Monoprice HTP-1 announced. (16ch, 9.1.6 Atmos Surround Sound Processor) - Page 53 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1561 of 1669 Old 12-02-2019, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by VooBass View Post
I'll be waiting for the HDMI 2.1-updated version.
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post #1562 of 1669 Old 12-02-2019, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
What will you be using as a SSP for the next ~1 year? What 2.1 devices do you plan to purchase? What 2.1 features are you most interested in?

To me, connecting HDMI 2.1 devices directly to the 2.1 display, ≤2.0b devices to the SSP and utilizing eARC in between the display and SSP is the best solution moving forward.
While I typically agree with a lot of your posts / advice, I don't in this case. While that sounds great in theory, what if we have more than a few source devices (most displays only have a "few" inputs)? What about people with projectors that are almost always located far from the source devices? What if, like previous versions of ARC, eARC doesn't really work well in practice? I'd MUCH rather connect my sources to my SSP (or a matrix switch that serves the various sinks in my home) and have a single HDMI cable go to the display.
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post #1563 of 1669 Old 12-02-2019, 10:19 AM
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PS5, Xbox Scarlett, PC, … are around the corner! So I do want a processor that can handle HDMI 2.1. Specially gamers will benefit a lot from the new standard. Monoprice promises a upgrade, hope that will be true.
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post #1564 of 1669 Old 12-02-2019, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
What will you be using as a SSP for the next ~1 year? What 2.1 devices do you plan to purchase? What 2.1 features are you most interested in?

To me, connecting HDMI 2.1 devices directly to the 2.1 display, ≤2.0b devices to the SSP and utilizing eARC in between the display and SSP is the best solution moving forward.

Where do I start (and there's no way I'm typing the many pages it would take me to cover all of my objections). For now, I'll keep using my 7.1 receiver. For me, these hardware purchases are significant. My long-term plan for my home theater does not include buying a pre-pro today that I know I will want to replace 6 months/one year from now. And I'm not very good at selling stuff simply because if I don't want something anymore I find it hard to conceive why someone else would want it. Hence, I give it away for pennies.

I configure my current equipment using ARC as you suggest. I expect eARC to be no better of a solution/compromise. I greatly preferred day-to-day activities with my system when everything routed through the receiver. For example, I frequently like to make adjustments to the receiver settings and to do so I have to view the OSD. But if I'm watching a disc (or Netflix because streaming apps on the disc player perform better than those built into the tv) I have to switch sources on the tv, make adjustments, close the OSD, then get an error message that the tv is no longer on the input of the disc player, then go through selecting the disc player input, and eventually I'm back to watching whatever it is I've forgotten I was watching.

Regarding what new HDMI 2.1 sources I am looking forward to, the PS5 for sure. However, the whole point of buying a pre-pro with every conceivable input/output/format support is at least a little bit of future-proofing. And I believe HDMI 2.1 will eventually reveal nasty surprises for current equipment owners. Of course, I believe the committee behind HDMI standards are also the master-fiends behind the Yakuza and Spectre, too, so there is that.

So, go ahead and stick with a standard that was supposed to have been replaced two years ago. Me, I have no need for another Betamax.
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post #1565 of 1669 Old 12-02-2019, 10:26 AM
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I can't believe I have been refreshing this page daily for the past 2 months, hoping for updates about a processor capable of 16 channels with Dirac Live! wow, I have been waiting for this since I have installed my 6 in ceiling speakers, two years ago.

12/06/2019 is the date. Hopefully, this time it's true. Four little days. Fingers crossed.
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post #1566 of 1669 Old 12-02-2019, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VooBass View Post
However, the whole point of buying a pre-pro with every conceivable input/output/format support is at least a little bit of future-proofing.

So, go ahead and stick with a standard that was supposed to have been replaced two years ago. Me, I have no need for another Betamax.
Another Betamax? Why are you singling out this particular processor to complain about the lack of HDMI 2.1? It's not like HDMI 2.1 even exists on any consumer device. And a quick check of your recent posting history shows no similar complaints about any other processor.
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post #1567 of 1669 Old 12-02-2019, 10:49 AM
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Another Betamax? Why are you singling out this particular processor to complain about the lack of HDMI 2.1? It's not like HDMI 2.1 even exists on any consumer device. And a quick check of your recent posting history shows no similar complaints about any other processor.
I guess I wasn't clear, I'm not complaining about the HPT-1. The HPT-1 is great, my first choice. I'm just saying I'm happy to wait until it is upgraded to HDMI 2.1.
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post #1568 of 1669 Old 12-02-2019, 12:09 PM
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HDMI 2.1 is a loose standard in that most features are not mandatory.
That said, the LG 9 series OLEDs support HDMI 2.1.

