Monoprice HTP-1 announced. (16ch, 9.1.6 Atmos Surround Sound Processor) - Page 45 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 1570Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1321 of 1672 Old 11-19-2019, 12:59 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
sdurani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Monterey Park, CA
Posts: 28,205
Mentioned: 220 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7383 Post(s)
Liked: 6461
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigguyca View Post
Some sort of multi-subwoofer optimization program with a separate output channel for each subwoofer when the system is in use, was not promised, but certainly is doable especially since the data is already on a PC. It is disappointing that this capability, which has been demonstrated by others, evidently won't be included.
What other products have demonstrated a subwoofer optimization program?

Sanjay
sdurani is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #1322 of 1672 Old 11-19-2019, 01:20 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
bigguyca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: East Turkestan
Posts: 1,876
Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1194 Post(s)
Liked: 997
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
What other products have demonstrated a subwoofer optimization program?

Keep in mind the word is demonstrated.

Here is a link to a functioning program written by an individual. It would seem that if an individual, likely a very smart individual, can develop this software then it is a doable task.

https://www.andyc.diy-audio-engineer...tml/index.html

The link above has lots of information. It discusses using a miniDSP to implement the optimizations in a multi-channel setup. It also discusses previous work on which the software is based.

Floyd Toole discusses this subject in his books. He discusses that his (current or past) listening room was optimized by let's say the A-Team, using such techniques. It isn't clear to me if Harman has used or uses multiple subwoofer optimization is some of its products.
giomania and prot7 like this.
bigguyca is offline  
post #1323 of 1672 Old 11-19-2019, 01:37 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
sdurani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Monterey Park, CA
Posts: 28,205
Mentioned: 220 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7383 Post(s)
Liked: 6461
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigguyca View Post
It would seem that if an individual, likely a very smart individual, can develop this software then it is a doable task.
If it's a doable task, what other products come with a subwoofer optimization program?

Sanjay
sdurani is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #1324 of 1672 Old 11-19-2019, 01:58 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Marc Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Inland Empire, CA
Posts: 13,751
Mentioned: 254 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5665 Post(s)
Liked: 5233
I have a feeling that many of these comments are coming from folks with little to no prior experience with Dirac. Dirac Live has always been licensed based.

Dirac Live Full is a paid license upgrade on most platforms. The basic LE version is what ships on most platforms. Only the top tiers of processors include DL Full: StormAudio, NAD Masters, and now JBL Synthesis & Monoprice.

https://emotiva.com/products/dirac-l...ll-for-emotiva

https://www.dirac.com/media-coverage...irac-live-full

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
But to withhold basic functionality thats already there is not endearing.
It's not basic functionality. Dirac's premium Bass Management brings Dirac closer to par with Arcos, RoomPerfect, and Trinnov Optimizer [edit: by optimizing the sub-speakers phase alignment via all-pass filters].

Manufacturers can choose to include premium Bass Management tiers in their base Dirac offering.
Quote:
Its the same reason Tesla decided to make ludicrous mode free.
AFAIK, Ludicrous mode is still a $20,000(!) option. The free upgrade is for existing Model S and X owners trading up to a new Model S or X. Did you get it free as a new buyer? Let me know how so I can take advantage too!

Spoiler!

Last edited by Marc Alexander; 11-19-2019 at 04:51 PM.
Marc Alexander is offline  
post #1325 of 1672 Old 11-19-2019, 02:16 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Marc Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Inland Empire, CA
Posts: 13,751
Mentioned: 254 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5665 Post(s)
Liked: 5233
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigguyca View Post

So far there have been two schedule fails. Not good.



The specifics of the bass management to be ultimately offered by Monoprice in the HTP-1 are not clear, and a firm or even squishy schedule doesn't exist. Note that this is a Monoprice problem. Monoprice is selling the product, Monoprice made the decisions as to which hardware and software would included with the unit. Monoprice is responsible for managing its vendors. If addon software is required in the future at added cost, that is due to a Monoprice agreement with one of its vendors.



Some sort of multi-subwoofer optimization program with a separate output channel for each subwoofer when the system is in use, was not promised, but certainly is doable especially since the data is already on a PC. It is disappointing that this capability, which has been demonstrated by others, evidently won't be included.
WTH are you talking about? I've never known your posts to be so rife with ignorance. You are usually the one telling someone else to go read up. SMH

Wild guess: you are coming from and used to the Audyssey/YPAO/MCCAC/AccuEQ based products aren't you. For those that are, we need to all get up to speed on Dirac's licensing model so we can have intelligent discussions.

