12yr old Reciever Adequate? - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 74 Old 04-01-2019, 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by prsman View Post
Ill bet its a good one. Unfortunately its $2500 so well out of a price range I can consider.
What is your budget? There is a point of diminishing returns when it comes to price and with receivers, it is actually pretty low.
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post #32 of 74 Old 04-01-2019, 09:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by golfster View Post
What is your budget? There is a point of diminishing returns when it comes to price and with receivers, it is actually pretty low.

Hi Golf. My Budget is up to 700ish. Im considering the Denon 3400h which is $600 now but originally $1000. The 3400h is Heavily discounted as its been replaced by the 3500h which is now at $1000. The 3500 only difference from the 3400 that I can see is it has a phono input. I dont need most features offered by modern receivers, generally anything wireless and multi room. My use is exclusively for Movies and TV sourced from cable, Amazon Prime and media over USB. I do need 7.1, 100W. Thats what I have now running my system from the Pioneer. The improvements would be more decodings and modern room EQ. The latter is why Im enamored with the Denon and Audessey XT32. I dont know if I should upgrade........on one hand I seem to be able to get most of what I need from the 12yr old Pioneer.

Probably a lot of "I don't know what I don't know" is going on here as I dont realize the benefits or not of a modern receiver until I try it.
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post #33 of 74 Old 04-01-2019, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by prsman View Post
Ill bet its a good one. Unfortunately its $2500 so well out of a price range I can consider.
Hilarious.

If you have the budget for the Denon 3400 by all means get it.

I put together my first 5.1 system in 1986 when AVRs didn't exist and it was a VERY VERY expensive proposition to be a first adopter, ($10,000 in today's money to have a "decent" system).

After several iterations I bought the "get a niche AVR as they are far better than mainstream especially for sound" and in 1999 paid $1699, ($2500 in today's money), for a NAD T770.

It was good, much nicer to have everything in one box as opposed to separates, but it after a few years the digital audio inputs started to fail one by one followed by the analog ones one by one till I had a brick.

I replaced it in 2011 with a $500 Denon AVR 1912 and it sounded better, functioned better, obviously had WAY more features and killed my desire to chase "niche" AVRs.
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post #34 of 74 Old 04-01-2019, 10:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by gajCA View Post
Hilarious.

If you have the budget for the Denon 3400 by all means get it.

I put together my first 5.1 system in 1986 when AVRs didn't exist and it was a VERY VERY expensive proposition to be a first adopter, ($10,000 in today's money to have a "decent" system).

After several iterations I bought the "get a niche AVR as they are far better than mainstream especially for sound" and in 1999 paid $1699, ($2500 in today's money), for a NAD T770.

It was good, much nicer to have everything in one box as opposed to separates, but it after a few years the digital audio inputs started to fail one by one followed by the analog ones one by one till I had a brick.

I replaced it in 2011 with a $500 Denon AVR 1912 and it sounded better, functioned better, obviously had WAY more features and killed my desire to chase "niche" AVRs.

Its not so much the cost, I can afford anything I want, but the cost is part of the equation. I get hung up on the value, or value in terms of what Ill get out of it vs what I have now and what I really need. If I weighted the features, the wireless features would be very low. With BB and Amazon I can find out by buying, trying and returning if its not the step up from what I hope it will be or a big step up from what I have now.

Im close, some more research then Ill decide. I was turned on to this site from AVS Forum, zkelectronics, they seem to do a very comprehensive comparison, unlike BB which is often has very erroneous or with omitted data.

https://www.zkelectronics.com/compar....A.-and-Canada
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post #35 of 74 Old 04-01-2019, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by prsman View Post
Its not so much the cost, I can afford anything I want, but the cost is part of the equation. I get hung up on the value, or value in terms of what Ill get out of it vs what I have now and what I really need. If I weighted the features, the wireless features would be very low. With BB and Amazon I can find out by buying, trying and returning if its not the step up from what I hope it will be or a big step up from what I have now.

Im close, some more research then Ill decide. I was turned on to this site from AVS Forum, zkelectronics, they seem to do a very comprehensive comparison, unlike BB which is often has very erroneous or with omitted data.

https://www.zkelectronics.com/compar....A.-and-Canada
Yes, that's my point, last year's Denons offer tremendous value.

That's a nice comparison tool.

