The Official NAD C658 Thread - Page 45 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1321 of 1566 Old 01-17-2020, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by EB1000 View Post
The static noise from subwoofer output is not a software issue. It is hardware issue. NAD has confirmed that to me. I still haven't got my replacement yet, but if it will still suffer from this problem, then I will return it and seem for an alternative.

If you hear constant noise from the sub when line 1 is selected, then you'll soon get the random static pops. It looks like you got another unit from the same bad batch.

Can you please try to convince other C658 users here to conduct the line 1 subwoofer noise test? I've asked it before but no one has cooperated with me.

Unplug any rca cable from line 1. Make sure subwoofers are enabled. Select line 1. Listed for constant scratching noise coming from the subwoofer outputs when you turn up the volume. Now plug an rca cable into line 1 and you should notice that the constant noise disappear and replaced by random pops and clicks instead.


Please ask others to try this test and report back.

NAD told me that this is not normal and indicative of a hardware malfunction.
EB, I may give this a try this weekend. However, I believe in a previous post you had reported that you need to hook up the subwoofer output to full range speakers. In this post, you seem to back off of that requirement and suggest that you can do the test with your subwoofer. Please clarify if I can do this test using the subwoofer connected as is. Does crossover setting matter? Also, are saying to just plug only an RCA interconnect into line 1 or do you need to have a source connected to it for the second part of your test?
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post #1322 of 1566 Old 01-17-2020, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by jharrington View Post
EB, I may give this a try this weekend. However, I believe in a previous post you had reported that you need to hook up the subwoofer output to full range speakers. In this post, you seem to back off of that requirement and suggest that you can do the test with your subwoofer. Please clarify if I can do this test using the subwoofer connected as is. Does crossover setting matter? Also, are saying to just plug only an RCA interconnect into line 1 or do you need to have a source connected to it for the second part of your test?
You can still hear the scratching noise from the subwoofer itself if volume is decent. But the noise is much more noticeable with full range speakers. I'd appreciate if you could test and report back.

Thanks

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post #1323 of 1566 Old 01-17-2020, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by EB1000 View Post
You can still hear the scratching noise from the subwoofer itself if volume is decent. But the noise is much more noticeable with full range speakers. I'd appreciate if you could test and report back.

Thanks

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As for the crossover settings, you can try leaving them as is. If you can't hear the noise, change the cross to 200Hz.

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post #1324 of 1566 Old 01-17-2020, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by EB1000 View Post
The static noise from subwoofer output is not a software issue. It is hardware issue. NAD has confirmed that to me.

If you hear constant noise from the sub when line 1 is selected, then you'll soon get the random static pops. It looks like you got another unit from the same bad batch.

Don't bother breaking it in. Contact the seller and request another replacement from a newer batch and not the old stock they have in the shop. Also contact NAD support again. They should start recalling the bad units.

I reported to NAD support again and they told me it is indicative of a software issue, but they would forward my findings to the engineering team for investigation.


I'm going to be out of town for a bit and won't have time to do any more testing until the end of the month. Considering the C658 has a 2yr warranty I've still got plenty of time to let this play out or give up and find a better alternative.
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post #1325 of 1566 Old 01-17-2020, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by jb357 View Post
I reported to NAD support again and they told me it is indicative of a software issue, but they would forward my findings to the engineering team for investigation.


I'm going to be out of town for a bit and won't have time to do any more testing until the end of the month. Considering the C658 has a 2yr warranty I've still got plenty of time to let this play out or give up and find a better alternative.
A software issue should affect all users, not just a few. Let's wait for other users to be kind and curious enough to conduct such a simple test.

Here are the full instructions to re-create the issues:

Scratching noises from subwoofer outputs:

1. Enable subwoofer output from setup.
2. Set the crossover to any desired value
3. Select Line 1, but DO NOT connect an RCA cable to Line 1
4. Connect a subwoofer to the subwoofer outputs on the C658. or connect any other amplifier with speakers to the subwoofer outputs, such as headphones amp
5. Listen while the master volume is above -20db. Make sure the subwoofer gain is high enough
6. Can you hear the constant scratching noises?
7. Connect an RCA cable to Line 1. It should drastically attenuate the noise.