This story makes less sense each time I try to read it. Does anyone else get the point he's trying to make? I need someone to explain to me.
Marc Alexander is offline  
post #1326 of 1672 Old 11-19-2019, 02:30 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Marc Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Inland Empire, CA
Posts: 13,751
Mentioned: 254 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5665 Post(s)
Liked: 5233
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post
Is lack of OSD more common with some of these higher end units? Does that also include lack of volume display when changing values? Probably the only small nit picking I would have.
Yes. Trinnov, Datasat, Theta,

The Arcam variants will feature OSD overlay. I believe Emotiva as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krobar View Post
Some units can still display the volume on the display using CEC despite no OSD.
Here is what shows on my Sony LCD via HDMI CEC (only when volume is adjusted by the TV).



My LG C8 only displays volume + or - on screen, no numerical value.
Marc Alexander is offline  
post #1327 of 1672 Old 11-19-2019, 02:34 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Marc Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Inland Empire, CA
Posts: 13,751
Mentioned: 254 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5665 Post(s)
Liked: 5233
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigguyca View Post
Keep in mind the word is demonstrated.

Here is a link to a functioning program written by an individual. It would seem that if an individual, likely a very smart individual, can develop this software then it is a doable task.

https://www.andyc.diy-audio-engineer...tml/index.html

The link above has lots of information. It discusses using a miniDSP to implement the optimizations in a multi-channel setup. It also discusses previous work on which the software is based.

Floyd Toole discusses this subject in his books. He discusses that his (current or past) listening room was optimized by let's say the A-Team, using such techniques. It isn't clear to me if Harman has used or uses multiple subwoofer optimization is some of its products.
Multi-sub optimizer can be utilized with the HTP-1 for up to 3 subs currently. I believe up to 5 still be supported ultimately (limiting users to 11 speaker channels). I prefer to utilize an external DSP and utilize the 15 channels for speakers.

Have you used MSO? How long do its calculations take on your PC?
RichB likes this.
Marc Alexander is offline  
post #1328 of 1672 Old 11-19-2019, 02:38 PM
Oppo Beta Group
 
RichB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 11,244
Mentioned: 35 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2022 Post(s)
Liked: 1455
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
Multi-sub optimizer can be utilized with the HTP-1 for up to 3 subs currently. I believe up to 5 still be supported ultimately (limiting users to 11 speaker channels). I prefer to utilize an external DSP and utilize the 15 channels for speakers.

Have you used MSO? How long do its calculations take on your PC?
Is the multi-sub optimizer you are referencing the $400 add-on license that has been discussed?

- Rich

Oppo UPD-205 x 2 | UPD-203 | Sonica DAC | Emotiva XMC-1 (v3) | Revel Salon2s, Voice2, Studio2s | Benchmark AHB2 x 4 | ATI AT522NC | Velodyne HGS-15 | LG 77C9 | Lumagen 2020 | HDFury Vertex x 2
RichB is offline  
post #1329 of 1672 Old 11-19-2019, 02:40 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Marc Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Inland Empire, CA
Posts: 13,751
Mentioned: 254 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5665 Post(s)
Liked: 5233
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post
Is the multi-sub optimizer you are referencing the $400 add-on license that has been discussed?



- Rich
No

https://www.andyc.diy-audio-engineer...tml/index.html
Marc Alexander is offline  
post #1330 of 1672 Old 11-19-2019, 02:50 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
sdurani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Monterey Park, CA
Posts: 28,205
Mentioned: 220 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7383 Post(s)
Liked: 6461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
Dirac's premium Bass Management brings Dirac closer to par with Arcos, RoomPerfect, and Trinnov Optimizer.
Don't know if RoomPerfect has any multi-sub optimization program built into their room correction the way ARCOS does. Haven't kept up with Trinnov but last I heard they were/are waiting for a possible port of Harman's SFM to use for subwoofer optimization.

So Dirac's premium Bass Management isn't going to bring it closer to par with the better room correction systems, it is going to offer a feature (automated multi-sub optimization) that most of them don't currently have.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
I need someone to explain to me.
Disappointment that the HTP-1 doesn't include a feature that no other processor has.
DS-21 likes this.

Sanjay
sdurani is offline  
post #1331 of 1672 Old 11-19-2019, 03:00 PM
Member
 
TAGmanz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 24
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Liked: 8
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
What the HTP-1 should be able to do in the meantime (prior to Bass Management Module) is allow for an iterative process with Dirac (or simply utilize RoomEQ Wizard w/Acoustic Reference). The first run of Dirac will produce values for time-alignment and level matching for each sub. The user will then manually enter these values and then run Dirac again presenting Dirac a single, combined subwoofer channel. This eliminates the need for an external subwoofer DSP if you have unused channels. However, I tried to test this today and have identified a minor bug within the HTP-1 HTTP setup.

Will what I described be beneficial for anyone reading this thread or will most be using an external DSP for multi-subwoofers?
So if I understand you correctly what you are saying is that without needing to use the Dirac BM module the HTP-1 will be able to (with the exception of the minor bugs that exist at present) handle multiple subs in a similar manner to an out board minidsp?

