Where are all the HDMI 2.1 AVRs? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 169 Old 04-12-2019, 04:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Where are all the HDMI 2.1 AVRs?

Hi,

As you all know likely know, TVs with support for HDMI 2.1 were presented already at CES 2019, and are becoming available in the shops now.

Despite that we've heard more or less nothing about AVRs with support for HDMI 2.1. Isn't that strange? Will they not be presented until CES 2020 - and released even later? Is there any reason why the AVRs with HDMI 2.1 support should be presented and released later than the TVs?

Please let me know what you think.
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post #2 of 169 Old 04-12-2019, 09:22 PM
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I've been wondering the same thing. AFAICT, Yamaha usually releases their new lines of AVRs about now, and I presume they'll be full HDMI 2.1. But I can't find any details or even rumors. Hopefully some folks in the know will chime in.
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post #3 of 169 Old 04-12-2019, 09:32 PM
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But here they are at CES from this past January, talking about the 2018s (or at least the Aventages) like they are brand new, saying they just introduced AI "this year" and demoing an RX-A3080:

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post #4 of 169 Old 04-13-2019, 01:17 AM
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It actually depends. The HDMI forum doesn't want people to refer to hdmi by revision number since a lot of features are actually available now or with a firmware update. This is especially since a lot of compliance tests don't actually exist yet (especially for things like cables which require specially designed hardware).

Features like eARC, VRR and others can be implemented now with existing hardware. About the only thing that requires new hardware would be 8K support, which require the non existent certification hardware.
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post #5 of 169 Old 04-13-2019, 03:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Worf View Post
It actually depends. The HDMI forum doesn't want people to refer to hdmi by revision number since a lot of features are actually available now or with a firmware update. This is especially since a lot of compliance tests don't actually exist yet (especially for things like cables which require specially designed hardware).

Features like eARC, VRR and others can be implemented now with existing hardware. About the only thing that requires new hardware would be 8K support, which require the non existent certification hardware.
Since there currently are no sources that provide content in a format that requires the bandwidth of HDMI 2.1"Ultra High Speed" (48 Gbps), does it mean the even future AVRs are likely keep using "current" HDMI 2.0b chips and add support for features like eARC, VRR, QMS, QFT, and Dynamic HDR just by a new updated Firmware? In that case, we may not see any AVRs with HDMI 2.1 chips supporting 48 Gbps for several years?

Also, it's a bit unclear to me whether the existing 2.0b HDMI chips can actually support all the new features that are introduced with HDMI 2.1, except those that require increased bandwidth (such as 8K resolution). See the table here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI#Feature_support

And even if HDMI 2.0b chips theoretically can support those features through a Firmware update, is that also the case in reality? Or could it be that some of the new features e.g. require hardware acceleration not present in current HDMI 2.0b chips, so new HDMI 2.0b chips would have to be designed?
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post #6 of 169 Old 04-13-2019, 04:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TraderGregg View Post
I've been wondering the same thing. AFAICT, Yamaha usually releases their new lines of AVRs about now, and I presume they'll be full HDMI 2.1. But I can't find any details or even rumors. Hopefully some folks in the know will chime in.
Yamaha will be continuing the 2018 Aventage models into 2019. Look for HDMI 2.1 models from at least Yamaha, Denon, Marantz starting the summer of 2020.
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post #7 of 169 Old 04-13-2019, 01:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
Yamaha will be continuing the 2018 Aventage models into 2019. Look for HDMI 2.1 models from at least Yamaha, Denon, Marantz starting the summer of 2020.

Based on the discussion above, what should we expect from those HDMI 2.1 models? Is it support for HDMI 2.1"Ultra High Speed" (48 Gbps), and/or support for all the new HDMI 2.1 Features?
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post #8 of 169 Old 04-13-2019, 07:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fjodor2000 View Post
Based on the discussion above, what should we expect from those HDMI 2.1 models? Is it support for HDMI 2.1"Ultra High Speed" (48 Gbps), and/or support for all the new HDMI 2.1 Features?
AFAIK, should be support for all HDMI 2.1 specs as there would be no reason to release it otherwise.
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post #9 of 169 Old 04-14-2019, 03:26 AM
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This is very strange. Normally OEMs from Av receivers are the first ones to incorporate new standards onto their products. This year seems that they were all beaten by LG

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post #10 of 169 Old 04-14-2019, 10:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
AFAIK, should be support for all HDMI 2.1 specs as there would be no reason to release it otherwise.

