Which receiver brand is best as processor pre-amp only? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 10Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 34 Old 05-15-2019, 06:01 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Landmonster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Posts: 231
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 91 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Question Which receiver brand is best as processor pre-amp only?

Hi guys,


This is a theoretical question.


Let's say we only care about using an AVR for the home theater processing power, and rely on powerful dedicated amps to power most of the speakers in our theater. Let's say we use something like Emotiva dedicated amps to power at least the front 2 or 3 main speakers in a theater. The receiver is only powering surrounds, if anything at all.



In this scenario, which brand of AVR brand would reign supreme? I'm asking here, to basically disregard the AVR stated wattage and amp quality, and focus on it's surround processing and pre-amp characteristics. Of course, this would necessitate buying a new AVR, since formats change all the time.





Any experts with experience in this care to chime in? Rank the brands, as best you can, as pre-amps

  • Denon X series?
  • Yamaha Aventage?
  • Marantz?
  • Pioneer/Onkyo?
  • Something else I'm not considering?

Last edited by Landmonster; 05-15-2019 at 06:06 PM.
Landmonster is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 34 Old 05-15-2019, 06:38 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Madmax67's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Mckinney,Texas
Posts: 4,383
Mentioned: 32 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1926 Post(s)
Liked: 2205
The ones capable of driving an external power amp to full power via their pre amp ouputs so Denon/Marantz and the higher end Yamaha's (A2080/3080).

Chane A5 towers,Chane A2.4 center,RBH bipole side surrounds, Rythmik LV12R x2,Denon X4300H, Outlaw 5000,Front B speakers: Wharfedale Diamond 10.1 books. https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-rec...d-part-ii.html
Madmax67 is offline  
post #3 of 34 Old 05-15-2019, 08:55 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Landmonster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Posts: 231
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 91 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Madmax67 View Post
The ones capable of driving an external power amp to full power via their pre amp ouputs so Denon/Marantz and the higher end Yamaha's (A2080/3080).

What about the Yamaha RX-A1080? or Denon X4500h
Landmonster is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 34 Old 05-15-2019, 09:15 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Shadowed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 2,227
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 934 Post(s)
Liked: 899
Shadowed is offline  
post #5 of 34 Old 05-15-2019, 09:23 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Madmax67's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Mckinney,Texas
Posts: 4,383
Mentioned: 32 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1926 Post(s)
Liked: 2205
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowed View Post
Better room correction suite in ARC for sure but Anthem receivers have limited HDMI inputs and lack a few other features most AVR's have. You're paying the premium for the room correction and the power supply but if you're offloading the amps the latter isn't as important. Dont get me wrong I like Anthem receivers. They're just a bit pricey for my blood.
spyboy and junior00027 like this.

Chane A5 towers,Chane A2.4 center,RBH bipole side surrounds, Rythmik LV12R x2,Denon X4300H, Outlaw 5000,Front B speakers: Wharfedale Diamond 10.1 books. https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-rec...d-part-ii.html
Madmax67 is offline  
post #6 of 34 Old 05-15-2019, 09:32 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Madmax67's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Mckinney,Texas
Posts: 4,383
Mentioned: 32 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1926 Post(s)
Liked: 2205
Quote:
Originally Posted by Landmonster View Post
What about the Yamaha RX-A1080? or Denon X4500h
The A1080 I'm not as sure about. The lower Yamaha models only hit around 1.5Vrms on their pre amp outputs in bench tests. Their higher models I mentioned hit 2Vrms as does most all Denon and Marantz models. The X4500 can expand from 9 to 11 channels with a 2 channel stereo amp powering either the front L&R speakers or the Height 2 speakers. Any other externally powered channels is also still an option but not required to handle the 11 channel limit. Overall a good receiver for the money in DAC's, power supply, room correction suite (Audyssey XT32 with SubEQ HT) and audio codecs (Auro 3D std.in this model with a 5.1.4 minimum setup.) I personally own the older X4300H myself and love it but I like Yamaha Aventage receivers as well. I also externally power my 5 base channels with an outboard power amp. Works fine.
drh3b, dfa973 and junior00027 like this.