The procedure to get this to work would be

1) Connect subs to independent channels. Run Dirac to measure and generate parameters to correct each sub channel independently.

2) Take these parameters and key them into a setup menu somewhere within the HTP-1. The HTP-1 will then apply these corrections to each channel individually and then bridge the channels internally to create a single channel.

3) Run Dirac again this time presenting it with the single bridged channel for it to correct.
DreamWarrior likes this.
TAGmanz is offline  
post #1332 of 1672 Old 11-19-2019, 03:10 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Marc Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Inland Empire, CA
Posts: 13,751
Mentioned: 254 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5665 Post(s)
Liked: 5233
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Don't know if RoomPerfect has any multi-sub optimization program built into their room correction the way ARCOS does. Haven't kept up with Trinnov but last I heard they were/are waiting for a possible port of Harman's SFM to use for subwoofer optimization.



So Dirac's premium Bass Management isn't going to bring it closer to par with the better room correction systems, it is going to offer a feature (automated multi-sub optimization) that most of them don't currently have.
True.

I wasn't quite clear. What I am referring to is the sub-speakers phase alignment (utilizing all-pass filters).
Marc Alexander is offline  
post #1333 of 1672 Old 11-19-2019, 03:12 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Marc Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Inland Empire, CA
Posts: 13,751
Mentioned: 254 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5665 Post(s)
Liked: 5233
Quote:
Originally Posted by TAGmanz View Post
So if I understand you correctly what you are saying is that without needing to use the Dirac BM module the HTP-1 will be able to (with the exception of the minor bugs that exist at present) handle multiple subs in a similar manner to an out board minidsp?

The procedure to get this to work would be

1) Connect subs to independent channels. Run Dirac to measure and generate parameters to correct each sub channel independently.

2) Take these parameters and key them into a setup menu somewhere within the HTP-1. The HTP-1 will then apply these corrections to each channel individually and then bridge the channels internally to create a single channel.

3) Run Dirac again this time presenting it with the single bridged channel for it to correct.
Yes!

Last edited by Marc Alexander; 11-19-2019 at 07:32 PM.
Marc Alexander is offline  
post #1334 of 1672 Old 11-19-2019, 03:18 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
sdurani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Monterey Park, CA
Posts: 28,205
Mentioned: 220 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7383 Post(s)
Liked: 6461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
What I am referring to is the sub-speakers phase alignment (utilizing all-pass filters).
I thought the discussion was about subwoofer optimization. Does RoomPerfect have an automated sub-speaker blending program built into its room correction? Never saw any Trinnov user mention it. AFAIK, only ARCOS has it. In any case, that will be another Dirac feature that almost no one else has.

Sanjay
sdurani is offline  
post #1335 of 1672 Old 11-19-2019, 03:42 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Marc Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Inland Empire, CA
Posts: 13,751
Mentioned: 254 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5665 Post(s)
Liked: 5233
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
I thought the discussion was about subwoofer optimization.
I wasn't quite clear, I've edited that previous post for clarity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Does RoomPerfect have an automated sub-speaker blending program built into its room correction?
Lyngdorf does not perform multi-sub to my satisfaction.
Spoiler!

Last edited by Marc Alexander; 11-19-2019 at 04:01 PM.
Marc Alexander is offline  
post #1336 of 1672 Old 11-19-2019, 03:57 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
sdurani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Monterey Park, CA
Posts: 28,205
Mentioned: 220 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7383 Post(s)
Liked: 6461
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Does RoomPerfect have an automated sub-speaker blending program built into its room correction?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
Lyngdorf does not perform multi-sub to my satisfaction.
I thought the discussion had switched to sub-speaker phase alignment. Dude, you gaslighting me?

Sanjay
sdurani is offline  
post #1337 of 1672 Old 11-19-2019, 04:03 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
noah katz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Mountain View, CA USA
Posts: 23,129
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2173 Post(s)
Liked: 796
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Don't know if RoomPerfect has any multi-sub optimization program built into their room correction the way ARCOS does. Haven't kept up with Trinnov but last I heard they were/are waiting for a possible port of Harman's SFM to use for subwoofer optimization.

Lyngdorf's not saying AFAIK, but a common remark from RP users is how good the sub/mains blending is.

Noah
noah katz is offline  
post #1338 of 1672 Old 11-19-2019, 04:04 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Marc Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Inland Empire, CA
Posts: 13,751
Mentioned: 254 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5665 Post(s)
Liked: 5233
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
I thought the discussion had switched to sub-speaker phase alignment. Dude, you gaslighting me?
Maybe @bigguyca 's story intercoursed with my mind.
Marc Alexander is offline  
post #1339 of 1672 Old 11-19-2019, 04:38 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Marc Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Inland Empire, CA
Posts: 13,751
Mentioned: 254 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5665 Post(s)
Liked: 5233
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
Lyngdorf's not saying AFAIK, but a common remark from RP users is how good the sub/mains blending is.
This same blending is what is coming [in 2020 folks ] with Dirac's Bass Management Module tiers 1 & 2.

