Dirac to Debut Multi-Subwoofer Bass Management Module at CES 2019 - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 145 Old 12-26-2018, 03:51 AM
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We cannot be that far removed from a 16 (or “x”) channel standalone Dirac Live box that you use with an AVR or PREPRO. (?)

Surely they have to know there’s a market of folks who do not want to buy “x” brand of avr or pre pro or cobble together multiple mini dsp 88’s and just use XLRs.

They would sell a ton of these things, and the first one, to ME! 🙂

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post #32 of 145 Old 12-26-2018, 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
Given the vague marketing description, I'm curious why you think that.
Yes, the press release is very vague. But the reason I think this is going to be an MSO/SFM type solution is this line here:
Quote:
Tier 1 allows management of any number of subwoofers, analyzing each one to create a single-optimized sub channel that drives each subwoofer.
I can't think of any reason to analyze individual subs if only applying global EQ?

I could be totally off here though. This could just be a bunch of marketing drivel. I expect more from Dirac, but who knows.
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post #33 of 145 Old 12-26-2018, 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by adrummingdude View Post
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Are there any subs that come with Dirac?

I know the new Martin Logan subs come with Anthem Room Correction.

Lots of folks want a "plug and play" option vs going the MiniDSP route or similar.
Martin Logan makes great subs, even though they are usually trash talked by the "I've got a room full of 18s driven by some shatty pro amp" crowd around here. I'd bet my last dollar most of them haven't even heard one.

IMO for modern subs to be taken seriously they need at least an onboard EQ more advanced than just a room gain shelving filter. App support too, though I think SVS is still the only one doing that. Or, like you said full on room correction. There's really no excuse any more for any sub costing more than a few hundred bucks to not have some of these tools onboard, which reduces the need for boxes like this new Dirac one.

I'll admit that I'm a little foggy about how this thing would make a typical dual sub integration much easier than using room correction software or REW as a measurement device to tweak onboard EQ and test tones to get the phasing right. One more piece to buy, one more piece to learn, one more piece to potentially fail or be buggy....or just not work that well.
This is appealing to me-here’s why:

I will be getting a NAD 758 next week with DIRAC. I also plan on getting two PC2000s which will be more then adequate for my room but have no app control.

1. Will this program make up for the fact that the Duel PC2000 don’t have on-board app control.

2. Since moving up to the PC4000 duels is not an option due to them being MORE THAN twice the price of the 2000s...will I be able to get a third PC2000 for increase SPL in room and also calibrate the 3 subs easily into my 758 if I had this program? I heard calibrating 3 subs isn’t all that easy for lay people but maybe this would make it worth it if it does...
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post #34 of 145 Old 12-26-2018, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
I can't think of any reason to analyze individual subs if only applying global EQ?
Agreed. Dr. Mathias Johansson, CEO of Dirac Research, was interviewed for one of Scott Wilkinson's podcasts a little over 3 years ago and talked about their auto-EQ being designed to improve the sound in all seats without any of the seats being made worse. Based on that, I'm guessing the multi-sub optimization built into their Tier 1 bass management is in keeping with that design and will improve consistency across all seats. Once the peaks & dips are similar in all seats, the combined output from the multiple subs can be treated as a single subwoofer, allowing Dirac Live to smooth the frequency response.

BTW, even though Harman's SFM is always used to improve seat to seat consistency, the algorithm can be asked to optimize multiple subs to solve for an alternate result, such as flattest combined response at the main listening position or maximum combined output.
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post #35 of 145 Old 12-26-2018, 09:36 AM
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I can sort-of envision algorithmically a reason or two for analyzing individual sub responses... One is to see the contribution from each sub at (or across) the MLP and determine which frequencies to utilize from each sub even if the net result is a single optimized response. That way you can limit the boost/cut applied to each sub to something helpful and reasonable, and optimize the power utilization from each sub in the array. I think that is part of what is behind Dirac Unison (?) It would also allow you to avoid boosting a sub beyond its capability, e.g. a sub that pours into a null at the MLP should not be boosted without something else happening, like phase adjustments or whatever (or just do not boost that sub at that frequency). Assuming a linear system, then superposition applies and you should be able to predict the net response by summing the individual responses. What usually messes that up is reflections and such that cause the steady-state response to not match the short-term time response. Etc.

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post #36 of 145 Old 12-26-2018, 10:10 AM
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I think that is part of what is behind Dirac Unison (?)
Unison attempts to turn each sub & speaker in the room into active bass absorbers by having them play cancellation signals for all other subs & speakers. Room modes are caused by sound bouncing off boundaries. By actively cancelling those reflections, the effects of room modes (peaks, dips, long decay times) are reduced. And YOU get to choose the amount of reduction by adjusting what they call a "Focus Control". Here are waterfall (decay) measurements of: (a) unfocused, (b) focus = +6dB, (c) focus = -6dB, (d) focus = -18dB. The default setting is 500Hz, so only bass below that is affected.

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post #37 of 145 Old 12-26-2018, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
As I mentioned above, don't forget PEQ.

? PEQ is EQ.



