The Official NAD C658 Thread - Page 26 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #751 of 804 Old 08-11-2019, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by SpeedDemon View Post
With all that said, I love the C658. It's a total game changer for me being able to hook it up like this and stream effortlessly from Roon in superb quality thanks to the C658's excellent DAC, Dirac Live, and clean XLR outputs. Just need them to fix these issues which I'm relatively confident they will. I'm also in communication with the local NAD sales rep about these issues.
You would like to think that NAD would have QA'd the trigger in functionality on the C658 to detect any issues.

If, by the time I get a C658 (hopefully in a couple of months all being well), NAD hasn't addressed it I'll just forgo the trigger connection from Pioneer AVR to C658 - at least initially.

Hopefully a firmware update will come to resolve it.

I'm certainly looking forward to getting a C658, that's for sure!
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post #752 of 804 Old 08-11-2019, 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by SpeedDemon View Post
This is all I've heard back so far:

I'll keep you updated on what I hear from NAD.

I, too, have been considering the C658 for use in the same type of arrangement. Given that the features of the C658 beg for this manner of usage (independent streamer usage in HT pass-through configuration), I'm surprised the two issues you discovered made it this long without discovery and resolution. The issues sound like they can be fixed via firmware. Please keep the thread posted.



Thank you for notifying NAD and following-up with them. Such contributions are important and beneficial to all.
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post #753 of 804 Old 08-12-2019, 08:04 AM
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Out of interest...for those of you using the wired Ethernet connection on your C658:

Are you connecting it directly to a router?

If not, are you connecting to a Gigabit Ethernet switch (either managed or unmanaged) or a powerline extender?

I am looking to add powerline extenders in conjunction with a managed switch to my home network to connect a few devices. I won't be able to connect the C658 wired connection directly to the router as the router is located in a different room. I don't want to rely on wi-fi for Tidal music streaming as the lounge is in a bit of a dead spot.

Some powerline adapter kits, such as the TP-LINK WPA8630, have multiple Gigabit Ethernet ports on the extender part for connecting multiple devices.

It seems like this might be a good solution so that I don't have to wire every device (TV, Xbox, Satellite receiver, AVR, 4K blu-ray player, C658, etc) through the switch.

I don't believe powerline adapters like the one I mentioned have the same capabilities as a managed switch though (unless someone can correct me - please feel free to do so!).

If so, will there be any drawbacks using a powerline extender network connection for the C658, or should I just look to have every device in the system with an Ethernet port going via the managed switch?

Interested in any comments/recommendations!

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post #754 of 804 Old 08-12-2019, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nadfan View Post
Out of interest...for those of you using the wired Ethernet connection on your C658:

Are you connecting it directly to a router?

If not, are you connecting to a Gigabit Ethernet switch (either managed or unmanaged) or a powerline extender?

I am looking to add powerline extenders in conjunction with a managed switch to my home network to connect a few devices. I won't be able to connect the C658 wired connection directly to the router as the router is located in a different room. I don't want to rely on wi-fi for Tidal music streaming as the lounge is in a bit of a dead spot.

Some powerline adapter kits, such as the TP-LINK WPA8630, have multiple Gigabit Ethernet ports on the extender part for connecting multiple devices.

It seems like this might be a good solution so that I don't have to wire every device (TV, Xbox, Satellite receiver, AVR, 4K blu-ray player, C658, etc) through the switch.

I don't believe powerline adapters like the one I mentioned have the same capabilities as a managed switch though (unless someone can correct me - please feel free to do so!).

If so, will there be any drawbacks using a powerline extender network connection for the C658, or should I just look to have every device in the system with an Ethernet port going via the managed switch?

Interested in any comments/recommendations!
Powerline adapters should work well if they work. They're really just home/wiring dependent. Give them a try and see if they work well in your home... if they do then there are no drawbacks. Also consider MoCA adapters... they're often faster than Powerline.

With that said, if you don't have Ethernet throughout your home then I think it's better to invest your money in a good Mesh WiFi system first. Consider getting an Eero 3-pack: https://eero.com - The full-size Eero units support Wireless backhaul with Ethernet bridging meaning that the you can run an Ethernet cable out of it and into a multi-port switch and then to your C658 or directly into your C658.

