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-   -   Which receiver brand is best as processor pre-amp only? (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-receivers-amps-processors/3067754-receiver-brand-best-processor-pre-amp-only.html)

Landmonster 05-15-2019 06:01 PM

Which receiver brand is best as processor pre-amp only?
 
Hi guys,


This is a theoretical question.


Let's say we only care about using an AVR for the home theater processing power, and rely on powerful dedicated amps to power most of the speakers in our theater. Let's say we use something like Emotiva dedicated amps to power at least the front 2 or 3 main speakers in a theater. The receiver is only powering surrounds, if anything at all.



In this scenario, which brand of AVR brand would reign supreme? I'm asking here, to basically disregard the AVR stated wattage and amp quality, and focus on it's surround processing and pre-amp characteristics. Of course, this would necessitate buying a new AVR, since formats change all the time.





Any experts with experience in this care to chime in? Rank the brands, as best you can, as pre-amps

  • Denon X series?
  • Yamaha Aventage?
  • Marantz?
  • Pioneer/Onkyo?
  • Something else I'm not considering?

Madmax67 05-15-2019 06:38 PM

The ones capable of driving an external power amp to full power via their pre amp ouputs so Denon/Marantz and the higher end Yamaha's (A2080/3080).

Landmonster 05-15-2019 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madmax67 (Post 58054120)
The ones capable of driving an external power amp to full power via their pre amp ouputs so Denon/Marantz and the higher end Yamaha's (A2080/3080).


What about the Yamaha RX-A1080? or Denon X4500h

Shadowed 05-15-2019 09:15 PM


Madmax67 05-15-2019 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowed (Post 58054616)

Better room correction suite in ARC for sure but Anthem receivers have limited HDMI inputs and lack a few other features most AVR's have. You're paying the premium for the room correction and the power supply but if you're offloading the amps the latter isn't as important. Dont get me wrong I like Anthem receivers. They're just a bit pricey for my blood.

Madmax67 05-15-2019 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Landmonster (Post 58054552)
What about the Yamaha RX-A1080? or Denon X4500h

The A1080 I'm not as sure about. The lower Yamaha models only hit around 1.5Vrms on their pre amp outputs in bench tests. Their higher models I mentioned hit 2Vrms as does most all Denon and Marantz models. The X4500 can expand from 9 to 11 channels with a 2 channel stereo amp powering either the front L&R speakers or the Height 2 speakers. Any other externally powered channels is also still an option but not required to handle the 11 channel limit. Overall a good receiver for the money in DAC's, power supply, room correction suite (Audyssey XT32 with SubEQ HT) and audio codecs (Auro 3D std.in this model with a 5.1.4 minimum setup.) I personally own the older X4300H myself and love it but I like Yamaha Aventage receivers as well. I also externally power my 5 base channels with an outboard power amp. Works fine.

Stephen Hopkins 05-15-2019 10:18 PM

I'd think a refurbished Marantz SR6012 is going to be the least expensive option with MultEQ 32, or the Onkyo RZ730 without it.

The price gap between the SR601x line and Denon X4x00 line used to be higher, but it's only around $50 these days, so I'd probably go for the Denon if only for the full-size display instead of the Marantz port-hole.

Madmax67 05-15-2019 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen Hopkins (Post 58054756)
I'd think a refurbished Marantz SR6012 is going to be the least expensive option with MultEQ 32, or the Onkyo RZ730 without it.



The price gap between the SR601x line and Denon X4x00 line used to be higher, but it's only around $50 these days, so I'd probably go for the Denon if only for the full-size display instead of the Marantz port-hole.

Also the SR601x is based on the X3*00 Denon's not the X4*00.

drh3b 05-16-2019 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Landmonster (Post 58053962)
Hi guys,


This is a theoretical question.


Let's say we only care about using an AVR for the home theater processing power, and rely on powerful dedicated amps to power most of the speakers in our theater. Let's say we use something like Emotiva dedicated amps to power at least the front 2 or 3 main speakers in a theater. The receiver is only powering surrounds, if anything at all.