Denon's user interface and on screen set up guide is quite easy to follow though the results may need some tweaking as mentioned earlier.

No microphone EQ system is "set and forget" as many make errors in not setting all speakers to "small" even though they may physically be on the large side.

"Small" simply means you are using a subwoofer as I do with my tower speakers.
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post #36 of 74 Old 04-01-2019, 09:58 PM - Thread Starter
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I found out a couple things about Best Buy price matching. They only match " shipped from and sold by these major online retailers: Amazon.com, Crutchfield.com, Dell.com, HP.com, Newegg.com, and TigerDirect.com." Amazon for example, BB will match if sold and shipped from Amazon....not any of the 3rd party sellers. Amazon only has 3rd party sellers. None of these sellers have the Denon at a discounted price unless its a 3rd party.


I looked at the Denon site for authorized dealers. A couple of them have the AVRX3400H at a discount. Accessories4less has a factory refurb unit for 489, free ship. 1 year warranty provided.



What is your experience with factory refurb units?

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post #37 of 74 Old 04-01-2019, 11:24 PM
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FYI: I continue to use my Pioneer VSX-1015 (similar to your VSX-1016, but NO HDMI), driven by OPPO BD-Player via 5.1/7.1 RCA Connectors to AVR's "Multi-CH IN". OPPO (and a very small number of other BD & UD Players) is unusual since it does NOT BLOCK output of the new "Loss-Less" Hi-Rez Digital Audio Formats via HDMI. So I can play ANY and ALL Digital Audio Formats...EXCEPT for the Latest ATMOS formats not supported by my BD-Player...incl. Uncompressed via HDMI or Compressed Dolby Plus (E-AC3) via Optical or HDMI ARC (Audio Reverse Channel).

Unfortunately, your Sony UD-Player does NOT have this MULTI-CH capability....

And you likely already know that VSX-1016's HDMI does NOT Pass-Thru "4K", so you HAVE to connect BD-Player's HDMI #1 direct to UDTV....and Optical to VSX-1016....and HOPE you don't have any noticeable LIP-SYNC Issues....which can be solved in new AVR's by passing both Audio & Video thru it.

VSX-1016 Manual pdf's is dated Mar2006, so it likely implements HDMI v.1.2 [Aug2005]...or earlier...which means HDMI (and hence AVR) does NOT support important new Loss-Less Digital Audio Formats, incl. Dolby True-HD (incl Uncompressed AMOS), DTS-HD and other new Formats...if you care. FWIW: True-HD is noticeable improvement compared to old DD5.1/7.1....and not much difference between DTS-HD and old DTS-5.1/6.1. See fol. HDMI summary to see which new Audio and Video features you are "missing":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI#Versions

BTW: You might want to look at specs for new AVRs [shipping "soon"???] with HDMI v.2.1 to protect against obsolescence in the near future when you eventually upgrade OTHER components.....

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post #38 of 74 Old 04-02-2019, 01:16 AM
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Crutchfield has the brand new Onkyo TX-RZ820 for $499.99 with FREE shipping. Crutchfield is an authorized dealer. Add a three year warranty. I said it before and I say it again their Customer Service and Technical Support are only topped by OPPO IMHO by a notch. I have bought from both.
I am just saying.

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post #39 of 74 Old 04-02-2019, 05:58 AM
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Originally Posted by toddman36 View Post
My parents went from a cumby 7.1 Pioneer 1121k to a 7.1 Denon 740, and the sound is way better.

I would imagine that a lot of people would say such things, no matter what new AV receiver they bought, and no matter what they are replacing, because many people don't seem to bother redoing the setup every time they move a speaker (or replace a speaker) or move (or add or remove) any furniture, or make any other change that affects the acoustics of the room. If one does not redo the setup after such things, then it will be set up wrong. Consequently, getting a new unit that one takes the time and trouble to set up should sound better, because one is comparing an improperly set up receiver with one that is (hopefully) properly set up.

Also, if one is using an automatic EQ, different systems work differently and consequently not give the same results. One hopes that the changes in the newer units are improvements.


Because someone might move something and forget or not bother reruning the setup, it is a good idea to run it periodically to make sure things are set up satisfactorily.

God willing, we will prevail in peace and freedom from fear and in true health through the purity and essence of our natural fluids. God bless you all.
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post #40 of 74 Old 04-02-2019, 06:18 AM
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Originally Posted by gajCA View Post
...
No microphone EQ system is "set and forget" as many make errors in not setting all speakers to "small" even though they may physically be on the large side.

