"OFFICIAL" 2019 Denon "S-Series" / "X-Series" AVR Owner's Thread + FAQ (Posts 1-8) - Page 15 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #421 of 1022 Old 08-29-2019, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by SoCalGuy-99 View Post
How many internal channels was this driving at -10dB?

Because it's interesting with No Source playing (Zero output) and Eco-Off, the power = 92W yet when playing a Source at -10dB and Eco-Off, the power = 97W which is only a 5% increase from Zero output (No Source playing). Do the A/B amps really get that much more efficient when running near full power or does it really only take an extra 5Ws to go from Zero output to -10db on the AVR's volume scale?
It's not THAT surprising if you know that JD is using higher sensitivity speakers and you understand the logarithmic nature of power demands, and average vs peak levels (I'm assuming these tests were done with normal content playing not brief full scale peak content).

Reference level is set at 85dB for dialogue, avg levels are a bit higher since there is a lot of non dialogue stuff happening in most scenes, so let's call it 90dB. If you're at -10dB volume, then that's ~80dB.

A 90dB sensitive speaker by definition puts out 90dB with ONE watt of power at 1 meter distance. If you're sitting 10-12' away, you may lose ~5dB to distance, so let's guesstimate 85dB at the listening position with ONE watt of power. So even with a relatively active scene (let's say 95dB avg levels at reference = 85dB at -10) you're still using at most 1 watt of power per speaker, and the surrounds are likely using far less. And you're bass managing the most power hungry low frequencies to the subs, so the load on the AVR amps is reduced even further. So even if conservatively the LCR are using 1 watt each, the other 5-8 speakers are likely using a few tenths of a watt each.

When you look at it that way, in a typical sized room with 10-12' listening distance and 90dB+ speakers, unless you listen close to reference level the system is just loafing along barely above idle with the majority of content. Content at 80-90dB SPL sounds pretty loud but it's using barely any power at all.

Where power becomes an issue is PEAKS, especially if you listen louder than -10, and especially for the deep bass where LFE has a 10dB boost and more power is required to drive those long wavelengths. Power demands go up 10x for a 10dB increase. So that 1 watt to produce 85dB becomes 100 watts to produce 105dB -- the 20dB headroom for dynamic peaks translates to 100x the power. And that power must be available for quick bursts so the amp is going from easy idle to full blast over the span of a few milliseconds.

That's why headroom is important, because if the amp is maxed out at 100 watts it's not going to be as "clean" (distortion / harmonics / clipping) as an amp that can sustain a peak burst of 300 watts. A lot of people recommend at least 3dB headroom above peak output, which equates to at least 2x power headroom, so that 100 watts is now more like 200+ watts if you want the amp to not be breaking a sweat when that massive explosion kicks in. A lot of people don't realize their peaks are getting clipped/distorted until they hear a system that can reproduce those peaks cleanly.

So the bottom line is, because of the logarithmic nature of amplifier power, and the 100x power demand for peaks, you generally don't need much power at all until suddenly you *really* need it.

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post #422 of 1022 Old 08-29-2019, 12:32 PM
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Thanks, I knew someone like you would come along and make it crystal clear with knowledge and grace. Although I did say Interesting vs Surprising. And for some insane reason I forgot that of course JD would be using a sub(s) and that would greatly reduce the peak power requirements of the AVR on the most demanding power requirements sections of the content - and of course he would have highly efficient speakers handling the rest of the content.

And thanks for reminding me that due to the logarithmic nature of amplifier power and the 100x power demand for peaks that I don't really need all that much power



until I *REALLY* NEED IT!



.

