"OFFICIAL" 2019 Denon "S-Series" / "X-Series" AVR Owner's Thread + FAQ (Posts 1-8) - Page 9 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #241 of 741 Old 07-22-2019, 05:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Bolcar View Post
If the X3600 loses the AL32 Processor, does it get replaced by a lesser version?
No, X3600H does not seem to have any special interpolation processor for upsampling/resampling/upmixing, just as the X1600H/X2600H or lesser models.

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Originally Posted by Chris Bolcar View Post
Or, does the the X3600 have no version of an AL processor at all?
There are a few variants here:
1. Denon has a legacy Alpha interpolation processor (like ALPHA - circa 1990 or AL24 - circa 2000 or AL24 Processing Plus - circa 2007) that is integrated by default on all models without AL32 but is unmentioned because the 16bit-to-24bit interpolation and 192 kHz sampling frequencies are too common to be mentioned...
2. Denon does not actually do any interpolation on any signal on any model without AL32, because:
--- a) most current HD audio formats are already at 24bit (DD+/TrueHD/DTS-HD MA) and it only needs a simple interpolation processor to resample from 16bit-to-24bit, and this leads us to the number 1 variant (an unmentioned legacy "ALPHA" processor) - this kinda contradicts itself with the 2 variant, because in this case Denon does use a unmentioned interpolation processor...;
--- b) any extra processing actually means adding extra/different chips and signal paths, and that costs extra money;

So, what is the truth? Only Denon knows!
If the main DSP is sampling at 24bit it means that the main audio path is 24bit, so it kinda needs an upsampler for any signal lower than 24bit (16bit DD5.1/DTS5.1/analog/etc.). That upsampler is an older ALPHA? Or a generic upsampler? Who knows...

My bet? Denon uses a generic upsampler for all of its non-AL32 models.

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Originally Posted by Chris Bolcar View Post
Does it make a difference in sound to have the AL32?
The main benefits of upsampling are:
- to transform an audio signal to a compatible level with the internal processing circuits - this is more like a requirement more than a benefit...
- suppresses/lowers quantization noise - a natural benefit of any upsampling;
- you can have a lower noise floor - better S/N ratio and dynamic range of the whole system, but not of the original signal (garbage in - garbage out) - no magic things happen in digital circuits!;

The other marketed benefits are very subjective and cannot be judged objectively:
- the waveform is more natural;
- a more pure waveform;
- improves the fidelity of high-resolution stereo PCM sources;
- improves low-level detail and enhances fidelity by upsampling and adaptive filtering techniques;
- provides increased dynamic range and spatial information, bringing out all the nuances with optimum clarity and natural fidelity;
- reproduce the low-level signals with optimum clarity that will bring out all the delicate nuances of the music;
- and so on and on and on...
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post #242 of 741 Old 07-22-2019, 05:28 AM
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"The MAIN button should simply select the MAIN zone just as it did on your X4200W."

Just turns the 2600 On and Off. Never get to the screen like on the 4200 for input selection, volume control, etc.

The iOS app works great. Better than with the 4200. As I'd expect.

At the very bottom there's a drop down selection box and I can select input sources there. Nothing else like volume control, etc. I'm not expecting the 2600 to have everything. It is what it is. Just checking my understanding and if I'm missing something.

