The Official NAD C658 Thread - Page 23 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #661 of 1749 Old 07-21-2019, 11:00 AM
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I dont know if its the best way to contact them, but I used this link:

https://support.nadelectronics.com/h...s/requests/new

And got a reply a few days later.

One would hope they follow this thread, as its probably the best source of error reports collected in one place.
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NAD C658 >
> Hypex UCD400HG/HxR > Dali Mentor 6
> BK XXLS400 FF
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post #662 of 1749 Old 07-21-2019, 12:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Hello group. I need some opinions...on a very difficult question:

So...after "unsuccessfully" using, the C658; to drive active Dynaudio Excite X14As (and I can't be sure, if my dissatisfaction with the sound...stemmed from the C658, its' balanced-outs; or the Dyns themselves); I went back, to a passive set-up.

I was going to move the C658 along...as the whole reason, behind an all-in-one unit, such as this; was to have ONE box, and active speakers. With the experiment failed; I fell back, into former habits. Auralic Aries Mini, DAC; modest IA (Musical Fidelity M2si) and passive Dyns (EMIT M10s).

Well...before moving the C658 along; I decided to try it, as fixed source (using single-ended ICs). As I'm sure you all know; when you set the source up, to be fixed; by default...it's -20db. To me...fixed should be 0db; unless you need to go lower, because of sensitivity...and therefore, not enough flexibility at the volume control.

So...I set my BluOS; to fixed, and moved the output...to 0db fixed. Well...ISSUE!

I don't want to say, that it was immediate or anything; but...at some point, soon thereafter...the sound got "funny". And then...I noticed the 'mute' indicator, on the M2si; starting to flicker. I IMMEDIATELY turned the amp off; but...when I went back to troubleshoot (changed ICs, SCs, and amps)...here's what I found:

One speaker, was "shot"; no sound output, at all. And the other, was only outputting from the Tweeter. I'm at a loss

There was no, bottoming-out of drivers (no...I was not playing, unusually loud at all); no "pop", or even physical damage...externally...to the drivers, whatsoever. MF Dealer has confirmed, the 'mute' indicator...typically has to do, with pre-amp as opposed to power-amp section.

I've owned a TON of equipment; but, have been lucky enough...to have had very few issues, with kit. But...my best, educated guess: feels like a "burned" resistor...in a cross-over. "Protection" maybe...from what the speaker perceived, as a "threat". The hard question is: what, is to blame??

MF dealer, wants me to try...another pair of speakers; to test, for warranty repair. I do have another pair of passive speakers; but as I told him...I'm hesitant. I don't want a situation, where it's like "yup; it blew-up...a 2nd pair of speakers. Testing successful"

He said I could send it to them, for testing; and they'll take it from there...but. What about my speakers!!?? Dyn dealer has said...even though they're under warranty; no dice.

Any thoughts, would be appreciated. I don't post this here...because I think, the C658 is to blame. Only because, it was part of the equation; I assume you are all, also experienced 'philes...and, to see if perhaps anyone does think, setting the fixed output to 0db, was a bad idea.

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Last edited by CDLehner; 07-21-2019 at 12:08 PM.
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post #663 of 1749 Old 07-21-2019, 01:02 PM
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I've been lurking on this forum and particularly this thread for a while and decided that now would be a good time to register to the forums. I own the C658 with the MDC HDM-2 and Dirac Live full -license, and I'm using it in a 2.1 setup with Gradient Evolution mkIV mains, Elac SUB-2070 subwoofer and Musical Fidelity M6i integrated amplifier (through HT input). I thougt I should shortly chime in to comment on @KarVi 's and @CDLehner s posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KarVi View Post
I dont know if its the best way to contact them, but I used this link:

And got a reply a few days later.