SCG

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post #423 of 1022 Old 08-29-2019, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
That's why headroom is important, because if the amp is maxed out at 100 watts it's not going to be as "clean" (distortion / harmonics / clipping) as an amp that can sustain a peak burst of 300 watts. A lot of people recommend at least 3dB headroom above peak output, which equates to at least 2x power headroom, so that 100 watts is now more like 200+ watts if you want the amp to not be breaking a sweat when that massive explosion kicks in. A lot of people don't realize their peaks are getting clipped/distorted until they hear a system that can reproduce those peaks cleanly.
I believe you're exactly right! We have a California great room with high vaulted ceilings (open living room, family room, sitting room, kitchen, dining room, hallways) and we like to have action-themed movie marathons from time to time at full reference.

And everyone comments on how "clean" my systems sounds and I believe it's due to the unclipped/undistorted sounds they hear from those peak explosions/sound effects with my high powered 3dB headroom external amps.

AVRs are great for lots of rooms and listening applications but if you want to play it loud in a big room for several hours (think Avenger's Endgame last 2 movies back to back) then having all that extra clean power reserves if only for those instantaneous peak bursts makes all the difference in the world!

And it's not something the average person has heard at home and it can be the difference between "it's too loud, can you turn it down a little" to "wow that sounds great, can you turn it up a little"


It's also useful when someone's favorite modern-day dance song comes on and "can you turn it up Louder?" become the main refrain
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post #424 of 1022 Old 08-30-2019, 02:26 AM
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post #425 of 1022 Old 08-30-2019, 11:06 AM
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"Picture Mode" - should I mess with this on x3600H?

I'm about to purchase the x3600H... but interested in opinions on AVR's "Picture Modes" (pasted at bottom of this post - sorry, wouldn't allow me to include link to documentation page).

I have a nice LG OLED C8 and am very happy with the picture settings.

Am I correct that it's best to just have the AVR leave the Picture alone (and let the LG TV do all video processing), or is there benefit in choosing one of the AVR's Picture Modes?

Thanks!

-----------

Select the desired picture mode according to the video content and your viewing environment.

Standard:
The standard mode suited for most living room viewing environments.

Movie:
A mode suited for watching movies in a dark room such as a theater room.

Vivid:
A mode that makes graphic images for games, etc. brighter and more vivid.

Streaming:
A mode suited for low bit rate video sources.

ISF Day:
A mode suited for watching movies in a bright room during the day.

ISF Night:
A mode suited for watching movies in a dark room at night.

Custom:
Adjusts the picture quality manually.

Off
(Default):
No picture quality adjustment is done with this unit.

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post #426 of 1022 Old 08-30-2019, 12:48 PM
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Question regarding the X3600. Sorry if this seems dumb but I do not know a lot about this stuff and I would appreciate greatly if someone knowledgeable would steer me in the right direction.

I have had a Denon x4000 for years now setup as 9.2 with front height speakers. Very happy with the sound quality and Audessey. All of my speakers are externally amplified with Crown XLS amps except the front height speakers which use the AVR power. I am tired of not have 4k HDMI inputs and recently upgraded my Comcast box which is 4k capable and this is the FINAL STRAW. I have a 4k Roku, Oppo UDP203, Nvidia Shield and now the Xfinity box which are all 4k capable and I have had it trying to work around this receiver. I run most of these units bypassing the AVR and having the TV feed audio to the receiver via optical cable and the sound quality using this method is not exactly great.


Will the x3600 work for me in this setup? I am not interested in setting up Atmos speakers and my wife would kill me anyway if I started hanging speakers from the ceiling. This is a fairly small room with 9 speakers, multiple amps, and 2 large subs.


I read on this thread that the x3600 should be setup 11.2 and the front LR as preamp out correct? Will the x3600 work for my 9.2 setup as it exists now if I set it up this way? Really itching to pull the trigger on this unit.



Thanks in advance for any help or guidance!

Last edited by vlad335; 08-30-2019 at 01:03 PM.
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post #427 of 1022 Old 08-30-2019, 01:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Phillips View Post
I'm about to purchase the x3600H... but interested in opinions on AVR's "Picture Modes" (pasted at bottom of this post - sorry, wouldn't allow me to include link to documentation page).