"Small" simply means you are using a subwoofer as I do with my tower speakers.
Typically, automatic setups are good at what people are not so good at doing manually, and not so good at things that are easy to do manually. Typically, they get the levels and delays right, if one follows the directions. But they do often get the "small" vs. "large" wrong, and often improperly select the crossover. Fortunately, those things are easy to do if one knows about the performance characteristics of one's speakers. For example, with my speakers, which are rated 50-40kHz +/-3dB, setting them to "small" is obviously right (since I have subwoofers) and selecting 80Hz for the crossover is also an easy choice, as it is well above the minimum frequencies that the speakers can do reasonably well, while still being low enough to not be a problem regarding locating the subwoofers by sound alone. (These settings are also well within the parameters of my subwoofers.) One should remember that one is already on the downward slope of the frequency response of a speaker at its -3dB point (50Hz, in my case) when selecting a crossover point. So it is usually a good idea to select a frequency 20Hz or more above that point (assuming that the subwoofer can go high enough for that; if not, then one should consider either different speakers or a different subwoofer). Of course, if one has the skill and equipment to do so, one can take careful measurements and test various options to get the very best setup one's system can be, but usually good results can be had from following the advice above.

God willing, we will prevail in peace and freedom from fear and in true health through the purity and essence of our natural fluids. God bless you all.
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post #41 of 74 Old 04-02-2019, 08:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Transistorious View Post
Crutchfield has the brand new Onkyo TX-RZ820 for $499.99 with FREE shipping. Crutchfield is an authorized dealer. Add a three year warranty. I said it before and I say it again their Customer Service and Technical Support are only topped by OPPO IMHO by a notch. I have bought from both.
I am just saying.
that looks like a good one on initial inspection. Ill do a deep dive to understand all the jargon differences identified here: https://www.zkelectronics.com/compar...north-america/.
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post #42 of 74 Old 04-02-2019, 09:22 AM
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that looks like a good one on initial inspection. Ill do a deep dive to understand all the jargon differences identified here: https://www.zkelectronics.com/compar...north-america/.
The link provides a fair and a very objective comparison. I ask you why buy a refurbished item with a one year warranty? Does that seller have a competitive Customer Service and a reliable Technical Support? Then a competitor has a three year warranty with a great Customer Service not to mention a very dependable Technical Support. Keep in mind the competitor's item is brand new.

Finally the "word of mouth" sells. It does not matter what I say or you say. So you search the net for customer reviews. Hopefully that will help you to decide.
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post #43 of 74 Old 04-02-2019, 10:33 AM
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Check the Receiver, Amp, Processors Deals thread. You will see people obtaining a good deal on the denon 3500H at Frys. I just bought one to replace a 15 year old B&K Receiver though I haven't hooked it up yet.
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post #44 of 74 Old 04-02-2019, 02:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by holl_ands View Post
FYI: I continue to use my Pioneer VSX-1015 (similar to your VSX-1016, but NO HDMI), driven by OPPO BD-Player via 5.1/7.1 RCA Connectors to AVR's "Multi-CH IN". OPPO (and a very small number of other BD & UD Players) is unusual since it does NOT BLOCK output of the new "Loss-Less" Hi-Rez Digital Audio Formats via HDMI. So I can play ANY and ALL Digital Audio Formats...EXCEPT for the Latest ATMOS formats not supported by my BD-Player...incl. Uncompressed via HDMI or Compressed Dolby Plus (E-AC3) via Optical or HDMI ARC (Audio Reverse Channel).

Unfortunately, your Sony UD-Player does NOT have this MULTI-CH capability....

And you likely already know that VSX-1016's HDMI does NOT Pass-Thru "4K", so you HAVE to connect BD-Player's HDMI #1 direct to UDTV....and Optical to VSX-1016....and HOPE you don't have any noticeable LIP-SYNC Issues....which can be solved in new AVR's by passing both Audio & Video thru it.