From what Worf wrote, the AVR manufacturers could just as well keep their current HDMI 2.0b chips and add the new features that comes with HDMI 2.1 through a Firmware update. And since there still are no sources requiring the higher bandwidth that comes with "HDMI 2.1"Ultra High Speed" (48 Gbps), why add support for that?
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post #11 of 169 Old 04-14-2019, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fjodor2000 View Post
From what Worf wrote, the AVR manufacturers could just as well keep their current HDMI 2.0b chips and add the new features that comes with HDMI 2.1 through a Firmware update. And since there still are no sources requiring the higher bandwidth that comes with "HDMI 2.1"Ultra High Speed" (48 Gbps), why add support for that?

IMHO...
A couple of crucial points..
  • Implementing HDMI Rx & Tx within an AVR is far more complex & challenging than having only an HDMI Rx(HD display) or HDMI Tx(media source/tuner box) within a product
  • Having the latest & greatest HDMI is the 1 feature that drives the market but can also obsolete & devalue the brand/channels' inventory
  • Until compatible content became available, so product demand will be less

Just my $0.02...
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post #12 of 169 Old 04-14-2019, 02:08 PM
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Apart from some very specific use cases why not just use a splitter (e.g. HDfury) instead of routing HDMI 2.1 through the AVR? Are there any features of HDMI2.1 that will actually make any benefit for an AVR? eARC is supported on HDMI 2.0 receivers.
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post #13 of 169 Old 04-14-2019, 02:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post
Implementing HDMI Rx & Tx within an AVR is far more complex & challenging than having only an HDMI Rx(HD display) or HDMI Tx(media source/tuner box) within a product
Only slightly more complex, really.

But the issue is that there are no commercially available HDMI 2.1 48 Gbps chips on the market.
LG jumped the gun and developed their own. Which they can, being LG.

With the exception of Sony, which doesn't play in the high-end market anyway, AVR makers are much less-equipped, and so they'll wait till someone sells them a ready HDMI 2.1 solution they just need to upload their logo into.
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post #14 of 169 Old 04-14-2019, 02:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post
IMHO...
A couple of crucial points..
  • Implementing HDMI Rx & Tx within an AVR is far more complex & challenging than having only an HDMI Rx(HD display) or HDMI Tx(media source/tuner box) within a product
  • Having the latest & greatest HDMI is the 1 feature that drives the market but can also obsolete & devalue the brand/channels' inventory
  • Until compatible content became available, so product demand will be less

Just my $0.02...
Hmmm... not sure what you are trying to say with this. Do you mean that it is not possible to add support for the new HDMI 2.1 features to existing HDMI 2.0b chips through a firmware update? Not even for those features that do not depend on the higher bandwidth (48 Gbps)?

If I misinterpreted you, can you please clarify the point you’d like to make? Thanks!
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post #15 of 169 Old 04-14-2019, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by AnalogHD View Post
Only slightly more complex, really.

But the issue is that there are no commercially available HDMI 2.1 48 Gbps chips on the market.
LG jumped the gun and developed their own. Which they can, being LG. With the exception of Sony, which doesn't play in the high-end market anyway, AVR makers are much less-equipped, and so they'll wait till someone sells them a ready HDMI 2.1 solution they just need to upload their logo into.
LG does not develop their own HDMI chips...
As I posted previously an AVR/surround processor requires an HDMI repeater/processor, as it must take the incoming stream extract it, decode it and then re-encode it within crucial timing specs to output to the display. A very different, more complex process then just transmitting an HDMI stream to a source or receiving an HDMI stream like an HD display. Regarding the 48Gbps bandwidth this is nearly 3X that of HDMI 2.0, and requires a far more efficient, precise circuit design something U just can't run down to the nearest semi-conductor distributor and pickup. HDMI 2.1 repeater/processor chips will sample by late 2nd quarter 2019 and limited mass production quantities in 1st quarter 2020. Besides the 1st release of HDMI 2.1 repeater/processor its cost will be 40% higher than the 2.0, this will drop very quickly as the market expands but initially will only be used in the top-end flagship products..