I have a nice LG OLED C8 and am very happy with the picture settings.

Am I correct that it's best to just have the AVR leave the Picture alone (and let the LG TV do all video processing), or is there benefit in choosing one of the AVR's Picture Modes?

Thanks!

-
Correct. In most cases, the AVR will not provide any better picture than can the TV do on its own. Note also that the <Picture Adjust> settings are disabled when the source is 4k video.
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post #428 of 1022 Old 08-30-2019, 01:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by vlad335 View Post
Question regarding the X3600. Sorry if this seems dumb but I do not know a lot about this stuff and I would appreciate greatly if someone knowledgeable would steer me in the right direction.

I have had a Denon x4000 for years now setup as 9.2 with front height speakers. Very happy with the sound quality and Audessey. All of my speakers are externally amplified with Crown XLS amps except the front height speakers which use the AVR power. I am tired of not have 4k HDMI inputs and recently upgraded my Comcast box which is 4k capable and this is the FINAL STRAW. I have a 4k Roku, Oppo UDP203, Nvidia Shield and now the Xfinity box which are all 4k capable and I have had it trying to work around this receiver. I run most of these units bypassing the AVR and having the TV feed audio to the receiver via optical cable and the sound quality using this method is not exactly great.


Will the x3600 work for me in this setup? I am not interested in setting up Atmos speakers and my wife would kill me anyway if I started hanging speakers from the ceiling. This is a fairly small room with 9 speakers, multiple amps, and 2 large subs.


I read on this thread that the x3600 should be setup 11.2 and the front LR as preamp out correct? Will the x3600 work for my 9.2 setup as it exists now if I set it up this way? Really itching to pull the trigger on this unit.

Thanks in advance for any help or guidance!
First note, you have a 7.2.2 setup not a 9.2 setup as 9.2 would imply using Front Wide speakers (which are not an option on any of these 2019 models). The X3600H is a 9CH model so can be configured for your current 7.2.2 setup without having to add an external amp; however, can also be configured for your current external amps for all but the Front Height speakers. Note also that the Front Height speakers are considered part of an Atmos/DTS:X configuration.
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Last edited by jdsmoothie; 08-30-2019 at 01:36 PM.
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post #429 of 1022 Old 08-30-2019, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
First note, you have a 7.2.2 setup not a 9.2 setup as 9.2 would imply using Front Wide speakers. The X3600H is a 9CH model so can be configured for your current 7.2.2 setup without having to add an external amp; however, can also be configured for your current external amps for all but the Front Height speakers. Note also that the Front Height speakers are considered part of an Atmos/DTS:X configuration.

Oh, OK. Didnt know that. Thank you for the help!



So I should ditch the heights and mount them as wides? What sound format would I select on the receiver with wides then? Apologies for being so ignorant.


I think I am going to order this receiver. I want to upgrade to a PS4 Pro as well.
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post #430 of 1022 Old 08-30-2019, 01:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Oh, OK. Didnt know that. Thank you for the help!



So I should ditch the heights and mount them as wides? What sound format would I select on the receiver with wides then? Apologies for being so ignorant.


I think I am going to order this receiver. I want to upgrade to a PS4 Pro as well.
Nope, didn't say that. In fact, Front Wide speakers are no longer an option beginning with the release of the 2016 models (except on the current "flagship" X8500H).

This is the AMP ASSIGN setting you'll want to use:

Assign Mode: 9.1
Floor
- Layout
: 5ch & SB
Height
– Height Sp
: 2ch
- Layout: Front Height
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post #431 of 1022 Old 08-30-2019, 01:43 PM
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Nope, didn't say that. In fact, Front Wide speakers are no longer an option beginning with the release of the 2016 models (except on the current "flagship" X8500H).

