The Official NAD C658 Thread - Page 13 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #361 of 1745 Old 05-03-2019, 05:56 PM
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@Mike in NC
Of course!
Thanks in advance.

It would be great if you could try it in your main and desktop systems and compare it with Anthem STR and Classe CP-800.
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post #362 of 1745 Old 05-03-2019, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike in NC View Post
I've ordered a miniDSP SHD ... it will be used in my TV system ... any interest in a report, here or in another thread?
that would be affirmative
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post #363 of 1745 Old 05-06-2019, 04:51 AM
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Dirac Live to Arrive for the NAD C 658 BluOS™ Streaming DAC in June 2019


https://nadelectronics.com/dirac-liv...-in-june-2019/
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post #364 of 1745 Old 05-06-2019, 06:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Jeeriko View Post
Dirac Live to Arrive for the NAD C 658 BluOS™ Streaming DAC in June 2019


https://nadelectronics.com/dirac-liv...-in-june-2019/
Having to upgrade to dirac live for the full feature set, annoys me.
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post #365 of 1745 Old 05-06-2019, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by PretzelFisch View Post
Having to upgrade to dirac live for the full feature set, annoys me.
Does not bother me a bit.
I bet for most people the included services are sufficient.

As for them finally announcing this, ITS ABOUT DAMNED TIME!
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post #366 of 1745 Old 05-06-2019, 01:45 PM
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Nad c 658 / dirac

Quote:
Originally Posted by PretzelFisch View Post
Having to upgrade to dirac live for the full feature set, annoys me.
The article linked above includes: "Robust tone and room correction controls can be accessed with the Dirac app, while the BluOS Controller app contains basic controls, allowing a user to select filters, adjust subwoofer crossover settings, or simply disable Dirac.

Dirac Live will make these compensations up to 500 Hz. Users interested in room correction across the full frequency range can easily upgrade to Dirac Live Full.
"

Given the extra cost for "Full", it's a fairly safe bet that most users won't make the move beyond the free version. But, I'm wondering just what value the "Full" version offers. Most posts here and elsewhere on the web suggest the basic "lite" version does a pretty good job of making a difference with nearly all considering it an improvement. Surely NAD aren't going to take the risk of being panned by offering a feature that turns out to make little, if any, difference. If that's so, what is the value of the Full (paid for) version?

When I get to demo the C 658 with DIRAC, I will be sure to find out which version is installed for demo purposes. If the demo is with the Full version and I end up choosing the C 658, it seems perfectly reasonable to me for the Full version to be installed at no extra cost - especially if no mention is made of extra charges either on the price tag or during the demo.

Obviously, I'm really hoping the C 658 sounds great in any case and just made even "better" with DIRAC "lite". Worst case scenario is for the C 658 to sound "pretty good" but just edged sonically by another pre-amp that is not so feature rich. That would make for a tough decision. In that situation, the choice of power amp *could* just make the difference. For all that, I think these can be safely described as "first world problems"
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post #367 of 1745 Old 05-06-2019, 02:52 PM
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i say mr rock addict, that is a well thought out position on Dirac. I think the full version upgrade $100 USD?
i am running ribbon tweeters which i feel can use a bit of correction. based on me experiments with Room EQ, i will probably kick down for Room EQ with the TEAC NT-505 unless I do end up with the C658. If the C658 sticks around, i will further evaluate the Dirac as implemented in the NAD box.
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post #368 of 1745 Old 05-06-2019, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by wassup View Post
i say mr rock addict, that is a well thought out position on Dirac. I think the full version upgrade $100 USD?
i am running ribbon tweeters which i feel can use a bit of correction. based on me experiments with Room EQ, i will probably kick down for Room EQ with the TEAC NT-505 unless I do end up with the C658. If the C658 sticks around, i will further evaluate the Dirac as implemented in the NAD box.
That's close enough for the current pricing of Dirac Full. I looked at the TEAC model you mentioned but, for me, it just doesn't have the right features so at least I'm not in your position of dancing on a pinhead wondering whether to twist or stick . Even with the Parasound P6 being a potential option, the C 658 just has enough extra features to make it worth hanging on for Dirac Live to be implemented before finally giving in to the hi-fi related urge to hit the demos with relish and start wrestling with the audio quality vs features equation.