In this scenario, which brand of AVR brand would reign supreme? I'm asking here, to basically disregard the AVR stated wattage and amp quality, and focus on it's surround processing and pre-amp characteristics. Of course, this would necessitate buying a new AVR, since formats change all the time.





Any experts with experience in this care to chime in? Rank the brands, as best you can, as pre-amps

  • Denon X series?
  • Yamaha Aventage?
  • Marantz?
  • Pioneer/Onkyo?
  • Something else I'm not considering?

The Denon X4500h(or x4400h, I believe is still available on clearance for about 45% off) has been the sweet spot imo since the x4300h came out as you get a full 7.1.4 processor for a sub $1000 price on sale/clearance depending on model.
I have the x4300h as does Madmax with the front 3 powered by an Emotiva amp. I've been too lazy to set up my Atmos speakers, as I mostly listen to music, not movies, but it's gonna be great once I get to it.:rolleyes:

My experience with Denon recently(and Onkyo before that) is that if you are going to stress the receiver by having a full speaker setup or playing loudly as I do, you will need the external amp or the Denon/Onkyo will light itself on fire. Admittedly, my usage would be hard on pretty much any receiver, I think people using it for movies would have less of an issue since I don't think the receiver would be working with such extended peaks as with music.
I normally just use the Denon for 5.1 music, just the surrounds, no problem, but a week or so ago, I was using Dolby surround with very dense music loudly, so all 4 surrounds, instead of just two, and my x4300h shut down several times!:eek: Never had that happen before.

Anyway, the point of this rambling is to support your idea of using an Emo amp for LCR, as that is what I am doing, and it works great most of the time.:D BTW, in the few times I have played action flicks loudly, I have never had the x4300h have any problems, it was just that one time playing dense music loudly.

Mashie Saldana 05-16-2019 02:29 AM

NAD 758v3 as it will give you 7.1.4 with Dirac Live.

Landmonster 05-16-2019 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madmax67 (Post 58054662)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Landmonster (Post 58054552)
What about the Yamaha RX-A1080? or Denon X4500h

The A1080 I'm not as sure about. The lower Yamaha models only hit around 1.5Vrms on their pre amp outputs in bench tests. Their higher models I mentioned hit 2Vrms as does most all Denon and Marantz models.

Okay. I really appreciate this Information, if it is true. I've literally never heard anyone Mention preout voltage differences on receivers.

Can you verify this please, or provide links for us? If the 1080 is less effective with amps... Id like to know and replace it sooneer than later!

curtlots 05-16-2019 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen Hopkins (Post 58054756)
I'd think a refurbished Marantz SR6012 is going to be the least expensive option with MultEQ 32, or the Onkyo RZ730 without it.

The price gap between the SR601x line and Denon X4x00 line used to be higher, but it's only around $50 these days, so I'd probably go for the Denon if only for the full-size display instead of the Marantz port-hole.

The Marantz SR6012 is what I chose to go with my Parasound HCA-2205A 5 channel amp that powers the LCR and side surrounds. I chose the Marantz over the Denon because of the supposedly better (HDAM) preamp stage. I'm not a fan of the little display porthole on the Marantz, but other than that, I'm extremely satisfied with my decision. I replaced a Harman Kardon AVR3600 with the Marantz because the H/K didn't have 4K compatible HDMI inputs.

darknite9099 05-16-2019 12:15 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Accessories4less has the Pioneer Elite SC-LX503 for $599, it has a full set of preouts.

https://www.accessories4less.com/mak...eceiver/1.html

Knucklehead90 05-16-2019 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madmax67 (Post 58054662)
The A1080 I'm not as sure about. The lower Yamaha models only hit around 1.5Vrms on their pre amp outputs in bench tests. Their higher models I mentioned hit 2Vrms as does most all Denon and Marantz models. The X4500 can expand from 9 to 11 channels with a 2 channel stereo amp powering either the front L&R speakers or the Height 2 speakers. Any other externally powered channels is also still an option but not required to handle the 11 channel limit. Overall a good receiver for the money in DAC's, power supply, room correction suite (Audyssey XT32 with SubEQ HT) and audio codecs (Auro 3D std.in this model with a 5.1.4 minimum setup.) I personally own the older X4300H myself and love it but I like Yamaha Aventage receivers as well. I also externally power my 5 base channels with an outboard power amp. Works fine.