This is the AMP ASSIGN setting you'll want to use:

Assign Mode: 9.1
Floor
- Layout
: 5ch & SB
Height
– Height Sp
: 2ch
- Layout: Front Height

Thank you so much! Ordering this AVR tonight.
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post #432 of 1022 Old 08-30-2019, 02:48 PM
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Wow! Watched a Audioholics video that mentioned Denon power amps clipping with no speakers connected and using preamp outputs. That's crazy! Why would they design AVR's that dont bypass the amps using preamp outputs?


Another question for those in the know... Does my Crown XLS 1502 amps match up voltage wise with the Denon preamp outs on the x3600h? Seems like I am not getting a great deal of power out of these amps like I should with my x4000.
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post #433 of 1022 Old 08-30-2019, 06:04 PM
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I was looking at the 3600, does anyone have amp recommendations to pair with it? I was looking at Monolith 2 or 3 channel. Thanks for any input.
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post #434 of 1022 Old 08-30-2019, 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
- Note that all the 2019 models are still HDMI 2.0b (ie. HDMI 2.1 models won't be released until 2020)
- HDCP 2.3 - all HDMI ports
- eARC - on board (as opposed to the 2017 X3400H/X4400H/X6400H and 2018 X3500H/X4500H/X6500H/X8500H models previously receiving it via a firmware update)(Note an HDMI w/Ethernet cable must be used between the AVR and eARC capable TV)

Doesn't eARC require HDMI 2.1 though or am I mistaken here?
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post #435 of 1022 Old 08-30-2019, 09:49 PM
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Doesn't eARC require HDMI 2.1 though or am I mistaken here?

You are sort of mistaken. HDMI 2.1 certification can be done "piece by piece." eARC is one piece. There are several pieces that can be certified without having the certify the 48Gbps speed. It is best to read this webpage (perhaps twice) for the details.

https://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdmi_2_1/index.aspx
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post #436 of 1022 Old 08-30-2019, 11:37 PM
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Fellas I just purchased a S950H. It's hooked up to a 75 inch TCL 6 series. The screen flickers and has horizontal lines whenever I feed a 4K 60hz 10bit or higher signal through the receiver to the TV. The 4K source is from my HTPC and its GTX 1070. Everything is perfect when I bypass the receiver and plug the HDMI directly into the TV. I've got a new cable coming to connect the outbound feed from the TV to the receiver as my older HDMI cable could be the culprit. But it's seem like the S950H doesn't like TCL 6 series TVs. Any other ideas on what could be going wrong?

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post #437 of 1022 Old 08-30-2019, 11:45 PM
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Originally Posted by AHans View Post
I was looking at the 3600, does anyone have amp recommendations to pair with it? I was looking at Monolith 2 or 3 channel. Thanks for any input.
It's more about pairing your amp with your speakers and your room (and your budget). All the AVR/processor is doing is giving it the signal. The question is how much power do you need / what speakers are you driving / how big is the space you are trying to fill? Cross-referenced with how big is the budget?

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post #438 of 1022 Old 08-31-2019, 12:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Saunupe19111 View Post
Fellas I just purchased a S950H. It's hooked up to a 75 inch TCL 6 series. The screen flickers and has horizontal lines whenever I feed a 4K 60hz 10bit or higher signal through the receiver to the TV. The 4K source is from my HTPC and its GTX 1070. Everything is perfect when I bypass the receiver and plug the HDMI directly into the TV. I've got a new cable coming to connect the outbound feed from the TV to the receiver as my older HDMI cable could be the culprit. But it's seem like the S950H doesn't like TCL 6 series TVs. Any other ideas on what could be going wrong?

