Receiver option for LCR setup - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 7 Old 04-06-2019, 04:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Receiver option for LCR setup

Hello,

I would like some advice/input on a HT/Music system. At the moment we only have sound from the TV, so basically any upgrade will make a noticeable difference, but as with many things I have a limited budget. I intend on spending between 1500-2000€. It won't be a complete 5.1 system (at least not from the start). The intention is to buy 2.0 or maybe 3.0 and then upgrade to 2.1 or 3.1.

To add a bit of complexity to this equation, we have the ever-present WAF. The WAF has forced me to look at on-wall speakers, and currently I am leaning towards ELAC WS 1465. I've listened to them connected to a Marantz PM7005 (without subwoofer I may add), and I was really impressed with the sound.

Now to my dilemma. We watch movies and like to listen to music. It seems as if I want the best of both worlds I need to buy high-end (SR70xx/SR80xx or similar from other brands), but this is out of my range with my current budget. The intention of the system is not to play as loud as possible, but produce quality sound when listening to music and watching movies. I may not be able to get the best of both worlds right away, but maybe there's a good trade-off I can make so I can upgrade when money/time allows.

So far I have looked at some possible combinations:

1) Buy a Yamaha RX-V685 in the beginning. When money allows upgrade to SR7013/SR8013 or similar?
2) Buy a receiver with pre-amps output, later down the road, buy a PM7005 to drive front speakers.
3) Stretch my budget and buy SR6013? (does have XT32 as well, not sure about 2ch music quality?)

My line of work is software development, and knowing the complexity of software development and the pressure it puts on organizations to produce quality, I am somewhat put off by some of the posts I read about new AV Receivers pumping in so many features and the complaints some users have about the software. This fact alone, makes option (2) very tempting (as I can then change av receiver a bit more frequently without having to worry too much about 2ch sound quality), but maybe I am just paranoid?

I appreciate the feedback!
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post #2 of 7 Old 04-06-2019, 02:12 PM
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Good on-wall speakers will take up a big chunk of your budget, so plan accordingly.

Yammy 685 is good and future proof (as much as possible) and has LR preouts for an amp so you won't need to upgrade in the immediate future. The next step up would be the Denon x3400 which has full preouts. The sr6012 or 6013 are a step up from that and very good for music, but overkill. Well overkill is kinda common here so the rabbit hole awaits you!

Good luck!
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post #3 of 7 Old 04-06-2019, 08:04 PM
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Are you looking to add more channels in the future?

The RX-V685 is a 7.2 AVR. The SR7013 is a 9 channel receiver, but processes 11 channels and be expanded to use them with an external 2 channel amp. (The SR6012/SR6013 are like that as well.) The SR8012 is an 11 channel AVR. (Has an 8013 been released?)

All of these offer a lot more channels than you'd need for a 3.1 system.

The least expensive Denon or Marantz AVR that I know of that includes Audyssey XT32 is the Denon AVR-X3400H, a 2017 model available at closeout pricing from Amazon and elsewhere. The Marantz SR6012 is their lowest-end model with XT32. (The SR5013 has XT.)

Marantz is advertised as more "musical" than Denon, but I don't know from personal experience whether that is true.
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post #4 of 7 Old 04-07-2019, 04:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eriksells916 View Post
Good on-wall speakers will take up a big chunk of your budget, so plan accordingly.

Yammy 685 is good and future proof (as much as possible) and has LR preouts for an amp so you won't need to upgrade in the immediate future. The next step up would be the Denon x3400 which has full preouts. The sr6012 or 6013 are a step up from that and very good for music, but overkill. Well overkill is kinda common here so the rabbit hole awaits you!

Good luck!
Thanks for the feedback!

Yes, the speakers I've looked at are around 400€ each.

I feel like I've been in the rabbit hole and just climbed out of it. The downside with the 685 is that the center channel is 6ohm, while the speakers I am looking at are below (5 nominal). Not sure if this is going to be a problem, but I am also looking at the Marantz 1609. This has preouts for front channels (and subwoofer), meaning I could buy a e.g. PM7005 to run the fronts with.

The only thing I'd miss out on is X32. But buying this entry model at first, might make me enjoy an upgrade model later on?
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post #5 of 7 Old 04-07-2019, 06:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobknavs View Post
Are you looking to add more channels in the future?

The RX-V685 is a 7.2 AVR. The SR7013 is a 9 channel receiver, but processes 11 channels and be expanded to use them with an external 2 channel amp. (The SR6012/SR6013 are like that as well.) The SR8012 is an 11 channel AVR. (Has an 8013 been released?)

All of these offer a lot more channels than you'd need for a 3.1 system.

The least expensive Denon or Marantz AVR that I know of that includes Audyssey XT32 is the Denon AVR-X3400H, a 2017 model available at closeout pricing from Amazon and elsewhere. The Marantz SR6012 is their lowest-end model with XT32. (The SR5013 has XT.)

Marantz is advertised as more "musical" than Denon, but I don't know from personal experience whether that is true.
I might go with 5.1 in the end, but that'll be added many years down the road (famous last words?). It will be a 2.1, 3.1 system for the foreseeable future.