I had a Yamaha RX-V773 for a time, used it with a couple of Acurus amps and it had no problem driving the amps to as high a volume as I cared to play. Same results for a Yamaha RX-V3900, and now an RX-A2070 that drives the L/R ST's using the A-S1000. My listening space has few reflections or I'd probably be using a Denon or Marantz, or even an Anthem. I haven't even bothered to run YPAO! Each time I've ran room correction there is so little difference it isn't worth the effort! My ceiling has acoustic tiles. Some features about a 70yo house are very nice to have.

Madmax67 05-16-2019 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Landmonster (Post 58056122)
Okay. I really appreciate this Information, if it is true. I've literally never heard anyone Mention preout voltage differences on receivers.

Can you verify this please, or provide links for us? If the 1080 is less effective with amps... Id like to know and replace it sooneer than later!

No problem and Here ya go. all bench tested and broken down by an electrical and audio engineer. Differences in clipping points with different manufactures pre amp outputs is a well known issue. Clipping below 2Vrms is usually considered bad but the bar keeps getting lowered with most consumer electronics so it's not widely talked about. If you're not driving the amp full power it's probably not the end of the world but most want the maximum amount of performance out of their gear whether they actually use it or not. I don't use it all for one.

Madmax67 05-16-2019 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knucklehead90 (Post 58057298)
I had a Yamaha RX-V773 for a time, used it with a couple of Acurus amps and it had no problem driving the amps to as high a volume as I cared to play. Same results for a Yamaha RX-V3900, and now an RX-A2070 that drives the L/R ST's using the A-S1000. My listening space has few reflections or I'd probably be using a Denon or Marantz, or even an Anthem. I haven't even bothered to run YPAO! Each time I've ran room correction there is so little difference it isn't worth the effort! My ceiling has acoustic tiles. Some features about a 70yo house are very nice to have.

Got it. It effects the current lower end Yamaha's up to the lower end Aventage models. The A2080/A3080 don't have this issue and clip at or above 2Vrms. Not sure about the A1080 as I mentioned earlier . It's also going to be dependant on the content played, the room and the gain structure of the external amp. Gene's point of mentioning it in his bench tests is it's an easily obtainable spec by the AV manufactures and there's really no good engineering/cost reason all receivers with available pre amp ouputs shouldn't hit it. I like Yamaha receivers for the record. Just don't currently own one.

Landmonster 05-19-2019 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madmax67 (Post 58054662)
The A1080 I'm not as sure about. The lower Yamaha models only hit around 1.5Vrms on their pre amp outputs in bench tests. Their higher models I mentioned hit 2Vrms as does most all Denon and Marantz models. The X4500 can expand from 9 to 11 channels with a 2 channel stereo amp powering either the front L&R speakers or the Height 2 speakers. Any other externally powered channels is also still an option but not required to handle the 11 channel limit. Overall a good receiver for the money in DAC's, power supply, room correction suite (Audyssey XT32 with SubEQ HT) and audio codecs (Auro 3D std.in this model with a 5.1.4 minimum setup.) I personally own the older X4300H myself and love it but I like Yamaha Aventage receivers as well. I also externally power my 5 base channels with an outboard power amp. Works fine.


Hey guys.


I just did some homework, which added some reassurance to myself, and maybe help some other people reading this.



I looked deep into the specs of the owner's manuals of Yamaha receivers to dig this out, but here goes:

The RX-A1080, RX-A2080, and RX-A3080 have 2Vrms on their pre-amp outputs!
They also each have the same 150 damping factor on the built-in amplifers. It seems the RX-A1080 and above share some characteristics that the lower level receivers do not have.



The RX-A880 and below are maximum 1.6Vrms for the pre-amp outputs. This is stated in the manual. They have 100 damping factor on the built-in amplifiers.

Blue Lion 05-19-2019 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Landmonster (Post 58070758)
Hey guys.