The Sub Distance Tweak can align a single speaker to sub. You can even achieve good (but not perfect) results with the entire front stage (L/C/R). However, more than likely most if not all the other speakers will not be aligned. This update to Dirac (DL BMM Tier 3) eliminates the need to perform the SDT and aligns all sub-speaker transitions.

Of note is that the DL BMM must be supported in the SSP and not by addong an external DSP to an SSP without DL BMM implemented. However, it is possible to use an external DSP (like miniDSP 2x4) to perform the multi-sub time alignment and utilize DL BMM Tier 2

I expect that this is how most users will utilize DL BMM. I also expect some to include DL BMM Tier 2 license "free" bundled in the base SSP (I'll bet Dirac would prefer this). Free is relative, a marketing tactic that works quite well. I.E. https://www.svsound.com/pages/bill-of-rights

Monoprice is including the $99 license "free". After all they have put owners through, Emotiva had better include the $99 license. (Owners deserve the full $399 license if you ask me).

Spoiler!


I would place JBL Synthesis, AudioControl, StormAudio, Bryston, ATI, Datasat, and Theta are among those who could potentially include DL BMM Tier 2 in the future.

Spoiler!
Mahuzz13 likes this.

Last edited by Marc Alexander; 11-19-2019 at 04:45 PM.
Marc Alexander is offline  
post #1340 of 1672 Old 11-19-2019, 04:53 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
sdurani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Monterey Park, CA
Posts: 28,205
Mentioned: 220 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7383 Post(s)
Liked: 6461
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
Lyngdorf's not saying AFAIK, but a common remark from RP users is how good the sub/mains blending is.
That could result from just doing a good job of conforming subs & speakers to the same target curve. Matching the levels across the crossover region can go a long way towards having a good sounding sub-speaker blend, even without optimizing the phase.

The more descriptions I read, the more apparent it becomes that a room correction system that actively blends subs & speakers AND does automated multi-sub optimization is rare to non-existent in consumer products. Andy's MSO does that but it's not in an automated commercially available product.

I keep harping on 'automated' because the best room correction in the world won't be of much help if a consumer has trouble using it. This is where DiracLive Bass Management has an opportunity to make a big difference, especially if it doesn't require the user to do anything more than they're currently doing during a Dirac calibration.
gsr, Marc Alexander, DS-21 and 4 others like this.

Sanjay
sdurani is offline  
post #1341 of 1672 Old 11-19-2019, 04:55 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Molon_Labe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,308
Mentioned: 109 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3481 Post(s)
Liked: 4202
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
I keep harping on 'automated' because the best room correction in the world won't be of much help if a consumer has trouble using it. This is where DiracLive Bass Management has an opportunity to make a big difference, especially if it doesn't require the user to do anything more than they're currently doing during a Dirac calibration.
This ^^^^
Molon_Labe is offline  
post #1342 of 1672 Old 11-19-2019, 05:00 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Marc Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Inland Empire, CA
Posts: 13,751
Mentioned: 254 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5665 Post(s)
Liked: 5233
Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
So I would *not* consider this IP control. This is just configuration via web browser. IP control is where you can send IP commands to control specifics in the projector and is used in automation systems. It does not require a user to work with an on-screen display or a keyboard/mouse.

I'm sure this device will have IP control. I've never seen a recent AVR or processor that didnt.





I'm expecting this to be in the manual that I'm waiting to be released.
I suspect there will be a separate PDF. A Control4 driver is in the works.

I taught my Harmony the IR commands. I expect the HTP-1 to be part of the Harmony database prior to shipping.

The biggest question I have about HTP-1 is the support structure. @MonolithGuy can you share the details of the support structure?
Marc Alexander is offline  
post #1343 of 1672 Old 11-19-2019, 05:03 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Marc Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Inland Empire, CA
Posts: 13,751
Mentioned: 254 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5665 Post(s)
Liked: 5233
Quote:
Originally Posted by andersmik View Post
You can say alot of bad things about Emotiva but regarding their upgrading promises I don't think you can. They offered you to buy to trade the XMC-1 to XMC-2 for the same price the atmos upgrade had cost because it wasn't possible to install it in the XMC-1. I don't care if the manufacturer upgrades the old or let me buy the new product for the same price, the latter is actually preferred because I get an new warranty.
It was indeed possible for Emotiva to support Atmos in the XMC-1. They once told me that a preliminary XMC-1 Atmos (12ch) solution was partially operational in their lab (2018?). http://emotivalounge.proboards.com/t...ipation-thread

Prior to the trade-up announcement a few months ago, Emotiva had always advertised the XMC-1 as future-proof due to it's modularity. They advertised the HDMI 2.0 & Atmos updates on the XMC-1 as far back as 2016 (which were factors in consumer purchasing decisions).