The best solution though is to use Powerline/MoCA adapters in combination with a Mesh WiFi setup if you have the budget for it. You can use Powerline/MoCA adapters as an Ethernet backhaul between your Mesh WiFi devices if the Powerline/MoCA connections are faster.
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post #755 of 804 Old 08-12-2019, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by SpeedDemon View Post
Powerline adapters should work well if they work. They're really just home/wiring dependent. Give them a try and see if they work well in your home... if they do then there are no drawbacks. Also consider MoCA adapters... they're often faster than Powerline.

With that said, if you don't have Ethernet throughout your home then I think it's better to invest your money in a good Mesh WiFi system first. Consider getting an Eero 3-pack: https://eero.com - The full-size Eero units support Wireless backhaul with Ethernet bridging meaning that the you can run an Ethernet cable out of it and into a multi-port switch and then to your C658 or directly into your C658.

The best solution though is to use Powerline/MoCA adapters in combination with a Mesh WiFi setup if you have the budget for it. You can use Powerline/MoCA adapters as an Ethernet backhaul between your Mesh WiFi devices if the Powerline/MoCA connections are faster.
Thanks! I will give it some consideration for sure. I thought about using powerline adapters upstairs (where the router is located) but I'm getting very good wi-fi speeds since being upgraded by my service provider to fibre (yes, we only just got it where I live about 18 months ago!). Happily streaming Tidal to the Denon system in room adjacent to where the router is located. It may be that powerline adapters will the job perfectly well when streaming to the C658 (when I get one, of course!).

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post #756 of 804 Old 08-12-2019, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by nadfan View Post
Out of interest...for those of you using the wired Ethernet connection on your C658:

Are you connecting it directly to a router?
My C658 is wired. I have never set up the Wifi connection on it.

It is connected like this:

C658 <-> unmanaged gigabit switch <-> managed gigabit switch <-> ADSL router.

Whether or not power line adaptors will work is very much up to the quality of your power lines and how the power in your building is wired.
But my (limited) experiences is that when they work, they seem to be reliable.

The bandwith of the connection is probably not all that critical. Even if you stream 192k/24b, you should be able to get by on less than 100Mbit without problems. You could probably (almost) get by with 10Mbit
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post #757 of 804 Old 08-12-2019, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by KarVi View Post
My C658 is wired. I have never set up the Wifi connection on it.

It is connected like this:

C658 <-> unmanaged gigabit switch <-> managed gigabit switch <-> ADSL router.

Whether or not power line adaptors will work is very much up to the quality of your power lines and how the power in your building is wired.
But my (limited) experiences is that when they work, they seem to be reliable.

The bandwith of the connection is probably not all that critical. Even if you stream 192k/24b, you should be able to get by on less than 100Mbit without problems. You could probably (almost) get by with 10Mbit
Thanks KarVi!

Yes, I will not be using wi-fi on on the C658, only wired connection.

I live in a house built around 25 years ago, the wiring I would hope is still in pretty good shape!

Don't seem to suffer from any issues, none that I've noticed anyway.

I'd only have the need for one switch as the devices in the office (where the router is located) connect directly to the router via wired 1Gbps Ethernet.

I'm now actually wondering if I really need a managed switch for all stuff in the lounge, but they can be had for not much more money than unmanaged ones these days...

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post #758 of 804 Old 08-12-2019, 03:34 PM
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There should be no reason for a managed switch at home unless you need to manage VLANs as a requirement of your ISP (Internet Service Provider) and that requirement is very rare. Just get a cheap unmanaged gigabit switch.

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post #759 of 804 Old 08-12-2019, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by nadfan View Post
Out of interest...for those of you using the wired Ethernet connection on your C658:

Are you connecting it directly to a router?

If not, are you connecting to a Gigabit Ethernet switch (either managed or unmanaged) or a powerline extender?
Cable modem -> router -> unmanaged switch -> 658

The only issue I've found in this configuration, which is a known issue with the Node 2i (integrated into the C658), is discoverability of the C658 from the BluOS controller on Android devices.