One would hope they follow this thread, as its probably the best source of error reports collected in one place.
I've encountered the exact same bugs you have mentioned in this thread and have reported them to NAD. I also gave them a link to this thread and they said they would go through it as "it will be helpful future firmware development." I'm planning to do a new calibration with lower sub-amp level to get rid of the idle rumbles and also because the sub tends to turn off while watching TV as the input signal level is so low (even though sub auto-on limit is set to 2 mV).
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post #664 of 1749 Old 07-21-2019, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post
Any thoughts, would be appreciated. I don't post this here...because I think, the C658 is to blame. Only because, it was part of the equation; I assume you are all, also experienced 'philes...and, to see if perhaps anyone does think, setting the fixed output to 0db, was a bad idea.
I have run the C658 as a source connected to Anti-Mode Dual Core 2.0 before the Dirac update and after that, as an pre-amp connected to the HT input of my Musical Fidelity M6i. As a source, I first had it at 0 dB and the Anti-Mode didn't complain (balanced connection). However, I noticed slight distortion on some records and lowered the output to -3 dB. It seems very unlikely that the C658 would output too high voltages at 0 dB setting. Musical Fidelity devices don't have the lowest output levels themselves, so they should be able to handle the C658 also.
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post #665 of 1749 Old 07-21-2019, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post
Any thoughts, would be appreciated. I don't post this here...because I think, the C658 is to blame. Only because, it was part of the equation; I assume you are all, also experienced 'philes...and, to see if perhaps anyone does think, setting the fixed output to 0db, was a bad idea.
As I understand it, you were using the C658 as purely a DAC?

Was Dirac enabled? Dirac can boost the signal up to 10dB and that could theoretically cause distortion with the level set at 0dB?
And it would probably mostly be in the bass region, which could explain the blown drivers or whatever happened.

It would have sounded pretty awfull I would think, before the speakers died.

Otherwise I dont see how this could be the fault of the C658, but would rather look towards the amplifier, allthough thats a very nice unit too.

This is the best theory I can come up with.

NAD C658 >
> Hypex UCD400HG/HxR > Dali Mentor 6
> BK XXLS400 FF
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post #666 of 1749 Old 07-21-2019, 05:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KarVi View Post
As I understand it, you were using the C658 as purely a DAC?

Was Dirac enabled? Dirac can boost the signal up to 10dB and that could theoretically cause distortion with the level set at 0dB?
And it would probably mostly be in the bass region, which could explain the blown drivers or whatever happened.

It would have sounded pretty awfull I would think, before the speakers died.


Otherwise I dont see how this could be the fault of the C658, but would rather look towards the amplifier, allthough thats a very nice unit too.

This is the best theory I can come up with.
I think you're dead-on KarVi! I had, just recently run DIRAC for the first time; and...I did mention, it sounded "funny" before things went totally ape-sh*t.

I think the good news...if you can call it such a thing; is it's probably just a resistor or cap, in the cross-over.

Fingers crossed

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post #667 of 1749 Old 07-21-2019, 08:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post
I think you're dead-on KarVi! I had, just recently run DIRAC for the first time; and...I did mention, it sounded "funny" before things went totally ape-sh*t.

I think the good news...if you can call it such a thing; is it's probably just a resistor or cap, in the cross-over.

Fingers crossed
Digital clipping is not something to underestimate, it can kill speakers just as easy as an amplifier thats clipping. And it sounds bad too.

I would set the output to -10dB to be on the safe side, when using Dirac.
With the theoretical 32 bit (118 dB) resolution, it should be unproblematic sound wise, as the volume control should be able to reduce a 24 bit signal down to -66dB (I remember having read that somewhere) before starting to throw away the LSB. And even lower with 16 bit signals. And the noise floor of the dac is low enough that it shouldn't be audible.

Actually I would like some hard data onto what is really inside this thing. Some documents talk about a 35 bit dac, others about a 32 bit dac, others again about a 32 bit dac with a 35 bit volume control.
Although with these kinds of bitdepths the differences are probably not that big.

Hope you get the speakers back to life

NAD C658 >
> Hypex UCD400HG/HxR > Dali Mentor 6
> BK XXLS400 FF

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post #668 of 1749 Old 07-22-2019, 08:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KarVi View Post
As I understand it, you were using the C658 as purely a DAC?

