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imagic 12-18-2018 07:14 AM

Dirac to Debut Multi-Subwoofer Bass Management Module at CES 2019
 
At CES 2019 Dirac Research will demo its first module for Dirac Live. The Multi-Sub Bass Management Module promises superior bass for one or more subs.

Full press release:

-----

UPPSALA, SWEDEN, December 18, 2018 — Swedish sound pioneer Dirac Research today announced its all-new Dirac Live Bass Management Module that improves bass performance and provides the most sophisticated, easy-to-use multi-subwoofer optimization solution for both consumers and professional technology integrators. The breakthrough solution leverages a proprietary approach to subwoofer system optimization to produce far smoother and tighter bass than existing solutions, which oftentimes sound muddied and smeared. Dirac will debut the new module at CES 2019 in Dirac’s Westgate Suite 630 .

According to Niklas Thorin, Dirac General Manager of High Performance Audio, the new Dirac Live Bass Management Module is a best-in-class product that further solidifies Dirac as the market’s leading one-stop source for home theater digital audio optimization solutions.

"Seven years ago, we introduced the world to Dirac Live, which marked a breakthrough in digital room correction and has since become the industry’s reference solution,” Thorin stated. “Dirac Live set the bar high and helped establish our reputation as the leading pioneer of sound optimization solutions. Our all-new Dirac Live Bass Management Module lives up to the legacy of Dirac Live and proves to the market that wherever we innovate, we lead.”

The new Dirac Live Bass Management Module leverages the mathematical models and processing algorithms that have made Dirac Live so revolutionary, to produce the simplest, fastest, and most effective method for single- and multi-subwoofer system optimization. The solution helps save time by offering the world’s first predictive results analysis, letting users see a visual representation of the predicted bass performance without having to run repeated audible tests.

What’s more, Dirac Live Bass Management ensures that subwoofers deliver a specific range of frequencies that produce a smoother, tighter bass experience, while creating optimal sound reproduction for each specific room. Traditionally, this required repeated time-consuming audio tests and location adjustments for one or multiple subwoofers. With various adjustable settings, including crossover frequency, phase shift and subwoofer volume, the process could, historically, be overwhelming for users.

Dirac Live Bass Management also offers potential savings for consumers who can now achieve enhanced bass performance from a single subwoofer, and therefore do not need to invest in a second device.

Jakob Argren, Dirac Head of Product Management, explained that the new Dirac Live Bass Management Module will launch in three tiers aimed at specific market segments.

Tier 1 allows management of any number of subwoofers, analyzing each one to create a single-optimized sub channel that drives each subwoofer. It also enables precise control of frequency cutoffs for all speakers. Tier 2 offers advanced setup for a single subwoofer, while also providing control over parameters and applying frequency filters to all speakers based on measurements. Tier 3 is a free module for all current Dirac Live customers and OEMs, permitting standard bass management with the added benefit of predictive results.

“Our tiered approach to Dirac Live Bass Management allows us to deliver a best-in-class solution for all home theater enthusiasts, regardless of their budget or system set-up,” stated Argren. “What’s more, by optimizing the subwoofer performance in relation to the room dimensions and speaker position, customers are no longer required to place their subs in specific locations, often at odds with the aesthetics of the room, in order to achieve optimal performance.”

Dirac Live Bass Management is scheduled for release in Q2 2019 and is the first module to be introduced for the new Dirac Live. Dirac Live modules will be introduced on a yearly basis and will allow users to customize their home theater software system based on one’s specific requirements and preferences. The new Dirac Live, whose beta was released at CEDIA 2018, is now available and compatible with units from Arcam, AudioControl, Bryston, Lexicon, NAD, and StormAudio.

RUR 12-18-2018 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by imagic (Post 57290214)
….Dirac Live Bass Management ensures that subwoofers deliver a specific range of frequencies that produce a smoother, tighter bass experience.....