VSX-1016 Manual pdf's is dated Mar2006, so it likely implements HDMI v.1.2 [Aug2005]...or earlier...which means HDMI (and hence AVR) does NOT support important new Loss-Less Digital Audio Formats, incl. Dolby True-HD (incl Uncompressed AMOS), DTS-HD and other new Formats...if you care. FWIW: True-HD is noticeable improvement compared to old DD5.1/7.1....and not much difference between DTS-HD and old DTS-5.1/6.1. See fol. HDMI summary to see which new Audio and Video features you are "missing":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI#Versions

BTW: You might want to look at specs for new AVRs [shipping "soon"???] with HDMI v.2.1 to protect against obsolescence in the near future when you eventually upgrade OTHER components.....
This is intriguing and informative! I had to read a couple times to understand...i think. You said since my Bluray player and uhd TV don't have discrete 5.1 and 7.1 audio outputs, then whats was not passed over digital coax and fiber in combination with old panasonic decoding, then I'm SOL. The TV, Sony x900 and Sony BP x700 are new. Ill check their hdmi version but since new i hope they are 2.1. If so, i think your suggesting a new AVR will give most audio formats over HDMI. Hence a push towards new reciever. The wikipedia site was good. It had a table summarizing hdmi version differences.
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post #45 of 74 Old 04-02-2019, 02:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Transistorious View Post
Crutchfield has the brand new Onkyo TX-RZ820 for $499.99 with FREE shipping. Crutchfield is an authorized dealer. Add a three year warranty. I said it before and I say it again their Customer Service and Technical Support are only topped by OPPO IMHO by a notch. I have bought from both.
I am just saying.
How would the room correction software compare? Audessy xt32 vs the Onkyo?
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post #46 of 74 Old 04-02-2019, 04:08 PM
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How would the room correction software compare? Audessy xt32 vs the Onkyo?
Check: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...-audyssey.html
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post #47 of 74 Old 04-02-2019, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Jack D Ripper View Post
I would imagine that a lot of people would say such things, no matter what new AV receiver they bought, and no matter what they are replacing, because many people don't seem to bother redoing the setup every time they move a speaker (or replace a speaker) or move (or add or remove) any furniture, or make any other change that affects the acoustics of the room. If one does not redo the setup after such things, then it will be set up wrong. Consequently, getting a new unit that one takes the time and trouble to set up should sound better, because one is comparing an improperly set up receiver with one that is (hopefully) properly set up.

Also, if one is using an automatic EQ, different systems work differently and consequently not give the same results. One hopes that the changes in the newer units are improvements.


Because someone might move something and forget or not bother reruning the setup, it is a good idea to run it periodically to make sure things are set up satisfactorily.
Not always the case. That Pioneer was junk. One channel failed(RF), then the network card. It was repaired twice and failed again. It was setup properly, using mcaac, whatever pioneer called it.

It was never a great sounding avr, the denon with its auddessey suite puts it to shame.

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post #48 of 74 Old 04-02-2019, 07:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Transistorious View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by prsman View Post
How would the room correction software compare? Audessy xt32 vs the Onkyo?
Check: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...-audyssey.html
Well, from reading that thread it appears audessy is worth the price
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post #49 of 74 Old 04-03-2019, 08:09 AM
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Well, from reading that thread it appears audessy is worth the price
Depends on opinions. In reality, and receiver with correction will be better than your old receiver,
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...y-vs-ypao.html
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post #50 of 74 Old 04-03-2019, 06:00 PM - Thread Starter
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what about HDCP. Will that cause problems watching video over USB?
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post #51 of 74 Old 04-03-2019, 08:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prsman View Post
How would the room correction software compare? Audessy xt32 vs the Onkyo?
Check:
https://www.audioholics.com/av-recei...onkyo-tx-nr787
It has a very good AccuEQ explanation.

Last edited by Transistorious; 04-04-2019 at 02:28 PM.
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post #52 of 74 Old 04-03-2019, 08:31 PM
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what about HDCP. Will that cause problems watching video over USB?
To avoid any problems both the AVR and the BD player must be HDCP compatible.
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post #53 of 74 Old 04-04-2019, 06:02 AM
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I am in the same boat. I have an old Marantz 7005 Pre which I could use for my living room set-up but I would need to buy a 5 channel amp. One the other hand I see newer used Marantz receivers for the same price as the 5ch amp.
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post #54 of 74 Old 04-04-2019, 11:22 AM - Thread Starter
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I am in the same boat. I have an old Marantz 7005 Pre which I could use for my living room set-up but I would need to buy a 5 channel amp. One the other hand I see newer used Marantz receivers for the same price as the 5ch amp.
The SR7005? That looks like a full up 7.1 recevier at 125W per/ch.
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post #55 of 74 Old 04-04-2019, 11:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Before I jump too far I thought Id have a good consistent demo to play and compare.