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post #243 of 741 Old 07-22-2019, 05:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lagittaja View Post
Anyone found any further information on this i.e. supported codecs? Manual's specification appendix lists SBC but that section is almost the same as 2018 models..
Sadly, since Denon does not mention anything, the standard SBC codec seems to be the only one that is supported, so we can expect the usual low-fidelity and lag that is specific to SBC.
The usual Bluetooth SBC codec lag will kill any real-time TV watching via Bluetooth headphones...
We must wait for the updated firmware to be able to test the actual performance.
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post #244 of 741 Old 07-22-2019, 05:42 AM
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Originally Posted by gsantosoliver View Post
What do we gain with HDCP 2.3?
Most probably better compatibility with future Blu-ray players and streamers, a little futureproofing for the incoming HDMI 2.1 devices that will assault us in the coming years...
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post #245 of 741 Old 07-22-2019, 05:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnson-from-Arizona View Post
At the very bottom there's a drop down selection box and I can select input sources there. Nothing else like volume control, etc. I'm not expecting the 2600 to have everything. It is what it is. Just checking my understanding and if I'm missing something.
Sadly, the web control interface does not have support for volume control. You must use other means (apps, front panel, CEC, etc.) to control the volume.
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post #246 of 741 Old 07-22-2019, 09:56 AM
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since denon x3600H support ALLM. is denon support VRR(variable refresh rate)?
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post #247 of 741 Old 07-22-2019, 09:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prakasa Adnan View Post
since denon x3600H support ALLM. is denon support VRR(variable refresh rate)?
AFAIK, there are currently no receivers on the market that support VRR. Perhaps with the release of the HDMI 2.1 models in 2020/2021.
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post #248 of 741 Old 07-22-2019, 02:39 PM
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Since the 3600 has been upped to 9-channels, do you think that the non-existent 4700 will have 11-channels?

To fix DV and ARC problems that I have, I want to replace my 4300. I could replace it with a 3600, but if the 4700 may have 11-channels (which would be great), I'll wait.

I know that none of us have crystal balls, but what do you think?

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post #249 of 741 Old 07-22-2019, 03:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barbja View Post
Since the 3600 has been upped to 9-channels, do you think that the non-existent 4700 will have 11-channels?

To fix DV and ARC problems that I have, I want to replace my 4300. I could replace it with a 3600, but if the 4700 may have 11-channels (which would be great), I'll wait.

I know that none of us have crystal balls, but what do you think?
Doubtful. The Marantz SR6000 (sister to X3000) and SR7000 (sister to X4000) series have been 9CH for several years now.
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post #250 of 741 Old 07-22-2019, 09:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dfa973 View Post
Sadly, the web control interface does not have support for volume control. You must use other means (apps, front panel, CEC, etc.) to control the volume.
That's kind of shocking. It seems like one of the most important functions to make available in any user interface to a piece of audio equipment...
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post #251 of 741 Old 07-22-2019, 09:55 PM
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Just got AVR-S950. I am missing universal remote from my previous AVR... I use my AVR-S950 for everything, and holding remote from TV just to turn it on/off is inconvenient. I am wondering if remote from AVR-X4500... or AVR-X6500 will work with S950. ( I do not like Logitech activity based system...)
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post #252 of 741 Old 07-23-2019, 08:25 AM
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"That's kind of shocking."

Given the price point not so shocking to me. It is a firmware thing though, just software of course. It may even already be in the code living in the 2600 but just turned off. They don't have a bazillion versions of the firmware/software. Maybe Denon could turn it on.....

The app works great.
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post #253 of 741 Old 07-23-2019, 11:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnson-from-Arizona View Post
"That's kind of shocking."

Given the price point not so shocking to me. It is a firmware thing though, just software of course. It may even already be in the code living in the 2600 but just turned off. They don't have a bazillion versions of the firmware/software. Maybe Denon could turn it on.....

The app works great.
A web control interface for an AVR that can't control that most fundamental of things an AVR does: volume? It's shocking to me at any price point. Skip web control if Volume is so expensive to add to a web control interface...