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I can't think of any reason to analyze individual subs if only applying global EQ?
To flatten each sub; I believe Audyssey XT32 does this.



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Agreed. Dr. Mathias Johansson, CEO of Dirac Research, was interviewed for one of Scott Wilkinson's podcasts a little over 3 years ago and talked about their auto-EQ being designed to improve the sound in all seats without any of the seats being made worse. Based on that, I'm guessing the multi-sub optimization built into their Tier 1 bass management is in keeping with that design and will improve consistency across all seats. Once the peaks & dips are similar in all seats, the combined output from the multiple subs can be treated as a single subwoofer, allowing Dirac Live to smooth the frequency response.

I hope so, but you'd think they say so if that was the case.

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post #38 of 145 Old 12-26-2018, 10:49 AM
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[quote=noah katz;57327824]? PEQ is EQ.


Yes, you did say that


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To flatten each sub; I believe Audyssey XT32 does this.
Audyssey is simply level matching SPL at the MLP. It only applies EQ to the global sub response


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I hope so, but you'd think they say so if that was the case.
Good point, but maybe since it's a general press release they don't think most folks would even know what they're talking about, or think it's some kind of voodoo. After all, there is a very established dogma in audio circles that EQ'ing individual subs is a very terrible thing to do. I've found that when discussing MSO I get a lot of "good luck with that" types of comments, even from folks I would consider knowledgeable about audio in general. So the audience for a more detailed description I think would be extremely small.
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
I hope so, but you'd think they say so if that was the case.
Press releases tend to be vague and hyperbolic ("world’s first predictive results analysis"), so I don't put much stock in them. The real info comes out after user experiences. Unfortunately, who knows when that will happen (release of the Dirac bass management module).
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post #40 of 145 Old 12-26-2018, 11:21 AM
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[quote=Gooddoc;57327888]
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
Good point, but maybe since it's a general press release they don't think most folks would even know what they're talking about, or think it's some kind of voodoo.

Yes, that could very well be.



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Press releases tend to be vague and hyperbolic ("world’s first predictive results analysis"), so I don't put much stock in them. The real info comes out after user experiences. Unfortunately, who knows when that will happen (release of the Dirac bass management module).

I'm hoping there will also be a standalone bass box from minidsp.

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post #41 of 145 Old 12-26-2018, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post






I'm hoping there will also be a standalone bass box from minidsp.
a 1 or 2-in, 4 out XLR would be killer.

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post #42 of 145 Old 12-26-2018, 12:38 PM
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a 1 or 2-in, 4 out XLR would be killer.
But deep down inside we all know it will be a Phoenix block
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But deep down inside we all know it will be a Phoenix block
Yep...

Dude I just read through your gear signature and you are just going to have to prepare yourself for crossing the finish line here soon. The game is almost over for you...

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post #44 of 145 Old 12-26-2018, 01:17 PM
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Yep...

Dude I just read through your gear signature and you are just going to have to prepare yourself for crossing the finish line here soon. The game is almost over for you...
Thanks man. The journey has been long, but from a sonic perspective I am putting a fork in it although I did run wires for top middles in the event a 9.1.6 receiver that costs less than a car surfaces (hoping Emotiva will pull it off). The ears are done, the only thing left is the eyes. I still have one lamp in the box for my Sony projector. Once I burn through that lamp in a year or two, I will make the jump to 4k. By then prices and tech should be pretty solid.
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[quote=noah katz;57328040]
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post





Yes, that could very well be.













I'm hoping there will also be a standalone bass box from minidsp.
I'm guessing it will be available for the minidsp ddrc-22a and 2x4HD (with Dirac upgrade) as a software upgrade. The Dirac 2.0 beta software (without the announced yearly add in module) is available for certain existing receivers already, so doesn't look like it needs any new hardware.

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post #46 of 145 Old 12-26-2018, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
Thanks man. The journey has been long, but from a sonic perspective I am putting a fork in it although I did run wires for top middles in the event a 9.1.6 receiver that costs less than a car surfaces (hoping Emotiva will pull it off). The ears are done, the only thing left is the eyes. I still have one lamp in the box for my Sony projector. Once I burn through that lamp in a year or two, I will make the jump to 4k. By then prices and tech should be pretty solid.
It's very close right now as-is to be honest. Im really digging what I am getting out of my rs540 for HDR with some custom curves and/or the tone mapping in the the panasonic player. I can only hope the new full 4k JVC's answer the call and improve a shade on what I already have and I will be hopping in line pretty quick.

[quote=Pradeep2;57328550]
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I'm guessing it will be available for the minidsp ddrc-22a and 2x4HD (with Dirac upgrade) as a software upgrade. The Dirac 2.0 beta software (without the announced yearly add in module) is available for certain existing receivers already, so doesn't look like it needs any new hardware.