Low subwoofer output volume

1. Disable the subwoofers from settings
2. Connect either a digital or analog source to coax/optical or line 1, or use the USB input
3. Play a 50Hz test tone when the master volume is at 0db (do not connect an amplifier)
4. Connect either an oscilloscope or DVM to the left or right pre-outs (single-ended RCA)
5. Observe the signal voltage (should be about 2V RMS).
6. Enable the subwoofers from settings
7. Set crossover point to 200Hz (high as possible)
9. play the same 50Hz test tone.
8. Connect the DVM or oscilloscope to the subwoofer outputs instead of the man pre-outs
9. Make sure the same master volume level is maintained (0db), now observe the signal voltage.
10. The voltage of the same 50Hz test tone coming from the subwoofer outputs should drop from 2V RMS, to around 0.8V RMS, which indicates that there is a major difference in the subwoofer level compared to the speakers level.
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post #1326 of 1566 Old 01-17-2020, 11:18 AM
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In the midst of all the troubleshooting going on, here is another, very positive review of the unit:


Apart from a few factual errors about the DAC's in the unit, otherwise it seems the reviewer is rather impressed with the features and the SQ.

I have done the scrathing noise test on my setup. I cant hear anything from -20 all the way up to 0 dB, even with my gain on the sub turned all the way up.

I do have some audible pops when changing inputs with the gain up that high. Normally I run my gain a about 1/3 of max, there I dont observe anything.

I cant do the second test, as I dont own the required measuring devices.
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NAD C658 >
> Hypex UCD400HG/HxR > Dali Mentor 6
> BK XXLS400 FF

Last edited by KarVi; 01-17-2020 at 02:52 PM.
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post #1327 of 1566 Old 01-17-2020, 11:19 AM
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Hans Review of the C658

While, I have no respect whatsoever for people like Hans, who thinks that power cables sold for 5000$ make any audible difference, I appreciate his quite positive and informative review of the C658. of course, he left out all the countless software bugs...


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post #1328 of 1566 Old 01-17-2020, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KarVi View Post
In the midst of all the troubleshooting going on, here is another, very positive review of the unit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c04EJODliww

Apart from a few factual errors about the DAC's in the unit, otherwise it seems the reviewer seems rather impressed with the features and the SQ.

I have done the scrathing noise test on my setup. I cant hear anything from -20 all the way up to 0 dB, even with my gain on the sub turned all the way up.

I do have some audible pops when changing inputs with the gain up that high. Normally I run my gain a about 1/3 of max, there I dont observe anything.

I cant do the second test, as I dont own the required measuring devices.

Thanks


Did you do the exact test I've described? I mean selecting Live 1 input w/o any RCA cable attached to it, and listening to the subwoofer outputs? You did not hear any noise?

This could be good news, as it means that not all C658 are made the same.

BTW, ar you happy with your UCD400HG based amplifier? I'm currently using Icepower 125ASX2 but considering switching to Hypex, either the UCD400HG or the NC400. The latter has received very good measurement results on ASR forum:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...-diy-amp.5907/

Did you build your own kit? Are you using it with XLR inputs?

Thanks
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post #1329 of 1566 Old 01-17-2020, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EB1000 View Post
Did you do the exact test I've described? I mean selecting Live 1 input w/o any RCA cable attached to it, and listening to the subwoofer outputs? You did not hear any noise?

This could be good news, as it means that not all C658 are made the same.

BTW, ar you happy with your UCD400HG based amplifier? I'm currently using Icepower 125ASX2 but considering switching to Hypex, either the UCD400HG or the NC400. The latter has received very good measurement results on ASR forum:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...-diy-amp.5907/

Did you build your own kit? Are you using it with XLR inputs?