Chane A5 towers,Chane A2.4 center,RBH bipole side surrounds, Rythmik LV12R x2,Denon X4300H, Outlaw 5000,Front B speakers: Wharfedale Diamond 10.1 books. https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-rec...d-part-ii.html
Madmax67 is offline  
post #7 of 34 Old 05-15-2019, 10:18 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Stephen Hopkins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Douglasville, GA
Posts: 4,101
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 392 Post(s)
Liked: 171
I'd think a refurbished Marantz SR6012 is going to be the least expensive option with MultEQ 32, or the Onkyo RZ730 without it.

The price gap between the SR601x line and Denon X4x00 line used to be higher, but it's only around $50 these days, so I'd probably go for the Denon if only for the full-size display instead of the Marantz port-hole.
drh3b and curtlots like this.

BenQ TK800 | Silver Ticket 106" 16:9 1.0 Grey | Marantz SR6011 | B&W P6 | B&W CDMC SE | Sonance .5 THX SUR | MCM In-Ceiling Atmos | Ascendant Avalanche 12" in 6 ft^3 @ 18Hz w/ BASH 500w Plate Amp | Sony X800 | NVidia Shield TV Pro | XBox One 500gb | Nintendo Switch | Harmony Smart Control | SmartThings Hub | Google Home | AT&T Fiber 300 | YouTube TV | Netflix | HBO Now | Spotify
Stephen Hopkins is offline  
post #8 of 34 Old 05-15-2019, 11:26 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Madmax67's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Mckinney,Texas
Posts: 4,383
Mentioned: 32 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1926 Post(s)
Liked: 2205
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen Hopkins View Post
I'd think a refurbished Marantz SR6012 is going to be the least expensive option with MultEQ 32, or the Onkyo RZ730 without it.



The price gap between the SR601x line and Denon X4x00 line used to be higher, but it's only around $50 these days, so I'd probably go for the Denon if only for the full-size display instead of the Marantz port-hole.
Also the SR601x is based on the X3*00 Denon's not the X4*00.

Chane A5 towers,Chane A2.4 center,RBH bipole side surrounds, Rythmik LV12R x2,Denon X4300H, Outlaw 5000,Front B speakers: Wharfedale Diamond 10.1 books. https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-rec...d-part-ii.html
Madmax67 is offline  
post #9 of 34 Old 05-16-2019, 12:11 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
drh3b's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Saint Louis, MO
Posts: 3,208
Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1701 Post(s)
Liked: 3081
Quote:
Originally Posted by Landmonster View Post
Hi guys,


This is a theoretical question.


Let's say we only care about using an AVR for the home theater processing power, and rely on powerful dedicated amps to power most of the speakers in our theater. Let's say we use something like Emotiva dedicated amps to power at least the front 2 or 3 main speakers in a theater. The receiver is only powering surrounds, if anything at all.



In this scenario, which brand of AVR brand would reign supreme? I'm asking here, to basically disregard the AVR stated wattage and amp quality, and focus on it's surround processing and pre-amp characteristics. Of course, this would necessitate buying a new AVR, since formats change all the time.





Any experts with experience in this care to chime in? Rank the brands, as best you can, as pre-amps

  • Denon X series?
  • Yamaha Aventage?
  • Marantz?
  • Pioneer/Onkyo?
  • Something else I'm not considering?
The Denon X4500h(or x4400h, I believe is still available on clearance for about 45% off) has been the sweet spot imo since the x4300h came out as you get a full 7.1.4 processor for a sub $1000 price on sale/clearance depending on model.
I have the x4300h as does Madmax with the front 3 powered by an Emotiva amp. I've been too lazy to set up my Atmos speakers, as I mostly listen to music, not movies, but it's gonna be great once I get to it.

My experience with Denon recently(and Onkyo before that) is that if you are going to stress the receiver by having a full speaker setup or playing loudly as I do, you will need the external amp or the Denon/Onkyo will light itself on fire. Admittedly, my usage would be hard on pretty much any receiver, I think people using it for movies would have less of an issue since I don't think the receiver would be working with such extended peaks as with music.
I normally just use the Denon for 5.1 music, just the surrounds, no problem, but a week or so ago, I was using Dolby surround with very dense music loudly, so all 4 surrounds, instead of just two, and my x4300h shut down several times! Never had that happen before.

