed to be rendered out to the number of speakers you have based on their layout. There's no such thing as a 7.1.4 soundtrack. There's a 7.1 soundtrack with Atmos extensions. What's the point of the RMC-1 having >11 channel support if it can't render Atmos to all the available height speakers? AFAIK, the really expensive high channel count processors people are using for >11 channels don't have such a limitation rendering object based audio.

Am I missing something here or is the RMC-1 deficient at the one big feature it's supposed to offer vs. a typical 11 channel unit?
Atmos can be object based, but from what I've read and hopefully understand Atmos has pinned soundtracks for streaming and even some Dolby Atmos soundtracks on discs are pinned. I'm guessing if a disc states it is "Atmos 7.1.4" then chances are it's pinned audio, no objects. If a disc has "Dolby Atmos" on the label then it's object based and a higher channel count processor will simulate the additional channels. That's what I found with my limited testing.

One other thing to clarify. As I understand it this is not a limitation of the RMC, it is a limitation of the licence with Dolby. Dolby is preventing someone with a 9.1.6 system from using all the channels with a pinned Dolby 7.1.4 soundtrack. Dolby limits the use of a upmixer with an Atmos soundtrack.

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post #72 of 853 Old 12-11-2018, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
Atmos is object based. It's supposed to be rendered out to the number of speakers you have based on their layout. There's no such thing as a 7.1.4 soundtrack.
Imagine you're mixing a soundtrack in Atmos for home video release. The studio doesn't place any restrictions on your mix, so you use as many objects as you want and place them where ever you want. You monitor the mix on a 7.1.4 speaker layout.

When creating the master that will be transferred to the disc, the studio doesn't use your object-based mix but instead uses the 11.1-channel speaker feeds for the 7.1.4 monitoring set-up. Your object-based Atmos mix still exists at the studio, but what shows up at people's homes is a "pre-rendered" 7.1.4 channel soundtrack. And since Atmos doesn't upmix during decoding, only 11 speakers will light up irrespective of how many speakers are in your Atmos set-up.

If you check the dedicated Atmos thread, you'll see that there are plenty of Atmos soundtracks that are fixed at 7.1.4; especially from Disney (these days, "Disney" means: Disney, Disney Animation, Pixar, Marvel, Lucasfilm). 7.1.4 soundtracks are the norm for DTS:X releases, but it was heartbreaking to see Atmos soundtracks also being limited this way.
Quote:
What's the point of the RMC-1 having >11 channel support if it can't render Atmos to all the available height speakers?
For Atmos mixes that take advantage of more than 11 speakers. For example, if you were to play The Matrix 4K UHD on a maxed out 24.1.10 Atmos set-up, likely all the speakers would light up with sound (it's an object-rich mix).

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post #73 of 853 Old 12-11-2018, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Imagine you're mixing a soundtrack in Atmos for home video release. The studio doesn't place any restrictions on your mix, so you use as many objects as you want and place them where ever you want. You monitor the mix on a 7.1.4 speaker layout.

When creating the master that will be transferred to the disc, the studio doesn't use your object-based mix but instead uses the 11.1-channel speaker feeds for the 7.1.4 monitoring set-up. Your object-based Atmos mix still exists at the studio, but what shows up at people's homes is a "pre-rendered" 7.1.4 channel soundtrack. And since Atmos doesn't upmix during decoding, only 11 speakers will light up irrespective of how many speakers are in your Atmos set-up.

If you check the dedicated Atmos thread, you'll see that there are plenty of Atmos soundtracks that are fixed at 7.1.4; especially from Disney (these days, "Disney" means: Disney, Disney Animation, Pixar, Marvel, Lucasfilm). 7.1.4 soundtracks are the norm for DTS:X releases, but it was heartbreaking to see Atmos soundtracks also being limited this way. For Atmos mixes that take advantage of more than 11 speakers. For example, if you were to play The Matrix 4K UHD on a maxed out 24.1.10 Atmos set-up, likely all the speakers would light up with sound (it's an object-rich mix).

Good recap Eitan, the UHDBR on right




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post #74 of 853 Old 12-11-2018, 09:10 AM
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post #75 of 853 Old 12-11-2018, 09:16 AM
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Learn something new each day.

If true, Disney should be ashamed of themselves.
It's true. Been tested and confirmed multiple times.
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post #76 of 853 Old 12-11-2018, 10:01 AM
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Blame the studios, and DOLBY. EMOTIVA provides the means. It's not their fault. Some people just don't get it. EMOTIVA gets a lot of bashing, and some is warranted, but the DOLBY upmixing is not one of them.