Thanks
I followed the instructions to the letter. Easy to do, as I dont have anything connected to line 1 normally. So I could do it without doing anything else than adjusting my Subwoofer (carefully noticing its original setting).

I could not hear anything. But switching to Phono (or an unused digital input) produced clearly audible pops from my subwoofer.

I cant say for sure if this is good news or where we are. I think there are some challenges with the sub outs, but perhaps it only shows up with certain combinations of gear. Input impedance of the sub amp perhaps?

I have been very happy with the Hypex'es. I was sort of an early adopter, so I have had them for 7+ years (or so). The NCore series is superior to them in SQ, as it should be as a more modern Class D construction.

And yes, I built them myself. The first years I ran them with a normal RCA connector, but when I purchased the C658 I rebuilt them to use XLR.

All these years they have been rock solid reliable, except from when I installed the HxR regulators, and the one unit died. Hypex repaired it free of charge though. Only cost me the shipping to Hypex.

I was also considering upgrading to NC400's, but now I have decided to go with the new Purifi modules measured here:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...mplifier.7984/

I will build them in the start of february if all goes well. It will be sort of a birthday present to myself
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NAD C658 >
> Hypex UCD400HG/HxR > Dali Mentor 6
> BK XXLS400 FF

Last edited by KarVi; 01-17-2020 at 12:00 PM.
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post #1330 of 1566 Old 01-17-2020, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by KarVi View Post
I followed the instructions to the letter. Easy to do, as I dont have anything connected to line 1 normally. So I could do it without doing anything else than adjusting my Subwoofer (carefully noticing its original setting).

I could not hear anything. But switching to Phono (or an unused digital input) produced clearly audible pops from my subwoofer.

I cant say for sure if this is good news or where we are. I think there are some challenges with the sub outs, but perhaps it only shows up with certain combinations of gear. Input impedance of the sub amp perhaps?

I have been very happy with the Hypex'es. I was sort of an early adopter, so I have had them for 7+ years (or so). The NCore series is superior to them in SQ, as it should be as a more modern Class D construction.

And yes, I built them myself. The first years I ran them with a normal RCA connector, but when I purchased the C658 I rebuilt them to use XLR.

All these years they have been rock solid reliable, except from when I installed the HxR regulators, and the one unit died. Hypex repaired it free of charge though. Only cost me the shipping to Hypex.

I was also considering upgrading to NC400's, but now I have decided to go with the new Purifi modules measured here:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...mplifier.7984/

I will build them in the start of february if all goes well. It will be sort of a birthday present to myself

Thanks. I also considered the purifi, but as I understand they only have stereo adapter input boards, and I'm looking for a dual mono design. purifi support suggested that I will get two adapter boards, and use only one channel on each board, but that will be a way too expensive.

As I understand, both the NC400 and the purifi were designed by the same person.
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post #1331 of 1566 Old 01-17-2020, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EB1000 View Post
Thanks. I also considered the purifi, but as I understand they only have stereo adapter input boards, and I'm looking for a dual mono design. purifi support suggested that I will get two adapter boards, and use only one channel on each board, but that will be a way too expensive.

As I understand, both the NC400 and the purifi were designed by the same person.
As I live in Denmark, and Purifi is a Danish company I decided I would try to support them.

I got the same deal, and they offered me the extra adaptor board at a reasonable price, so I'll probably go with that.
Or parhaps only build a stereo amp. I havent fully decided yet.
Perhaps start with the stereo amp, and see if I get the urge to upgrade later (which I probably will)

Yes, the Purifi amps are designed by Bruno Putzeys, which I consider one of the leading (if not _the_ leading) authorities in Class D amplification. The 1ET400A (Eigentakt) is his refinement of NCore, with his latest ideas built into the design.