That notwithstanding, I await arrival of my the AVR-S950H I ordered last night. I was all but ready to click Place Order on an AVR-X2600H, but for some reason I went and revisited its value-add over the AVR-S950H. 5 Watts. Who will ever know? A bunch of Custom Installation features I'll never use. Some differences in the front panel. And $150. Put that $150 back in my pocket, and ordered the AVR-S950H. We'll see how this works out. In 40 years or so of buying HiFi stuff, I've never owned any Denon; though their equipment has been on many short lists. I haven't seen, or heard, one. (I'd have to get on an airplane in order to go somewhere there is a dealer.) After 11 years satisfied with my then top-of-the-line Yamaha RX-V3900, I tried to find a suitable Yamaha. The Denon had more inputs and, one feature that helped seal the deal, a front panel HDMI input. No Yamaha at any price point offers that.
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post #254 of 741 Old 07-24-2019, 12:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick W View Post
That notwithstanding, I await arrival of my the AVR-S950H I ordered last night. I was all but ready to click Place Order on an AVR-X2600H, but for some reason I went and revisited its value-add over the AVR-S950H. 5 Watts. Who will ever know? A bunch of Custom Installation features I'll never use. Some differences in the front panel.
You've just lost the Audyssey MultEQ XT in the X2600H with its better/more than 16 times more filters that can correct much finer details in the response, particularly in the low-frequency range of the speakers. MultEQ XT will give you a flatter response down to lower frequencies than what MultEQ (S950H) can achieve. And MultEQ XT has 8 mic positions instead of the 6 for MultEQ in the S950H.
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post #255 of 741 Old 07-24-2019, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by dfa973 View Post
You've just lost the Audyssey MultEQ XT in the X2600H with its better/more than 16 times more filters that can correct much finer details in the response, particularly in the low-frequency range of the speakers. MultEQ XT will give you a flatter response down to lower frequencies than what MultEQ (S950H) can achieve. And MultEQ XT has 8 mic positions instead of the 6 for MultEQ in the S950H.
I should have noted the step down in Audyssey going from the AVR-X2600H to the AVR-S950H.

If I had the hearing I had 40 years ago, a dedicated home theater environment, a 7.2 setup, and a use case that leaned more toward, say, Hellboy than, say, Internet radio, baseball, and TCM, I'd probably care more about the step-up to XT32. In my open concept space in the tropics--so windows open to the outdoor cacophony 10 months a year and fan(s) running three or four months a year, with a 2.0 system, this is a case, for my tastes and use case, where better is the arch enemy of good enough. Besides, I was able to add $15 to the savings from stepping down from the X2600 to the S950 and treat myself to a new Sony UBP-X700 to replace an 8 year old BDP-S370...
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post #256 of 741 Old 07-24-2019, 08:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick W View Post
If I had the hearing I had 40 years ago, a dedicated home theater environment, a 7.2 setup, and a use case that leaned more toward, say, Hellboy than, say, Internet radio, baseball, and TCM, I'd probably care more about the step-up to XT32.
OK, everyone has their priorities, but X2600H does not have the MultEQ XT32 version, just MultEQ XT.
MultEQ XT32 is even smoother than XT.
The lowest 2019 model that has MultEQ XT32 is the X3600H.
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post #257 of 741 Old 07-24-2019, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
Doubtful. The Marantz SR6000 (sister to X3000) and SR7000 (sister to X4000) series have been 9CH for several years now.
Would I be missing much by getting a 3600 vs a 4500 besides the higher powered amps, 3rd zone, Auro 3D and a 2nd trigger? I wish that Denon's stupid compare tool would work right.

We're borrowing a 1600 right now and its great having an amp that doesn't drop out with ARC, does DV without messing around, and seems to be pretty smart about switching inputs without having to tell it anything. I don't want the 1600 because its noticeably 'not as nice' as the 4xxx line. However, I'm confident that the 3600 will do the stuff that I'm liking about the 1600 that is lacking in my 4300. I'm not so confident about the 4500.

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post #258 of 741 Old 07-24-2019, 01:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barbja View Post
Would I be missing much by getting a 3600 vs a 4500 besides the higher powered amps, 3rd zone, Auro 3D and a 2nd trigger? I wish that Denon's stupid compare tool would work right.

We're borrowing a 1600 right now and its great having an amp that doesn't drop out with ARC, does DV without messing around, and seems to be pretty smart about switching inputs without having to tell it anything. I don't want the 1600 because its noticeably 'not as nice' as the 4xxx line. However, I'm confident that the 3600 will do the stuff that I'm liking about the 1600 that is lacking in my 4300. I'm not so confident about the 4500.
Review post 1 of each of the 2018 and 2019 Denon AVR Owner's threads. Sound quality won't likely be much better with the X4500H and amp difference will be moot; however, only you can decide if any of the additional features are important to you noting the X3600H has at least one feature advantage (ie. Bluetooth output to headphones).