Can you suggest a 7.1 surround demo that I could use? Preferably in a few different encodings, or what ever is relavent today that are free to download?
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post #56 of 74 Old 04-04-2019, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by prsman View Post
The SR7005? That looks like a full up 7.1 recevier at 125W per/ch.
I would guess that Nima has the Marantz AV7005 tuner/preamp/processor:

https://www.us.marantz.com/us/produc...oductid=av7005

God willing, we will prevail in peace and freedom from fear and in true health through the purity and essence of our natural fluids. God bless you all.
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post #57 of 74 Old 04-04-2019, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Nima View Post
I am in the same boat. I have an old Marantz 7005 Pre which I could use for my living room set-up but I would need to buy a 5 channel amp. One the other hand I see newer used Marantz receivers for the same price as the 5ch amp.
If the preamp has all of the features you require, I would tend to favor going with a power amp. A power amp can be used with a new preamp if you ever upgrade, or with a receiver that has preamp outputs, and, depending on what power amp we are discussing (as well as what particular receiver), it may well be more capable than what would be in the receiver.

You could also go with three stereo power amps, if you want. Or 5 mono power amps, or 3 mono power amps and one stereo amp, etc.

On the other hand, a receiver is more compact and a little easier to hook up. And if your speakers are easy to drive, then you don't need a more capable amplifier than you would get in a receiver. More capability than you ever use does not do you any good. And if the separate power amp is not more capable, then you might as well go with the receiver.

To use a homely old saying, there is more than one way to skin a cat, and you obviously could get the job done either way.

God willing, we will prevail in peace and freedom from fear and in true health through the purity and essence of our natural fluids. God bless you all.
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post #58 of 74 Old 04-04-2019, 01:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Transistorious View Post
Check:
https://www.audioholics.com/av-recei...onkyo-tx-nr787
I has a very good AccuEQ explanation.
I visited Frys today and yes the Denon 3500 was there at 750. So I think they dont post prices on the internet to avoid price matching. Also the store had much more vacant floor space then when I visited in the past. Looks they they are hurting. They use to to have a huge book section. Now just a section 4ft wide with closeout books. 4 aisles dedicated to "As seen on TV". But the Denon was a decent price.
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post #59 of 74 Old 04-04-2019, 02:21 PM
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Before I jump too far I thought Id have a good consistent demo to play and compare.


Can you suggest a 7.1 surround demo that I could use? Preferably in a few different encodings, or what ever is relavent today that are free to download?
Onkyo TX-RZ820 $499.99 at Crutchfield with FREE shipping. Add superb Technical Support and a three year warranty. UPS ground takes it to your home door in three days. A simple phone call or a mouse click. ¡Take your pick!

Last edited by Transistorious; 04-04-2019 at 02:29 PM.
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post #60 of 74 Old 04-04-2019, 04:08 PM
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If you're not overly warranty-biased, your current AVR does have a bum amp channel, and ATMOS isn't a requirement... I'd look for an older higher-end 7.1 AVR with MultEQ XT in the $200-$300 range.

After replacing my fully-functional Onkyo NR905 as part of an overall 4K & 5.1.4 ATMOS upgrade, I honestly regret the cost and effort. I let the NR905 go for ~$200 and it sounded every bit as good as the Marantz SR6011 that replaced it (which was a solid deal at ~$650). I don't feel as bad knowing the NR905 is going into my brother's new HT, but I tried for ~3 months to sell it on Craig's List and Facebook Marketplace and had no takers all the way down to the final $200 listing price.

Something like an NR905/6, SR875/6, SR805/806, or similar Audyssey XT equipped Integra/Denon/Marantz for less than $200 would be a notable upgrade in power, Room EQ, and get the job done for a lot less out of pocket if you can stomach the risk of being well out of warranty.

If it weren't for the lack of HDMI Audio on your current Pioneer, and since it has pre-outs, I'd also say that another upgrade path might be a good 3ch amplifier that you could continue using in the future if/when you do upgrade your AVR. That said, the combination of no HDMI audio and older/less-capable room correction has me thinking the AVR upgrade should probably come first, even if just one of the older/higher-end AVRs like I mentioned above.

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