Anyway, the point of this rambling is to support your idea of using an Emo amp for LCR, as that is what I am doing, and it works great most of the time. BTW, in the few times I have played action flicks loudly, I have never had the x4300h have any problems, it was just that one time playing dense music loudly.
Madmax67 likes this.

Denon AVR-X4300H (2nd try), Emotiva XPA-3 Gen3
Klipsch RP-280f LR & SR, RP-450c, RP-260f SB, pending Velodyne Deco Atmos
Rythmik F18 x 2
OPPO UDP-203, HTPC, TiVo Roamio, Adequate Samsung 4k
Turn Down For What!?

Last edited by drh3b; 05-16-2019 at 05:26 AM.
drh3b is offline  
post #10 of 34 Old 05-16-2019, 02:29 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Mashie Saldana's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 2,032
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1111 Post(s)
Liked: 935
NAD 758v3 as it will give you 7.1.4 with Dirac Live.

Tower Cinema - 9.1.6 in a 12'x12' room
Input : Nvidia Shield TV, Panasonic DMP-UB400
Magic : Marantz SR7010, Marantz SR6010, 2x NAD T743
Output : Panasonic TX65EZ952B, SVS PB13 Ultra, Monitor Audio GSLCR 2xGS20 2xGS10 4xGSFX 6xBX1
Mashie Saldana is offline  
post #11 of 34 Old 05-16-2019, 08:56 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Landmonster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Posts: 231
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 91 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Madmax67 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Landmonster View Post
What about the Yamaha RX-A1080? or Denon X4500h
The A1080 I'm not as sure about. The lower Yamaha models only hit around 1.5Vrms on their pre amp outputs in bench tests. Their higher models I mentioned hit 2Vrms as does most all Denon and Marantz models.
Okay. I really appreciate this Information, if it is true. I've literally never heard anyone Mention preout voltage differences on receivers.

Can you verify this please, or provide links for us? If the 1080 is less effective with amps... Id like to know and replace it sooneer than later!
Landmonster is offline  
post #12 of 34 Old 05-16-2019, 10:25 AM
Advanced Member
 
curtlots's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Northeast WI
Posts: 884
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 160 Post(s)
Liked: 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen Hopkins View Post
I'd think a refurbished Marantz SR6012 is going to be the least expensive option with MultEQ 32, or the Onkyo RZ730 without it.

The price gap between the SR601x line and Denon X4x00 line used to be higher, but it's only around $50 these days, so I'd probably go for the Denon if only for the full-size display instead of the Marantz port-hole.
The Marantz SR6012 is what I chose to go with my Parasound HCA-2205A 5 channel amp that powers the LCR and side surrounds. I chose the Marantz over the Denon because of the supposedly better (HDAM) preamp stage. I'm not a fan of the little display porthole on the Marantz, but other than that, I'm extremely satisfied with my decision. I replaced a Harman Kardon AVR3600 with the Marantz because the H/K didn't have 4K compatible HDMI inputs.
curtlots is offline  
post #13 of 34 Old 05-16-2019, 12:15 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 296
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 157 Post(s)
Liked: 163
Accessories4less has the Pioneer Elite SC-LX503 for $599, it has a full set of preouts.

https://www.accessories4less.com/mak...eceiver/1.html
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Pioneer 503.png
Views:	20
Size:	1.05 MB
ID:	2567604  
darknite9099 is offline  
post #14 of 34 Old 05-16-2019, 12:33 PM
The Village Idiot
 
Knucklehead90's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: State of Confusion - 98823
Posts: 9,280
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 753 Post(s)
Liked: 703
Quote:
Originally Posted by Madmax67 View Post
The A1080 I'm not as sure about. The lower Yamaha models only hit around 1.5Vrms on their pre amp outputs in bench tests. Their higher models I mentioned hit 2Vrms as does most all Denon and Marantz models. The X4500 can expand from 9 to 11 channels with a 2 channel stereo amp powering either the front L&R speakers or the Height 2 speakers. Any other externally powered channels is also still an option but not required to handle the 11 channel limit. Overall a good receiver for the money in DAC's, power supply, room correction suite (Audyssey XT32 with SubEQ HT) and audio codecs (Auro 3D std.in this model with a 5.1.4 minimum setup.) I personally own the older X4300H myself and love it but I like Yamaha Aventage receivers as well. I also externally power my 5 base channels with an outboard power amp. Works fine.