Just my $0.02...
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post #16 of 169 Old 04-15-2019, 01:37 PM - Thread Starter
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The question still remains: Why not just use current HDMI 2.0b chips and add the new HDMI 2.1 Features through a firmware update? Because as I understand it that is possible, except for those features that are bandwidth dependent such as resolution or frame rate increases (e.g. 8K).


Also, why even add support for 48 Gbps bandwidth when there are no sources that require it anyway?
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post #17 of 169 Old 04-15-2019, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fjodor2000 View Post
The question still remains: Why not just use current HDMI 2.0b chips and add the new HDMI 2.1 Features through a firmware update? Because as I understand it that is possible, except for those features that are bandwidth dependent such as resolution or frame rate increases (e.g. 8K).
Because HDMI 2.1 requires more processor resources, not available in HDMI 2.0..
If an update was even feasible, the brands would be hyping this point

Quote:
Also, why even add support for 48 Gbps bandwidth when there are no sources that require it anyway?
Because the CE market runs on hype...
The market expects new technology each season, and the new compatible, supporting content is required. Without the supporting content, updated more capable hardware is meaningless & redundant...

Just my $0.02..
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post #18 of 169 Old 04-15-2019, 02:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by M Code View Post
Because HDMI 2.1 requires more processor resources, not available in HDMI 2.0..
If an update was even feasible, the brands would be hyping this point
This could be done on the application processor, not on the HDMI chip itself. Most HDMI 2.1 features such as VRR, QMS, QFT, ALLM etc does not require much processing power. So the current application processors ought to be able to handle it. It's just a matter of adding firmware that is able to handle the new protocol specs, not processing power.


As for 48 Gbps specific features (mostly resolutions and frame rate), that's another story.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fjodor2000 View Post
The question still remains: Why not just use current HDMI 2.0b chips and add the new HDMI 2.1 Features through a firmware update? Because as I understand it that is possible, except for those features that are bandwidth dependent such as resolution or frame rate increases (e.g. 8K).

It makes it a lot easier to sell another receiver to people who don't like NOT having the latest technology, whether it's of any use to them or not (at least regarding the 48GHz).

Noah

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post #20 of 169 Old 04-16-2019, 04:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fjodor2000 View Post
The question still remains: Why not just use current HDMI 2.0b chips and add the new HDMI 2.1 Features through a firmware update? Because as I understand it that is possible, except for those features that are bandwidth dependent such as resolution or frame rate increases (e.g. 8K).


Also, why even add support for 48 Gbps bandwidth when there are no sources that require it anyway?


Looks like Yamaha is partially doing that. They just announced addition of eARC to 23 receivers from 2017 and 2018.

https://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.ph...&id=1555391465


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post #21 of 169 Old 04-16-2019, 05:35 AM
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As of today, we have LOTS of AVR's with HDMI 2.0b ports that have implemented HDMI 2.1 features:

1. HDMI-eARC
2. HDMI-ALLM

from manufacturers such as:

Denon (most 2017, 2018, 2019 models)
Marantz (most 2017, 2018, 2019 models)
Yamaha (most 2017 and 2018 models)
Onkyo (very few 2018 models)

Right now there is no support for VRR and QMS in current AVR's, for these to work you need to plug the source right in the TV.
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Originally Posted by dfa973 View Post
As of today, we have LOTS of AVR's with HDMI 2.0b ports that have implemented HDMI 2.1 features:

1. HDMI-eARC
2. HDMI-ALLM

from manufacturers such as:

Denon (most 2017, 2018, 2019 models)
Marantz (most 2017, 2018, 2019 models)
Yamaha (most 2017 and 2018 models)
Onkyo (very few 2018 models)