Was Dirac enabled? Dirac can boost the signal up to 10dB and that could theoretically cause distortion with the level set at 0dB?
And it would probably mostly be in the bass region, which could explain the blown drivers or whatever happened.

This is the best theory I can come up with.
If NAD has done its job correctly everything should be normalized to 0 dB or slightly below before it goes out of the device. So for example, if some frequencies are boosted by 6 dB, the whole signal level is attenuated by at least the same amount to preserve headroom and avoid clipping. If this is not the case, then NAD should cover the costs of repairing broken devices due to unexpected signal levels from the C658.
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post #669 of 1749 Old 07-22-2019, 02:12 PM
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The Official NAD C658 Thread

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Originally Posted by HRTF View Post
If this is not the case, then NAD should cover the costs of repairing broken devices due to unexpected signal levels from the C658.

I wouldn’t go that far. I can blow up almost any speaker using almost any amplifier. That doesn’t make it the preamplifier manufacturer’s fault. Users have a certain responsibility here also.

Last edited by freedomgli; 07-26-2019 at 06:40 AM.
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post #670 of 1749 Old 07-22-2019, 04:53 PM
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You could check specs to see if limit exceeded

Quote:
Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post

Any thoughts, would be appreciated. I don't post this here...because I think, the C658 is to blame. Only because, it was part of the equation; I assume you are all, also experienced 'philes...and, to see if perhaps anyone does think, setting the fixed output to 0db, was a bad idea.
Sorry to hear about losing the speaker.

When I connected my C658 to a prepro 7.1, I noticed that the posted specs had more distortion at max output (which I assume is what you get at 0dB or possibly higher via tone controls or Dirac). The THD is much less at 2V output than 4.5V. Don't know what that volume is (my guess -20dB, their default fixed). Unsure about saying bad, but would expect the sound to be poorer.

At any rate if you do get max output at 0dB, then specs are saying its 4.5V. Not sure what IHF load characteristics are. But you could look at input specs of what you connected it to, to see if they may have been exceeded.

I wasn't clear what you played when this happened. But to get the max out the signal had to be high as well. The inputs have their specs too. Don't know what BluOS would put out.

From the specifications tab:

LINE INPUT, PRE-OUT
THD (20Hz – 20kHz) <0.005% at 2V out
Signal-to-Noise Ratio>106dB (IHF; A-weighted, ref. 500mV out, unity gain)
Channel separation>80dB (1kHz)
>70dB (10kHz)Input impedance (R and C) 22 kohms + 100pF
Maximum input signal >4.5Vrms (ref. 0.1% THD)
Output impedanceSource Z + 240 Ohm
Input sensitivity 93mV (ref. 500mV out, Volume maximum)
Frequency response ±0.3dB (20Hz – 20kHz)
Maximum voltage output – IHF load >4.5V (ref. 0.1% THD)
Tone Controls Treble>±7.0dB at 20kHz; Bass: ±7.0dB at 60Hz; Balance: -10dB
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post #671 of 1749 Old 07-22-2019, 07:12 PM
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Is it okay to have the audio pre-out balanced XLR connected to one amp and the audio pre-out single-ended RCA connected to another amp at the same time?

I’m currently A/B testing two different amplifiers in my system. One is a 35wpc class A/B tube amp that has only RCA inputs. The other is a 200wpc solid state class D that has XLR. I’m only using one amp at a time but I power down the system to switch speaker cables from one amp to the other. When one amp is on the other is off for safety as tube amps don’t like being on with no load.
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post #672 of 1749 Old 07-23-2019, 08:32 AM
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Quote:
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I would go that far. I can blow up almost any speaker using almost any amplifier. That doesn’t make it the preamplifier manufacturer’s fault. Users have a certain responsibility here also.
Sure, regarding power amps that is true. But if NAD wouldn't compensate for the EQ's increased gains, all louder input signals would be clipped. This would be very easy to spot during the development process and quality verification where 0 dBFS sine sweeps are input to the system and the output is measured for frequency response and distortion among other things.
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post #673 of 1749 Old 07-23-2019, 09:30 AM
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First post....

