Sound United Enters Agreement to Acquire Onkyo Home Audio - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 153 Old 05-15-2019, 07:49 AM
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So I guess I should buy a Denon or Marantz receiver now before prices go up right? I'm looking for one now to upgrade from my 2016 Yamaha.
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post #32 of 153 Old 05-15-2019, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by JayNTee View Post
Emotiva, Trinnov and Monoprice as well? I'm sure there are a few others.
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post #33 of 153 Old 05-15-2019, 07:59 AM
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Originally Posted by dfa973 View Post
Onkyo and Pioneer were struggling for a couple of years, a surprising move from SU, but maybe not that unexpected...

Is possible that Onkyo and Pioneer will become second-tier brands besides Marantz and Denon, cheaper, with more discounts all year round... or maybe not, things are complicated with 4 brands for the same product...
That's probably a good bet...Denon and Marantz flagships with Onkyo and Pioneer mid range.

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Originally Posted by dfa973 View Post
So now we have receivers from:

1. Sound United (Marantz, Denon, soon Onkyo, Pioneer, Integra)
2. Yamaha
3. Anthem
4. Arcam
5. Cambridge Audio
6. NAD
7. Rotel
8. Sony (late added)
Sound United will have the mass market competing with Yamaha and Sony....leaving the boutiques to compete.
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post #34 of 153 Old 05-15-2019, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Canuck31 View Post
So I guess I should buy a Denon or Marantz receiver now before prices go up right? I'm looking for one now to upgrade from my 2016 Yamaha.
If the deal goes through, it will likely take years for prices to go up, if they do at all. I think you have plenty of time.
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post #35 of 153 Old 05-15-2019, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post
If the deal goes through, it will likely take years for prices to go up, if they do at all. I think you have plenty of time.
Well lets hope so. Because for some crazy reason I still cannot decide on which AV receiver to purchase.
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post #36 of 153 Old 05-15-2019, 08:16 AM
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Totally random, but I just realized I went to high school with the CEO of Sound United. Small world.
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post #37 of 153 Old 05-15-2019, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Pitbull0669 View Post
They are deff cornering the market with 80% of the brands. At least those new brands HOPE will get stepped up to some of the others
Number of brands is irrelevant, it's sales that matter. And they definitely wouldn't have 80% of sales.

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post #38 of 153 Old 05-15-2019, 08:26 AM
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Isn't Arcam owned by Samsung as part of the Harman Audio group? Along with Lexicon, and JBL although those two are even more niche with diminishing returns.
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post #39 of 153 Old 05-15-2019, 08:39 AM
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Just what the world needs, another mega-corp ...

It's a VIRTUAL channel unless stated otherwise.
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post #40 of 153 Old 05-15-2019, 09:11 AM
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I like to buy receiver whit 15 TRUE CHANELS WHIT NO PROBLEM,for now émotiva whit rmc-1 but mutch problem and take many time for fix perfectly and we have monolith http-1 but is comming propably september and I dont know how is working whit no problem but many people dont buy this processor(monolith http-1) because not have Inside osd ,only whit phone and pc.


MYBE onkyo or pioneer or intégra whit new receiver or processor comming whit 15 discretd chanels.

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post #41 of 153 Old 05-15-2019, 09:12 AM
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It's important to remember that for AVRs most of the smaller companies are buying system on chip packages from third party vendors for the HDMI/HDCP/video processing. At this point I'd say only Sound United and maybe Yamaha will be producing their own stuff from scratch. Sony's big enough but they're obviously not making receivers a priority right now. I think this was inevitable given the way the market is going towards soundbars and other integrated solutions but honestly its their own fault for sticking to the strictly tiered by feature model with only the big huge four figure flagships having actual installation flexibility [pre outs, better routing, 3 zones, etc.]. Receiver manufacturers refused to change with the times and people stopped buying them.
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post #42 of 153 Old 05-15-2019, 09:32 AM
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The home theater market is becoming less exciting. A homogeneous market is no good for us. No incentive for those AVR companies to strive to make something better than the competition with nobody to compete with.

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post #43 of 153 Old 05-15-2019, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaychatbonneau View Post
That came out of left field. Why do you think this has anything to do with tariffs? Why do you think this merger will lead to lower prices? Let's stipulate that this merger is a tariff avoidance scheme. That is perfectly moral and legal. Let's stipulate that this merger will make AVRs much cheaper. Why do you have a problem with that?