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post #259 of 741 Old 07-25-2019, 03:28 AM
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After reviewing the X3600H US manual, the following features are also missing:
- the "Bass Sync" feature;
- the ability to set the component video output connector to video ZONE2 - the component video output it is limited to the MAIN ZONE;
- the ability to control other devices with the IR remote control unit - using preset codes;
- the "2ch Playback" feature - the ability to set custom calibration for speaker size, SW On/Off, SW Mode, Crossover, FL+FR distances and levels when playing 2ch sources;

The following features were added to the gain list:
- Automatic HDMI source rename - if the HDMI source is providing a custom name;
- OvrC Smart Remote Management compatibility;
- Automatic audio “INPUT MODE” assign - if set to AUTO it automatically detects and plays signal input prioritized in the following order: HDMI > DIGITAL > ANALOG;
- HDMI Multiple Input Assign - The same input connector can be assigned to multiple input sources;
- All Zone Stereo status can now be saved to the Quick Select Plus function to enable simple playback in All Zone Stereo mode with a single touch;

I have updated the gain/loss X3600H vs X4500H comparison post.
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post #260 of 741 Old 07-27-2019, 03:26 AM
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Interesting Audioholics Youtube video chat about the X3600H and using it as a very affordable and high-quality pre-amp because it has fully re-assignable amps and pre-amp bypass for the most important channels, the front channels - features inherited from X4500H.

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post #261 of 741 Old 07-27-2019, 02:34 PM
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After 8.5 years of service, my poor Onkyo HT-R580 receiver from an ancient HT-S5300 box set died. It put in a *lot* of work. I wasn't planning on replacing it for another year or two when we'd be into the next console generation and I'd be looking to finally replace my Panasonic ST60 and feature match everything, but what happens happens.

Also, I finally found out just how awful my TV speakers sound. It was painful.

So, after browsing features, reading posts, and shopping around, I ordered a Denon X1600H this morning! It seemed to fit my needs for what I'd be willing to pay and eARC was pretty important to me going forward.

This should be quite the interesting jump in quality and I'm looking forward to setting it all up when it arrives on Monday.
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post #262 of 741 Old 07-27-2019, 06:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dfa973 View Post
Interesting Audioholics Youtube video chat about the X3600H and using it as a very affordable and high-quality pre-amp because it has fully re-assignable amps and pre-amp bypass for the most important channels, the front channels - features inherited from X4500H.
This would only be the case when powering a full 11 channel setup. When powering 9 and externally amplifying the mains there's no amp assignment thus no disconnection for the internal amp's. Nice feature though.
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post #263 of 741 Old 07-27-2019, 11:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dfa973 View Post
Interesting Audioholics Youtube video chat about the X3600H and using it as a very affordable and high-quality pre-amp because it has fully re-assignable amps and pre-amp bypass for the most important channels, the front channels - features inherited from X4500H.
No model other than the current (and past) "flagship" Denon AVRs have "fully re-assignable amps."
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post #264 of 741 Old 07-27-2019, 11:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Madmax67 View Post
This would only be the case when powering a full 11 channel setup.
This is not how I did understand the situation! The Front L+R amps re-assignment is useful in both situations!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Madmax67 View Post
When powering 9 and externally amplifying the mains there's no amp assignment thus no disconnection for the internal amp's.
But switching the Front L+R amps to serve one of the Height pairs means that those 2 amps (Front L+R) are disconnected from the Front L+R pre-out connectors and that disconnection is the whole point of discussion, allowing the Front L+R audio-path from source to the pre-out connectors to become free of the (Front L+R) amps interferences - that introduces distortions and clipping - as the guys from Audioholics explained.

This re-assignment means that even if you do not use any the internal amps of the X3600H - using it as a full 11.1 pre-amp - the Front L+R channels are free from the amp interferences, distortions, and clipping. The rest of the channels are indeed still connected to their amps, but the fronts are disconnected!