I had a Yamaha RX-V773 for a time, used it with a couple of Acurus amps and it had no problem driving the amps to as high a volume as I cared to play. Same results for a Yamaha RX-V3900, and now an RX-A2070 that drives the L/R ST's using the A-S1000. My listening space has few reflections or I'd probably be using a Denon or Marantz, or even an Anthem. I haven't even bothered to run YPAO! Each time I've ran room correction there is so little difference it isn't worth the effort! My ceiling has acoustic tiles. Some features about a 70yo house are very nice to have.

Yamaha A-S1000 Int. Amp - Salk SongTowers - Oppo 103 - Marantz TT42 - Emo XDA-2 DAC
Multi-Channel: Yamaha RX-A2070 - Custom One-Off Selah Audio Center - Emo ERD-1 Surrounds
Twas a woman who drove me to drink. I never had the decency to write and thank her ~ WC Fields
Knucklehead90 is online now  
post #15 of 34 Old 05-16-2019, 03:48 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Madmax67's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Mckinney,Texas
Posts: 4,383
Mentioned: 32 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1926 Post(s)
Liked: 2205
Quote:
Originally Posted by Landmonster View Post
Okay. I really appreciate this Information, if it is true. I've literally never heard anyone Mention preout voltage differences on receivers.

Can you verify this please, or provide links for us? If the 1080 is less effective with amps... Id like to know and replace it sooneer than later!
No problem and Here ya go. all bench tested and broken down by an electrical and audio engineer. Differences in clipping points with different manufactures pre amp outputs is a well known issue. Clipping below 2Vrms is usually considered bad but the bar keeps getting lowered with most consumer electronics so it's not widely talked about. If you're not driving the amp full power it's probably not the end of the world but most want the maximum amount of performance out of their gear whether they actually use it or not. I don't use it all for one.

Chane A5 towers,Chane A2.4 center,RBH bipole side surrounds, Rythmik LV12R x2,Denon X4300H, Outlaw 5000,Front B speakers: Wharfedale Diamond 10.1 books. https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-rec...d-part-ii.html

Last edited by Madmax67; 05-16-2019 at 03:51 PM.
Madmax67 is offline  
post #16 of 34 Old 05-16-2019, 04:17 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Madmax67's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Mckinney,Texas
Posts: 4,383
Mentioned: 32 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1926 Post(s)
Liked: 2205
Quote:
Originally Posted by Knucklehead90 View Post
I had a Yamaha RX-V773 for a time, used it with a couple of Acurus amps and it had no problem driving the amps to as high a volume as I cared to play. Same results for a Yamaha RX-V3900, and now an RX-A2070 that drives the L/R ST's using the A-S1000. My listening space has few reflections or I'd probably be using a Denon or Marantz, or even an Anthem. I haven't even bothered to run YPAO! Each time I've ran room correction there is so little difference it isn't worth the effort! My ceiling has acoustic tiles. Some features about a 70yo house are very nice to have.
Got it. It effects the current lower end Yamaha's up to the lower end Aventage models. The A2080/A3080 don't have this issue and clip at or above 2Vrms. Not sure about the A1080 as I mentioned earlier . It's also going to be dependant on the content played, the room and the gain structure of the external amp. Gene's point of mentioning it in his bench tests is it's an easily obtainable spec by the AV manufactures and there's really no good engineering/cost reason all receivers with available pre amp ouputs shouldn't hit it. I like Yamaha receivers for the record. Just don't currently own one.

Chane A5 towers,Chane A2.4 center,RBH bipole side surrounds, Rythmik LV12R x2,Denon X4300H, Outlaw 5000,Front B speakers: Wharfedale Diamond 10.1 books. https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-rec...d-part-ii.html
Madmax67 is offline  
post #17 of 34 Old 05-19-2019, 04:14 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Landmonster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Posts: 231
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 91 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by Madmax67 View Post
The A1080 I'm not as sure about. The lower Yamaha models only hit around 1.5Vrms on their pre amp outputs in bench tests. Their higher models I mentioned hit 2Vrms as does most all Denon and Marantz models. The X4500 can expand from 9 to 11 channels with a 2 channel stereo amp powering either the front L&R speakers or the Height 2 speakers. Any other externally powered channels is also still an option but not required to handle the 11 channel limit. Overall a good receiver for the money in DAC's, power supply, room correction suite (Audyssey XT32 with SubEQ HT) and audio codecs (Auro 3D std.in this model with a 5.1.4 minimum setup.) I personally own the older X4300H myself and love it but I like Yamaha Aventage receivers as well. I also externally power my 5 base channels with an outboard power amp. Works fine.