At home I have a NAD M12 driving a pair of Kii IIIs, with Roon music coming over the network, a Linn playing vinyl, and a NAD tuner. Sounds rather good. M12 doesn't do Dirac, but the Kii's don't need it.

We recently upgraded our second home in Normandy (from tiny thatched cottage to a somewhat more spacious house) and the old system no longer seemed appropriate (Vanatoo Transparent One's and a Mac mini with Roon and a room-correcting DSP). So did some research and came over with a NAD C658 and a NuForce STA 200, because the C658 - like the M12 - has **fixed-level ** digital outputs which makes it kinda hard to hook up directly to active speakers with internal DSP - no volume control. So the idea for the new place was passive speakers (and much lower priced than the Kii's).

Bought a pair of Kef R7's from a very nice dealer in Rouen back in March. Installed the various bits of kit, hooked 'em up (bi-wired) and didn't sound too bad at all. Ran them in for a week or two. But it was clear that Dirac was needed - speakers needed to be a bit too close to the wall for best sound (domestically unacceptable to drag them out as far as they/I wanted).

Now just got back into the house, and updated the BluOS and then downloaded the Dirac app for a Mac portable, after setting up the Roon server to run on the 'real' computer in the office (now possible because of improved whole-house Wifi) rather than the Mac mini beside the NAD. (This way, Roon communicates over the network with the C658, so BluOS can - and does - show what's playing on the C658 front panel.)

Let's just say that the instructions aren't as clear as they could be (I'd had a MiniDSP Dirac box in the main system - for the previous speakers, so I had some familiarity). Should I plug the mic into the laptop or the C658? What did the sliders do? And so forth. In the end I just walked through the setup using the NAD mic, without tripod thingy - so measurements were limited.

OK, that improved the sound somewhat. or was I just imagining it? How do you turn Dirac on and off in the C658? Oh, eventually, I see that there's some new info in the BluOS control app. Yep, it's on.

So I bought the Dirac full license. Obviously, have to download a different app? use the same one? Where's the info?

Oh, eventually I see I have to "log in to the Mac Dirac app". Gah. Some searching - oh; it's in the menus.

Re-do the (limited) measurements. Slip the filter into the second filter slot on the 658. Fire up BluOS controller app. oooo looky! Now both filters turn up! And the 'full' filter is selected.

Play Mino Cinelu; not music one can listen to all day long, but most excellent bass for listening to rooms. Yep - better. Cleaner bass. More upper treble 'air'. Turn the Dirac off and listen and back on again - easily done, a bit of a changeover delay, but less than a second (I'd guess). Yes. Better. Check out A Walk Across the Rooftops (Blue Nile) - Heatwave seemed apposite. Yes. Better.

Phew.

Got a UMIK-1 on order. (I have one at home, but didn't bring it) I'll re-run the setup. measurements, including those higher than the ears, rather than at and below (the UMIK comes with a little tripod)

All in all, a system which sounds rather good. With the Dirac, much closer to the Kii+ M12 sounds. Now for lotsa listening.
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post #674 of 1749 Old 07-23-2019, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteWilson View Post

Let's just say that the instructions aren't as clear as they could be (I'd had a MiniDSP Dirac box in the main system - for the previous speakers, so I had some familiarity). Should I plug the mic into the laptop or the C658? What did the sliders do? And so forth.

Did you read the Dirac Live quick start guide for NAD products? The answers to your questions are covered there. You can plug the mic into the NAD C658 or your laptop computer but it’s easier and more automated if you just plug the included mic into the NAD unit directly as there’s less worry about calibration files or operating systems, sound cards and recording device settings.

The sliders are for adjusting the amp gain and mic sensitivity for the pink noise measurements. Again, it’s covered in the QSG. Be sure you’re using the target curve for Dirac Live Full Frequency as it is a different file than the standard (<500Hz) NAD target curve.

Dirac can be turned on/off and 1 of 5 Dirac filters selected via the remote control, the Dirac app or via BlueOS app.