Right now there is no support for VRR and QMS in current AVR's, for these to work you need to plug the source right in the TV.
Currently only the mid/upper Denon/Marantz 2017/2018 models feature eARC; however, not sure if the lower models will receive a firmware update or not.
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Just because there's little to no content that requires 48gbps now, it doesn't mean there won't be any in the future. I wouldn't consider buying a new receiver that doesn't support 48gbps HDMI. Not only for 8K, but for whatever future technology/content someone invents that can take advantage of it.
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post #24 of 169 Old 04-16-2019, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
Currently only the mid/upper Denon/Marantz 2017/2018 models feature eARC;
True, but if you include the HDMI-ALLM feature you can expand the models to "most"...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
however, not sure if the lower models will receive a firmware update or not.
Nothing was ever promised by Denon/Marantz for lower tier 2017/2018 receivers so I doubt eARC will come to those. eARC requires an HDMI port to be capable of things not designed to do at first (using HDMI-ARC and HDMI-HEAC data channels toghether), so a simple firmware update is not enough, an updated HDMI port hardware is also needed.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fjodor2000 View Post
This could be done on the application processor, not on the HDMI chip itself. Most HDMI 2.1 features such as VRR, QMS, QFT, ALLM etc does not require much processing power. So the current application processors ought to be able to handle it. It's just a matter of adding firmware that is able to handle the new protocol specs, not processing power.


As for 48 Gbps specific features (mostly resolutions and frame rate), that's another story.
Another factor not often recognized by the outside is that when making a change in the firmware requires a complete debugging/validation process...
Adding a feature and/or spec revision may appear to be simple, but any program change can cause something else in the firmware to break....
This is not just some simple plug & play situation..

Just my $0.02...
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post #26 of 169 Old 04-17-2019, 08:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by M Code View Post
Another factor not often recognized by the outside is that when making a change in the firmware requires a complete debugging/validation process...
Adding a feature and/or spec revision may appear to be simple, but any program change can cause something else in the firmware to break....
This is not just some simple plug & play situation..

Just my $0.02...

This is no different compared to all other firmware updates that the AVRs manufactures push out. And they often push out quite a few.
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post #27 of 169 Old 04-22-2019, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by dfa973 View Post
As of today, we have LOTS of AVR's with HDMI 2.0b ports that have implemented HDMI 2.1 features:



1. HDMI-eARC

2. HDMI-ALLM



from manufacturers such as:



Denon (most 2017, 2018, 2019 models)

Marantz (most 2017, 2018, 2019 models)

Yamaha (most 2017 and 2018 models)

Onkyo (very few 2018 models)



Right now there is no support for VRR and QMS in current AVR's, for these to work you need to plug the source right in the TV.
What the hell... where in the world do you know what are the specs of 2019 receivers from Denon/Marantz?!?! I don't think that anything was announced from them...

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What the hell... where in the world do you know what are the specs of 2019 receivers from Denon/Marantz?!?! I don't think that anything was announced from them...
We have our own @jdsmoothie that has some insider info about Denon+Marantz+Yamaha receivers and you can read about the 2019 crop here, for example: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...sts-1-8-a.html
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post #29 of 169 Old 05-09-2019, 05:49 AM
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Angry

Quote:
Originally Posted by Worf View Post
It actually depends. The HDMI forum doesn't want people to refer to hdmi by revision number since a lot of features are actually available now or with a firmware update. This is especially since a lot of compliance tests don't actually exist yet (especially for things like cables which require specially designed hardware).

Features like eARC, VRR and others can be implemented now with existing hardware. About the only thing that requires new hardware would be 8K support, which require the non existent certification hardware.
Interesting. I want eARC, VRR, ALLM running at 4k 60 or 120Hz HDR with chroma 4:4:4.

4k 60Hz HDR at 4:4:4 requires more than 18Gb. I'm very disappointed with the HDMI 2.0 standard.

Since the HDMI forum doesn't want to refer to it by revision number do I ask for all of the above? For now I'll just ask for it as "HDMI broken dreams"
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post #30 of 169 Old 05-09-2019, 09:29 AM
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Interesting. I want eARC, VRR, ALLM running at 4k 60 or 120Hz HDR with chroma 4:4:4.

4k 60Hz HDR at 4:4:4 requires more than 18Gb. I'm very disappointed with the HDMI 2.0 standard.

Since the HDMI forum doesn't want to refer to it by revision number do I ask for all of the above? For now I'll just ask for it as "HDMI broken dreams"

Yes at this time you'll have to individually look for all of those features and this may remain the case until the point where basically everything supports those technologies.

Why no QMS (quick media switch) or QFT (quick frame transport) in your list? If you want VRR and ALLM does that mean you're a gamer? QFT is particularly helpful for games as well. QMS is helpful for anyone who switches HDMI sources often. I haven't seen any brands offering QMS or QFT yet. ALLM is the least useful feature HDMI has ever added.
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