Curiously, this sounds vaguely like a description of what Unison will do, yet Unison is not mentioned, per se, in the article.

12B4A 12-18-2018 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RUR (Post 57290360)
Curiously, this sounds vaguely like a description of what Unison will do, yet Unison is not mentioned, per se, in the article.

This bass module doesn't sound like Unison to me. Unison designates other full range speakers in the system to correct for a singular speaker response. This module seems more like Dirac's answer to SFM or MSO.

Edit: Maybe @flax can give a definitive answer on the Unison aspect

flax 12-18-2018 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 12B4A (Post 57290400)
This bass module doesn't sound like Unison to me. Unison designates other full range speakers in the system to correct for a singular speaker response. This module seems more like Dirac's answer to SFM or MSO.

Edit: Maybe @flax can give a definitive answer on the Unison aspect


Yes, excellent but not Unison :)


Flavio

wpbpete 12-18-2018 08:11 AM

Sounds awesome! I wonder if it'll also suggest placement for best response ie: room sim

sdurani 12-18-2018 08:43 AM

Keep in mind the associated hardware costs. An outboard Dirac box, like the miniDSP 88A, runs around $1K. If you use 4 of its outputs to feed individual subs for Dirac multi-sub optimization, that's $500 of hardware (plus whatever it costs to upgrade to Tier 1 of Dirac bass management). Big step up from a $100 miniDSP 2x4 often used for multi-sub.

12B4A 12-18-2018 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sdurani (Post 57290728)
Keep in mind the associated hardware costs. An outboard Dirac box, like the miniDSP 88A, runs around $1K. If you use 4 of its outputs to feed individual subs for Dirac multi-sub optimization, that's $500 of hardware (plus whatever it costs to upgrade to Tier 1 of Dirac bass management). Big step up from a $100 miniDSP 2x4 often used for multi-sub.

It seems like the value here would be for those who already own Arcam, AudioControl, Bryston, Lexicon, NAD, or StormAudio units that have two or more individually adjustable sub outputs that Dirac Live is treating as one output only. If the Tier 3 option is significantly more expensive than the miniDSP 2x4 route with MSO then it'll be a harder sell.

Pradeep2 12-18-2018 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sdurani (Post 57290728)
Keep in mind the associated hardware costs. An outboard Dirac box, like the miniDSP 88A, runs around $1K. If you use 4 of its outputs to feed individual subs for Dirac multi-sub optimization, that's $500 of hardware (plus whatever it costs to upgrade to Tier 1 of Dirac bass management). Big step up from a $100 miniDSP 2x4 often used for multi-sub.

Given the 2 channel Dirac software upgrade for the 2x4HD is an additional $200 over the $200 price of the 2x4HD itself, I don't see why the 2x4HD couldn't support the Tier 1 sub functions that were discussed (while being limited to 4 outputs) as opposed to 8 on the 88A. I would pay an aditional $100 for the Tier 1 plugin if MiniDSP made it available - their forums mentioned support coming for Dirac 2.0 in 2019 - I will hold off on upgrading my 2x4HD to a DDRC-24 until CES reveal.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

Molon_Labe 12-18-2018 06:13 PM

If they can do a $300-ish automated MSO type 2x4, then sign me up. An external box is going to be required in my situation. Although I already have Dirac Live on the NAD 777, there is only one sub channel.

@flax - Throw us a bone Flavio and provide us some hints. We're all friends here ;)

noah katz 12-18-2018 10:39 PM

"The solution helps save time by offering the world’s first predictive results analysis, letting users see a visual representation of the predicted bass performance without having to run repeated audible tests."


I don't see how that's different than the target curve, which the corrected response is supposed to match.



"What’s more, Dirac Live Bass Management ensures that subwoofers deliver a specific range of frequencies that produce a smoother, tighter bass experience"


All bass EQ's claim to do that.


It's not clear to me that the when using more than one sub whether it takes account of their interactions, which would be a step in the direction of SFM or MSO.