I tried looking for the X3400H in my area (I live in Sweden, so looked at sellers around EU), but couldn't find any on sale. The only one I found was X3500, and the price of that unit was €850. The 1609, which I am currently looking at, is priced around €580 (down almost €200). The major downside with the 1609 is the lowest version of audyssey.

Having XT32 would (I presume) help a lot to fine-tune the speakers, but how useful is it in a 2.1, 3.1 setup?
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post #6 of 7 Old 04-07-2019, 08:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phiwer View Post
... I feel like I've been in the rabbit hole and just climbed out of it. The downside with the 685 is that the center channel is 6ohm, while the speakers I am looking at are below (5 nominal). Not sure if this is going to be a problem, but I am also looking at the Marantz 1609. This has preouts for front channels (and subwoofer), meaning I could buy a e.g. PM7005 to run the fronts with.

The only thing I'd miss out on is X32. But buying this entry model at first, might make me enjoy an upgrade model later on?
You simply need a capable 5- or 7-channel AVR.

Unless you already have a Center speaker that's 6 ohm, there's nothing in the AVR that specifies the impedance of the speaker. Don't measure speakers with an ohmmeter, circuit impedance doesn't work like simple resistance.

WAF be damned, in-wall speakers are a compromise and IMHO will not match a full-range speaker. Either shop for a very good subwoofer to fill in the missing bass from wall speakers, or convince the partner that you can't get good audio fidelity by using shallow, "hidden" speakers. It's possible to get nice-looking conventional bookshelf speakers that aren't very big, and put a good subwoofer behind a potted plant or acoustically transparent screen. If you want to hide the AVR from view a bit, look to Yamahas which are supported by a superb app for iOS and Android, AV Controller. It's software design done right, just what you need, and adapts to the device display size.

As far as your concerns about features, don't compare these products to software development where "scope creep" or "feature-itis" can be introduced by exuberant devs or PMs. Most models increase the features while also increasing powers and connections to satisfy higher tiers of target customers. In your case a Yamaha RX-V385/485 or RX-A680/780 will probably suffice.

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post #7 of 7 Old 04-07-2019, 10:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChromeJob View Post
You simply need a capable 5- or 7-channel AVR.

Unless you already have a Center speaker that's 6 ohm, there's nothing in the AVR that specifies the impedance of the speaker. Don't measure speakers with an ohmmeter, circuit impedance doesn't work like simple resistance.
I realize that this is not the case with speakers (that they vary depending on frequency played), but given that the AV receiver explicitly stated min 6ohm for Center, I thought it would be somewhat wise to follow this advise, but maybe I shouldn't follow it unless playing really loud? Some people in the forum mention that Yamaha's can manage 4ohm speakers in their high-end, and that Marantz/Denon manage these even at lower entry models. I am not sure if there's some truth to that. But this is a point of interest for me in general, to try to understand what the receivers can manage, as this does not seem to be as black and white as it seems. Are there some general parameters to look at when determining if a receiver can manage speakers with lower ohm?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChromeJob View Post
WAF be damned, in-wall speakers are a compromise and IMHO will not match a full-range speaker. Either shop for a very good subwoofer to fill in the missing bass from wall speakers, or convince the partner that you can't get good audio fidelity by using shallow, "hidden" speakers. It's possible to get nice-looking conventional bookshelf speakers that aren't very big, and put a good subwoofer behind a potted plant or acoustically transparent screen. If you want to hide the AVR from view a bit, look to Yamahas which are supported by a superb app for iOS and Android, AV Controller. It's software design done right, just what you need, and adapts to the device display size.
Just to clarify, it's no in-wall, but on-wall speakers. I guess that makes somewhat of a difference, even though none of them can compare to floor-standing speakers. I intend on buying a subwoofer as well, but not immediately, as my budget won't allow that. Still, I will have a look at floor-standing speakers as well. We actually have a couple on the addict, which the spouse even agreed to bring down to the living room. I will have to read some pages from the book Propaganda, to make the final argument for floor-standing speakers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChromeJob View Post
As far as your concerns about features, don't compare these products to software development where "scope creep" or "feature-itis" can be introduced by exuberant devs or PMs. Most models increase the features while also increasing powers and connections to satisfy higher tiers of target customers. In your case a Yamaha RX-V385/485 or RX-A680/780 will probably suffice.
You make some valid points. The rational me tells me that the best bang-for-the-buck is the RX-V685, although the slim-line 1609 would be nice as well (although not as feature packed). The RX-V685 was recommended to me by my local dealer as well, although I haven't listened to the Yamaha sound since the 80s/90s (we had Yamaha stereo in the family).

My comparison with software development wasn't related to scope creep necessarily, but was more aimed at the complexity of software development in general. I work with hardware related software myself (product development), and this kind of development adds more complexity than normal application development does, in the sense that you also have a strong dependency on the hardware that you're working against and the difficulties related to testing.

Many thanks for the input! I'll ask my dealer how long it'll take them to have a 685 available. They are currently sold out.
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