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post #31 of 46 Old 02-22-2019, 01:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post
The specs usually claim the maximum # of watts (continuous/full range) into two channels. An AVR that claims 100W/ch (continuous/full range) into 2 channels may not be able to do 100W into all 7 or 9 channels, but I don't see why it can't do 20W/ch (continuous/full range) into all 7 or 9 channels.
This. Every AVR I've looked at recently has an identical amplifier circuit for every powered channel so every channel can theoretically receive the maximum power output that the AVR can deliver. What no AVR can do is simultaneously provide that much power to every channel. So while I can maybe only push 100W per channel to two channels, I could theoretically push that 100W to any two channels. In real life of course you'll almost never get a signal sent to a surround channel that is anywhere near what is being sent to the front two channels so surround channels spend most of their lives being driven well under the capacity of their amplifiers.
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post #32 of 46 Old 02-22-2019, 05:40 PM
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I can't find the reference right now, but the Dolby specs for theater speakers to play at reference level are a few DB lower for the surrounds. So surround speakers need to be capable of handling only about half the watts of the front speakers. How many watts they actually get will depend on many variables.
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post #33 of 46 Old 02-22-2019, 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by velocci View Post
a little off topic now, right now I have a 3.1 setup. if I connect 4 extra speakers (surround and rears), will I need to raise the master volume up to get the same db level?
As long as you have a 7.1 receiver, you can connect the four extra speakers. Will you need to raise the volume up to get the same dB? ...

You’ll connect the four surround speakers and run the room correction. That will balance the volume/level of all channels at the seating area. Then you use the master volume.

If everything is set properly, as you reach 0 DB on the receiver (reference level) you’re at about 80 or 85 DB in the room.
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post #34 of 46 Old 02-23-2019, 10:02 AM
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how many watts goes into a surround or rear speaker?

Quote:
Originally Posted by velocci View Post
a little off topic now, right now I have a 3.1 setup. if I connect 4 extra speakers (surround and rears), will I need to raise the master volume up to get the same db level?
Perhaps. Once again, it depends upon the impedance of the new speakers you introduce to the setup, and the AVR that you’re using, and the content being played.

You’re asking theoretical questions to which the most reliable answer will be “maybe, it depends.”
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post #35 of 46 Old 02-23-2019, 11:14 AM
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I've been researching and asking a lot of questions about this lately, and here's the general rule as I can tell.

For home theater, if you have subs with their own amps, all you need is a quality amp with 100 watts per channel and you'll have more than what you need for your fronts and surrounds. It'll barely sweat even at 85 dB. Your surrounds just don't need much power.

If you listen to two channel music loud without separate subs, you need more beef.

So you should go with less amp if you don't need it. It'll run cooler with less chance of signal noise.
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post #36 of 46 Old 02-23-2019, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by velocci View Post
Hi all, does anyone have a rough idea of how many watts on average goes into a surround or rear speaker? I know it depends on the AVR used or the volume, but I'm interested in knowing a rough percentage relative to the front speakers. so if there is an average of 50 watts going into the front speakers while watching a movie, how many do you think are going into the surround or rear? half? a quarter? 10%? Has anyone on the internet tested this?
Several variables affect this question including:
  • Mix of the content
  • Type of content, cinema, music
  • Load of loudspeakers, impedance/sensitivity
  • Channel trim settings
  • Native format of content, PCM 2.0, DD 5.1, DTS 5.1
  • Surround mode settings of output, post processing, DD 2.0 + DPL2x, DD + 5.1, Dolby HD, stereo 5, stereo 7

Alot of great points raised in this thread, but too many options for a single response.

Just my $0.02...
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post #37 of 46 Old 02-23-2019, 12:33 PM
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Not sure what the format of the digital audio stream matters, since OP is presuming that with surround speakers connected, there's content there. But, all right, I'll concede that a compressed or uncompressed 5.1 stream will have more content, requiring more power/current than a 2.0 stream decoded/upmixed to 5.1 by an AVR, according to my spitball and rolling D20 analysis.
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post #38 of 46 Old 02-23-2019, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChromeJob View Post
Not sure what the format of the digital audio stream matters, since OP is presuming that with surround speakers connected, there's content there. But, all right, I'll concede that a compressed or uncompressed 5.1 stream will have more content, requiring more power/current than a 2.0 stream decoded/upmixed to 5.1 by an AVR, according to my spitball and rolling D20 analysis.
Pretty simple..
A Dolby Digital 5.1 or 7.1 discrete source vs. Dolby Digital 2.0 and post-processed to 5.1 or 7.1, will likely have different levels and frequencies... Also a 5 or 7 channel stereo audio output setting will likely distribute equal levels/frequencies to the respective pairing of L/R front, L/R surround & L/R back surrounds...

Just my $0.02...
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post #39 of 46 Old 02-23-2019, 12:58 PM
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True, old Dolby Surround-encoded 2.0 soundtracks had the surrounds limited in frequency. By the same token, if the AVR has surrounds marked "small" (or whatever) to enable bass management (sending LF and ULF freqs to a powered subwoofer), the surrounds will likely be consuming a bit less power .