While I do agree that focusing development on the RMC-1/XMC-2 is a better allocation of resources. I am not a fan of abandoning all Dirac Live development on the XMC-1 (refurbs are $999 for the remainder of 2019).

The HDMI 2.0 board is Emotiva's only modular update that has [eventually] made it to market. NAD has a similar modular platform for both their T-series AVRs and M-series AVPs. While neither will ever be as quick to market as the large Japanese manufacturers. NAD has eventually delivered what Emotiva has failed to. My NAD M15HD (circa 2009) shipped with HDMI 1.3. I upgraded first to 1.4 (M15HD2 equivalent). It has had HDMI 2.0b,12ch Atmos/Dts:X and Dirac Live 2.x for over a year now (M17v2 equivalent).

I agree that the XMC-1 trade-ups are a very nice offers. There is a flaw however. It practically forces XMC-1 owners to trade up since Dirac Live 2.x will not be supported by the XMC-1 (the original hardware/DSP chipset can support it). Not only that but the XMC-2 doesn't offer Dirac in any form at the moment, not even in beta (AFAIK). Does anyone know of an ETA?

I have purchased from Emotiva and their customer support is exceptional. However, I find their processors have never lived up to promises. I find the disconnect between their announcements (press releases and executive interviews, statements & forum posts) and reality to border on unethical. I am genuinely rooting for Emotiva success. But I have trouble giving their announcements credibility.

I am sorry for the harsh criticism but I believe it to be justified and not solely opinion.
Marc Alexander is offline  
post #1344 of 1672 Old 11-19-2019, 05:24 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
noah katz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Mountain View, CA USA
Posts: 23,129
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2173 Post(s)
Liked: 796
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
This same blending is what is coming [in 2020 folks ] with Dirac's Bass Management Module tiers 1 & 2.
Have you learned something about how RP works, or just on the desired results?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
The Sub Distance Tweak can align a single speaker to sub. You can even achieve good (but not perfect) results with the entire front stage (L/C/R). However, more than likely most if not all the other speakers will not be aligned.
Good point, because of the likely big difference in distances.

That makes it seem like a good idea to XO surrounds higher, so that more of the bass is sent to L/CR.

Noah
noah katz is offline  
post #1345 of 1672 Old 11-19-2019, 05:54 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
markmon1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,531
Mentioned: 118 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5488 Post(s)
Liked: 3579
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioworker View Post
Well, the protocol is HTTP so unless they took extraordinary steps, it's pretty much self documented
This is completely untrue. Have you ever worked with IP control before? Presenting HTTP pages for the user to click around via a web browser is completely unrelated to IP control. One doesn't build upon the other and one doesn't indicate that the other will even exist let alone how to use the other. The web browser interface is basically just like using the internal menus. But its more flexible for the firmware designer because he will not need to assume all functions can be toggled with a simple remote control. When you add the ability to access the configuration with a full keyboard and mouse via a web front end, you make the job on the engineers far easier.

IP control is about accessing each specific function within the device with single IP commands. It's a completely separate thing and generally has nothing to do with device configuration but instead about changing device state. For example, you might turn the device on and off via IP control. You would not expect to turn the device on / off via the web browser. You might be able to create an input and rename it via the web interface. You would not be able able to do the same via IP control, but you may be able to select the input with IP control. They're separate things.
warwwolf7 and audioworker like this.

Video: JVC RS4500 135" screen in pure black room no light, htpc nvidia 1080ti.
Audio: Anthem mrx720 running 7.1.4, McIntosh MC-303, MC-152, B&W 802d3 LR, B&W HTM1D3 center, B&W 805d3 surround, B&W 702S2 rear, B&W 706s2 x 4 shelf mounted for atmos, 2 sub arrays both infinite baffle: 4x15 fi audio running on behringer ep4000 + 4x12 fi audio running on 2nd ep4000.
markmon1 is online now  
post #1346 of 1672 Old 11-19-2019, 06:05 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
markmon1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,531
Mentioned: 118 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5488 Post(s)
Liked: 3579
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
I suspect there will be a separate PDF. A Control4 driver is in the works.

I taught my Harmony the IR commands. I expect the HTP-1 to be part of the Harmony database prior to shipping.

The biggest question I have about HTP-1 is the support structure. @MonolithGuy can you share the details of the support structure?
Maybe you can help answer some questions since you seem to know about the unit

I assume we can have more than one subwoofer attached with separate levels and crossover points for each?
Is there also a double bass option where a speaker can run full range and also a subwoofer can run up to its crossover point for non-LFE channels?
I assume there's some sort of non-dirac EQ per speaker? Either EQ or PEQ or filters?