Initial discovery with the BluOS controller can be literally impossible if you install the app on your mobile device before the C658 is on the network. Literally everything else on the network can see the C658, Spotify connect, the router, laptops on wireless running BluOS controller - everything but the BluOS controller installed on Android. The only thing that works is uninstalling the BluOS mobile app then reinstalling while the C658 is on network, which generally works on the first try. The BluOS guys keep saying over and over that this is a networking issue, when it is very clearly an issue with the BluOS controller.
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post #760 of 804 Old 08-12-2019, 09:33 PM
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C658>Managed Switch>Router>CableModem

I always choose a wired connection over wireless when it can be done easily and not unsightly. I happened to install four network drops where I located my rack; the space was one occupied by television, Tivo, and Cable.
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post #761 of 804 Old 08-12-2019, 10:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nadfan View Post
I live in a house built around 25 years ago, the wiring I would hope is still in pretty good shape!
It probably is in good shape.

There are other factors that could make it not work.
There could be other equipment making noise, that prevents them from working (and that could be anything).
Or the power could be distributed over different electrical phases of the mains supply, so that if the room where the connection comes in is on one phase, and the one where the C658 is placed is on another phase the adaptors wont be able to see each other.
If the rooms are on seperate fuses where your power comes into your building, you could have this problem.

I dont see the need for managed switches for this kind of use. But as you say, they are not expensive anymore. But any cheap switch will probably do the job.

I didn't experience problems with the android app in my setup, and I had it installed for days before I got the C658

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post #762 of 804 Old 08-13-2019, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nadfan View Post
You would like to think that NAD would have QA'd the trigger in functionality on the C658 to detect any issues.

If, by the time I get a C658 (hopefully in a couple of months all being well), NAD hasn't addressed it I'll just forgo the trigger connection from Pioneer AVR to C658 - at least initially.

Hopefully a firmware update will come to resolve it.

I'm certainly looking forward to getting a C658, that's for sure!
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris431 View Post
I, too, have been considering the C658 for use in the same type of arrangement. Given that the features of the C658 beg for this manner of usage (independent streamer usage in HT pass-through configuration), I'm surprised the two issues you discovered made it this long without discovery and resolution. The issues sound like they can be fixed via firmware. Please keep the thread posted.

Thank you for notifying NAD and following-up with them. Such contributions are important and beneficial to all.

Here's the latest reply from NAD:
Quote:
Originally Posted by NAD Customer Service
Thank you for advising how to replicate the Fixed Volume glitch. With your help, Software QA has replicated the issue and it is now in the queue for the developers to resolve in a future BluOS update. I do not have an ETA at this time.

Regarding the +12 V trigger issue, please advise the steps to replicate it.

Here's my reply to NAD:
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpeedDemon
The 12V trigger issue expected behavior is:
  1. Enable Network Standby
  2. Enable Analog Bypass
  3. Enable Auto Standby
  4. Connect 12V trigger from pre/pro to C658
  5. Connect 12V trigger from C658 to Amplifier
  6. Connect Unbalanced Analog connection from pre/pro to C658
  7. Connect Balanced Analog XLR from C658 to Amplifier
  8. Pre/pro powers on
  9. Pre/pro sends 12V trigger
  10. C658 receives 12V trigger
  11. C658 turns on
  12. C658 always switches to Analog Line 1
  13. C658 sends 12V trigger to amplifier
  14. Amplifier powers on
  15. Audio plays from pre/pro and is passed through the C658 undisturbed to the Amplifier
  16. Pre/pro powers off
  17. Pre/pro stops sending 12V trigger
  18. C658 stops receiving 12V trigger
  19. C658 powers off
  20. C658 sits in Network Standby mode
  21. Amplifier stops receiving 12V trigger
  22. Amplifier powers off
  23. Open BluOS app from iOS, macOS, or Windows
  24. Select the C658 in BluOS
  25. Play music to C658
  26. C658 receives signal from BluOS app to play music while in Network Standby
  27. C658 sends 12V trigger to amplifier
  28. Amplifier powers on
  29. C658 starts playing music from BluOS
  30. *I would expect that at any point while the C658 is in BluOS source mode that it would begin the sequence at Step #10 if that were initiated from the Pre/Pro and take the C658 out of BluOS source mode.
  31. Stop playing music from BluOS
  32. Auto Standby on C658 times out
  33. C658 powers off
  34. C658 sits in Network Standby mode
  35. Amplifier stops receiving 12V trigger
  36. Amplifier powers off