Happy listening all.

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post #369 of 1745 Old 05-07-2019, 07:39 AM
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SMH. I am glad i didn’t buy this unit.... having the full frequency for Dirac Live that is missing on the 658 released last fall is not what NAD intended. Its very misleading to tell customers that it’s coming only to further frustrate an already impatient customer base....This below was taken from the article.... Having control over subwoofer crossover settings is what really someone would need and they left this out.

“Room-correction and tone controls are accessed via the Dirac app, while NAD’s BluOS Controller app provides controls for selecting filters, adjusting subwoofer crossover settings, and disabling the Dirac processing, among other things.”

Last edited by Scopeboy; 05-07-2019 at 08:16 AM.
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post #370 of 1745 Old 05-07-2019, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Scopeboy View Post
SMH. I am glad i didn’t buy this unit.... having the full frequency for Dirac Live that is missing on the 658 released last fall is not what NAD intended. Its very misleading to tell customers that it’s coming only to further frustrate an already impatient customer base....This below was taken from the article.... Having control over subwoofer crossover settings is what really someone would need and they left this out.

“Room-correction and tone controls are accessed via the Dirac app, while NAD’s BluOS Controller app provides controls for selecting filters, adjusting subwoofer crossover settings, and disabling the Dirac processing, among other things.”
I am starting to think some thing like https://www.minidsp.com/products/str...ies/shd-series is the answer or a parasound p6 run through a mindsp ddrc-24
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post #371 of 1745 Old 05-07-2019, 10:35 AM
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Exactly, initially when the C658 was announced i was very excited, but the more research i did, i eventually went another route. I ended up with a PS Audio dac and M700 monoblocks...i def spent more money than i intended but in the end i think given what has happened with this product i chose wisely. A minidsp would give u fully what is needed with room EQ that the NAD in all honestly could have baked into this product but chose not to. Again, not trying to ruin everyone’s day with this news but NAD did in fact mislead people, there is no way to look at it any other way. For those of you who hung on, i hope sincerely that NAD rewards you with a simple and affordable upgrade path.....they could have hit a home run and instead hit a single...
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post #372 of 1745 Old 05-07-2019, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scopeboy View Post
SMH. I am glad i didn’t buy this unit.... having the full frequency for Dirac Live that is missing on the 658 released last fall is not what NAD intended. Its very misleading to tell customers that it’s coming only to further frustrate an already impatient customer base....This below was taken from the article.... Having control over subwoofer crossover settings is what really someone would need and they left this out.

“Room-correction and tone controls are accessed via the Dirac app, while NAD’s BluOS Controller app provides controls for selecting filters, adjusting subwoofer crossover settings, and disabling the Dirac processing, among other things.”

From day one they said it would be a basic Dirac implementation while full Dirac live would be available for $100. This has been the case from day one.
Dirac settings are handled via Dirac app. Totally makes sense.
BluOS app is used to set subwoofer crossover frequencies, number of subs (0,1,2), and the ability to enable/disables the Dirac filters. Totally makes sense.


When I listened to the M10 at Axpona they handed me the phone controlling the unit.
There is a switch in BluOS to enable/disable Dirac. As I recall this is on the audio settings page in BluOS.
When I spoke with the Dirac engineer asking about Bass Management (does the M10/C658 have the processing power) he said the M10 and C658 would be capable of running the Bass Management software but it would be up to NAD to determine if they will make that an option.

Ultimately, I don't believe a great deal of math is involved with actually running Dirac, all of the filter creation is done in the cloud. The until only processed audio through those filters.