Is there a way to create virtual inputs? Like I have two separate inputs for PC. One is for movie one is for audio. The movie input takes HDMI 1 input and also HDMI 1 input for sound. The music input takes the same inputs. But it disables certain speakers, always uses 2 channel no dolby upscaling for 2 channel input, and it has different speaker levels and crossover points. Anthem, Lyngdorf, McIntosh, Trinnov support this.

If the above is not possible, then I wonder if the IP control is flexible enough to allow for toggling all these values on the fly.

Does the center channel provide a wide setting allowing to bleed some of the center sounds into the front left+right?

Do you know if its possible to say disable surrounds but still enable rear surrounds in speaker configuration? (Impossible in anthem, I can only set surrounds to -12db).

Video: JVC RS4500 135" screen in pure black room no light, htpc nvidia 1080ti.
Audio: Anthem mrx720 running 7.1.4, McIntosh MC-303, MC-152, B&W 802d3 LR, B&W HTM1D3 center, B&W 805d3 surround, B&W 702S2 rear, B&W 706s2 x 4 shelf mounted for atmos, 2 sub arrays both infinite baffle: 4x15 fi audio running on behringer ep4000 + 4x12 fi audio running on 2nd ep4000.
markmon1 is online now  
post #1347 of 1672 Old 11-19-2019, 08:26 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Marc Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Inland Empire, CA
Posts: 13,751
Mentioned: 254 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5665 Post(s)
Liked: 5233
Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
I assume we can have more than one subwoofer attached with separate levels and crossover points for each?
Crossover cut-off frequencies are set per speaker between 40-200 Hz (in 10Hz increments). The crossover filters are 4th order Linkwitz-Riley. I do not see any additional low-pass filter for the Subwoofers. I am going to request a subwoofer low-pass filter option be added. What would you like to see?
Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Is there also a double bass option where a speaker can run full range and also a subwoofer can run up to its crossover point for non-LFE channels?
Yes, this is labelled REINFORCE BASS. From the HTTP interface pop-up help, "bass enhancement button causes the subwoofer signal to be routed not only to the subwoofer but also to any large speakers."
Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
I assume there's some sort of non-dirac EQ per speaker? Either EQ or PEQ or filters?
There are 16 PEQ filters (applied post-Dirac) available per speaker.
Quote:
Is there a way to create virtual inputs? Like I have two separate inputs for PC. One is for movie one is for audio. The movie input takes HDMI 1 input and also HDMI 1 input for sound. The music input takes the same inputs. But it disables certain speakers, always uses 2 channel no dolby upscaling for 2 channel input, and it has different speaker levels and crossover points. Anthem, Lyngdorf, McIntosh, Trinnov support this.
Presets are on the roadmap. The how and what is under active discussion. My input to the developers is to mirror Trinnov's implementation. Presets(4) will be switchable on the fly via IR or IP. The buttons are already on the IR remote.

BTW, Lyngdorf/McIntosh don't really support this. Differing speaker layouts require separate configs be saved and recalled. Each separate config has to have its own iteration of RoomPerfect. Switching & applying configs takes 1-2 minutes. This was the main reason I removed the Lyngdorf MP-50 from my system. I made some requests of Lyngdorf and I was not encouraged by their response. I will be checking out the MP-60 soon.
Quote:
Does the center channel provide a wide setting allowing to bleed some of the center sounds into the front left+right?
The CENTER SPREAD option is only available for Dolby Surround upmixing.
Quote:
Do you know if its possible to say disable surrounds but still enable rear surrounds in speaker configuration? (Impossible in anthem, I can only set surrounds to -12db).
It is not possible (or necessary IMO). You must configure Surrounds before Rear Surrounds are even an option. Rear Surrounds must be enabled before Wides are an option.

What would the purpose of this be? In a 5.1 configuration it doesn't matter if the surrounds are on the side or rear of the listeners, they receive the same audio either way.
Marc Alexander is offline  
post #1348 of 1672 Old 11-19-2019, 08:49 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
markmon1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,531
Mentioned: 118 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5488 Post(s)
Liked: 3579
By the way, thanks for taking your time to respond to me at all