Likewise their blend with the mains.

klimo 12-20-2018 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Molon_Labe (Post 57295004)
But few actually do it well. One thing for certain is that Dirac Live has a track record of doing what they claim and usually doing it better than the competition. I don't think they would do a press release for something that isn't a new product/solution. Too early for any of us to know. Only time will tell, so we just have to wait and see. I am optimistically hopeful. I will add this to my wish list along with a fully functional Emotiva RMC-1 :p

This makes running 9.4.6 a no brainer in the RMC-1, right?

beastaudio 12-20-2018 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 12B4A (Post 57291086)
It seems like the value here would be for those who already own Arcam, AudioControl, Bryston, Lexicon, NAD, or StormAudio units that have two or more individually adjustable sub outputs that Dirac Live is treating as one output only. If the Tier 3 option is significantly more expensive than the miniDSP 2x4 route with MSO then it'll be a harder sell.

As I mentioned in the other thread but will here as well, I really really hope there is a way to get the two sub outs to be able to do the new bass management stuff...

richardsim7 12-20-2018 04:03 PM

I asked Dirac about how this would work, they suggested it may be possible to use spare Atmos outputs on AVRs for additional subs.

Or potentially using a MiniDSP 2x4 for those who already have used all the pre-outs on their AVR.

But we won't know until closer to launch, it would appear :)

Gooddoc 12-21-2018 10:35 AM

Nice! Looking forward to learning the details. But it certainly reads like it is meant to compete against SFM. It's needed badly. The entry cost to get to SFM is ridiculous.

gajCA 12-23-2018 11:06 AM

Are there any subs that come with Dirac?

I know the new Martin Logan subs come with Anthem Room Correction.

Lots of folks want a "plug and play" option vs going the MiniDSP route or similar.

adrummingdude 12-23-2018 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gajCA (Post 57316828)
Are there any subs that come with Dirac?

I know the new Martin Logan subs come with Anthem Room Correction.

Lots of folks want a "plug and play" option vs going the MiniDSP route or similar.

Martin Logan makes great subs, even though they are usually trash talked by the "I've got a room full of 18s driven by some shatty pro amp" crowd around here. I'd bet my last dollar most of them haven't even heard one.

IMO for modern subs to be taken seriously they need at least an onboard EQ more advanced than just a room gain shelving filter. App support too, though I think SVS is still the only one doing that. Or, like you said full on room correction. There's really no excuse any more for any sub costing more than a few hundred bucks to not have some of these tools onboard, which reduces the need for boxes like this new Dirac one.

I'll admit that I'm a little foggy about how this thing would make a typical dual sub integration much easier than using room correction software or REW as a measurement device to tweak onboard EQ and test tones to get the phasing right. One more piece to buy, one more piece to learn, one more piece to potentially fail or be buggy....or just not work that well.

gajCA 12-24-2018 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adrummingdude (Post 57318872)
Martin Logan makes great subs, even though they are usually trash talked by the "I've got a room full of 18s driven by some shatty pro amp" crowd around here. I'd bet my last dollar most of them haven't even heard one.

IMO for modern subs to be taken seriously they need at least an onboard EQ more advanced than just a room gain shelving filter. App support too, though I think SVS is still the only one doing that. Or, like you said full on room correction. There's really no excuse any more for any sub costing more than a few hundred bucks to not have some of these tools onboard, which reduces the need for boxes like this new Dirac one.

I'll admit that I'm a little foggy about how this thing would make a typical dual sub integration much easier than using room correction software or REW as a measurement device to tweak onboard EQ and test tones to get the phasing right. One more piece to buy, one more piece to learn, one more piece to potentially fail or be buggy....or just not work that well.

Completely agree.

When my DD15 sub fails, (with rudimentary on board microphone based EQ), I was thinking I'd definitely get a Rhythmik sub but now I'm thinking it will be a Martin Logan with ARC or similar.