Not sure what you see wrong with any of this, aside from how long it took to get to market. Pisses me off too.
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post #373 of 1745 Old 05-07-2019, 11:57 AM
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With all that you have said above being correct, i still think that the information release on many things that would work or not be operational at some point is the viewpoint i am coming from...it would seem to contradict earlier reports to what the C658 can actually do or not do without the $100 upgrade...and that is what i am bothered by.....not to mention that at nearly 6 months into a product life cycle many haven’t been able to experience what they thought would be available much earlier than now....we can agree on that point at least. I emailed someone from NAD back in early February and was told it was forthcoming soon....that wasn’t the case at all.
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post #374 of 1745 Old 05-07-2019, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scopeboy View Post
With all that you have said above being correct, i still think that the information release on many things that would work or not be operational at some point is the viewpoint i am coming from...it would seem to contradict earlier reports to what the C658 can actually do or not do without the $100 upgrade...and that is what i am bothered by.....not to mention that at nearly 6 months into a product life cycle many haven’t been able to experience what they thought would be available much earlier than now....we can agree on that point at least. I emailed someone from NAD back in early February and was told it was forthcoming soon....that wasn’t the case at all.
I eviscerated them via email the night before the announcement if it coming available in June.

I am plenty pissed at them.
BluOS update changed several things on the unit, however, there is no documentation of those changes.
Their support structure sucks
Manual states +/- 7db bass/treble controls when in reality it is 6db. (not that I care, just an example)
No mention of the crossover slope.
Nearly no mention of crossover in the manual, period.

Their communication sucks as a whole.
None of that has anything to do with the $100 for Dirac Live or how one has to use two apps, which does not bother me at all.
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post #375 of 1745 Old 05-08-2019, 04:52 AM
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for those of us on a budget
i emailed SMSL inquiring as to the availability of MQA
they said they are working on it
they will have two AK4497 based DACs the M300 and the M10
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post #376 of 1745 Old 05-08-2019, 08:02 PM
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Yes, I am aware of their recommendation. They suggest using a pair of these amps as monoblocks. There is also a TAS reviewer who states that he could not recommend the amp due to excessive high frequencies,

https://www.theabsolutesound.com/art...ne-amp/?page=4

which already seems to be a complaint about the C658.
While this is an old thread, I came across it and thought a comment would be in order.

The Absolute Sound Review is a bit of a Red Herring.

Vade used ONLY the KEF LS50 which for some reason interacts with this amp, or at least his pair did.

He has done a couple NuPRIME reviews (like the IDA-16) with his LS50's, and praised it quite highly.

The negative quality he assigned the STA-9 is generally the EXACT opposite of what is reported by most all other users.

It is the "most tube like" of amps, having built in even order harmonics.

So the caveat is rather specific (at this point) to KEF LS50 speakers.

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post #377 of 1745 Old 05-08-2019, 09:48 PM
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Originally Posted by bioforce View Post
While this is an old thread, I came across it and thought a comment would be in order.

The Absolute Sound Review is a bit of a Red Herring.

Vade used ONLY the KEF LS50 which for some reason interacts with this amp, or at least his pair did.

He has done a couple NuPRIME reviews (like the IDA-16) with his LS50's, and praised it quite highly.

The negative quality he assigned the STA-9 is generally the EXACT opposite of what is reported by most all other users.

It is the "most tube like" of amps, having built in even order harmonics.

So the caveat is rather specific (at this point) to KEF LS50 speakers.
Have you heard this unit? Heard it mated with a C658?

I am curious, as if it is a winner, it might pair well with the new Magnepan LRS.
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post #378 of 1745 Old 05-09-2019, 11:33 AM
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Have you heard this unit? Heard it mated with a C658?

I am curious, as if it is a winner, it might pair well with the new Magnepan LRS.
Yes, I have heard several of them (as a dealer), but have not heard the C658. I have a pair (bridged) in my personal system.

The LRS as per most will accurately produce the quality of signal and amplification presented to it.

AVRs will work, but more dedicated electronics will present higher quality. They even suggest monoblocs, which the STA-9 can be bridged to. ("The LRS was designed using high-end electronics and mono blocks")

And contrary to the suggestions of some, bridging the STA-9 to mono, "does not" make it any less stable, and in fact IMPROVES its performance (different than conventional bridging)

Hope that helps.