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
Crossover cut-off frequencies are set per speaker between 40-200 Hz (in 10Hz increments). The crossover filters are 4th order Linkwitz-Riley. I do not see any additional low-pass filter for the Subwoofers. I am going to request a subwoofer low-pass filter option be added. What would you like to see?
Well if you going to allow "reinforce bass" as an option, you probably need to be able to put an upper limit on the subwoofer outside the LFE so maybe something from 40 to 200 as a low pass for the sub channel.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
Yes, this is labelled REINFORCE BASS. From the HTTP interface pop-up help, "bass enhancement button causes the subwoofer signal to be routed not only to the subwoofer but also to any large speakers."
There are 16 PEQ filters (applied post-Dirac) available per speaker.
Ok this all sounds great! Edit: actually rereading what you wrote, this sounds backwards. It sounds like it takes subwoofer LFE and also reroutes that to regular speakers labelled "large". I want the opposite. I want the large speaker signal to additionally be routed to subs (with an option). If I enable a sub, enable front speakers to full range, then set my sub x-over at 100hz and enable "double bass", I expect sounds sent to a front speaker that are below 100hz to play both on that speaker and on the subwoofer. I don't want the LFE channel sounds to ever play on my front speakers, however. Is this actually possible?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
Presets are on the roadmap. The how and what is under active discussion. My input to the developers is to mirror Trinnov's implementation. Presets(4) will be switchable on the fly via IR or IP. The buttons are already on the IR remote.
Trinnov and Anthem both have pretty good implementations. I want to be able to select a physical video input, physical audio input, speaker levels, crossovers, perhaps EQ settings, room control on/off, and which speakers are enabled. Also the upscaling mode for what to do with 2 channel audio. (Stereo, all channel stereo, upscale dolby, upscale dts etc). If there's a way to one-button or one-ip-command select these things that meets my needs at least

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
BTW, Lyngdorf/McIntosh don't really support this. Differing speaker layouts require separate configs be saved and recalled. Each separate config has to have its own iteration of RoomPerfect. Switching & applying configs takes 1-2 minutes. This was the main reason I removed the Lyngdorf MP-50 from my system. I made some requests of Lyngdorf and I was not encouraged by their response. I will be checking out the MP-60 soon.
I didn't know any of this. I guess I can rule out Lyngdorf/McIntosh also then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
The CENTER SPREAD option is only available for Dolby Surround upmixing.
Awesome

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
It is not possible (or necessary IMO). You must configure Surrounds before Rear Surrounds are even an option. Rear Surrounds must be enabled before Wides are an option.

What would the purpose of this be? In a 5.1 configuration it doesn't matter if the surrounds are on the side or rear of the listeners, they receive the same audio either way.
Yea here's the use case for this for me. I play back all music in all channel stereo mode. My expectation in this mode is all the speakers play in stereo no dolby processing. With presets, I want to then do the following:
disable center (or enable center at -6db).
disable all ceiling speakers
disable surrounds
enable rear surrounds at -3db for rear fill.
Enable subs with one running LP crossover at 40hz, set front speakers to full range, enable sub 2 with either no LP or LP at 120hz (this runs my shakers).

The use case here is my front speakers are great. My rear surrounds are very nice. The surrounds (due to placements) are satellites I'd rather have off during music. Plus I also prefer to put a better amp on the rear surround speakers for this reason.

For that matter, does this processor even support "all channel stereo"? Maybe I shouldn't assume this is supported.


I currently have 3 presets I use:
1) Movies. This is the full atmos setup. All speakers are enabled. If there's room control it is enabled. Crossovers are standard 80 hz type crossovers.

2) Music. This takes 2 channel and sets to all channel stereo no dolby. Room control is *disabled*. This disables surrounds, ceiling. It sets center at -6db. It sets rear surrounds (still enabled) at -3db. It changes crossover to 40hz for sub. Currently my shakers play only 40hz down, I'd like ability to set those to around 100 or 120hz in this case. That'd be done by enabling REINFORCE BASS for this preset and setting sub #2 to 120hz LP crossover for this preset. Essentially 5 speakers + sub are playing in this configuration in stereo, with floor speakers running full range.

3) Games. This is similar to the movie preset, but I disable the center and use virtual center. Due to the way games work with panning audio based on where you're at, and how my center is underneath my screen, I get superior performance this way. Also on this preset, I would up the LFE on sub #2 to 120hz (for shakers) and leave sub #1 at 80hz. This allows more tactile feeling for sound effects. For movies, I leave the shaker crossover low with the sub crossover.

My anthem currently supports most this except it cant handle double bass or 2 subs so I have pretty big tradeoffs. The anthem has the same limitation that I cannot enable the rear surrounds when surrounds are disabled so for music I have the surrounds enabled at -12db. I could survive with that same limitation in a new processor but the artificial limitation doesn't make much sense to me.

I then have my system set up to automatically switch presets via IP control. When I fire up Kodi, movie preset is auto selected. When I play a game, game preset is auto selected. When I load foobar for music, music preset is auto selected. Desktop uses movie preset so exiting any of the above restores to movie preset. If the presets didnt exist but each of these items could be toggled via IP control, I could script presets controlled by my computer and be ok.

Anyways, those are my personal uses and needs. I can't buy a new processor without the presets so if this is something coming later after initial release, I'll have to wait and see.

Video: JVC RS4500 135" screen in pure black room no light, htpc nvidia 1080ti.
Audio: Anthem mrx720 running 7.1.4, McIntosh MC-303, MC-152, B&W 802d3 LR, B&W HTM1D3 center, B&W 805d3 surround, B&W 702S2 rear, B&W 706s2 x 4 shelf mounted for atmos, 2 sub arrays both infinite baffle: 4x15 fi audio running on behringer ep4000 + 4x12 fi audio running on 2nd ep4000.