I'm not interested in becoming a MiniDSP/REW expert though I have a Umik and use a MiniDSP in my secondary room as a subwoofer crossover which my ancient NAD 7250PE lacks.

The "plug and play" aspect of the ARC system appeals to me and I'm aware that older Martin Logan subs were excellent albeit expensive.

I also used it to do basic sub EQ using the MiniDSP parametric equalizer manually as I am not smart enough to get the REW EQ into the MiniDSP without an error.

Once I did that I put the Umik away and haven't given it another thought or used it in my main Home Theater room as I'm happy with the sound in there and have zero interest in micro analysis.

My Umik is on loan to another young AVS member here in Santa Rosa who at 17 is jumping into the EQ rabbit hole with enthusiasm that I completely lack! :p

Gooddoc 12-24-2018 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adrummingdude (Post 57318872)
a few hundred bucks to not have some of these tools onboard, which reduces the need for boxes like this new Dirac one.

I'll admit that I'm a little foggy about how this thing would make a typical dual sub integration much easier than using room correction software or REW as a measurement device to tweak onboard EQ and test tones to get the phasing right. One more piece to buy, one more piece to learn, one more piece to potentially fail or be buggy....or just not work that well.

If this Dirac software is what I think it is, then existing room correction software cannot do what it will do, which is to reduce seat to seat FR variability through individual sub EQ. The method works and is already being used with MSO and SFM, both awesome programs. If Dirac can do it simpler than MSO and cheaper than SFM it will be a home run.

adrummingdude 12-24-2018 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gooddoc (Post 57322260)
If this Dirac software is what I think it is, then existing room correction software cannot do what it will do, which is to reduce seat to seat FR variability through individual sub EQ. The method works and is already being used with MSO and SFM, both awesome programs. If Dirac can do it simpler than MSO and cheaper than SFM it will be a home run.

The only thing that can reduce seat to seat fr variability is room treatments. Even then, differing positions in space relative to boundaries (treated or otherwise) will certainly present different modes, regardless of what EQ is running where.

Don't get me wrong...a box that can do true multiple sub EQ is nice, but I also think it's important for our expectations to be realistic. :)

Gooddoc 12-24-2018 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adrummingdude (Post 57322282)
The only thing that can reduce seat to seat fr variability is room treatments. Even then, differing positions in space relative to boundaries (treated or otherwise) will certainly present different modes, regardless of what EQ is running where.

Don't get me wrong...a box that can do true multiple sub EQ is nice, but I also think it's important for our expectations to be realistic. :)

Not sure how you came to that conclusion. But it's wrong. Seat-to-seat variability can definitely be reduced with EQ. I'm currently doing it in my own system. It's measurable.

adrummingdude 12-24-2018 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gooddoc (Post 57322444)
Not sure how you came to that conclusion. But it's wrong. Seat-to-seat variability can definitely be reduced with EQ. I'm currently doing it in my own system. It's measurable.

If you're taking about reducing standing waves globally through EQ then sure, but different EQ values for different subs not equidistant to seats which themselves have different positions relative to the room boundaries...good luck with that.


I'm glad you found a solution you like though...truly :)

Gooddoc 12-24-2018 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adrummingdude (Post 57322480)
If you're taking about reducing standing waves globally through EQ then sure, but different EQ values for different subs not equidistant to seats which themselves have different positions relative to the room boundaries...good luck with that.

It's like magic :)

adrummingdude 12-24-2018 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gooddoc (Post 57322568)
It's like magic :)

Well, it IS Christmas.;)

Gooddoc 12-24-2018 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adrummingdude (Post 57322610)
Well, it IS Christmas.;)

Yes, and a very Merry Christmas to all.

pixphipau 12-25-2018 12:49 AM

So, its a seperate box, not just a add on to the software?

noah katz 12-25-2018 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gooddoc (Post 57322260)
If this Dirac software is what I think it is, then existing room correction software cannot do what it will do, which is to reduce seat to seat FR variability through individual sub EQ.