Regards,

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post #379 of 1745 Old 05-12-2019, 09:43 PM
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Before the upgrade, I think the sub was on no matter what. If you indicated a sub was present, it only enabled the x-over to the speakers.

Post upgrade it might be no sub output if not enabled. If you haven't I'd check audio setup in BluOS settings.

BTW, the new x-over mechanism is functional. I've been trying to improve my set up using REW to get some data. I found that dips around 80 and 100 Hz improved as I lowered the x-over setting, with 40Hz yielding the flattest curve between 25-110Hz with my room & gear.

Can you tell us what filters are applied when you turn on the sub- woofer outputs with the new firmware?
Are only the subwoofer outputs low-pass filtered and the mains are unfiltered, or are the main outputs also high pass filtered?

Thanks.
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post #380 of 1745 Old 05-13-2019, 06:07 AM
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Mains are high pass filtered.

At first I was a bit annoyed by this - removing low frequencies from my full range speakers - then discovered, through the use of Room EQ Wizard and a calibrated mic, I had loads of node/mode issues related to my left speaker placement.

Like most I have limited options for placement of L&R speakers but its still relatively generous at roughly 9'sq to move them around. I fiddled with placement but no matter where I moved it I would have an issue with frequencies under 70hz.

With that knowledge I put my speakers back where I have the best imaging.

I moved my subs (2) around until I found locations where mode/node issues were minimized at the listening position - testing each sub individually then as a pair.
Interestingly, individually each sub delivered great response to the listening position from 20-80hz. When both subs were on I had a few issues with comb of phase filtering that was resolved by adding 3.6ms delay to the signal of one sub.

When I brought the whole system back online - mains and both subs - I started playing with the crossover frequency on the NAD. Crossover started at 40hz, 50hz, 60hz, 70hz, 80hz, & 90hz. I found any setting under 80hz resulted in really nasty issues - comb filtering or phase, not sure. Something was really wrong.

I settled in at 80hz which resolved 90% of my issues.

My only real concern is a several DB drop over the octave served by the crossover. Honestly, I may not have known it, or several other items listed above if I were not using Room EQ Wizard to measure the results.

I am going to not worry about this again until I get Dirac running - I'll assume Dirac will resolve some of these for me.
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post #381 of 1745 Old 05-13-2019, 02:19 PM
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Can you tell us what filters are applied when you turn on the sub- woofer outputs with the new firmware?
Are only the subwoofer outputs low-pass filtered and the mains are unfiltered, or are the main outputs also high pass filtered?

Thanks.
With the BluOS 3.4.3 upgrade:

The sub has to be set to as one or two to be on now (previous version I found it on regardless of setting).

When on, I believe the crossover affects both the speakers (rolls off low frequencies) and sub (rolls off high frequencies). I don't know what the slopes are or whether or not he roll off starts exactly at the crossover frequency. The app lets you set crossover from 40 - 200 (I think on upper end) dynamically.

In the previous version enabling a sub definitely rolled off low frequencies to speakers presumably at 80 Hz. I assume the sub always had high frequencies rolled off at 80 Hz (however they filtered it). It was always on.

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post #382 of 1745 Old 05-13-2019, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by iH8usrnames View Post
Mains are high pass filtered.

At first I was a bit annoyed by this - removing low frequencies from my full range speakers - then discovered, through the use of Room EQ Wizard and a calibrated mic, I had loads of node/mode issues related to my left speaker placement.

Like most I have limited options for placement of L&R speakers but its still relatively generous at roughly 9'sq to move them around. I fiddled with placement but no matter where I moved it I would have an issue with frequencies under 70hz.

With that knowledge I put my speakers back where I have the best imaging.

I moved my subs (2) around until I found locations where mode/node issues were minimized at the listening position - testing each sub individually then as a pair.
Interestingly, individually each sub delivered great response to the listening position from 20-80hz. When both subs were on I had a few issues with comb of phase filtering that was resolved by adding 3.6ms delay to the signal of one sub.