I actually once "knew" one of the founders of Purifi (met him a few times, where we discussed Hi-fi), we went to the same school (although some years apart). And I have had some email correspondance years ago with Bruno Putzeys, when I was building the UCD's. He was extremely friendly, helpfull, and gave me some good advice, that saved me some money.
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NAD C658 >
> Hypex UCD400HG/HxR > Dali Mentor 6
> BK XXLS400 FF

Last edited by KarVi; 01-17-2020 at 12:45 PM.
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post #1332 of 1566 Old 01-17-2020, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by KarVi View Post
As I live in Denmark, and Purifi is a Danish company I decided I would try to support them.
.

Do you know if the NC400 or the purifu is based on GaN transistors, because the modules do not use any heatsinks. I could not identify the actual location of the power transistors on the NC400. Getting 400W of switching power at near 500kHz switching f4equency is possible only with the newer GaN technology:

https://gansystems.com/gan-transistors/gs61008p/

The above surface mount device can switch up to 90A of current at near 1MHz w/o using any heatsink.
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post #1333 of 1566 Old 01-17-2020, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EB1000 View Post
Do you know if the NC400 or the purifu is based on GaN transistors, because the modules do not use any heatsinks. I could not identify the actual location of the power transistors on the NC400. Getting 400W of switching power at near 500kHz switching f4equency is possible only with the newer GaN technology:

https://gansystems.com/gan-transistors/gs61008p/

The above surface mount device can switch up to 90A of current at near 1MHz w/o using any heatsink.
I don't know anything about which transistors are used in the modules. I have never seen it specified anywhere.

Both modules have an aluminium plate beneath the circuit board, which is supposed to be thermally coupled to the bottom of the case (preferedly aluminium), or a heatsink.
The transistors are mounted upon / pressed against that aluminium plate, and that is the way they dissipate their heat. I would guess they are SMD transistors.

One has to consider that with given efficiencies of 93 - 95 % of these modules, theres not that much heat being produced, even at hundreds of watts output. And music seldomly peaks very much of the time, so even at full blast there would not be more than perhaps 20W power dissipation on average.

My UCD's, are 92% effective, and even dissipate extra power because of some onboard regulation, that is not present in NC400 (with the right PSU) or the Purifi, and they have worked with a piece of aluminium of approx. 85*210 mm, 3 mm thick, each. They have never given me problems, or shut down due to overheating. The heatsinks do get rather warm though.

NAD C658 >
> Hypex UCD400HG/HxR > Dali Mentor 6
> BK XXLS400 FF

Last edited by KarVi; 01-17-2020 at 02:30 PM.
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post #1334 of 1566 Old 01-18-2020, 11:16 AM
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reply from NAD support regarding subwoofer issue

This is the latest reply:
-------------------------------------
Thank you for contacting the NAD Electronics Support Crew!

We are aware of these AVS forum posts regarding our C 658 and our Engineering team is looking into this behavior to see if we can provide a fix via firmware.

Unfortunately us here in technical support are not provided a timeline on future development and releases so I can not say for certain when this update will become available. However rest assured that our engineering team will be doing everything they can to resolve this issue as soon as possible.

Our engineering team may reach out to you directly if they require any further specifics about this issue you are experiencing.

I'm sorry I do not have a more immediate solution for you but in the meantime if you have any further questions for me, please feel free to let me know.

Regards,
Jade L.
NAD Support Crew Analyst

---------------------------

So it could be a software issue, but it still not confirmed. I really doubt it's a software issue since it only effects a limited number of units (3, so far).
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post #1335 of 1566 Old 01-18-2020, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EB1000 View Post

Scratching noises from subwoofer outputs:



1. Enable subwoofer output from setup.

2. Set the crossover to any desired value

3. Select Line 1, but DO NOT connect an RCA cable to Line 1

I cannot test this using my unit as my entire system is packed away in boxes as I remodel my listening room. But is this “issue” really an issue? Why would you ever select an unused output? Can’t you just delete Line 1 output option in software so you don’t ever unintentionally select it? AFAIK the preamp is not meant to feed ONLY a subwoofer. You cannot independently control outputs on this unit in order to turn Line outputs off while leaving SUB1 on. MiniDSP Dirac units do seems to have this additional flexibility that the NAD does not have.