I think the sentiment is that processors are released and within a year there is a new HDMI standard.
Most processors that can be upgraded must be shipped back.

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post #1569 of 1669 Old 12-02-2019, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by duckymomo
*snip*
Software is absolutely not "ALWAYS low price and large volume!". There are many thousands of niche software products. Roon is very much a niche product, so you have a limited number of potential customers. Pretty much everyone on AVS is part of a niche market. The masses use Airplay, Chromecast, Sonos, etc... if anything at all.
Indeed, and at least they offer the "cash grab" unlimited license. Does Adobe perpetually license Photoshop? No! Annual licensing is the "niche" software way these days. The only reason, IMO, Roon even offers an unlimited license is because they are still small (if they were as big as Adobe they'd bank on you paying yearly, forever, until you don't want their product any more).

Pick whether you think Roon will be around (and you'll be a user) for six-ish years; chose your license accordingly. Also, if they get big enough, IMO, the unlimited license will be vanquished.
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While I typically agree with a lot of your posts / advice, I don't in this case. While that sounds great in theory, what if we have more than a few source devices (most displays only have a "few" inputs)? What about people with projectors that are almost always located far from the source devices? What if, like previous versions of ARC, eARC doesn't really work well in practice? I'd MUCH rather connect my sources to my SSP (or a matrix switch that serves the various sinks in my home) and have a single HDMI cable go to the display.
So buy an HDMI 2.1 switch / splitter with an eARC output and place it next to your "antiquated" eARC receiver -- problem solved. I'd much prefer this model of splitting the audio from video, it seems more reliable than what's currently done. So long as you don't care about OSD, which, if you're looking at this model you don't, it works fine. Moreover, as has been stated in this thread, if your display sufficiently implements CEC you may even get some "OSD" (i.e., an overlay generated by the display in response to CEC command issuance, e.g., volume up) with this particular unit (and any others that implement CEC to similar extent).

If eARC was the HDMI model from the onset, how many receiver upgrades would you have avoided?
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post #1570 of 1669 Old 12-02-2019, 04:20 PM
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So buy an HDMI 2.1 switch / splitter with an eARC output and place it next to your "antiquated" eARC receiver -- problem solved. I'd much prefer this model of splitting the audio from video, it seems more reliable than what's currently done. So long as you don't care about OSD, which, if you're looking at this model you don't, it works fine. Moreover, as has been stated in this thread, if your display sufficiently implements CEC you may even get some "OSD" (i.e., an overlay generated by the display in response to CEC command issuance, e.g., volume up) with this particular unit (and any others that implement CEC to similar extent).
Splitting audio from video has the potential to introduce other issues, such as lip sync problems (yes, eARC allegedly addresses this specific issue). It also adds an extra box to the system.

Based on past experiences with it, I'm very resistant to using anything that requires turning CEC on, so I don't see that as an acceptable replacement for an OSD. Looking at the Monoprice as a possible next SSP doesn't mean that I don't care about OSD - it means I might be willing to live without out OSD which isn't the same thing.

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If eARC was the HDMI model from the onset, how many receiver upgrades would you have avoided?
Hmm. Maybe 1? But you're also assuming eARC actually works well in all cases and I'm taking more of a wait and see approach. My surround sound processor upgrades have usually been more audio focused, until I replaced my Denon AVP with a Marantz AV8805; and yes, this was to get 4K video support. As far as surround sound goes, I've owned an Onkyo Integra AVR (no HDMI), Proceed AVP (no HDMI), Lexicon MC-12B (added HDMI, but it had very limited audio format support), Denon AVP (added support for HD audio), and now the Marantz AV8805 (I gained 4K video support here) - over the course of about 25-30 years, that's not too many changes and the existence of eARC only would have possibly prevented one of those (given the age of the Denon I may have had to replace it soon anyway).
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post #1571 of 1669 Old 12-02-2019, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by gsr View Post
Based on past experiences with it, I'm very resistant to using anything that requires turning CEC on, so I don't see that as an acceptable replacement for an OSD. Looking at the Monoprice as a possible next SSP doesn't mean that I don't care about OSD - it means I might be willing to live without out OSD which isn't the same thing
I own the Lexicon MC-10 which is nothing more than a rebadged, slightly massaged Arcam and it has OSD. I would expect the JBL SDP-55 to likewise have OSD since it is also of Arcam bloodline. Not sure if OSD is worth the cost difference to you as the Monoprice is definitely cheaper MSRP. I am anxious to see what the final street price of both units are. I just wish they would both launch so we can get down this road.