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Ensure the <4k Signal Format> (p. 168 Owner's manual) is set to "Enhanced".
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post #439 of 1022 Old 08-31-2019, 07:05 AM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
It's more about pairing your amp with your speakers and your room (and your budget). All the AVR/processor is doing is giving it the signal. The question is how much power do you need / what speakers are you driving / how big is the space you are trying to fill? Cross-referenced with how big is the budget?
You"re right those are better ways at looking at it. Right now finishing a basement and currently figuring out a system but the goal is 5.2.4. I have 4 KEF 160ER Atmos speakers installed already. I am looking to do fronts and rears in KEF Q series. Probably doing the 950s upfront but may just go 750. I have been eyeballing the Denon 3600 but wanted to give some more punch to the front speakers if needed so that is why I was looking to add in an amp. The Monolith 2 or 3 channel was a nice price point and seemed to get good reviews but was open to other suggestions probably around that price maybe slightly more. Thanks.
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post #440 of 1022 Old 08-31-2019, 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
Ensure the <4k Signal Format> (p. 168 Owner's manual) is set to "Enhanced".
It's set to Enhanced. That's the first thing I did.

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post #441 of 1022 Old 08-31-2019, 08:58 AM
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Sorry if this has already been asked, but is this still the case:

"No longer able to apply DTS Neural:X on DD audio"

since this came out 4 days ago:

Dolby Widthdraws Upmixing Restrictions:

https://www.audioholics.com/audio-te...-for-consumers


Edit: Just jumped from my phone to my computer to do a search, and I see someone has already brought this up. What do you think the odds are that the feature will be brought back via firmware?

Last edited by Viche; 08-31-2019 at 09:03 AM.
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post #442 of 1022 Old 08-31-2019, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by vlad335 View Post
Wow! Watched a Audioholics video that mentioned Denon power amps clipping with no speakers connected and using preamp outputs. That's crazy! Why would they design AVR's that dont bypass the amps using preamp outputs?



Another question for those in the know... Does my Crown XLS 1502 amps match up voltage wise with the Denon preamp outs on the x3600h? Seems like I am not getting a great deal of power out of these amps like I should with my x4000.
Hi ,yes the crown xls 1502 will drive your kefs with ease ..I'm running xls power amps and with dual settings of .75 and 1.4 v regular pa sensitivity your gonna have that punch and dynamics

klipsch klf-30 s Vizio p65
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post #443 of 1022 Old 08-31-2019, 08:09 PM
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I was looking at the 3600, does anyone have amp recommendations to pair with it? I was looking at Monolith 2 or 3 channel. Thanks for any input.
If it's a Monolith get at least the 3 channel version as it's 200 dollars less than the 2 channel version and 400 dollars less if factory refurbished . Least that's according to their websites pricing I'm looking at right now. Doesn't make much pricing sense to me but oh well.

Chane A5 towers,Chane A2.4 center,RBH bipole side surrounds, Rythmik LV12R x2,Denon X4300H, Outlaw 5000,Front B speakers: Wharfedale Diamond 10.1 books. https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-rec...d-part-ii.html
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post #444 of 1022 Old 08-31-2019, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by vlad335 View Post
Wow! Watched a Audioholics video that mentioned Denon power amps clipping with no speakers connected and using preamp outputs. That's crazy! Why would they design AVR's that dont bypass the amps using preamp outputs?
The tests were still done with a load on it but the rise in odd order harmonics coming from the internal amps is not audible albeit measureable. For this reason it's not been a priotirity for any AV manufacture including Denon although with Gene publishing these test results that might change.


Quote:
Another question for those in the know... Does my Crown XLS 1502 amps match up voltage wise with the Denon preamp outs on the x3600h? Seems like I am not getting a great deal of power out of these amps like I should with my x4000.
That model unlike the older ones has selectable input sensitivity for use with a receiver so yes it should work fine.
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post #445 of 1022 Old 08-31-2019, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Saunupe19111 View Post
Fellas I just purchased a S950H. It's hooked up to a 75 inch TCL 6 series. The screen flickers and has horizontal lines whenever I feed a 4K 60hz 10bit or higher signal through the receiver to the TV. The 4K source is from my HTPC and its GTX 1070. Everything is perfect when I bypass the receiver and plug the HDMI directly into the TV. I've got a new cable coming to connect the outbound feed from the TV to the receiver as my older HDMI cable could be the culprit. But it's seem like the S950H doesn't like TCL 6 series TVs. Any other ideas on what could be going wrong?