I just did some homework, which added some reassurance to myself, and maybe help some other people reading this.



I looked deep into the specs of the owner's manuals of Yamaha receivers to dig this out, but here goes:

The RX-A1080, RX-A2080, and RX-A3080 have 2Vrms on their pre-amp outputs!
They also each have the same 150 damping factor on the built-in amplifers. It seems the RX-A1080 and above share some characteristics that the lower level receivers do not have.



The RX-A880 and below are maximum 1.6Vrms for the pre-amp outputs. This is stated in the manual. They have 100 damping factor on the built-in amplifiers.

What should we be looking at: Rated Output Level or Maximum Output Level?

If this is so important why is this data so hard to find? Anyone have the data for the Marantz receivers? It seems its rated output is 1.2V (and the maximum output?), but I'm not sure, and that is for the "normal" receivers, what about the slimline receivers with front pre outs, are they good enough, is it 1.2V too?

Madmax67 05-19-2019 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Landmonster (Post 58070758)
Hey guys.


I just did some homework, which added some reassurance to myself, and maybe help some other people reading this.



I looked deep into the specs of the owner's manuals of Yamaha receivers to dig this out, but here goes:

The RX-A1080, RX-A2080, and RX-A3080 have 2Vrms on their pre-amp outputs!
They also each have the same 150 damping factor on the built-in amplifers. It seems the RX-A1080 and above share some characteristics that the lower level receivers do not have.



The RX-A880 and below are maximum 1.6Vrms for the pre-amp outputs. This is stated in the manual. They have 100 damping factor on the built-in amplifiers.

Good to know. I was aware of the lower models issues and the top 2 not having them but the A1080 is a less scrutinized Aventage model so I wasn't 100% sure.

Madmax67 05-19-2019 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Lion (Post 58071166)
What should we be looking at: Rated Output Level or Maximum Output Level?



If this is so important why is this data so hard to find? Anyone have the data for the Marantz receivers? It seems its rated output is 1.2V (and the maximum output?), but I'm not sure, and that is for the "normal" receivers, what about the slimline receivers with front pre outs, are they good enough, is it 1.2V too?

Its the D/A output spec and its 2Vrms on all Denon and Marantz products with pre amp ouputs. Least all I've ever checked and I have PDF manuals on file from the last 3 or 4 years.All Marantz receivers have at least front pre amp outputs and I'd be very surprised of they engineered some to output less at full power than others. At the end of the day unless you have an amp with a low gain structure playing at high levels even the lower rated models should be fine but it's an easily met spec which makes it all the more head scratching why Yamaha doesn't ensure this for all of it's pre amp output available models.

Blue Lion 05-19-2019 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madmax67 (Post 58071484)
Its the D/A output spec and its 2Vrms on all Denon and Marantz products with pre amp ouputs. Least all I've ever checked and I have PDF manuals on file from the last 3 or 4 years.All Marantz receivers have at least front pre amp outputs and I'd be very surprised of they engineered some to output less at full power than others. At the end of the day unless you have an amp with a low gain structure playing at high levels even the lower rated models should be fine but it's an easily met spec which makes it all the more head scratching why Yamaha doesn't ensure this for all of it's pre amp output available models.

Yeah, I found what you're saying in the manuals, but only for the SR60XX series and upwards, not for the SR50XX and slimline receivers. And with the little it says in the analog section of the SR50XX, at least it's the same as the >=SR60XX, but with the slimline receivers it's different. I have the NR1608 and I need to know before a buy a power amp.

Madmax67 05-19-2019 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Lion (Post 58071878)
Yeah, I found what you're saying in the manuals, but only for the SR60XX series and upwards, not for the SR50XX and slimline receivers. And with the little it says in the analog section of the SR50XX, at least it's the same as the >=SR60XX, but with the slimline receivers it's different. I have the NR1608 and I need to know before a buy a power amp.

Got it. I'd call Marantz directly then and ask to speak to a level 2 technician or an engineer. I highly doubt you're going to drive an external amp with its own power supply into clipping before clipping that slimline receivers smaller shared power supply.