There is a learning curve with any new technology. It’s pretty straightforward once you read the instructions and do it a couple of times. Yes there can be a bit of OCD trying to decide whether music sounds better with Dirac filter on or off. Lots of listening required. Good luck!
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post #675 of 1749 Old 07-23-2019, 03:17 PM
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I think I may have fixed the power-on issue but I don't have a Harmony to check it out.

I enabled Network Standby (On) and now the unit powers up with a *very* quick press of the power button. To validate, I disabled Network Standby (off) and I needed to hold the Power button on the remote for 2 seconds or so to get it to power up.

Can someone with a Harmony test this out? I think KarVi was right about the deep sleep mode for the processor and I think network standby just might keep it from going into that mode.
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post #676 of 1749 Old 07-23-2019, 11:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteWilson View Post
Re-do the (limited) measurements. Slip the filter into the second filter slot on the 658. Fire up BluOS controller app. oooo looky! Now both filters turn up! And the 'full' filter is selected.
You don't have to redo the measurements when upgrading. The measurements are already full frequency.

You can simply apply the full frequency (default) filter and then move the upper frequency from 500Hz to 20kHz (or what you prefer). It worked on my system.

There's a bit of a learning curve, and yes instructions could be better. But all in all I find Dirac easy to use in combination with the C658. There's a lot of flexibility with the 5 filters you can save into the unit.

I find it a rather good and enjoyable system as well.

Very happy with mine, despite a few quirks.

I find the sound quality to be extremely good.
This will always be up to what you're used to and what your preferences are, but I enjoy being able to suddenly hear nuances and details I've never heard or payed attention to before.
On a particular song, that I've heard probably hundreds of times, I can suddenly hear that the microphone that the female singer uses, is distorting when she really sings at full power. I have never had that revealed with such clarity before.
And there have been many such moments with this preamp.

NAD C658 >
> Hypex UCD400HG/HxR > Dali Mentor 6
> BK XXLS400 FF
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post #677 of 1749 Old 07-24-2019, 01:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KarVi View Post
You don't have to redo the measurements when upgrading. The measurements are already full frequency.

....

There's a bit of a learning curve, and yes instructions could be better. But all in all I find Dirac easy to use in combination with the C658. There's a lot of flexibility with the 5 filters you can save into the unit.

I find it a rather good and enjoyable system as well.

Very happy with mine, despite a few quirks.

I think we're in violent agreement!

-- P
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post #678 of 1749 Old 07-24-2019, 03:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KarVi View Post
On a particular song, that I've heard probably hundreds of times, I can suddenly hear that the microphone that the female singer uses, is distorting when she really sings at full power. I have never had that revealed with such clarity before.
And there have been many such moments with this preamp.
If you don't hear it without Dirac, I would rather suspect for Dirac distortion, and not the microphone / recording.

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post #679 of 1749 Old 07-24-2019, 03:43 AM
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If you don't hear it without Dirac, I would rather suspect for Dirac distortion, and not the microphone / recording.
It's not Dirac.

I can hear it on my headphones (Sennheiser HD558) driven by my Audioquest Dragonfly too.
I can also hear it with Dirac disabled.

But have never heard on my main system before. And with the C658 its even more clear than on my HD558's.

The point that I tried to make is that this preamp has opened up a world of details that I havent heard on my speakers before. And its not just microphones being overpowered, but also saxophones suddenly having new nuances, drums suddenly having more punch and the cymbals having more definition. And much much more.
For me this setup has opened a window into a lot of detail that beforehand I could only pick up with my headphones. And then some.

NAD C658 >
> Hypex UCD400HG/HxR > Dali Mentor 6
> BK XXLS400 FF
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post #680 of 1749 Old 07-24-2019, 03:47 AM
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And how does some hard rock / metal sound? It's not too harsh?

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post #681 of 1749 Old 07-24-2019, 04:09 AM
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Quote:
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And how does some hard rock / metal sound? It's not too harsh?
I don't think so. I find it pleasant to listen to, even though it has lots of details.

Guests who have listened have also commented upon how pleasant and revealing they found the sound.