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post #1572 of 1669 Old 12-02-2019, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by gsr View Post
Splitting audio from video has the potential to introduce other issues, such as lip sync problems (yes, eARC allegedly addresses this specific issue).
But it's always being split unless you're using the display's audio, as such there must always exist a mechanism to account for lip sync. I'd suspect eARC does this as well as the previous methods; can't see that being an unreasonable assumption.
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It also adds an extra box to the system.
One that will only need to be replaced when the HDMI standard is changed and is, potentially, less expensive than the pre-amp you purchased (and if it's not, you're doing it wrong, lol).
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Based on past experiences with it, I'm very resistant to using anything that requires turning CEC on, so I don't see that as an acceptable replacement for an OSD.
Can't disagree, but, especially in this regard, our resident beta-tester has given me pause.
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Looking at the Monoprice as a possible next SSP doesn't mean that I don't care about OSD - it means I might be willing to live without out OSD which isn't the same thing.
True enough.
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Hmm. Maybe 1? But you're also assuming eARC actually works well in all cases and I'm taking more of a wait and see approach.
I'm not assuming that, I'm hopeful, though, as you may be. I feel eARC is certainly more ideal than ARC and that it, if implemented well, addresses the compatibility issues exactly as the marketing material describes.
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My surround sound processor upgrades have usually been more audio focused, until I replaced my Denon AVP with a Marantz AV8805; and yes, this was to get 4K video support. As far as surround sound goes, I've owned an Onkyo Integra AVR (no HDMI), Proceed AVP (no HDMI), Lexicon MC-12B (added HDMI, but it had very limited audio format support), Denon AVP (added support for HD audio), and now the Marantz AV8805 (I gained 4K video support here) - over the course of about 25-30 years, that's not too many changes and the existence of eARC only would have possibly prevented one of those (given the age of the Denon I may have had to replace it soon anyway).
Fair enough. For those that are video minded (and I am admittedly not), the "eARC approach" makes more sense. Video (specifically its bandwidth needs) has been the only thing that has necessitated changes to HDMI (everything else has been thrust upon us for other reasons, e.g., HDCP upgrades or specification changes that shouldn't have been required if the inept HDMI "standards" committee wasn't pathetically short-sighted (or greedy...unsure which it really was)).

Honestly, we all know HDMI is crap. It's a crap standard based on a video-only link (DVI) with audio jammed into the video blanking (I believe). I despise it, wish it was never released; hope it gets replaced and everyone involved with HDMI goes broke, .
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post #1573 of 1669 Old 12-02-2019, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by stef2 View Post
I can't believe I have been refreshing this page daily for the past 2 months, hoping for updates about a processor capable of 16 channels with Dirac Live! wow, I have been waiting for this since I have installed my 6 in ceiling speakers, two years ago.



12/06/2019 is the date. Hopefully, this time it's true. Four little days. Fingers crossed.
I will ask @MonolithGuy to provide a status update prior if the HTP-1 will not be available for order on 12/6/19.
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post #1574 of 1669 Old 12-02-2019, 09:36 PM
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I've enjoyed the discussions around HDMI 2.1 & eARC. I don't believe there to be a right or wrong side of this and I agree with many of the points being made. I am not a fan of HDMI (x.anything). Why a locking connector was never adopted baffles me. But, we are stuck with HDMI if we want modern audio codec support as well as video resolution beyond 720p/1080i.

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When I write that for me I find eARC to be the best future proof solution, it is personal (based on my needs and experiences). Ultimately we will have options to choose from.

I find the reasoning of the prior posts (for or against) quite valid. I'm guessing most opposed to eARC are soured by prior bad experiences with ARC (1st & 2nd hand).

I find the SSP and display manufacturers primarily to blame for the poor reputation of ARC (not HDMI.org). Why is the ARC HDMI input port on panel displays so randomly inconsistent? I'm finding that it is usually not HDMI-1! While the HDMI chipsets are definitely factors, the CEC implentation ultimately falls on the SSP and Display manufacturers. Manufacturers seem to only be concerned with interoperability with their own brand portfolios. I still run into compatibility problems with new, HDMI 2.0 components.

When CEC works I find it wonderful. Being able to control sources and the SSP via the TV remote is quite convenient. As is being able to control the SSP volume from a source component's remote is a welcome convenience. I like using the Apple TV 4 remote touchpad for "scrubbing" (opposed to older ATV or universal remotes which cannot scrub).