This is what I'm actually experiencing:
  1. Enable Network Standby
  2. Enable Analog Bypass
  3. Enable or Disable Auto Standby
  4. Connect 12V trigger from pre/pro to C658
  5. Connect 12V trigger from C658 to Amplifier
  6. Connect Unbalanced Analog RCA from pre/pro to C658
  7. Connect Balanced Analog XLR from C658 to Amplifier
  8. Pre/pro powers on
  9. Pre/pro sends 12V trigger
  10. C658 receives 12V trigger
  11. C658 turns on
  12. C658 doesn't switch to switches to Analog Line 1... I have to manually switch to Analog Line 1 (defeating the point of automation through the 12V trigger)
  13. C658 sends 12V trigger to amplifier
  14. Amplifier powers on
  15. Audio plays from pre/pro and is passed through the C658 undisturbed to the Amplifier
  16. Pre/pro powers off
  17. Pre/pro stops sending 12V trigger
  18. C658 stops receiving 12V trigger
  19. C658 powers off
  20. C658 sits in Network Standby mode
  21. Amplifier stops receiving 12V trigger
  22. Amplifier powers off
  23. Open BluOS app from iOS, macOS, or Windows
  24. Select the C658 in BluOS
  25. Play music to C658
  26. NOTHING HAPPENS
  27. ​WORKAROUND: Disconnect 12V trigger between Pre/Pro & C658
  28. Play music to C658
  29. C658 receives signal from BluOS app to play music while in Network Standby
  30. C658 sends 12V trigger to amplifier
  31. Amplifier powers on
  32. C658 starts playing music from BluOS
  33. *I would expect that at any point while the C658 is in BluOS source mode that it would begin the sequence at Step #10 if that were initiated from the Pre/Pro and take the C658 out of BluOS source mode.
  34. Stop playing music from BluOS
  35. Auto Standby on C658 times out
  36. C658 powers off
  37. C658 sits in Network Standby mode
  38. Amplifier stops receiving 12V trigger
  39. Amplifier powers off
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post #763 of 804 Old 08-13-2019, 01:08 PM
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That is an excellent post SpeedDemon! Let's hope NAD can resolve both the fixed volume and 12V trigger issues in a timely manner. I'm a couple of months away from getting a C658 so hopefully it will all be resolved by then (I hope!). Even if they're not, it won't preclude me from getting one, but it would be great if these issues are sorted and it all works the way it should
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post #764 of 804 Old 08-13-2019, 05:46 PM
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Latency With Home Theater Pass-Through Use Resulting in Audio Sync Issues

Does anyone know the latency caused by the C658 when using it as a pass-through from an AVR/Pre-Pro?
Asked another way, has anyone using the C658 as a pass-through from their AVR/Pre-Pro noticed audio sync issues and if so, how did you resolve the issue? Have you played videogames with this setup?

There are a number of issues raised by this question. The answers may render the question without consequence in the context of watching video. However, the answer as to C658 latency will likely be relevant to those who use their system to videogame.

I am considering the C658 to use as a streamer/preamp connected to my amp, as well as passing through my AVR/Pre-Pro for when I want to watch movies/TV. I am also now considering the MiniDSP SHD which has similar functions to the C658 (DIRAC streamer/preamp w/pass-through functionality). It has been stated that the MiniDSP SHD has a 25ms latency regardless of whether Dirac Live is engaged or not when using it as a pass-through. SOURCE . Such latency could be bothersome - both for dialogue (lip sync - particularly for non-multi-channel sources that will use the L/R speaker) and for ambient sounds (rear channels and center not aligned with the L/R audio). I'd like to examine the issue specifically (latency of the C658) and more generally (can the latency be resolved).