It will of course be up to your other components, but you can do a lot with the Dirac target curve to soften the sound.

I generally probably like my stereo to be revealing more than forgiving. Not everybody shares this preference.
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> Hypex UCD400HG/HxR > Dali Mentor 6
> BK XXLS400 FF
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Thanks

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Originally Posted by masicycle View Post
I think I may have fixed the power-on issue but I don't have a Harmony to check it out.

I enabled Network Standby (On) and now the unit powers up with a *very* quick press of the power button. To validate, I disabled Network Standby (off) and I needed to hold the Power button on the remote for 2 seconds or so to get it to power up.

Can someone with a Harmony test this out? I think KarVi was right about the deep sleep mode for the processor and I think network standby just might keep it from going into that mode.
I have enabled Network Standby, and the unit has turned on fine two times after that. One of the times from my Harmony device.

But I wont declare it fixed yet, it has been to eratic before to conclude anything after so little usage.
But I'll keep an eye on it
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post #684 of 1749 Old 07-24-2019, 07:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by masicycle View Post
I think I may have fixed the power-on issue but I don't have a Harmony to check it out.

I enabled Network Standby (On) and now the unit powers up with a *very* quick press of the power button. To validate, I disabled Network Standby (off) and I needed to hold the Power button on the remote for 2 seconds or so to get it to power up.

Can someone with a Harmony test this out? I think KarVi was right about the deep sleep mode for the processor and I think network standby just might keep it from going into that mode.

This is how I have mine setup - I never have to pick up the NAD remote, like ever... I can be sitting anywhere in my house (not just line of sight) and power it up. The only remote I need is for the CD player which is rarely used, since I've got that stuff on a NAS drive. I don't know why anyone would want to manually power it on and off every time. Your Dirac settings also stay intact this way.



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post #685 of 1749 Old 07-24-2019, 10:36 PM
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Originally Posted by jameswilt View Post
This is how I have mine setup - I never have to pick up the NAD remote, like ever... I can be sitting anywhere in my house (not just line of sight) and power it up. The only remote I need is for the CD player which is rarely used, since I've got that stuff on a NAS drive. I don't know why anyone would want to manually power it on and off every time. Your Dirac settings also stay intact this way.
Its a nice functionality, and I understand that you like it (& why).

None the less, it should be possible to power the unit on from the remote (or the front of the unit) in any circumstance.

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> BK XXLS400 FF

Last edited by KarVi; 07-25-2019 at 02:31 AM.
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post #686 of 1749 Old 07-25-2019, 03:41 AM
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User review from a competing forum.

https://www.avforums.com/threads/nad...g-dac.2235564/

A quite positive review.

His experiences regarding Dirac seem very similar to my own.

NAD C658 >
> Hypex UCD400HG/HxR > Dali Mentor 6
> BK XXLS400 FF
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post #687 of 1749 Old 07-25-2019, 07:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by HRTF View Post
If NAD has done its job correctly everything should be normalized to 0 dB or slightly below before it goes out of the device. So for example, if some frequencies are boosted by 6 dB, the whole signal level is attenuated by at least the same amount to preserve headroom and avoid clipping. If this is not the case, then NAD should cover the costs of repairing broken devices due to unexpected signal levels from the C658.
Yeah; it would be nice...if an argument could be made for that. And I do think...to a certain extent, especially with "new" technology like this; the unit, should guard/protect...against a signal, that would melt caps, resistors (or heaven forbid; a voice-coil, as my speaker-tech has warned).

But...freedomgli is right, I'm afraid. Never going to happen

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post #688 of 1749 Old 07-27-2019, 01:07 AM
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After a few more days with Network Standby on, I have not experienced any problems with powering the unit on.

And it also does not forget Dirac and subwoofer settings anymore.

Its clearly not turned of in this mode, on my unit theres a green LED inside the unit, that stays lighted when its powered of now, which it did not do before.
I can live with this, as it removes most of the quirks I have experienced with the unit.