Menarini 05-20-2019 12:08 AM

Onkyo PR-RZ5100 is a very good option for a pre pro, i use it paired with a couple of devialet power amps, i get very good results , the speakers being powered are B&W 800 diamond series speakers.

Marc Alexander 05-20-2019 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Landmonster (Post 58053962)
Hi guys,


This is a theoretical question.


Let's say we only care about using an AVR for the home theater processing power, and rely on powerful dedicated amps to power most of the speakers in our theater. Let's say we use something like Emotiva dedicated amps to power at least the front 2 or 3 main speakers in a theater. The receiver is only powering surrounds, if anything at all.



In this scenario, which brand of AVR brand would reign supreme? I'm asking here, to basically disregard the AVR stated wattage and amp quality, and focus on it's surround processing and pre-amp characteristics.

Best? I'm disregarding budget. IME & IMO:

1.) StormAudio I.ISP 3D.16.12 ELITE / Focal Astral 16.
2.) Arcam AVR-390 and up
3.) Anthem MRX-720 and up
4.) NAD T758 v3 and up
5.) Denon X4x00 / Marantz 701x and up
6.) Yamaha RX-A10x0 and up
?? Onkyo/Integra: stick to the THX models

Edit:
I forgot about the Rotel RAP-1580, no REQ. Manual PEQ only.

Blue Lion 05-20-2019 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madmax67 (Post 58071938)
Got it. I'd call Marantz directly then and ask to speak to a level 2 technician or an engineer. I highly doubt you're going to drive an external amp with its own power supply into clipping before clipping that slimline receivers smaller shared power supply.

I'm not worried about clipping the external power amplifier because at the moment I only have a 2.0 setup so I'd not be using the NR1608 internal amplifier. I'm worried about the receiver not being able to fully utilize the external power amp due to having pre outs with insufficient voltage. If I can't use the external power amp to its full capabilities, then what's the point.

Also, about the Marantz specs, are you sure it's the D/A output we should be looking at, and not the rated output of the analog section? Because that says 1.2 V, and if you look at the input sensitivity of the Marantz power amplifiers (ie MM7025) it says 1.2 V unbalanced and 2.4 V balanced, which are the same values as the rated output of the analog section of the AV8805 preamp, and there it does say "Unbalanced RCA PRE-OUTPUT/Balanced XLR pre-output", and it makes sense because their power amps are matched with their receivers/preamps. So that makes me think the value we're looking for is the rated output of the analog section.

Other brands say this:
  • Yamaha RX-A3080: PRE OUT rated output level = 1.0 V, PRE OUT maximum output level = 2.0 V (their power amp MX-A5200 input sensitivity is 1.0 V, again, matched).
  • Onkyo TX-RZ3100: PRE OUT Rated RCA Output Level = 1 V
  • Anthem MRX 1120: Maximum Output = 4.2 Vrms
  • NAD T 777 V3: Maximum output level = >4V
  • Integra DRX-R1.1: Pre Out Rated RCA Output Level = 1 V
  • Arcam AV850: Nominal output level = 1V RMS

Maybe there's a maximum output for everyone and that's what really matters, but they don't mention it.

This is confusing.

Madmax67 05-20-2019 02:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Lion (Post 58072294)
I'm not worried about clipping the external power amplifier because at the moment I only have a 2.0 setup so I'd not be using the NR1608 internal amplifier. I'm worried about the receiver not being able to fully utilize the external power amp due to having pre outs with insufficient voltage. If I can't use the external power amp to its full capabilities, then what's the point.



Also, about the Marantz specs, are you sure it's the D/A output we should be looking at, and not the rated output of the analog section? Because that says 1.2 V, and if you look at the input sensitivity of the Marantz power amplifiers (ie MM7025) it says 1.2 V unbalanced and 2.4 V balanced, which are the same values as the rated output of the analog section of the AV8805 preamp, and there it does say "Unbalanced RCA PRE-OUTPUT/Balanced XLR pre-output", and it makes sense because their power amps are matched with their receivers/preamps. So that makes me think the value we're looking for is the rated output of the analog section.