What is the latency of the C658 in pass-through mode? This is likely best directed to NAD but perhaps some here have noticed audio sync issues when using its pass-through mode.

The second question is whether the latency can be mitigated. There are two forms of sync issues raised by latency in only 2 channels: (1) Syncing of all channels together when only 2 are affected; (2) Reconciling delays to mitigate audio/video sync b/w outputs (audio & video).

In my setup, I intend to use a pre-pro (Integra 80.2) with Audyssey XT32. With DIRAC turned off when in pass-through mode, would the Audyssey XT32 (ran after inserting the C658 into the chain) correct for any such delays? My initial hunch is that it should - any delays in the L/R caused by the C658 are akin to increasing the distance of the L/R (making them sound further away than they really are). Since Audyssey measures and adjusts for distance, I would assume Audyssey would mitigate the latency caused by the C658 (or MiniDSP). Thus, Audyssey should address the problem of the L/R channels being, initially and without correction, out of sync with the other channels (which do not go through the C658).

With all 5 channels now synced via room correction (assumption concluded from above), would this introduce audio/video sync issues that have to be addressed separately. I think the answer depends. If the source goes through the AVR/prepro to handle both audio & video, then there shouldn't be any independent syncing issue since the AVR/prepro handles similar syncing of the room corrected audio/video in the normal course. If the source goes to the display separately or directly (rather than through the AVR) there would be the same sync issues inherent in such a setup, although more elevated than normal (from larger than normal delays to account for the L/R latency). Under such a setup, one has to address sync issues in any event - adding the C658 would not create a new problem.

What was initially a question has turned into a thought experiment in which I have concluded that any latency created by the C658 are of no consequence if the source audio/video is passed through the AVR/prepro that uses room correction. Accordingly, it should be a non-issue for watching TV/video. The same cannot be said for those using their system to videogame. The added audio/video latency created by the AVR/prepro to account for any pass-through latency would likely be noticeable.

I'm happy to be corrected as to any of my thoughts on the subject.

Last edited by chris431; 08-13-2019 at 06:12 PM.
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post #765 of 804 Old 08-13-2019, 08:19 PM
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If there was measurable latency then Audyssey would have detected it on my pre/pro when I ran the calibration. My calibration detected no latency though and the speaker distances are identical to what they were/are with/without the C658.

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post #766 of 804 Old 08-13-2019, 10:31 PM
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Originally Posted by SpeedDemon View Post
If there was measurable latency then Audyssey would have detected it on my pre/pro when I ran the calibration. My calibration detected no latency though and the speaker distances are identical to what they were/are with/without the C658.

Thanks for the reply. That's good to know.
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post #767 of 804 Old 08-14-2019, 03:25 PM
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I've been thinking about moving to a C658 from my T758 v3 because for critical listening I'm all about two channel. But I'm dabbling in surround for movies and I may end up liking it. I KNOW I would miss the center channel because it really does help my wife and I with dialog, and that's a concern.

Would it be lunacy to consider picking up a C658 to integrate into the system? I'm already not using the internal front LR amps in the T758, instead having it feed my monoblocks.

So for Movies:
A/V source HDMI to T758. Then internal amps to center and surround speakers and pre-out to the C658 which drives the monoblocks and FL/FR speakers. And HDMI out to monitor, obviously.

And for Music:
BluOS in the C658 to monoblocks and speakers.

Pros:
A higher end (better sound?) for two-channel music (don't have or care about multichannel music).
Can use my fancy XLR cables, which my monoblocks typically tend to sound better with (could be wishful thinking, if I'm honest).
No extra circuitry in play for music listening.
Retain center channel.
Option to dabble with surround channels.

Cons:
Cost.
Complexity to set up*
Not intuitive to use*
Identical remotes prone to user error*
Wasted resources (duplication of inputs, preamp etc)


* So are these true? How would I balance things so that volumes are in sync, so to speak. And thinking I would have to set the volume on the C658 to a predetermined level each time before watching movies.

Input from much more tech-saavy people gratefully accepted...