Given the vague marketing description, I'm curious why you think that.



Quote:

Originally Posted by adrummingdude (Post 57322282)
The only thing that can reduce seat to seat fr variability is room treatments.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gooddoc (Post 57322444)
Not sure how you came to that conclusion. But it's wrong. Seat-to-seat variability can definitely be reduced with EQ.


Well certainly it can't be reduced by EQing a single sub, and with multiple subs it's arguably not the EQ that reduces it but the change in modal behavior from having multiple bass sources.

Then if the EQ for each sub is variable in phase and/or level (the latter I'm not sure about myself), it can reduce seat to seat variability.

But AFAIK Dirac hasn't said their s/w will do that.

12B4A 12-25-2018 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noah katz (Post 57325074)
But AFAIK Dirac hasn't said their s/w will do that.

That’s a good observation of the press release. Multi-sub tuning can produce a spectrum of results that optimize magnitude, reduce seat-to-seat variability, or create the smoothest response in a narrow location. Dirac hasn’t seemed to claim a reduction in seat-to-seat variability.

Chirosamsung 12-25-2018 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adrummingdude (Post 57318872)
Quote:

Originally Posted by gajCA (Post 57316828)
Are there any subs that come with Dirac?

I know the new Martin Logan subs come with Anthem Room Correction.

Lots of folks want a "plug and play" option vs going the MiniDSP route or similar.

Martin Logan makes great subs, even though they are usually trash talked by the "I've got a room full of 18s driven by some shatty pro amp" crowd around here. I'd bet my last dollar most of them haven't even heard one.

IMO for modern subs to be taken seriously they need at least an onboard EQ more advanced than just a room gain shelving filter. App support too, though I think SVS is still the only one doing that. Or, like you said full on room correction. There's really no excuse any more for any sub costing more than a few hundred bucks to not have some of these tools onboard, which reduces the need for boxes like this new Dirac one.

I'll admit that I'm a little foggy about how this thing would make a typical dual sub integration much easier than using room correction software or REW as a measurement device to tweak onboard EQ and test tones to get the phasing right. One more piece to buy, one more piece to learn, one more piece to potentially fail or be buggy....or just not work that well.

This is appealing to me-here’s why:

I will be getting a NAD 758 next week with DIRAC. I also plan on getting two PC2000s which will be more then adequate for my room but have no app control.

1. Will this program make up for the fact that the Duel PC2000 don’t have on-board app control.

2. Since moving up to the PC4000 duels is not an option due to them being MORE THAN twice the price of the 2000s...will I be able to get a third PC2000 for increase SPL in room and also calibrate the 3 subs easily into my 758 if I had this program? I heard calibrating 3 subs isn’t all that easy for lay people but maybe this would make it worth it if it does...

sdurani 12-25-2018 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adrummingdude (Post 57322282)
The only thing that can reduce seat to seat fr variability is room treatments.

Before vs after measurements of 4 seating locations, using only electronic subwoofer optimization (MSO), no added treatments nor placement changes.

https://www.andyc.diy-audio-engineer..._after_opt.png



https://www.andyc.diy-audio-engineer...tml/index.html

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...optimizer.html

Gooddoc 12-25-2018 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noah katz (Post 57325074)
Well certainly it can't be reduced by EQing a single sub, and with multiple subs it's arguably not the EQ that reduces it but the change in modal behavior from having multiple bass sources.

Ok. But that is not consistent with my direct experience. PEQ(multiple subs) reduces it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by noah katz (Post 57325074)
Then if the EQ for each sub is variable in phase and/or level (the latter I'm not sure about myself), it can reduce seat to seat variability.

As I mentioned above, don't forget PEQ. And phase is not a variable element, at least in MSO. It was explained why to me at one point, but I can't recall the details.


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