When I brought the whole system back online - mains and both subs - I started playing with the crossover frequency on the NAD. Crossover started at 40hz, 50hz, 60hz, 70hz, 80hz, & 90hz. I found any setting under 80hz resulted in really nasty issues - comb filtering or phase, not sure. Something was really wrong.

I settled in at 80hz which resolved 90% of my issues.

My only real concern is a several DB drop over the octave served by the crossover. Honestly, I may not have known it, or several other items listed above if I were not using Room EQ Wizard to measure the results.

I am going to not worry about this again until I get Dirac running - I'll assume Dirac will resolve some of these for me.
I found that setting 40 Hz crossover lessened my dips at ~80 & 100 Hz. Afterward I realized I lost being able to get more bass (40-80 Hz) by increasing sub volume.

To make things more ornery I honestly don't know what I wasn't hearing due to dips (valleys) that REW was showing.

I planning to go two subs soon with intent to get below 80 Hz from subwoofers.

Audio/Video enthusiast
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post #383 of 1745 Old 05-20-2019, 08:28 AM
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Having to upgrade to dirac live for the full feature set, annoys me.
Early adopters always face a few obstacles and delays. Since day one NAD have said “*These features will be implemented via future software upgrades. Note: The C 658 will include a license for Dirac Live with the option for advanced users to upgrade to a Dirac Live Full Frequency version.” The majority of the benefit of DRC is below 500Hz. Some people/ systems/ rooms may notice benefits above that frequency range and for that small group there is an optional upgrade. Choice is good.

Take it easy. Enjoy the music.
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post #384 of 1745 Old 05-20-2019, 08:43 AM
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I am going to not worry about this again until I get Dirac running - I'll assume Dirac will resolve some of these for me.
Sounds like you’re on the right path. Step 1: Select good components. Step 2: Optimize speaker placement. Step 3: Apply passive room treatments. Step 4: Apply DRC. Measure and verify at each step along the way. Rinse and repeat as needed. This process is somewhat iterative and since few people have acoustically ideal listening rooms and must make compromises of some sort, what you’re really doing is circling the target and getting as close as you can.

Some people will choose to swap steps 3 and 4 due to cost. Once you have Dirac you can tweak in the digital domain to your heart’s content. But adding room treatments may not be financially or aesthetically palatable. And if you’re changing components often, DRC is easier to tweak than passive room treatments. Although I imagine most of us are working towards some ideal personal version of a system and simply refining what we already know and like. So once you have good pair of stereo L/R speakers and one or more subs the rest is just details. Of course as audiophiles we live or die on those details and getting the last few % optimization.
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post #385 of 1745 Old 05-20-2019, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Scopeboy View Post
not to mention that at nearly 6 months into a product life cycle many haven’t been able to experience what they thought would be available much earlier than now....we can agree on that point at least. I emailed someone from NAD back in early February and was told it was forthcoming soon....that wasn’t the case at all.
Delays are unfortunate but inevitable. Such is life as an early adopter. Of course there is risk in releasing a product with too many glitches. But we now live in an era where you’re buying into a platform that will be continually updated with new software features as long as the hardware and the manufacturer will support it. Think Apple iPhone. NAD has been moving in this direction for some time with BlueOS and MDC Slots for Future Expansion. In that kind of business model I like having the support of a bigger company like NAD as they have more resources they can bring to bear vs. a smaller outfit that might be less stable in the long run.
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post #386 of 1745 Old 05-20-2019, 09:58 AM
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Some technical information on Dirac Live Full Frequency. I’m still trying to find a detailed operation manual online. Downloading the iOS app doesn’t help me yet as I don’t have a NAD C 658 in my possession for the app to discover to manage the Dirac license.

live.dirac.com/features-and-upgrades/

Quote:
About Dirac Live

If you’ve purchased a NAD T 758 V3 or T777 V3, you’ve already experienced the power of Dirac Live room correction up to 500Hz. It’s simply one of the most powerful automatic room correction solutions available today, and produces stunning sound. But what happens if you want to go even farther? That’s where Dirac Live Full Frequency comes in.