Cheers,
Robert
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post #768 of 804 Old 08-14-2019, 05:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phydeaux View Post
I've been thinking about moving to a C658 from my T758 v3 because for critical listening I'm all about two channel. But I'm dabbling in surround for movies and I may end up liking it. I KNOW I would miss the center channel because it really does help my wife and I with dialog, and that's a concern.

Would it be lunacy to consider picking up a C658 to integrate into the system? I'm already not using the internal front LR amps in the T758, instead having it feed my monoblocks.

So for Movies:
A/V source HDMI to T758. Then internal amps to center and surround speakers and pre-out to the C658 which drives the monoblocks and FL/FR speakers. And HDMI out to monitor, obviously.

And for Music:
BluOS in the C658 to monoblocks and speakers.
Why not stick with just the T758?

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post #769 of 804 Old 08-14-2019, 06:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpeedDemon View Post
Why not stick with just the T758?
Well, er, I think I kind of answered that. I know I'm a little long-winded so maybe your eyes glazed over...

I want the benefit of the best possible two-channel sound for listening to music and I believe that means the C658 over the T758. But then I have no center channel or surround options. Hey, maybe I'm totally wrong and the C658 won't sound any better at all - in which case I'm happy to be educated. It's not like the T758 sounds bad, after all...

Cheers,
Robert
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Well, er, I think I kind of answered that. I know I'm a little long-winded so maybe your eyes glazed over...

I want the benefit of the best possible two-channel sound for listening to music and I believe that means the C658 over the T758. But then I have no center channel or surround options. Hey, maybe I'm totally wrong and the C658 won't sound any better at all - in which case I'm happy to be educated. It's not like the T758 sounds bad, after all...

Cheers,
Robert
My limited experience with the T758 is that it sounds fantastic. I personally don’t think the C658 would offer an improvement over your T758 if it’s optimized for your configuration.

Are you using Dirac Live yet?

Do you have a sub/subs?

Are you looking for any specific improvements?

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My limited experience with the T758 is that it sounds fantastic. I personally don’t think the C658 would offer an improvement over your T758 if it’s optimized for your configuration.

Are you using Dirac Live yet?

Do you have a sub/subs?

Are you looking for any specific improvements?
I have not yet set up Dirac. I know, I know... And I WILL do it and expect it will make a nice improvement. Not that I'm displeased with the sound, far from it. I DO have a sub and it's the reason I have not yet done the Dirac yet - I live out in the sticks and have a sub cable on order.

I'm just trying to squeek the last bit of quality while I've got changes happening and the gear is not yet fully organized, cables tucked away etc. Previously my "preamp" was an Oppo 105 and I liked the clean sound of minimal components. Previous to that I had a Denon and a Parasound prior to that. But the monoblocks and speakers have not and will not be changing. And in every setup, XLR cables provided me better and cleaner performance, with a lower noise floor than did single ended cables. And I have a hunch the same would be true here.

Am I chasing rainbows? Yeah, it's quite possible. Will it actually sound better? Perhaps very slightly. Will it be worth it? Almost certainly not, and yet...

I guess I'm just looking for someone to step in and say that hooking the two together is stupid, won't work, will be hellish to configure and painful to use. My hair will fall out, my teeth will turn green and my dog will bite me. Fine, yeah, dumb idea.

Having just read the C658 manual, though, it seems that each input can be set as fixed or variable level - so that takes care of my worry over level matching. And the remote is different than the T758, so that's not an issue...

Cheers,
Robert
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I have not yet set up Dirac. I know, I know... And I WILL do it and expect it will make a nice improvement. Not that I'm displeased with the sound, far from it. I DO have a sub and it's the reason I have not yet done the Dirac yet - I live out in the sticks and have a sub cable on order.

I'm just trying to squeek the last bit of quality while I've got changes happening and the gear is not yet fully organized, cables tucked away etc. Previously my "preamp" was an Oppo 105 and I liked the clean sound of minimal components. Previous to that I had a Denon and a Parasound prior to that. But the monoblocks and speakers have not and will not be changing. And in every setup, XLR cables provided me better and cleaner performance, with a lower noise floor than did single ended cables. And I have a hunch the same would be true here.