Well since you put it that way, then maybe it's a good thing that one company holds so many companies under its belt. Although it does remind me of a famous board game. But that was about properties and utilities, not electronics. So this is different.
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post #44 of 153 Old 05-15-2019, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by dfa973 View Post
Oops

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post #45 of 153 Old 05-15-2019, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Madmax67 View Post
Never know. Might be farewell AccuEQ and MCACC.
I think Onkyo went to AccuEQ to save on Audyssey licensing costs.

MCACC is ... maybe not that big of a loss, according to my experience. We compared it to the several other Auto EQ's in 2014, and it actually made the pro-audio speakers we used at the time sound blown, or at least super harsh. (subjective opinion)...

The only buddy I have that owned Pioneer didn't use his MCACC - @carp

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...nsas-city.html
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post #46 of 153 Old 05-15-2019, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
I do not think you can be a monopoly when your competitors include Sony, Yamaha, and Harman, not to mention a number of smaller manufacturers.

Ahhh yes it can, especially when you average consumers are NOT the people in this forum. It doesn't seem like a monopoly to us enthusiast, because we know the small mom and pop brands, but to regular people this is definitely looking monopolistic.
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post #47 of 153 Old 05-15-2019, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Snowmanick View Post
Totally random, but I just realized I went to high school with the CEO of Sound United. Small world.
Then, report back with the skinny.
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post #48 of 153 Old 05-15-2019, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
I think Onkyo went to AccuEQ to save on Audyssey licensing costs.

MCACC is ... maybe not that big of a loss, according to my experience. We compared it to the several other Auto EQ's in 2014, and it actually made the pro-audio speakers we used at the time sound blown, or at least super harsh. (subjective opinion)...

The only buddy I have that owned Pioneer didn't use his MCACC - @carp

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...nsas-city.html
MCACC was poor in my experience with it. I would promptly turn it off after running it. I had two Pioneer Elite units prior to moving to Denon. Audyssey XT32 is MUCH better.
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post #49 of 153 Old 05-15-2019, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by fizban16 View Post
Isn't Arcam owned by Samsung as part of the Harman Audio group? Along with Lexicon, and JBL although those two are even more niche with diminishing returns.
Correcto...
Arcam was owned by Jam Industries, the Canadian distributor for Harman and they sold their controlling interest to Harman last year. And previously 2 years back, Samsung bought Harman International for $8 billion cash and merged it into their organization.

Just my $0.02...
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post #50 of 153 Old 05-15-2019, 12:20 PM
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Had an Integra that I generally liked but made popping sounds.

I've had two Marantz receivers crap out on me in relatively short time. Done with them.

I've only owned a low-end Denon for a family room TV.

Pioneer equipment lags behind.

Never owned Onkyo, but it seemed like a very good low-cost option to new formats.

Much prefer ARC to Audyssey, and Dirac is better, too.

Let's just say that Sound United won't ever have a place in my gear probably anyway.
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post #51 of 153 Old 05-15-2019, 12:53 PM
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Lots of shake-ups in the A/V world this week...


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post #52 of 153 Old 05-15-2019, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
MCACC was poor in my experience with it. I would promptly turn it off after running it. I had two Pioneer Elite units prior to moving to Denon. Audyssey XT32 is MUCH better.
I disagree in my opinion I purchased 3 top of the line units from Denon, Marantz and Pioneer (to compare and see which one I liked better) and found that I did not like the results from both the Denon and the Marantz, especially after running the Audyssey setup multiple times. It was like all the dynamic range and soundstage went out the window.

The Pioneer MCACC took me one time to set up and I thought it sounded great. But it could also be that im used to the Pioneer Elite sound.

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post #53 of 153 Old 05-15-2019, 01:14 PM
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This news doesn't surprise me at all. It pains me to say it but components like receivers are becoming more rare over time and the market will consolidate and get smaller. Your average consumer is more educated, at least in the way that many more realize that their TV's speakers are garbage, but that just means they are mostly buying sound-bars. And honestly many newer bars are pretty good. They will never be enough for us audio/HTphiles but for Jon Q Public, it is. Personally you’d have to pry my giant subwoofer and 7.1 4k Denon system from my cold dead hands.
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post #54 of 153 Old 05-15-2019, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erod View Post
Had an Integra that I generally liked but made popping sounds.

I've had two Marantz receivers crap out on me in relatively short time. Done with them.

I've only owned a low-end Denon for a family room TV.

Pioneer equipment lags behind.