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Certified Premium HDMI cables should be used for lengths at or under 25 feet for higher bandwidth content. At 30 feet or over either hybrid fiber (i.e Ruipro) or active. Removing the receiver from the loop isn't a valid test anymore with 4K HDR at higher framerates. The better test is either reducing cable lengths with the receiver still in the loop or lowering the bandwidth in the source content (framerate/resolution) and seeing if the issue goes away.

Chane A5 towers,Chane A2.4 center,RBH bipole side surrounds, Rythmik LV12R x2,Denon X4300H, Outlaw 5000,Front B speakers: Wharfedale Diamond 10.1 books. https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-rec...d-part-ii.html
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post #446 of 1022 Old 08-31-2019, 11:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Madmax67 View Post
Certified Premium HDMI cables should be used for lengths at or under 25 feet for higher bandwidth content. At 30 feet or over either hybrid fiber (i.e Ruipro) or active. Removing the receiver from the loop isn't a valid test anymore with 4K HDR at higher framerates. The better test is either reducing cable lengths with the receiver still in the loop or lowering the bandwidth in the source content (framerate/resolution) and seeing if the issue goes away.
Yeah it was the cables. I haven't upgraded any of them in years. I got certified cables in from Amazon and switched them out. Everything is working perfectly now.

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post #447 of 1022 Old 09-01-2019, 12:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saunupe19111 View Post
Yeah it was the cables. I haven't upgraded any of them in years. I got certified cables in from Amazon and switched them out. Everything is working perfectly now.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
Good job. I love it when a plan comes together!
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Chane A5 towers,Chane A2.4 center,RBH bipole side surrounds, Rythmik LV12R x2,Denon X4300H, Outlaw 5000,Front B speakers: Wharfedale Diamond 10.1 books. https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-rec...d-part-ii.html
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post #448 of 1022 Old 09-01-2019, 07:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Viche View Post
Sorry if this has already been asked, but is this still the case:

"No longer able to apply DTS Neural:X on DD audio"

since this came out 4 days ago:

Dolby Widthdraws Upmixing Restrictions:

Edit: Just jumped from my phone to my computer to do a search, and I see someone has already brought this up. What do you think the odds are that the feature will be brought back via firmware?
I'm still checking with Denon to learn if possible, but if yes, may take awhile for an update to be pushed out.
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post #449 of 1022 Old 09-01-2019, 04:20 PM
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Hello all! I am very close to purchasing the X3600 but wanted to check in here first before I pulled the trigger. We're starting out with a 5.1.4 setup but might want to upgrade to 7.1.4 in the future. We also really like the idea of having the X3600 drive wireless speakers through the house. Here's the thing: we'll only need a 5.1 setup for a few months as I won't have time until November to install the ceiling speakers. Are there other receivers announced/likely to be announced between now and then that might do the job better than the X3600 for a similar price? I would just wait until November to pick up a new receiver, but it's on sale this weekend so I'd like to save the money if I can.

Thanks for any advice!
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post #450 of 1022 Old 09-01-2019, 04:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by yeah-yeah View Post
Hello all! I am very close to purchasing the X3600 but wanted to check in here first before I pulled the trigger. We're starting out with a 5.1.4 setup but might want to upgrade to 7.1.4 in the future. We also really like the idea of having the X3600 drive wireless speakers through the house. Here's the thing: we'll only need a 5.1 setup for a few months as I won't have time until November to install the ceiling speakers. Are there other receivers announced/likely to be announced between now and then that might do the job better than the X3600 for a similar price? I would just wait until November to pick up a new receiver, but it's on sale this weekend so I'd like to save the money if I can.

Thanks for any advice!
2019 models have already been released so nothing new until summer 2020.

The X3600H cannot "drive" wireless speakers so you'll have to clarify your use case.
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