Am I chasing rainbows? Yeah, it's quite possible. Will it actually sound better? Perhaps very slightly. Will it be worth it? Almost certainly not, and yet...

I guess I'm just looking for someone to step in and say that hooking the two together is stupid, won't work, will be hellish to configure and painful to use. My hair will fall out, my teeth will turn green and my dog will bite me. Fine, yeah, dumb idea.

Having just read the C658 manual, though, it seems that each input can be set as fixed or variable level - so that takes care of my worry over level matching. And the remote is different than the T758, so that's not an issue...

Cheers,
Robert
I think the issues that I'm currently experiencing in a few posts up from this one (starting at Post 741) will explain why you, at least currently, wouldn't want to use a C658 inline with a T758 given your concerns about usability.

I love the C658, but if I were able to use a T758 as my processor then I wouldn't consider using a C658 additionally for 2ch. The T758 has excellent sound quality, will sound even better in your case with Dirac Live, and can serve as an equally competent surround + 2ch processor.

My opinion is that you already already landed on a great solution with the T758 and that you'd be fighting an uphill and unnecessary battle by adding a C658.

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I think the issues that I'm currently experiencing in a few posts up from this one (starting at Post 741) will explain why you, at least currently, wouldn't want to use a C658 inline with a T758 given your concerns about usability.



I love the C658, but if I were able to use a T758 as my processor then I wouldn't consider using a C658 additionally for 2ch. The T758 has excellent sound quality, will sound even better in your case with Dirac Live, and can serve as an equally competent surround + 2ch processor.



My opinion is that you already already landed on a great solution with the T758 and that you'd be fighting an uphill and unnecessary battle by adding a C658.
Ok, crystal clear now what some of the challenges are. It's early days, though, for the C658 and it appears NAD are certainly working through various bugs and options in the T758 thread - I would be shocked if they don't address these items also. But fair warning, thank you.

Cheers,
Robert
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I have not yet set up Dirac. I know, I know... And I WILL do it and expect it will make a nice improvement. Not that I'm displeased with the sound, far from it. I DO have a sub and it's the reason I have not yet done the Dirac yet - I live out in the sticks and have a sub cable on order.
****
Am I chasing rainbows? Yeah, it's quite possible. Will it actually sound better? Perhaps very slightly. Will it be worth it? Almost certainly not, and yet...

I guess I'm just looking for someone to step in and say that hooking the two together is stupid, won't work, will be hellish to configure and painful to use. ****

Having just read the C658 manual, though, it seems that each input can be set as fixed or variable level - so that takes care of my worry over level matching. And the remote is different than the T758, so that's not an issue...

The C658 is designed for use exactly as you intend. Actual usage should be fairly seamless once the bugs are worked out (re: volume issue just discussed). However, you're unlikely to experience any benefit from adding the C658. You have a T758 (which uses BluOS, streams and provides Dirac) feeding independent amps for the L/R. In essence, you already have a C658 (a BluOS streamer pre w/Dirac) plus a few additional features (surround channels, amps and processing). The situation might be different if there were significant differences in the tiers of the two products but the gap between the two here is probably fairly small and likely to be mitigated by DIRAC. Sure, could the C658 have a better analog out stage, better DAC's, and cleaner power/less noise? I would hope so. Is it likely to be significantly better to make it noticeable, particularly in light of the impact that Dirac will have on the final output? Unlikely.


If you're looking to push the 2-channel quality of your setup, you'd likely have to go to products that have more emphasis on their DAC/Analog stages such as the Teac NT-505 ([EDIT - the Teac has no analog in to support passthrough so it does not offer the use scenario being discussed for the C658] and also has no room correction) or PS Audio Directstream (which doesn't have the pass-through function of the C658 or room correction, and in your use scenario would have to be set-up as a standard source that would be impacted by the quality of the T758 analog stages).


Alas, your proposed use case is exactly what the C658 was designed for. Please keep us posted if you do get a C658. It'd be interesting to hear one's opinion comparing the two units given their similar value range.
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Ok, I'm convinced. I appreciate everyone's input: I find this a and rare honest resource of information and experience.