ARC was likely an afterthought for most until c.2017. Prior, there was no significant difference between ARC and a separate S/PDIF digital audio connection. Once it was possible to utilize SmartTV apps to pass DD+/Atmos the ARC interoperability issues became more apparent.

There are only two major companies that I can say have CEC implementations that simply work and are comprehensive (I have used many but not all), Sony and Denon+Marantz. I did run into problems when Sony initially moved to Android OS but they seem to have righted that ship. Only in the last few months has my LG C8 OLED's worked ARC worked consistently. I would not be surprised if LG's eARC implementation lags Sony's as well.

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Originally Posted by gsr View Post
While I typically agree with a lot of your posts / advice, I don't in this case. While that sounds great in theory, what if we have more than a few source devices (most displays only have a "few" inputs)?
Only your HDMI 2.1 devices would need to be directly to the 2.1 display. All <2.1 devices would/could still connect to the SSP as your primary HDMI hub/switch.

Last edited by Marc Alexander; 12-02-2019 at 09:40 PM.
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post #1575 of 1669 Old 12-03-2019, 12:24 AM
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post
HDMI 2.1 is a loose standard in that most features are not mandatory.

That said, the LG 9 series OLEDs support HDMI 2.1.
To add to the HDMI confusion each
HDMI x.y rvision has a bandwidth and a feature component.

Some SSPs were sold w/HDMI 2.0 features on 1.4 chipsets (limited to 10.2 Gbps) initially. The first 2.1 implementations will use 2.0 chipsets (18Gbps). I believe this describes the HDMI 2.1 in the 2019 LGs (4k60p HDR max, 4k120Hz bt.709 8-bit color).

The true HDMI 2.1 chipsets will be available in two flavors, 24 and 48 Gbps.

https://www.rtings.com/tv/learn/tv/t...nputs/hdmi-2-1

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post #1576 of 1669 Old 12-03-2019, 01:08 AM
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I'm still waiting for an HDBaseT update
I lived in hope for a while that HDMI 2 would offer an ethernet based option.
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I will ask @MonolithGuy to provide a status update prior if the HTP-1 will not be available for order on 12/6/19.


This would be nice. Only a few more days!
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post #1578 of 1669 Old 12-03-2019, 02:25 AM
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I'm still waiting for an HDBaseT update

I lived in hope for a while that HDMI 2 would offer an ethernet based option.
Right now there are no 24 Gbps HDMI 2.1 devices to extend over Ethernet.

HDFury's Maestro (proprietary HDMI over Ethernet) will likely support 18 Gbps HDMI 2.1 (eARC is already supported). I expect them to be first to support 24 Gbps HDMI 2.1 over Ethernet.

It probably will not be too difficult to add 2.1 support over 18 Gbps HDBaseT.
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post #1579 of 1669 Old 12-03-2019, 02:37 AM
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Right now there are no 24 Gbps HDMI 2.1 devices to extend over Ethernet.

HDFury's Maestro (proprietary HDMI over Ethernet) will likely support 18 Gbps HDMI 2.1 (eARC is already supported). I expect them to be first to support 24 Gbps HDMI 2.1 over Ethernet.

It probably will not be too difficult to add 2.1 support over 18 Gbps HDBaseT.
Thank you for the reply, was beginning to think I was the last dinosaur left using this tech. Is the new revision of HDBaseT available yet? I saw it was displayed earlier in the year but have not yet seen any products. My understanding is the current HDBaseT products are limited to 10.2Gbps and their compression is incompatible with Dolby Vision. The HDFury product looks interesting although somewhat expensive/overkill for my needs and if it is not standard HDBASET I suppose it is incompatible with matrix switchers.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
Right now there are no 24 Gbps HDMI 2.1 devices to extend over Ethernet.

HDFury's Maestro (proprietary HDMI over Ethernet) will likely support 18 Gbps HDMI 2.1 (eARC is already supported). I expect them to be first to support 24 Gbps HDMI 2.1 over Ethernet.

It probably will not be too difficult to add 2.1 support over 18 Gbps HDBaseT.


All the HDMI over Ethernet solutions , such as HDFury you mention and HDBaseT, use significant compression. That is because cat5e cables and network equipment support 1 Gbps maximum throughout. HDMI 2.0 is 18 Gbps so by definition this is severe video compression.
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post #1581 of 1669 Old 12-03-2019, 06:08 AM
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All the HDMI over Ethernet solutions , such as HDFury you mention and HDBaseT, use significant compression. That is because cat5e cables and network equipment support 1 Gbps maximum throughout. HDMI 2.0 is 18 Gbps so by definition this is severe video compression.
CAT6A is the answer. Finding true CAT6A may take some trial and error i.e. I wouldn't trust a Monoprice labeled CAT6A to be true CAT6A quality.