It’s never wise to hot swap cables nor play music through outputs not connected to amps/ speakers no matter the technology. Back in the days of tube amps, a sure fire way to destroy your amp was to turn it on when output was not connected to speakers. By sticking with these rules you’ll follow best practices that may help you avoid unnecessary pain and suffering.
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post #1336 of 1566 Old 01-18-2020, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by freedomgli View Post
I cannot test this using my unit as my entire system is packed away in boxes as I remodel my listening room. But is this “issue” really an issue? Why would you ever select an unused output? Can’t you just delete Line 1 output option in software so you don’t ever unintentionally select it? AFAIK the preamp is not meant to feed ONLY a subwoofer. You cannot independently control outputs on this unit in order to turn Line outputs off while leaving SUB1 on. MiniDSP Dirac units do seems to have this additional flexibility that the NAD does not have.

It’s never wise to hot swap cables nor play music through outputs not connected to amps/ speakers no matter the technology. Back in the days of tube amps, a sure fire way to destroy your amp was to turn it on when output was not connected to speakers. By sticking with these rules you’ll follow best practices that may help you avoid unnecessary pain and suffering.

I'm using Line 1 to feed my Denon AVR's pre outs. As I explained, when Line 1 is in use, then the constant scratching noise is gone, but the random popping noise from the subwoofer appears instead... Then there is the second issue. The line output voltage from the subwoofer out is 0.25% of the voltage output from the speakers' pre-out. The low subwoofer output level plus the popping noises make hit unit unusable for me
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post #1337 of 1566 Old 01-18-2020, 05:51 PM
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I hooked up my C658 today... had to pull my whole system apart so it was several hours of work. I haven't run DIRAC yet, but here are my observations so far. I'm running 2x Schiit Aegir in monoblock configuration that I purchased at the same time. My goal was to improve my 2 channel listening; my Denon AVR-X4400H is fine for TV and movies but I wanted more from music.

- Setting up BluOS and adding my Tidal account and my NAS music drive was easy and straightforward. The interface feels less intuitive than Sonos but I'll get used to it I'm sure.
- I can't tell if I'm hearing the NAD, the Schiit, or a combination of both, but the imaging and soundstage of my LS50s is vastly improved. I've been using the same tracks to evaluate audio systems for 30 years, so I'm very familiar with how they normally sound.
- There may be some of the brightness that people have mentioned, but I need to listen more to be sure. I'm certainly hearing more detail than before.
- My main nitpick is that Analog Bypass and Dirac on/off are global settings, as opposed to assigned by input. This is really annoying because it means I have to select those things when I switch from TV/movie watching to audio only. My Denon and my previous Anthem gear allow room correction to be set for each input.

If there were a shortcut on the remote, or something to program into my Harmony remote, it would be less annoying, but so far I haven't found such a control setting.

I'll provide more comments once I've lived with it some more. My SVS SB-3000 arrived damaged, so I have to wait a few days for a replacement... probably won't run Dirac until next weekend.
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post #1338 of 1566 Old 01-20-2020, 04:55 AM
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Regarding the C658 Dac.
Iv'e attached 2 Cyrus MONO X Monoblocks via AUDIO PRE-OUT (BALANCED) connections.
Now I need to Turn ON and Off 3 devices : The c658 + two Monoblocks.
Is it possible to Turn all devices only via the C658 ? like adding such a Trigger Device OR a Trigger option is already included inside the C658 ?
Thanks

Last edited by ronenza; 01-20-2020 at 05:01 AM.
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Originally Posted by ronenza View Post
Regarding the C658 Dac.
Iv'e attached 2 Cyrus MONO X Monoblocks via AUDIO PRE-OUT (BALANCED) connections.
Now I need to Turn ON and Off 3 devices : The c658 + two Monoblocks.
Is it possible to Turn all devices only via the C658 ? like adding such a Trigger Device OR a Trigger option is already included inside the C658 ?
Thanks
There is a 12V trigger out, that will turn amps on and off, together with the C658, if they have a 12V trigger input.