Hey guys.


I just did some homework, which added some reassurance to myself, and maybe help some other people reading this.



I looked deep into the specs of the owner's manuals of Yamaha receivers to dig this out, but here goes:

The RX-A1080, RX-A2080, and RX-A3080 have 2Vrms on their pre-amp outputs!
They also each have the same 150 damping factor on the built-in amplifers. It seems the RX-A1080 and above share some characteristics that the lower level receivers do not have.



The RX-A880 and below are maximum 1.6Vrms for the pre-amp outputs. This is stated in the manual. They have 100 damping factor on the built-in amplifiers.
Madmax67 likes this.
Landmonster is offline  
post #18 of 34 Old 05-19-2019, 05:41 PM
Newbie
 
Join Date: May 2019
Posts: 5
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by Landmonster View Post
Hey guys.


I just did some homework, which added some reassurance to myself, and maybe help some other people reading this.



I looked deep into the specs of the owner's manuals of Yamaha receivers to dig this out, but here goes:

The RX-A1080, RX-A2080, and RX-A3080 have 2Vrms on their pre-amp outputs!
They also each have the same 150 damping factor on the built-in amplifers. It seems the RX-A1080 and above share some characteristics that the lower level receivers do not have.



The RX-A880 and below are maximum 1.6Vrms for the pre-amp outputs. This is stated in the manual. They have 100 damping factor on the built-in amplifiers.
What should we be looking at: Rated Output Level or Maximum Output Level?

If this is so important why is this data so hard to find? Anyone have the data for the Marantz receivers? It seems its rated output is 1.2V (and the maximum output?), but I'm not sure, and that is for the "normal" receivers, what about the slimline receivers with front pre outs, are they good enough, is it 1.2V too?
Blue Lion is offline  
post #19 of 34 Old 05-19-2019, 07:03 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Madmax67's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Mckinney,Texas
Posts: 4,383
Mentioned: 32 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1926 Post(s)
Liked: 2205
Quote:
Originally Posted by Landmonster View Post
Hey guys.


I just did some homework, which added some reassurance to myself, and maybe help some other people reading this.



I looked deep into the specs of the owner's manuals of Yamaha receivers to dig this out, but here goes:

The RX-A1080, RX-A2080, and RX-A3080 have 2Vrms on their pre-amp outputs!
They also each have the same 150 damping factor on the built-in amplifers. It seems the RX-A1080 and above share some characteristics that the lower level receivers do not have.



The RX-A880 and below are maximum 1.6Vrms for the pre-amp outputs. This is stated in the manual. They have 100 damping factor on the built-in amplifiers.
Good to know. I was aware of the lower models issues and the top 2 not having them but the A1080 is a less scrutinized Aventage model so I wasn't 100% sure.

Chane A5 towers,Chane A2.4 center,RBH bipole side surrounds, Rythmik LV12R x2,Denon X4300H, Outlaw 5000,Front B speakers: Wharfedale Diamond 10.1 books. https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-rec...d-part-ii.html
Madmax67 is offline  
post #20 of 34 Old 05-19-2019, 07:14 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Madmax67's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Mckinney,Texas
Posts: 4,383
Mentioned: 32 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1926 Post(s)
Liked: 2205
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Lion View Post
What should we be looking at: Rated Output Level or Maximum Output Level?



If this is so important why is this data so hard to find? Anyone have the data for the Marantz receivers? It seems its rated output is 1.2V (and the maximum output?), but I'm not sure, and that is for the "normal" receivers, what about the slimline receivers with front pre outs, are they good enough, is it 1.2V too?
Its the D/A output spec and its 2Vrms on all Denon and Marantz products with pre amp ouputs. Least all I've ever checked and I have PDF manuals on file from the last 3 or 4 years.All Marantz receivers have at least front pre amp outputs and I'd be very surprised of they engineered some to output less at full power than others. At the end of the day unless you have an amp with a low gain structure playing at high levels even the lower rated models should be fine but it's an easily met spec which makes it all the more head scratching why Yamaha doesn't ensure this for all of it's pre amp output available models.