All of this sits under the same "it depends upon the content" umbrella already opened up IMHO.
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post #40 of 46 Old 02-23-2019, 06:32 PM - Thread Starter
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lets play a game. let's say i'm watching a recent 7.1 audio movie, but my AVR is set to 3.1 only. I pause the movie, plug in the two surrounds and two rears, put my AVR to 7.1 mode, and press play. I never touched any volume settings or any other settings and didn't re-run audyssey. I know it all depends on all the factors above, if you guys had to bet $100 if the db level coming out of the fronts goes up, down or stays the same, which would you bet? you don't know any other information, so you have to go by probability only.

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post #41 of 46 Old 02-23-2019, 07:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by velocci View Post
a little off topic now, right now I have a 3.1 setup. if I connect 4 extra speakers (surround and rears), will I need to raise the master volume up to get the same db level?
Quote:
Originally Posted by velocci View Post
lets play a game. let's say i'm watching a recent 7.1 audio movie, but my AVR is set to 3.1 only. I pause the movie, plug in the two surrounds and two rears, put my AVR to 7.1 mode, and press play. I never touched any volume settings or any other settings and didn't re-run audyssey. I know it all depends on all the factors above, if you guys had to bet $100 if the db level coming out of the fronts goes up, down or stays the same, which would you bet? you don't know any other information, so you have to go by probability only.
I do this all the time. I range from 3.1 to 5.1 to 7.1.4. The levels do not change, or if they do, I am not capable of perceiving it. In my system, I'd bet that $100.00 on levels stay the same. BUT - I'm using different gear than yours. So, YMMV!

I would think, at least theoretically, that if the receiver is capable and everything is level matched by the receiver properly, you will not need to raise the volume to achieve the same SPL with the 4 extra speakers. No expert claims here though.

FWIW - my rear surrounds are "recommended 30 - 110 watts" - they get plenty loud, no strain.

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post #42 of 46 Old 02-24-2019, 08:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erod View Post
I've been researching and asking a lot of questions about this lately, and here's the general rule as I can tell.

For home theater, if you have subs with their own amps, all you need is a quality amp with 100 watts per channel and you'll have more than what you need for your fronts and surrounds. It'll barely sweat even at 85 dB. Your surrounds just don't need much power.

If you listen to two channel music loud without separate subs, you need more beef.

So you should go with less amp if you don't need it. It'll run cooler with less chance of signal noise.
I think you are WAAAAY underestimating the capability one needs to achieve clean, uncompressed, low distortion reference level playback using commonly available retail brand speakers.



Lets assume speakers with 87 dB efficiency which is somewhat average. Sure, some mfgrs advertise higher, but these are VERY often inflated.

In order to reach reference level peaks of 105 dB, one needs to double power 6 times as 105-87= 18dB increase. Every 3 dB takes double the power. So 18/3 = 6 doublings of power. Now we need 64 watts in order to barely eek out reference level playback transients. However, this is at 1 meter distance from the speakers.

Lets assume we are 12 feet from the speakers, or 4 meters. Every doubling of distance from the speakers reduces SPL by 6 dB. From 1 to 2 m reduces SPL by 6 db, 2-4m reduces another 6dB. We just lost 12 dB from our 105dB peak at 1m. This puts us at 93 dB peaks from 64 watts with 87 dB speakers. But wait, we need 105 dB. So lets double our power enough times to reach 105 dB. We have to double our power 4x. 64x2x2x2x2.

So we need 1,024 watts from our 87 dB Polk or whatever retail brand speaker to hit reference level SPL. We all know that no retail speaker made will handle this much power, nor will it handle it with low distortion and without compression.

This is a big reason why most folks can't tolerate reference level playback....they assume their system can handle it but in reality our ears are being assaulted by extreme distortion and compression at this level from average retail speakers, probably even Klipsch with their falsely inflated efficiency numbers.

If you want clean, uncompressed, low distortion, dynamic, powerful reference level playback, might as well go with real, high quality, high efficiency speakers such as those made by PSA or JTR. Or DIY some speakers from DIYSoundGroup.

And for the record, I am nowhere close to full reference capability in my system(other than subs ). I've been in reference capable rooms where reference level sounded comfortably listenable(although very impressive), and more listenable than my system at -15 to -10 MV.

In comparison, a true 96 db efficient speaker needs 32 watts to hit 105 dB at 12' listening distance. A 99 db speaker needs 16 watts. Subtract 5 dB from any number the Klipsch marketing department advertises.

I currently have 87-89ish dB Hsu HB1 MK2 bookshelf speakers and HC1 MK2 center. Although my speakers are probably the last item I will consider upgrading, I won't buy anything with less than 95 dB efficiency if and when I do upgrade. My last AVR upgrade did add 3-5 dB of tolerable headroom to my system from the increased power, although that was not the primary reason I upgraded. My old base model RXV-375 pooped the bed and I ended up with Denon X3300 primarily for Audyssey XT32 and subeqHT.
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Last edited by bear123; 02-24-2019 at 08:13 AM.
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post #43 of 46 Old 02-24-2019, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by velocci View Post
lets play a game.…
No, let’s not.