I personally use a power strip with a 12V trigger input, to switch my Power amps on and off.
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NAD C658 >
> Hypex UCD400HG/HxR > Dali Mentor 6
> BK XXLS400 FF
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Thank You.
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Regarding Dirac Live :
How to place the Microphone when wanting to make microphone calibration ?
Do the Microphone has to be horizontal or vertical ? Face forward to the speakers ? To the ceiling ?
Thanks
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post #1342 of 1566 Old 01-20-2020, 05:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronenza View Post
Regarding Dirac Live :

How to place the Microphone when wanting to make microphone calibration ?

Do the Microphone has to be horizontal or vertical ? Face forward to the speakers ? To the ceiling ?

Thanks


Everybody will have a different opinion on this, and are technically is no right or wrong choice. But most people would advise pointing the included omnidirectional microphone towards the ceiling.
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post #1343 of 1566 Old 01-20-2020, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronenza View Post
Regarding Dirac Live :
How to place the Microphone when wanting to make microphone calibration ?
Do the Microphone has to be horizontal or vertical ? Face forward to the speakers ? To the ceiling ?
Thanks

The included NAD mic should only face the ceiling. If you have the minidsp UMIk-1, then you can try both options, just make sure to load the correct calibration file first...
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The included NAD mic should only face the ceiling. If you have the minidsp UMIk-1, then you can try both options, just make sure to load the correct calibration file first...
Thank you.
Don't know about the "correct calibration file" ...
I only connected the included NAD mic and made calibration via my iOS App ...
After that, The Dirac Live iOS App sent the file to the C658 ...
No computer used.

Am I missing something ?
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post #1345 of 1566 Old 01-20-2020, 10:55 PM
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New question please :
If I want to add external HD to the C658 via the USB port , What format sort of songs I need to use ?
Thanks
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post #1346 of 1566 Old 01-20-2020, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by ronenza View Post
Thank you.

Don't know about the "correct calibration file" ...

I only connected the included NAD mic and made calibration via my iOS App ...

After that, The Dirac Live iOS App sent the file to the C658 ...

No computer used.



Am I missing something ?
Mic calibration file is only relevant when using third party microphone. It is not recommended to run Dirac live using ios or Android apps. Better use Windows pc which gives more flexibility and control...

Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk
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post #1347 of 1566 Old 01-20-2020, 11:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EB1000 View Post
Mic calibration file is only relevant when using third party microphone. It is not recommended to run Dirac live using ios or Android apps. Better use Windows pc which gives more flexibility and control...

Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk
Thank you !
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post #1348 of 1566 Old 01-20-2020, 11:00 PM
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New question please :

If I want to add external HD to the C658 via the USB port , What format sort of songs I need to use ?

Thanks
NTFS hdd. Music files in FLAC format are recommended.

Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk
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post #1349 of 1566 Old 01-20-2020, 11:01 PM
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NTFS hdd. Music files in FLAC format are recommended.

Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk
Thank you.
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post #1350 of 1566 Old 01-21-2020, 06:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EB1000 View Post
Mic calibration file is only relevant when using third party microphone. It is not recommended to run Dirac live using ios or Android apps. Better use Windows pc which gives more flexibility and control...

Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk
Actually, NAD's instructions on their website include mic correction files for the NAD supplied mic; there are two separate files depending on which dongle your gear came with. The adjustments in the treble are actually quite significant.
Instructions are here: https://support.nadelectronics.com/h...34-Dirac-Setup
and the correction files are here: https://nadelectronics.com/dirac-live/
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