Chane A5 towers,Chane A2.4 center,RBH bipole side surrounds, Rythmik LV12R x2,Denon X4300H, Outlaw 5000,Front B speakers: Wharfedale Diamond 10.1 books. https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-rec...d-part-ii.html
Madmax67 is offline  
post #21 of 34 Old 05-19-2019, 09:11 PM
Newbie
 
Join Date: May 2019
Posts: 5
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by Madmax67 View Post
Its the D/A output spec and its 2Vrms on all Denon and Marantz products with pre amp ouputs. Least all I've ever checked and I have PDF manuals on file from the last 3 or 4 years.All Marantz receivers have at least front pre amp outputs and I'd be very surprised of they engineered some to output less at full power than others. At the end of the day unless you have an amp with a low gain structure playing at high levels even the lower rated models should be fine but it's an easily met spec which makes it all the more head scratching why Yamaha doesn't ensure this for all of it's pre amp output available models.
Yeah, I found what you're saying in the manuals, but only for the SR60XX series and upwards, not for the SR50XX and slimline receivers. And with the little it says in the analog section of the SR50XX, at least it's the same as the >=SR60XX, but with the slimline receivers it's different. I have the NR1608 and I need to know before a buy a power amp.
Blue Lion is offline  
post #22 of 34 Old 05-19-2019, 09:40 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Madmax67's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Mckinney,Texas
Posts: 4,383
Mentioned: 32 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1926 Post(s)
Liked: 2205
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Lion View Post
Yeah, I found what you're saying in the manuals, but only for the SR60XX series and upwards, not for the SR50XX and slimline receivers. And with the little it says in the analog section of the SR50XX, at least it's the same as the >=SR60XX, but with the slimline receivers it's different. I have the NR1608 and I need to know before a buy a power amp.
Got it. I'd call Marantz directly then and ask to speak to a level 2 technician or an engineer. I highly doubt you're going to drive an external amp with its own power supply into clipping before clipping that slimline receivers smaller shared power supply.

Chane A5 towers,Chane A2.4 center,RBH bipole side surrounds, Rythmik LV12R x2,Denon X4300H, Outlaw 5000,Front B speakers: Wharfedale Diamond 10.1 books. https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-rec...d-part-ii.html
Madmax67 is offline  
post #23 of 34 Old 05-20-2019, 12:08 AM
Advanced Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: India/Working abroad
Posts: 772
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 675 Post(s)
Liked: 310
Onkyo PR-RZ5100 is a very good option for a pre pro, i use it paired with a couple of devialet power amps, i get very good results , the speakers being powered are B&W 800 diamond series speakers.
Menarini is offline  
post #24 of 34 Old 05-20-2019, 12:43 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Marc Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Inland Empire, CA
Posts: 13,132
Mentioned: 226 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5168 Post(s)
Liked: 4708
Quote:
Originally Posted by Landmonster View Post
Hi guys,


This is a theoretical question.


Let's say we only care about using an AVR for the home theater processing power, and rely on powerful dedicated amps to power most of the speakers in our theater. Let's say we use something like Emotiva dedicated amps to power at least the front 2 or 3 main speakers in a theater. The receiver is only powering surrounds, if anything at all.



In this scenario, which brand of AVR brand would reign supreme? I'm asking here, to basically disregard the AVR stated wattage and amp quality, and focus on it's surround processing and pre-amp characteristics.
Best? I'm disregarding budget. IME & IMO:

1.) StormAudio I.ISP 3D.16.12 ELITE / Focal Astral 16.
2.) Arcam AVR-390 and up
3.) Anthem MRX-720 and up
4.) NAD T758 v3 and up
5.) Denon X4x00 / Marantz 701x and up
6.) Yamaha RX-A10x0 and up
?? Onkyo/Integra: stick to the THX models

Edit:
I forgot about the Rotel RAP-1580, no REQ. Manual PEQ only.