I will not go ahead with the purchase of a C658, but I am still curious why it would be 30% more expensive for much less capability/features if its essentially the same components. I understand it's more niche, therefore likely to generate less sales to recover costs.. Is that it?

Anyway, thank again for saving me from a foolish purchase.

Cheers,
Robert
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I am still curious why it would be 30% more expensive for much less capability/features if its essentially the same components. I understand it's more niche, therefore likely to generate less sales to recover costs.. Is that it?
I think it costs more because its niche and the typical customer is accustomed to paying NAD's current asking price or more for a product in this category.

As an aside, as much fun as I'm having with the C658 right now hooked up inline with my pre/pro, I'm likely going to go the opposite direction of what you were considering... I'll probably move the C658 to a dedicated 2ch setup somewhere in my house (due to current issues) and replace both my C658 and Marantz AV7703 pre/pro with NAD's M17 v2.

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post #777 of 804 Old 08-15-2019, 08:27 AM
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Teac NT-505 was offered up as an alternative to the C758 for two-channel focused audio improvement, presumably connected to the AVR in a HT-passthrough function because that's what we were discussing... Yet I see no analog inputs on the Teac. So, how would that work?

Not wanting to take this thread off topic, just wanting to have the suggestion clarified.

Cheers,
Robert
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Teac NT-505 was offered up as an alternative to the C758 for two-channel focused audio improvement, presumably connected to the AVR in a HT-passthrough function because that's what we were discussing... Yet I see no analog inputs on the Teac. So, how would that work?

Not wanting to take this thread off topic, just wanting to have the suggestion clarified.

Cheers,
Robert
It wouldn't. That was my mistake (in thinking that the TEAC had passthrough - it doesn't as you note). Sorry about that. Will edit that post.
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It wouldn't. That was my mistake (in thinking that the TEAC had passthrough - it doesn't as you note). Sorry about that. Will edit that post.
No apologies needed, slip of the tongue is all. I'm not totally saavy with current gear so I wasn't entirely sure. Thanks for confirming.

The Teac looks like a heck of a nice unit, though, if I had to space to break my two-channel gear away from the HT stuff for a nice listening room. Alas... married and not wealthy, so that's not practical.

Thanks for the brief non-NAD input.

Cheers,
Robert
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No apologies needed, slip of the tongue is all. I'm not totally saavy with current gear so I wasn't entirely sure. Thanks for confirming.

The Teac looks like a heck of a nice unit, though, if I had to space to break my two-channel gear away from the HT stuff for a nice listening room. Alas... married and not wealthy, so that's not practical.

Thanks for the brief non-NAD input.

Cheers,
Robert

Like you, I'm also looking to enhance my 2-channel playback in a theater system. I do not want to split it into multiple systems at this time either. I haven't looked into the issue, but our aversion to buying a non-pass through streaming device in order to avoid the analog stages of the prepro/AVR may not be fully warranted. But, I have 2 general beliefs guiding my current criteria: (1) The quality of a streamer and DAC are significantly impacted by the quality of analog stages - thus, you have to be equally concerned about the analog stages of the pre/AVR if you use a DAC/streamer as standard sources; which leads to (2) If you can avoid additional connections, it's best to do so. Thus, my desire to find a streaming unit that can connect directly to the amp. My prepro (Integra 80.2) is a nice unit but I'd still prefer to avoid the unknown implementation of the analog stages (the issue of whether an AVR/prepro still processes analog inputs/outputs is a significant issue as, unfortunately, many units even in "bypass" mode still perform ADC & DAC on inputs).

If the reason you are looking at the C658 isn't because of the above-aversion, then you really should consider expanding the scope of possible streamers. Once you eliminate the pass-through requirement, the choices increase significantly (and since the expense of the pass-through is eliminated more effort/$ can go into the units as standard sources). But, again, I would make sure that the analog input is untouched by the T758 - otherwise you might as well just use its internal streamer no matter the quality of the independent streamer hooked up to it) AND that you do not intend to use DIRAC (of the T758).

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