By the way, The RMC-1, with the exclusion of a few bugs, sounds fantastic. Even without DIRAC.

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post #77 of 853 Old 12-11-2018, 11:16 AM
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EMOTIVA gets a lot of bashing, and some is warranted, but the DOLBY upmixing is not one of them.

Some of us fault them for not including Wides in the upmixer.
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post #78 of 853 Old 12-11-2018, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
For example, if you were to play The Matrix 4K UHD on a maxed out 24.1.10 Atmos set-up, likely all the speakers would light up with sound (it's an object-rich mix).
I have an BluRay version of The Matrix, purchased many moons ago. If the 4K disc is as audio enriched as you say, it might given me enough of a reason to buy it again. If nothing else just for testing purposes on the RMC.
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post #79 of 853 Old 12-11-2018, 11:26 AM - Thread Starter
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The rmc-1 doesnt upmix to wides @noah katz ?

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post #80 of 853 Old 12-11-2018, 11:30 AM
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The rmc-1 doesnt upmix to wides @noah katz ?

It will using the DTS upmixer (I forget if it will also do so w/DTS:X track), but I believe only in a 5+W.1.4 configuration, so no surround backs or top middles.
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post #81 of 853 Old 12-11-2018, 11:34 AM - Thread Starter
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I experminented with wides in the past with marantz processors, and yes, the wides do become quite active if you tell a marantz that you have no rears.

I certainly would expect wides to become active though on the rmc-1 with the dolby upmixer...

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post #82 of 853 Old 12-11-2018, 11:40 AM
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I certainly would expect wides to become active though on the rmc-1 with the dolby upmixer...
Their upmixer (Dolby Surround) doesn't support Wides.
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post #83 of 853 Old 12-11-2018, 11:43 AM
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If the 4K disc is as audio enriched as you say, it might given me enough of a reason to buy it again.
Ironic that some of the best Atmos mixes I've heard (especially when it comes to placing sounds overhead) are re-mixes of catalogue titles: Matrix, Blade Runner, 5th Element. All worth re-buying (if you like those movies anyway).
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post #84 of 853 Old 12-11-2018, 11:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Their upmixer (Dolby Surround) doesn't support Wides.
If memory serves, I thought the dolby upmixer on the marantz 8805 did upmix to wides. Am I mistaken?

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post #85 of 853 Old 12-11-2018, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by pennynike1 View Post
If memory serves, I thought the dolby upmixer on the marantz 8805 did upmix to wides. Am I mistaken?
The original user manual did indeed list DSU upmixing to Wides but that turned out not to be true in practice and was corrected when the manual was revised. Of the 24 potential speaker locations in the base layer of home Atmos, 7 of those locations are not supported by DSU (Centre Rear, 2 Wides, and 4 screen speakers between the L/C/R).

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post #86 of 853 Old 12-11-2018, 11:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
The original user manual did indeed list DSU upmixing to Wides but that turned out not to be true in practice and was corrected when the manual was revised. Of the 24 potential speaker locations in the base layer of home Atmos, 7 of those locations are not supported by DSU (Centre Rear, 2 Wides, and 4 screen speakers between the L/C/R).
Thanks for verifying! Are there any consumer based products that do allow upmixing to wides? Trinnov?

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Thanks for verifying! Are there any consumer based peoducts that do allow upmixing to wides? Trinnov?
Neural:X will use the wides if you have a 9.1.2 setup.
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Neural:X will use the wides if you have a 9.1.2 setup.
Thanks. I want 9.1.6 at minimum. I will do 11.5.8 when those expansion modules are released.

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post #89 of 853 Old 12-11-2018, 12:09 PM
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Thanks. I want 9.1.6 at minimum. I will do 11.5.8 when those expansion modules are released.
The current implementation of DTS:X/Neural:X is limited to 11 speakers, even if you have a maxed out Trinnov. There is a future version of DTS:X/Neural:X that we hopefully will see where the speaker count isn't restricted. Once that is out up mixing will work to more speakers. Just a shame that Dolby recently updated their licensing so we can probably forget about that working on anything outside of DTS and LPCM streams.

It turned out that my 9.1.6 setup by accident manage to get Neural:X working on 15 speakers but it requires 4 AVR's.

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post #90 of 853 Old 12-11-2018, 12:40 PM
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Are there any consumer based products that do allow upmixing to wides? Trinnov?
Not with DSU, since it simply isn't built into the upmixing algorithm. Same with the Auro upmixer (Auro-Matic). Only Neural:X upmixes to Wides.
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