Never owned Onkyo, but it seemed like a very good low-cost option to new formats.

Much prefer ARC to Audyssey, and Dirac is better, too.

Let's just say that Sound United won't ever have a place in my gear probably anyway.

I had an expensive (for the brand) JVC when I started HT. It was a sold workhorse and never had an issue. Was awfully pretty too, much prettier than the bland black boxes out there. Sadly it quickly fell behind feature wise.

Then a Pioneer. Tons of features and power. But little quibbles drove me mad. Lights would not work, popping noises, etc.

I then demo'd an Onkyo. May as well have stuck a heat lamp in my cabinet. You could fry eggs off the thing. Adios Onkyo.

Finally Denon. 6 years of no issues on original Denon. Moved that to family room and went higher end Denon on HT room. 4 years, no issues. Will definitely look at another Denon when the time comes to get some new feature I do not have today.
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post #55 of 153 Old 05-15-2019, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdeyoung View Post
The Pioneer MCACC took me one time to set up and I thought it sounded great. But it could also be that im used to the Pioneer Elite sound.
There are three flavors of MCACC:

1. MCACC
2. MCACC Advanced
3. MCACC Pro

There are also multiple flavors of Audyssey... You can un-match them pretty quickly...
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post #56 of 153 Old 05-15-2019, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by JudgeSmails View Post
This news doesn't surprise me at all. It pains me to say it but components like receivers are becoming more rare over time and the market will consolidate and get smaller. Your average consumer is more educated, at least in the way that many more realize that their TV's speakers are garbage, but that just means they are mostly buying sound-bars. And honestly many newer bars are pretty good. They will never be enough for us audio/HTphiles but for Jon Q Public, it is. Personally you’d have to pry my giant subwoofer and 7.1 4k Denon system from my cold dead hands.
And to date no major manufacturer has made a soundbar that could be integrated into a larger system later, just like with many HTIBs with their weird 3 ohm speakers, proprietary connectors and passive subs there's no upgrade path from a soundbar to a "real" system and that's put a lot of people off of upgrading IMO.
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post #57 of 153 Old 05-15-2019, 01:52 PM
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Soundbars integrate as part of the multi-room world (HEOS / MusicCast) allow users to run an AVR in the main room but share sources between that room and the soundbars.


I will put it this way...
The market is NOT in 5.1 systems and theatre rooms, it's in multi-room systems that are easy to use.
AVR's are too complicated for the vast majority of users... heck, let's face it - they're too complicated for a majority of the users on this forum. How often do you see mistakes made because the amps are just too complicated? Many, many times - daily!


Pioneer / Onkyo have been MIA in the soundbar market, leveraging some of the Polk and Denon units (Denon and Polk already share a common model) and re-badging them + including HEOS will no doubt be one of the first moves IF the acquisition goes ahead.
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post #58 of 153 Old 05-15-2019, 02:05 PM
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From the HTF Market Intelligence Consulting Pvt. Ltd. report on Global AV Receiver Market 2018 study:

Quote:
At present, the market is developing its presence and some of the key players from the complete study are Sony, Yamaha, Onkyo (Pioneer), D+M Group(Sound United), LG Electronics, Harman Kardon, Inkel Corporation, NAD, Rotel, Anthem AV Solutions Limited, Pyle, Cambridge Audio & Arcam etc.

The global AV Receiver market is valued at 2140 million US$ in 2017 and will reach 2200 million US$ by the end of 2025, growing at a CAGR of 0.4% during 2018-2025.

This report studies the AV Receiver market, An audio/video receiver (AV Receiver or AVR) is a consumer electronics unit used in a home theater. Its primary purpose is to receive audio and video signals from a number of sources and process them to drive loudspeakers and a display.

Europe is the largest consumption of AV Receiver, with a sales market share nearly 25.91% in 2016.
The second place is North America; following Europe with the sales market share over 24.06% in 2016.
China is another important consumption market of AV Receiver.

AV Receiver used in home theater.
AV Receiver mainly has three kinds, including 5.1 &5.2 Sound Channels, 7.1 &7.2 Sound Channels and 9.2 Sound Channels etc.
The production market share of 5.1 &5.2 Sound Channels AV Receiver is 35.11% in 2016.
https://www.openpr.com/news/1145508/...ectronics.html

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post #59 of 153 Old 05-15-2019, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by rdeyoung View Post
I disagree in my opinion I purchased 3 top of the line units from Denon, Marantz and Pioneer (to compare and see which one I liked better) and found that I did not like the results from both the Denon and the Marantz, especially after running the Audyssey setup multiple times. It was like all the dynamic range and soundstage went out the window.