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Yep, and my main hope is it will work at least for two different channels out of these AVR/P's for multi-sub work. I only need two man, but three would be super cool.
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post #47 of 145 Old 12-26-2018, 07:11 PM
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I'm glad to see room correction vendors finally taking the multi-sub issue seriously. It's about time. For this to work well for typical consumers, this means the hardware used must be controlled very carefully by the software vendor. MSO allows the use of inexpensive IIR-based DSP hardware, but figuring out the required filter parameters in the IIR case has no known closed-form mathematical solution. For this reason, optimization software, which is prone to all kinds of glitches, must be used. But appropriate FIR-based hardware can be used with closed-form mathematical approaches to get answers to consumers fast, and even give linear phase to the results (regardless of whether or not this is audible). This is, IMO, the future.
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post #48 of 145 Old 12-26-2018, 07:24 PM
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I'm glad to see room correction vendors finally taking the multi-sub issue seriously. It's about time. For this to work well for typical consumers, this means the hardware used must be controlled very carefully by the software vendor. MSO allows the use of inexpensive IIR-based DSP hardware, but figuring out the required filter parameters in the IIR case has no known closed-form mathematical solution. For this reason, optimization software, which is prone to all kinds of glitches, must be used. But appropriate FIR-based hardware can be used with closed-form mathematical approaches to get answers to consumers fast, and even give linear phase to the results (regardless of whether or not this is audible). This is, IMO, the future.
Will this software still be useful for multi subs that aren’t all controlled like the SVS PC or PB2000?

Also, if the sub isn’t app controlled, would the user have to go to each sub and change the parameters on the back of the sub to calibrate or would the software do that on its own without physically having to go back and forth to each sub and mess with controls?

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post #49 of 145 Old 12-26-2018, 07:53 PM
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Will this software still be useful for multi subs that aren’t all controlled like the SVS PC or PB2000?
I'm not sure what you mean by "this software". If you mean MSO, it uses measured sub data to compute filter parameters for hardware such as the miniDSP 2x4 variants, and provides a text file that can be uploaded to the hardware via the miniDSP software plugin interface. It can also be used to provide data that can be manually entered into supporting software for Behringer iNuke DSP amps.
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post #50 of 145 Old 12-26-2018, 09:58 PM
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I'm glad to see room correction vendors finally taking the multi-sub issue seriously. It's about time. For this to work well for typical consumers, this means the hardware used must be controlled very carefully by the software vendor. MSO allows the use of inexpensive IIR-based DSP hardware, but figuring out the required filter parameters in the IIR case has no known closed-form mathematical solution. For this reason, optimization software, which is prone to all kinds of glitches, must be used. But appropriate FIR-based hardware can be used with closed-form mathematical approaches to get answers to consumers fast, and even give linear phase to the results (regardless of whether or not this is audible). This is, IMO, the future.
That might be the future, but at the present time the free-ware you developed is awesome. I am very appreciative of your efforts. ty.
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For this to work well for typical consumers, this means the hardware used must be controlled very carefully by the software vendor.
No worries there, we all know what a great job Dirac Live has done thus far on ensuring strict vendor compliance and standardization of their licensed software
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post #52 of 145 Old 12-27-2018, 08:50 AM
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No worries there, we all know what a great job Dirac Live has done thus far on ensuring strict vendor compliance and standardization of their licensed software
miniDSP did a great job with the 88A, hopefully they have a new box in dev with a higher channel count that can take full advantage of a robust bass management program.

Imagine a box that processes 12 satellites and 4 subs with automated multi-sub and crossover optimization. I don't want to get my hopes up that high, but it's fun to think about it .
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miniDSP did a great job with the 88A, hopefully they have a new box in dev with a higher channel count that can take full advantage of a robust bass management program.

Imagine a box that processes 12 satellites and 4 subs with automated multi-sub and crossover optimization. I don't want to get my hopes up that high, but it's fun to think about it .
I was talking about all the variance with bass-management, post calibration level settings, cross-over settings, etc between Arcam, NAD, MiniDSP etc. They all appear to do various things differently. I am with you though, MiniDSP needs a 2u box with 16+ channel support. That would be a game changer.
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post #54 of 145 Old 12-28-2018, 06:41 PM
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Just hope they shed some more light on this at Cedia in January

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post #55 of 145 Old 01-04-2019, 10:26 AM
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This new module sounds interesting, but with the NAD 758v3 and 777v3 having only a single Y-splitted sub signal sent identically to their two SUB outputs, I'm not sure if it will help as much as we'd all like? But let's wait.

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post #56 of 145 Old 01-07-2019, 02:54 AM
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Monoprice HTP-1 would be perfect for this application. Great for 7.4.4

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post #57 of 145 Old 01-08-2019, 07:44 AM
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Any ideas when this is to be announced this week?
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post #58 of 145 Old 01-10-2019, 09:27 PM
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Or even if its going to be?
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According to Todd Anderson, the system cannot use external hardware. So if you want a four-sub system, you'll have to wait until some manufacturer offers an AVR or pre/pro with four sub outs that's compatible with the new Dirac system.
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post #60 of 145 Old 01-11-2019, 02:08 AM
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Quote:
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According to Todd Anderson, the system cannot use external hardware. So if you want a four-sub system, you'll have to wait until some manufacturer offers an AVR or pre/pro with four sub outs that's compatible with the new Dirac system.
Hopefully MiniDSP will start ofering this software at which stage all you will need is a DDRC-24 for the 4 subwoofers.

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