Still something NAD should fix asap though, I think.
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post #689 of 1749 Old 07-27-2019, 03:10 AM
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Yeah; it would be nice...if an argument could be made for that. And I do think...to a certain extent, especially with "new" technology like this; the unit, should guard/protect...against a signal, that would melt caps, resistors (or heaven forbid; a voice-coil, as my speaker-tech has warned).

But...freedomgli is right, I'm afraid. Never going to happen
Yeah, it would be interesting to know what was the end cause of the speakers going quiet. To clear any misconception regarding the signal levels and clipping due to Dirac, though, it's important to distinquish the difference in analog and digital levels.

If I have understood correctly, the suspicion now is that Dirac correction has raised the signal levels by several decibels so that the output signal becomes clipped with certain input signals. This clipped signal then broke something downstream from the C658. I still think that Dirac and NAD know their stuff well enough that when the output is equalized and positive gain is applied in the correction filters, the overall signal level must be attenuated by at least the same amount as the highest correction gain to prevent clipping. After this normalization the signal goes to the DAC and preamplifier. Now we are dealing with analog signals. This is where the manufacturer can decide the output voltage range. If it goes to tens of volts, you are sure to fry something downstream at full blast. It would be stupid for the manufacturer to allow such high voltages in the output, but the user still has the option to not turn the volume up so much.

However, if the signal is clipped before the DAC and preamp, the user has no way to avoid the clipping and the possibly caused damage, because regardless of the volume level, the signal is still clipped. In this case, there is a clear fault in the device and the manufacturer should be responsible for the broken components. On my Anti-Mode Dual Core 2.0 there was the option change the headroom manually. The unit would also tell if the signal was clipping. Every time I made a new correction filter, I would check for clipping by playing a 0 dBFS sine sweep (speakers muted of course) and adjust the headroom if necessary. The C658 doesn't have this manual adjustment and it doesn't tell the user if the signal is clipping. This furthermore increases the manufacturers responsibility to make sure every signal is scaled properly before it leaves the device.
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post #690 of 1749 Old 07-27-2019, 10:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by HRTF View Post
Yeah, it would be interesting to know what was the end cause of the speakers going quiet. To clear any misconception regarding the signal levels and clipping due to Dirac, though, it's important to distinquish the difference in analog and digital levels.

If I have understood correctly, the suspicion now is that Dirac correction has raised the signal levels by several decibels so that the output signal becomes clipped with certain input signals. This clipped signal then broke something downstream from the C658. I still think that Dirac and NAD know their stuff well enough that when the output is equalized and positive gain is applied in the correction filters, the overall signal level must be attenuated by at least the same amount as the highest correction gain to prevent clipping. After this normalization the signal goes to the DAC and preamplifier. Now we are dealing with analog signals. This is where the manufacturer can decide the output voltage range. If it goes to tens of volts, you are sure to fry something downstream at full blast. It would be stupid for the manufacturer to allow such high voltages in the output, but the user still has the option to not turn the volume up so much.

However, if the signal is clipped before the DAC and preamp, the user has no way to avoid the clipping and the possibly caused damage, because regardless of the volume level, the signal is still clipped. In this case, there is a clear fault in the device and the manufacturer should be responsible for the broken components. On my Anti-Mode Dual Core 2.0 there was the option change the headroom manually. The unit would also tell if the signal was clipping. Every time I made a new correction filter, I would check for clipping by playing a 0 dBFS sine sweep (speakers muted of course) and adjust the headroom if necessary. The C658 doesn't have this manual adjustment and it doesn't tell the user if the signal is clipping. This furthermore increases the manufacturers responsibility to make sure every signal is scaled properly before it leaves the device.
I'm curious too; but not that unsure. I could probably test it, easy enough: put the NAD back on the M2si. My guess is, DIRAC curve is still loaded. Keep speakers off the IA...and see, if the M2si's 'mute' indicator (presumable showing "overdrive"), starts to flickering.

But...knowing, doesn't change my result; and I'm fairly sure. Too big of a coincidence.

So...were I you, I'd be careful; and...pursue NAD for an answer and fix.

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