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Nice feature though.
Indeed!
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post #265 of 741 Old 07-27-2019, 11:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by dfa973 View Post
This is not how I did understand the situation! The Front L+R amps re-assignment is useful in both situations!

But switching the Front L+R amps to serve one of the Height pairs means that those 2 amps (Front L+R) are disconnected from the Front L+R pre-out connectors and that disconnection is the whole point of discussion, allowing the Front L+R audio-path from source to the pre-out connectors to become free of the (Front L+R) amps interferences - that introduces distortions and clipping - as the guys from Audioholics explained.

This re-assignment means that even if you do not use any the internal amps of the X3600H - using it as a full 11.1 pre-amp - the Front L+R channels are free from the amp interferences, distortions, and clipping. The rest of the channels are indeed still connected to their amps, but the fronts are disconnected!

Indeed!
Not the case for either the X4500H nor the X3600H.
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post #266 of 741 Old 07-28-2019, 12:01 AM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
No model other than the current (and past) "flagship" Denon AVRs have "fully re-assignable amps."
Yeah, that was a mistake made by Audioholics in their presentation document (see the screenshot) and carried by me...
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post #267 of 741 Old 07-28-2019, 12:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
Not the case for either the X4500H nor the X3600H.
So, you say that there is no switching of the amps, and all the amps are continuously connected to their respective pre-out connectors?
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post #268 of 741 Old 07-28-2019, 12:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dfa973 View Post
This is not how I did understand the situation! The Front L+R amps re-assignment is useful in both situations!







But switching the Front L+R amps to serve one of the Height pairs means that those 2 amps (Front L+R) are disconnected from the Front L+R pre-out connectors and that disconnection is the whole point of discussion, allowing the Front L+R audio-path from source to the pre-out connectors to become free of the (Front L+R) amps interferences - that introduces distortions and clipping - as the guys from Audioholics explained.



This re-assignment means that even if you do not use any the internal amps of the X3600H - using it as a full 11.1 pre-amp - the Front L+R channels are free from the amp interferences, distortions, and clipping. The rest of the channels are indeed still connected to their amps, but the fronts are disconnected!

There is no amp reassignment available with less than an 11 channel setup. It disappears in the settings when you toggle back and forth between 9 and 11 under assign mode. With no amp reassignment there is no disconnection. You can only reassign the L&R to power the height 2 speakers but there was no clipping with any of the Denon receivers without this setting (only a higher noise floor for the test frequencies harmonics.) They didn't clip until 4 Volts RMS. This setting has also been around since at least my 2016 4300 and 2015 6200 I believe but they're acting like it's something brand new with the 3600.

Chane A5 towers,Chane A2.4 center,RBH bipole side surrounds, Rythmik LV12R x2,Denon X4300H, Outlaw 5000,Front B speakers: Wharfedale Diamond 10.1 books. https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-rec...d-part-ii.html
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post #269 of 741 Old 07-28-2019, 12:36 AM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
Correct.
How does that work when you use the L&R amps to power the Height 2's in an 11 channel setup? Amps can't be connected to 2 different channels at the same time can they? They really need to get the receiver in hand and bench test the amp in both modes and check the noise floor instead of just assuming it's doing something different in one mode over another. Do the measurements first then talk. Not the other way around.

Chane A5 towers,Chane A2.4 center,RBH bipole side surrounds, Rythmik LV12R x2,Denon X4300H, Outlaw 5000,Front B speakers: Wharfedale Diamond 10.1 books. https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-rec...d-part-ii.html
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post #270 of 741 Old 07-28-2019, 04:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Madmax67 View Post
How does that work when you use the L&R amps to power the Height 2's in an 11 channel setup? Amps can't be connected to 2 different channels at the same time can they? They really need to get the receiver in hand and bench test the amp in both modes and check the noise floor instead of just assuming it's doing something different in one mode over another. Do the measurements first then talk. Not the other way around.
No, rather I was focusing on the "fully re-assignable" note which is not the case for either the X3600H nor the X4500H but is true for the X8500H. The amps that power the Front L/R speakers must be switched to the Height speaker posts; however, I don't buy the "interference" discussion.
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