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All the HDMI over Ethernet solutions , such as HDFury you mention and HDBaseT, use significant compression. That is because cat5e cables and network equipment support 1 Gbps maximum throughout. HDMI 2.0 is 18 Gbps so by definition this is severe video compression.
Do you have any evidence to support this?

My understanding is that HDBaseT is in fact 8Gbs and uses more efficient encoding than HDMI 10b so has the same available data bandwidth as HDMI 1.4. This means it can for example transmit 4K/24 4:2:2 HDR without compression. Many Cat5e cables will carry 10Gbit for shorter lengths (<20M), I have some 10 Gbit gear at home and have tried it.
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post #1583 of 1669 Old 12-03-2019, 06:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Krobar View Post
Many Cat5e cables will carry 10Gbit for shorter lengths (<20M), I have some 10 Gbit gear at home and have tried it.
This is true to an extent. Cables are standardized by the IEEE for their bandwidth at their maximum distance. In a short run, one may experience more throughput. As cheap as twisted pair cables are, I wouldn't risk it and just buy the proper rating especially if one is running it through conduit to a projector - buy once, cry once.

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post #1584 of 1669 Old 12-03-2019, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blake View Post
All the HDMI over Ethernet solutions , such as HDFury you mention and HDBaseT, use significant compression. That is because cat5e cables and network equipment support 1 Gbps maximum throughout. HDMI 2.0 is 18 Gbps so by definition this is severe video compression.
Have you tried HDBaseT and did you see artifacts? Are you opposed to chroma subsampling too? How about Dolby and DTS codecs?

VESA Display Stream Compression (DSC) is labeled a "visually lossless compression". It is part of the DisplayPort standard that I've read many clamor for. 18Gbps HDBaseT utilizes DSC 1.1. DSC 1.2a support is part of DisplayPort 2.0 and HDMI 2.1 standards.

https://vesa.org/vesa-display-compression-codecs/dsc/
https://www.displayport.org/faq/#tab...ompression-dsc

https://vesa.org/vesa-display-compression-codecs/

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post #1585 of 1669 Old 12-03-2019, 09:59 AM
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Lyngdorf/SL/McIntosh are the only SSPs that have included HDBaseT outputs. These also include an advanced HDMI matrix beyond what other SSPs support (including D+M).

I hope that we will see components utilize DSC to squeeze more (i.e. 4k120 HDR) over 18 Gbps cables.
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post #1586 of 1669 Old 12-03-2019, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Krobar View Post
Thank you for the reply, was beginning to think I was the last dinosaur left using this tech. Is the new revision of HDBaseT available yet? I saw it was displayed earlier in the year but have not yet seen any products. My understanding is the current HDBaseT products are limited to 10.2Gbps and their compression is incompatible with Dolby Vision. The HDFury product looks interesting although somewhat expensive/overkill for my needs and if it is not standard HDBASET I suppose it is incompatible with matrix switchers.
Atlona makes some cool HDBaseT solutions that support full 4K/HDR10 @ 18Gbps. I have one of their systems and it does work with full 4K/HDR10 signal with a 175' Cat6 shielded cable. There is a newer system from Atlona (OmniStream) that supports Dolby Vision and as far I can tell, it's the only one Dolby Vision certified HDMI over IP solution to date. The problem is that it's crazy expensive.

HDR10:
https://atlona.com/product/at-hdr-ex-70-2ps/

HDR10 + Dolby Vision:
https://atlona.com/omnistream-av-over-ip-dolby-vision/

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post #1587 of 1669 Old 12-04-2019, 06:16 PM
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So...tomorrow?
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post #1588 of 1669 Old 12-04-2019, 07:36 PM
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So...tomorrow?


Two days! It’s still the 4th here.
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post #1589 of 1669 Old 12-04-2019, 07:41 PM
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Two days! It’s still the 4th here.
Ugh -- that's what I get for looking at the clock on my work computer (it's in UTC). It's been the fifth for a while on that, haha.

Well...can we just ignore "my stupid" and treat this as a inquiring bump, haha?
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post #1590 of 1669 Old 12-04-2019, 08:58 PM
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Ugh -- that's what I get for looking at the clock on my work computer (it's in UTC). It's been the fifth for a while on that, haha.

Well...can we just ignore "my stupid" and treat this as a inquiring bump, haha?


UTC Time impacts me too. I feel ya!
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