Last edited by Marc Alexander; 05-20-2019 at 12:55 AM.
Marc Alexander is online now  
post #25 of 34 Old 05-20-2019, 01:12 AM
Newbie
 
Join Date: May 2019
Posts: 5
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by Madmax67 View Post
Got it. I'd call Marantz directly then and ask to speak to a level 2 technician or an engineer. I highly doubt you're going to drive an external amp with its own power supply into clipping before clipping that slimline receivers smaller shared power supply.
I'm not worried about clipping the external power amplifier because at the moment I only have a 2.0 setup so I'd not be using the NR1608 internal amplifier. I'm worried about the receiver not being able to fully utilize the external power amp due to having pre outs with insufficient voltage. If I can't use the external power amp to its full capabilities, then what's the point.

Also, about the Marantz specs, are you sure it's the D/A output we should be looking at, and not the rated output of the analog section? Because that says 1.2 V, and if you look at the input sensitivity of the Marantz power amplifiers (ie MM7025) it says 1.2 V unbalanced and 2.4 V balanced, which are the same values as the rated output of the analog section of the AV8805 preamp, and there it does say "Unbalanced RCA PRE-OUTPUT/Balanced XLR pre-output", and it makes sense because their power amps are matched with their receivers/preamps. So that makes me think the value we're looking for is the rated output of the analog section.

Other brands say this:
  • Yamaha RX-A3080: PRE OUT rated output level = 1.0 V, PRE OUT maximum output level = 2.0 V (their power amp MX-A5200 input sensitivity is 1.0 V, again, matched).
  • Onkyo TX-RZ3100: PRE OUT Rated RCA Output Level = 1 V
  • Anthem MRX 1120: Maximum Output = 4.2 Vrms
  • NAD T 777 V3: Maximum output level = >4V
  • Integra DRX-R1.1: Pre Out Rated RCA Output Level = 1 V
  • Arcam AV850: Nominal output level = 1V RMS

Maybe there's a maximum output for everyone and that's what really matters, but they don't mention it.

This is confusing.
Blue Lion is offline  
post #26 of 34 Old 05-20-2019, 02:21 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Madmax67's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Mckinney,Texas
Posts: 4,383
Mentioned: 32 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1926 Post(s)
Liked: 2205
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Lion View Post
I'm not worried about clipping the external power amplifier because at the moment I only have a 2.0 setup so I'd not be using the NR1608 internal amplifier. I'm worried about the receiver not being able to fully utilize the external power amp due to having pre outs with insufficient voltage. If I can't use the external power amp to its full capabilities, then what's the point.



Also, about the Marantz specs, are you sure it's the D/A output we should be looking at, and not the rated output of the analog section? Because that says 1.2 V, and if you look at the input sensitivity of the Marantz power amplifiers (ie MM7025) it says 1.2 V unbalanced and 2.4 V balanced, which are the same values as the rated output of the analog section of the AV8805 preamp, and there it does say "Unbalanced RCA PRE-OUTPUT/Balanced XLR pre-output", and it makes sense because their power amps are matched with their receivers/preamps. So that makes me think the value we're looking for is the rated output of the analog section.



Other brands say this:
  • Yamaha RX-A3080: PRE OUT rated output level = 1.0 V, PRE OUT maximum output level = 2.0 V (their power amp MX-A5200 input sensitivity is 1.0 V, again, matched).
  • Onkyo TX-RZ3100: PRE OUT Rated RCA Output Level = 1 V
  • Anthem MRX 1120: Maximum Output = 4.2 Vrms
  • NAD T 777 V3: Maximum output level = >4V
  • Integra DRX-R1.1: Pre Out Rated RCA Output Level = 1 V
  • Arcam AV850: Nominal output level = 1V RMS



Maybe there's a maximum output for everyone and that's what really matters, but they don't mention it.