Other brands say this:
  • Yamaha RX-A3080: PRE OUT rated output level = 1.0 V, PRE OUT maximum output level = 2.0 V (their power amp MX-A5200 input sensitivity is 1.0 V, again, matched).
  • Onkyo TX-RZ3100: PRE OUT Rated RCA Output Level = 1 V
  • Anthem MRX 1120: Maximum Output = 4.2 Vrms
  • NAD T 777 V3: Maximum output level = >4V
  • Integra DRX-R1.1: Pre Out Rated RCA Output Level = 1 V
  • Arcam AV850: Nominal output level = 1V RMS



Maybe there's a maximum output for everyone and that's what really matters, but they don't mention it.



This is confusing.

With all due respect you're over thinking this. Denon and Marantz share the same enclosures and the same power supplies. Denon acquired Marantz almost 10 years ago if memory serves and they have shared the same platforms for a while now. Short of HDAM in the pre amp section and multi channel analog inputs they are the exact same receivers built in the exact same plants. Denon receivers for years now have been bench tested by multiple reviewers testing their power output and their pre out voltage. They have always hit 2Vrms and in some situations hit 4.5 Vrms(Denon X3300 reviewed by Audioholics) unclipped. However, The 1.2 volt pre-out spec you saw I'm pretty sure corresponds to a 200mv input, that being the input sensitivity spec that is indicated in the manual (meaning the input voltage to the Denon's line-level inputs that will result in its own power amplifier being driven to full power.) The one I gave you however I believe is correct and more importantly is backed up by independant bench tests. Bottom line is you are looking for a problem that isn't there in a Denon Marantz receiver. You'll be fine. Get some well shielded short RCA cables(3 feet or so) for connecting the receiver and the external amp channels and enjoy your setup[emoji106].

What are your loudest listening levels in a 2 channel setup Relative scale (+18--80)?

What's the voltage gain in dB's and input sensitivity on your external amp(most are 29dB) ?

Matching an amp to a pre amp

Madmax67 05-20-2019 02:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc Alexander (Post 58072268)
4.) NAD T758 v3 and up

Only 3 HDMI inputs (and a funky USB dongle for wifi and Bluetooth) are dealbreakers for most using an AV receiver as a source device hub but Dirac is really the only reason to get a NAD modular receiver.

BassMojo 05-20-2019 09:46 AM

Posted in error. Please delete.

erick granato 05-20-2019 10:24 AM

If I were to re-do what I did, I would definitely go with an Anthem receiver. To clarify, I to have been using a receiver as a preamp until very recently. I have a Pioneer Elite SC57 (8 years old but top of the range then) and by all reviews and accounts, a more than capable piece of kit. For years I used it as the centre of my Home audio/Home theatre, then wanted a bit more and purchased a Rotel RMB1555 and used the SC57 as preamp/processor. It worked just fine and sounded pretty darn good, especially for Home Theatre duty. But I have always had my eye on purchasing a proper preamp processor and run a "separates" system. I just recently purchased the Anthem AVM60 pre/pro and WOW, What a difference! Big difference in plain old analogue 2 channel and Home Theatre, and I haven't run the Arc yet! So the moral to my story is that, if your budget permits, I would recommend buying a good preamp processor to mate up with your amps and call it a day. I guess it is pretty well known, or perhaps assumed, that a receiver, even some of the expensive receivers from reputable brands, are a compromise. They pack as much tech as they can, as many channels as they can, to hit a price point. Don't get me wrong, some of the higher end ones sound very good, but if you truly want a step up, go with the separate processor. Now back to Anthem receiver, I think they are a brand that puts quality first with not too many frivolous bells and whistles to hit their price point, so if you want the receiver, that's where i would go.

Marc Alexander 05-20-2019 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madmax67 (Post 58072362)
Only 3 HDMI inputs (and a funky USB dongle for wifi and Bluetooth) are dealbreakers for most using an AV receiver as a source device hub but Dirac is really the only reason to get a NAD modular receiver.

There is the T777v3 (the "and up"). Is Dirac a trivial processing feature? Not for me.

This was a list of the best IMO and IME based on the OP. That is all. My best value list would be quite different.


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