You keep finding different ways to ask the same question that you’ve been asking. I think you’ve gotten plenty of answers. Either you don’t like the answers, don’t understand them, or are just trolling.

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post #44 of 46 Old 02-24-2019, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erod View Post
I've been researching and asking a lot of questions about this lately, and here's the general rule as I can tell.

For home theater, if you have subs with their own amps, all you need is a quality amp with 100 watts per channel and you'll have more than what you need for your fronts and surrounds. It'll barely sweat even at 85 dB. Your surrounds just don't need much power.

If you listen to two channel music loud without separate subs, you need more beef.

So you should go with less amp if you don't need it. It'll run cooler with less chance of signal noise.
I think you are WAAAAY underestimating the capability one needs to achieve clean, uncompressed, low distortion reference level playback using commonly available retail brand speakers.



Lets assume speakers with 87 dB efficiency which is somewhat average. Sure, some mfgrs advertise higher, but these are VERY often inflated.

In order to reach reference level peaks of 105 dB, one needs to double power 6 times as 105-87= 18dB increase. Every 3 dB takes double the power. So 18/3 = 6 doublings of power. Now we need 64 watts in order to barely eek out reference level playback transients. However, this is at 1 meter distance from the speakers.

Lets assume we are 12 feet from the speakers, or 4 meters. Every doubling of distance from the speakers reduces SPL by 6 dB. From 1 to 2 m reduces SPL by 6 db, 2-4m reduces another 6dB. We just lost 12 dB from our 105dB peak at 1m. This puts us at 93 dB peaks from 64 watts with 87 dB speakers. But wait, we need 105 dB. So lets double our power enough times to reach 105 dB. We have to double our power 4x. 64x2x2x2x2.

So we need 1,024 watts from our 87 dB Polk or whatever retail brand speaker to hit reference level SPL. We all know that no retail speaker made will handle this much power, nor will it handle it with low distortion and without compression.

This is a big reason why most folks can't tolerate reference level playback....they assume their system can handle it but in reality our ears are being assaulted by extreme distortion and compression at this level from average retail speakers, probably even Klipsch with their falsely inflated efficiency numbers.

If you want clean, uncompressed, low distortion, dynamic, powerful reference level playback, might as well go with real, high quality, high efficiency speakers such as those made by PSA or JTR. Or DIY some speakers from DIYSoundGroup.

And for the record, I am nowhere close to full reference capability in my system(other than subs [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/IMG][IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/IMG][IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/IMG] ). I've been in reference capable rooms where reference level sounded comfortably listenable(although very impressive), and more listenable than my system at -15 to -10 MV.

In comparison, a true 96 db efficient speaker needs 32 watts to hit 105 dB at 12' listening distance. A 99 db speaker needs 16 watts. Subtract 5 dB from any number the Klipsch marketing department advertises.

I currently have 87-89ish dB Hsu HB1 MK2 bookshelf speakers and HC1 MK2 center. Although my speakers are probably the last item I will consider upgrading, I won't buy anything with less than 95 dB efficiency if and when I do upgrade. My last AVR upgrade did add 3-5 dB of tolerable headroom to my system from the increased power, although that was not the primary reason I upgraded. My old base model RXV-375 pooped the bed and I ended up with Denon X3300 primarily for Audyssey XT32 and subeqHT.
Understood, but surround channels only need about 1 watt for 90 percent of a movie, and if you want to be able to hear beyond age 50, you'd best stay away from reference listening.

My speakers are 89 dB sensitivity, and they're being powered by a B&K reference 125 watts x 7 amplifier connected to an Anthem 60 processor.
Atmos ceiling channels are by a NAD 35 watt x 4 amp, and the SVS subs have their own sledge amps. The room is about 2,800 cubic feet.

I do agree specs can be manipulated, but B&K amps perform extremely efficiently to their specs. Perhaps even beyond compared to some others in that class range.

I can listen well beyond my ideal level with excellent clarity, and my B&K amp barely gets warm at all. Movies become a bit harsh in the center channel when listened to loudly, but that's because of source, not equipment, and you can lower the center channel to compensate.

However, I don't listen to music in that room. Just movies, TV, and occasional video games. So that requires less sustained volume in the channels.

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post #45 of 46 Old 02-24-2019, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by velocci View Post
lets play a game. let's say i'm watching a recent 7.1 audio movie, but my AVR is set to 3.1 only. I pause the movie, plug in the two surrounds and two rears, put my AVR to 7.1 mode, and press play. I never touched any volume settings or any other settings and didn't re-run audyssey. I know it all depends on all the factors above, if you guys had to bet $100 if the db level coming out of the fronts goes up, down or stays the same, which would you bet? you don't know any other information, so you have to go by probability only.
I'd bet on the L-C-R sound level remaining the same...but only because you had the volume set quite low so the AVR can easily handle the extra channels without any problem.

That was an easy $100.
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post #46 of 46 Old 02-24-2019, 02:10 PM - Thread Starter
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I'll measure the SPL before and after and we'll see if you win the $100

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