Customize to Your Preferences—Even in Difficult Rooms

Dirac Live Full Frequency opens up additional capabilities that Dirac Live with the range up to 500Hz doesn’t offer.

Would you like to customize Dirac’s results to suit your own personal listening preferences? Do you have an unusual room or seating arrangement?

Dirac Live Full Frequency gives you the control you need to precisely tune for the best results.

Upgrade to Dirac Live Full Frequency , and you’ll enjoy the following capabilities:

Create custom Target Curves, apply them to specific speaker groups, then modify, store, and reuse them at will.

Adjust the Curtains (frequency ranges) where Dirac Live calculates corrections, and specify different Curtains for each speaker group.

Use third-party calibrated microphones. You’re no longer limited to the calibrated microphone we provide—with Dirac Live Full Frequency, you have a variety of microphones to choose from.

Create and rearrange speaker groups, rather than relying on the default groups assigned by Dirac Live.

Adjust test-tone levels individually for each speaker, which simplifies measurements if your amps or speakers are very different in terms of gain or efficiency.

Enjoy more flexibility, more control, and more options for stellar sound with Dirac Live Full Frequency.
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post #387 of 1745 Old 05-20-2019, 11:06 AM
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I imagine this will be the process to upgrade your C 658 when the opportunity arises

support.nadelectronics.com/hc/en-us/articles/360000158788-Upgrading-to-Full-Version-of-Dirac-Live-Room-Correction-for-NAD-

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How to activate your license and download the Full Version of Dirac Live Room Correction for NAD

Visit nadelectronics.com/dirac-live/ and follow the instructions below to activate your free license and download the Full Version of Dirac Live Room Correction for NAD.

Click "Sign up" to create a new account or sign in to your account, previous customers can use their current username and password.

Click "Activate license", enter the activation key above and click "Activate".

Click "Download" to download Dirac Live Room Correction for NAD.

Uninstall the Dirac Live LE – for NAD if you have it installed

Install the new Dirac Live Room Correction for NAD

After installation validate your license with the same credentials used in step 1. if you are not using the microphone shipped with your NAD product, if you make a 2-channel measurement, it is recommended to point it towards the speakers. If you are making a multichannel measurement, point it up towards the ceiling.

For DIRAC Frequently Asked Questions : dirac.com/faq-overview

For Dirac Live RCS Free User Manual: dirac.com/s/Dirac-Live-Room-Correction-Suite-UserManual-12-6y5d.pdf

For technical support visit: support.nadelectronics.com/hc/en-us
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post #388 of 1745 Old 05-20-2019, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by freedomgli View Post
Early adopters always face a few obstacles and delays. Since day one NAD have said “*These features will be implemented via future software upgrades. Note: The C 658 will include a license for Dirac Live with the option for advanced users to upgrade to a Dirac Live Full Frequency version.” The majority of the benefit of DRC is below 500Hz. Some people/ systems/ rooms may notice benefits above that frequency range and for that small group there is an optional upgrade. Choice is good.

Take it easy. Enjoy the music.
I think what is frustrating to folks is NAD initially indicated a January target for the DIRAC SW upgrade which we now expect to see in June. That and also because getting reliable info is a PIA.

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post #389 of 1745 Old 05-20-2019, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by freedomgli View Post
Some technical information on Dirac Live Full Frequency. I’m still trying to find a detailed operation manual online. Downloading the iOS app doesn’t help me yet as I don’t have a NAD C 658 in my possession for the app to discover to manage the Dirac license.

live.dirac.com/features-and-upgrades/
Having the NAD would help you until the SW is released and installed. The Dirac Live app won't see the device till then.

You might look at how things work on the M10. It got the upgrade in April.

My guess is it will work similarly on C658.

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post #390 of 1745 Old 05-21-2019, 07:34 PM
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I will be an early adopter of the full Dirac offering and will report back, though caveat emptor, folks - I'm one of the few that have weighed in on this thread that thought NAD did a reasonably good job of feature set/sound quality at the price point.
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Last edited by jameswilt; 05-22-2019 at 06:31 PM.
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