This is confusing.
With all due respect you're over thinking this. Denon and Marantz share the same enclosures and the same power supplies. Denon acquired Marantz almost 10 years ago if memory serves and they have shared the same platforms for a while now. Short of HDAM in the pre amp section and multi channel analog inputs they are the exact same receivers built in the exact same plants. Denon receivers for years now have been bench tested by multiple reviewers testing their power output and their pre out voltage. They have always hit 2Vrms and in some situations hit 4.5 Vrms(Denon X3300 reviewed by Audioholics) unclipped. However, The 1.2 volt pre-out spec you saw I'm pretty sure corresponds to a 200mv input, that being the input sensitivity spec that is indicated in the manual (meaning the input voltage to the Denon's line-level inputs that will result in its own power amplifier being driven to full power.) The one I gave you however I believe is correct and more importantly is backed up by independant bench tests. Bottom line is you are looking for a problem that isn't there in a Denon Marantz receiver. You'll be fine. Get some well shielded short RCA cables(3 feet or so) for connecting the receiver and the external amp channels and enjoy your setup.

What are your loudest listening levels in a 2 channel setup Relative scale (+18--80)?

What's the voltage gain in dB's and input sensitivity on your external amp(most are 29dB) ?

Matching an amp to a pre amp

Chane A5 towers,Chane A2.4 center,RBH bipole side surrounds, Rythmik LV12R x2,Denon X4300H, Outlaw 5000,Front B speakers: Wharfedale Diamond 10.1 books. https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-rec...d-part-ii.html
Madmax67 is offline  
post #27 of 34 Old 05-20-2019, 02:36 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Madmax67's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Mckinney,Texas
Posts: 4,383
Mentioned: 32 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1926 Post(s)
Liked: 2205
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
4.) NAD T758 v3 and up
Only 3 HDMI inputs (and a funky USB dongle for wifi and Bluetooth) are dealbreakers for most using an AV receiver as a source device hub but Dirac is really the only reason to get a NAD modular receiver.

Chane A5 towers,Chane A2.4 center,RBH bipole side surrounds, Rythmik LV12R x2,Denon X4300H, Outlaw 5000,Front B speakers: Wharfedale Diamond 10.1 books. https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-rec...d-part-ii.html
Madmax67 is offline  
post #28 of 34 Old 05-20-2019, 09:46 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 226
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 153 Post(s)
Liked: 197
Posted in error. Please delete.
BassMojo is offline  
post #29 of 34 Old 05-20-2019, 10:24 AM
Advanced Member
 
erick granato's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: toronto area
Posts: 812
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 107 Post(s)
Liked: 79
If I were to re-do what I did, I would definitely go with an Anthem receiver. To clarify, I to have been using a receiver as a preamp until very recently. I have a Pioneer Elite SC57 (8 years old but top of the range then) and by all reviews and accounts, a more than capable piece of kit. For years I used it as the centre of my Home audio/Home theatre, then wanted a bit more and purchased a Rotel RMB1555 and used the SC57 as preamp/processor. It worked just fine and sounded pretty darn good, especially for Home Theatre duty. But I have always had my eye on purchasing a proper preamp processor and run a "separates" system. I just recently purchased the Anthem AVM60 pre/pro and WOW, What a difference! Big difference in plain old analogue 2 channel and Home Theatre, and I haven't run the Arc yet! So the moral to my story is that, if your budget permits, I would recommend buying a good preamp processor to mate up with your amps and call it a day. I guess it is pretty well known, or perhaps assumed, that a receiver, even some of the expensive receivers from reputable brands, are a compromise. They pack as much tech as they can, as many channels as they can, to hit a price point. Don't get me wrong, some of the higher end ones sound very good, but if you truly want a step up, go with the separate processor. Now back to Anthem receiver, I think they are a brand that puts quality first with not too many frivolous bells and whistles to hit their price point, so if you want the receiver, that's where i would go.
erick granato is online now  
post #30 of 34 Old 05-20-2019, 12:39 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Marc Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Inland Empire, CA
Posts: 13,132
Mentioned: 226 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5168 Post(s)
Liked: 4708
Quote:
Originally Posted by Madmax67 View Post
Only 3 HDMI inputs (and a funky USB dongle for wifi and Bluetooth) are dealbreakers for most using an AV receiver as a source device hub but Dirac is really the only reason to get a NAD modular receiver.
There is the T777v3 (the "and up"). Is Dirac a trivial processing feature? Not for me.

This was a list of the best IMO and IME based on the OP. That is all. My best value list would be quite different.
Marc Alexander is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Receivers, Amps, and Processors

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off