The Pioneer MCACC took me one time to set up and I thought it sounded great. But it could also be that im used to the Pioneer Elite sound.
Denon (and likely Marantz - since they have basically become the same thing over the years, though I can't say for absolute certain) - may have automatically, or accidentally turned on such nonsense as Dynamic Volume, Late Night mode, LFC, etc - all loudness leveling functions that inexplicably keep turning on, with my Denon X7200WA and my Denon X4520CI before that. I run Audyssey fairly regularly because I'm also futzing with my room, changing speakers, or trying new things - and I've determined those things turn on in association with running audyssey, I THINK! Anyway - us enthusiasts with dedicated spaces want those settings OFF! And if you had any of that volume leveling stuff on - that explains your thoughts.

No EQ to No EQ --- with like distances (delays), with objectively measured/verified SPL levels set for each channel with a third party mic, the Denon/Maratanz and Pioneer receivers SHOULD sound no different to Human ears, and measure no different to equipment.

Enter EQ functions, speaker placements, rooms, treatments, mic placements/count of measuring positions, mic manufacturing variances, etc and years between testing an NOBODY can compare this unit they USED to have compared to this unit they have now.

Even in a controlled study/experiment where the ONLY variable was the AVR and associated bundled house brand Mic that came with the AVR -- when you run AutoEQ you can get absolutely ridiculous variances on what reference truly is (20dB ridiculous at the same supposed volume setting) --- which was the outcome of our carefully crafted AVR Auto EQ testing day. Sickening really.

We've been thinking about repeating this process and seeing if improvements have been made in the AutoEQ realm in the last 4-5 years. I've risked going off topic, but bringing it back squarely to topic........
There is no "reference" created by these various AutoEQ systems...so, maybe unification of the majority of consumer brand AutoEQ into "one type" might be a positive outcome for the hobbiest, in that perhaps we could potentially actually see more of a like "reference" shared between our experiences.

Post 199 for full read -
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...l#post28900602

quip excerpt here:

Quote:
The Madness
So what's the deal? Why was it madness?
Well - here are the post calibration frequency responses from each entry. No funny business, just absurdity. The helpers and I set the mic in the same standardized positions for each system (unless specific places were actually required, IE Anthem, DIRAC, Yamaha) and the starting position for the initial calibration was the exact same spot for ever processor. Stitch1 loaned a drum kit with a bunch of high hat stands (used as mic stands) - to ensure our mic capture positions weren't different from processor to processor. In theory, after calibration each processor should be close to the same SPL at least, if not generally reasonably close to a flatter frequency plot - RIGHT?? I mean that's the point of these systems -- RIGHT? To get the AVRs to a reference volume and try to flatten frequency response while doing so - so that each user's system in different rooms and different speaker setups has a similar audio experience?!?!?!

Well, with eight different systems here is what was captured by omnimic for each as post calibration results. We followed instructions to let each auto processor optimize the room. The ONLY change we allowed post calibration was setting speakers to small and crossover to 80hz when the processor/AVR allowed. To capture the post calibration frequency response plots shown here I simply turned each AVR to -12dB on the main volume knob and played track 2 of the omnimic disk from the HTPC to the processor. The results are ridiculous. But that is the tested state of variance in these processors.


ahblaza, rdeyoung, pault1 and 1 others like this.

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Last edited by Archaea; 05-15-2019 at 02:39 PM.
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post #60 of 153 Old 05-15-2019, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dfa973 View Post
From the HTF Market Intelligence Consulting Pvt. Ltd. report on Global AV Receiver Market 2018 study:



https://www.openpr.com/news/1145508/...ectronics.html
Thanks for the info...
Unfortunately its data contradicts the data from (2) major North American AVR market studies. The Euro AVR market is growing while the North American market is more mature, but still for $ & units sold North America is slightly ahead of the Euro market. If U expand the Euro market to include other countries including Russia & India then YES it is larger than the North America market. Also the mentioned brand Inkel(Sherwood) mostly builds OEM for Denon & Marantz very minimal sales as Sherwood while Harman/Kardon, Pyle, Rotel, LG do not build AVRs... Also I would question the input data for each market report, in North America the data is gathered through major AVR dealers and their respective sales whereas the Euro study is from consumers. Note that market data reported by consumers tend to be less reliable...

Just my $0.02...
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