Last edited by markmon1; 11-19-2019 at 08:58 PM.
markmon1 is online now  
post #1349 of 1672 Old 11-19-2019, 09:15 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Magnus_CA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,435
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 94 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Was the choice not to include an OSD a conscious one? Possibly for video purity reasons? My rack will be in a closet so seeing the front lcd of the pre-pro is not an option. Perhaps I'm overthinking the value of an osd considering I'll have a universal remote with an lcd but it seems odd to me to leave it off a $4k processor.
Magnus_CA is offline  
post #1350 of 1672 Old 11-19-2019, 09:16 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Magnus_CA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,435
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 94 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
By the way, thanks for taking your time to respond to me at all



Well if you going to allow "reinforce bass" as an option, you probably need to be able to put an upper limit on the subwoofer outside the LFE so maybe something from 40 to 200 as a low pass for the sub channel.







Ok this all sounds great! Edit: actually rereading what you wrote, this sounds backwards. It sounds like it takes subwoofer LFE and also reroutes that to regular speakers labelled "large". I want the opposite. I want the large speaker signal to additionally be routed to subs (with an option). If I enable a sub, enable front speakers to full range, then set my sub x-over at 100hz and enable "double bass", I expect sounds sent to a front speaker that are below 100hz to play both on that speaker and on the subwoofer. I don't want the LFE channel sounds to ever play on my front speakers, however. Is this actually possible?





Trinnov and Anthem both have pretty good implementations. I want to be able to select a physical video input, physical audio input, speaker levels, crossovers, perhaps EQ settings, room control on/off, and which speakers are enabled. Also the upscaling mode for what to do with 2 channel audio. (Stereo, all channel stereo, upscale dolby, upscale dts etc). If there's a way to one-button or one-ip-command select these things that meets my needs at least





I didn't know any of this. I guess I can rule out Lyngdorf/McIntosh also then.





Awesome





Yea here's the use case for this for me. I play back all music in all channel stereo mode. My expectation in this mode is all the speakers play in stereo no dolby processing. With presets, I want to then do the following:

disable center (or enable center at -6db).

disable all ceiling speakers

disable surrounds

enable rear surrounds at -3db for rear fill.

Enable subs with one running LP crossover at 40hz, set front speakers to full range, enable sub 2 with either no LP or LP at 120hz (this runs my shakers).



The use case here is my front speakers are great. My rear surrounds are very nice. The surrounds (due to placements) are satellites I'd rather have off during music. Plus I also prefer to put a better amp on the rear surround speakers for this reason.



For that matter, does this processor even support "all channel stereo"? Maybe I shouldn't assume this is supported.





I currently have 3 presets I use:

1) Movies. This is the full atmos setup. All speakers are enabled. If there's room control it is enabled. Crossovers are standard 80 hz type crossovers.



2) Music. This takes 2 channel and sets to all channel stereo no dolby. Room control is *disabled*. This disables surrounds, ceiling. It sets center at -6db. It sets rear surrounds (still enabled) at -3db. It changes crossover to 40hz for sub. Currently my shakers play only 40hz down, I'd like ability to set those to around 100 or 120hz in this case. That'd be done by enabling REINFORCE BASS for this preset and setting sub #2 to 120hz LP crossover for this preset. Essentially 5 speakers + sub are playing in this configuration in stereo, with floor speakers running full range.



3) Games. This is similar to the movie preset, but I disable the center and use virtual center. Due to the way games work with panning audio based on where you're at, and how my center is underneath my screen, I get superior performance this way. Also on this preset, I would up the LFE on sub #2 to 120hz (for shakers) and leave sub #1 at 80hz. This allows more tactile feeling for sound effects. For movies, I leave the shaker crossover low with the sub crossover.



My anthem currently supports most this except it cant handle double bass or 2 subs so I have pretty big tradeoffs. The anthem has the same limitation that I cannot enable the rear surrounds when surrounds are disabled so for music I have the surrounds enabled at -12db. I could survive with that same limitation in a new processor but the artificial limitation doesn't make much sense to me.



I then have my system set up to automatically switch presets via IP control. When I fire up Kodi, movie preset is auto selected. When I play a game, game preset is auto selected. When I load foobar for music, music preset is auto selected. Desktop uses movie preset so exiting any of the above restores to movie preset. If the presets didnt exist but each of these items could be toggled via IP control, I could script presets controlled by my computer and be ok.



Anyways, those are my personal uses and needs. I can't buy a new processor without the presets so if this is something coming later after initial release, I'll have to wait and see.
I didn't know I wanted presets until I saw this post. Ignorance really is bliss.
mik2h likes this.
Magnus_CA is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Receivers, Amps, and Processors

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off