Dedicated ARC Genesis thread - Page 10 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #271 of 716 Old 06-25-2019, 10:15 AM
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Why does music streamed from ATV4k sound so thin? Even with an aggressive house curve and low bass boost, the music sounds bad! Any hints?
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post #272 of 716 Old 06-25-2019, 04:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Voltage and DBs

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Originally Posted by shs1234 View Post
A factor of 2 in voltage is 6 dB. 6 dB is a factor of 2 in voltage or a factor of 4 in power.
Thank you for your help.
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post #273 of 716 Old 06-26-2019, 05:03 AM
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I have a theoretical question. I have used REW to set the proper distance for my subs and now that I've corrected my sub distance in relation to my mains, I was wondering if it's worth my time to align the remaining channels to the subs? In other words, now that the subs are set correctly, I could adjust each channel against the sub and change that channel's distance until the REW graph only has additive curve.

My question is about whether it's necessary to fine tune the remaining channels or is within a foot or two good enough?
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post #274 of 716 Old 06-26-2019, 05:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Aligning speaker distances

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Originally Posted by mitchlampert View Post
I have a theoretical question. I have used REW to set the proper distance for my subs and now that I've corrected my sub distance in relation to my mains, I was wondering if it's worth my time to align the remaining channels to the subs? In other words, now that the subs are set correctly, I could adjust each channel against the sub and change that channel's distance until the REW graph only has additive curve.

My question is about whether it's necessary to fine tune the remaining channels or is within a foot or two good enough?
How would you get more precise distances with Anthem's one foot increments? My fronts and center are precisely 12 ft so they are not an issue. My back and surrounds vary between 8'3" and 8'7". I get the most immersion setting these 4 to 9'.
Before Genesis, I spent over a year trying many adjustments for my subs and speakers as suggested on the subwoofer threads. While I am clearly not an expert, I believe my theoretical knowledge and ability to set up my system has improved significantly. But with Genesis, I also feel I have emerged from a period of obsession to a happier day. I have a large room with many acoustic panels including bass traps. Exactly how good can the sound become? What is it that I am trying to achieve? Maybe I'm just ignorant and can't imagine the possibility.
Perhaps this is too abstract a response to your question. If so, I apologize.
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post #275 of 716 Old 06-26-2019, 06:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WLC View Post
How would you get more precise distances with Anthem's one foot increments? My fronts and center are precisely 12 ft so they are not an issue. My back and surrounds vary between 8'3" and 8'7". I get the most immersion setting these 4 to 9'.
Before Genesis, I spent over a year trying many adjustments for my subs and speakers as suggested on the subwoofer threads. While I am clearly not an expert, I believe my theoretical knowledge and ability to set up my system has improved significantly. But with Genesis, I also feel I have emerged from a period of obsession to a happier day. I have a large room with many acoustic panels including bass traps. Exactly how good can the sound become? What is it that I am trying to achieve? Maybe I'm just ignorant and can't imagine the possibility.
Perhaps this is too abstract a response to your question. If so, I apologize.
Thanks and yes, I have no idea how much better it can get. It's just so easy to check alignments now that I understand how to use REW to do it. It would most likely take an hour or two and I don't know whether it would improve anything.

The best solution would be for Anthem to include distance testing into Genesis like Audessy already does.
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post #276 of 716 Old 06-26-2019, 07:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchlampert View Post
Thanks and yes, I have no idea how much better it can get. It's just so easy to check alignments now that I understand how to use REW to do it. It would most likely take an hour or two and I don't know whether it would improve anything.

The best solution would be for Anthem to include distance testing into Genesis like Audessy already does.
Time alignment is only good for a single spot in a room. Move your head or switch seats and it's no longer relevant. Anthem does not think it's important and it's not worth using REW if the only adjustment that can be made is in feet. Although with subs that may have a dramatically different acoustic vs. physical distance it might be worth using REW. But for typical loudspeakers, it is probably good enough just to physically measure distances.

I can use my amps to time align all my channels to within fractions of an inch with the mic position, and have done so in the past. Hard to say if it's worth it since expectation bias makes figuring out if it really makes a difference very difficult. Can't A/B it easily.
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post #277 of 716 Old 06-26-2019, 08:40 AM - Thread Starter
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REW and subs

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Time alignment is only good for a single spot in a room. Move your head or switch seats and it's no longer relevant. Anthem does not think it's important and it's not worth using REW if the only adjustment that can be made is in feet. Although with subs that may have a dramatically different acoustic vs. physical distance it might be worth using REW. But for typical loudspeakers, it is probably good enough just to physically measure distances.

I can use my amps to time align all my channels to within fractions of an inch with the mic position, and have done so in the past. Hard to say if it's worth it since expectation bias makes figuring out if it really makes a difference very difficult. Can't A/B it easily.
I agree that REW was very helpful for adjusting sub distance. We have two theater seats and am only interested in maximizing those. Based on what Gooddoc is saying, would be no reason for me to measure individual speakers, which is really what my feeling is in general that I've got such a wonderful sounding system with Genesis that there is no good reason for me to obsess further.
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post #278 of 716 Old 06-26-2019, 09:21 PM
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Initial REW measurements following MSO and Genesis calibration. My right seat is not so good.

1-6 smoothing at each of my three seating locations, 80 Hz crossover.


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post #279 of 716 Old 06-27-2019, 07:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Thank you Anthem

After adjusting input gain setting for one of my speakers, decided to run the latest beta, 1.1.0.9006 Surprisingly, genesis required me to lower my sub volume by 3 from where it was on the previous calibration. It then set the sub calibration to 6 instead of 3 with a gain of 4 instead of 3. This resulted in a sub setting of 10 rather than the previous 6. Strange. The other speakers all had slightly different calibrations than previously. I don't know whether they changed the logarithm or it is just the vagaries of chance.
But, here is the really good news. Anthem has re-introduced the actual calibration numbers in the pdf. I had 3 over 12 ( 13,13 and 14). This made it very easy to lower all of the calibrations by 2.
I only had 5 minutes to listen before leaving for work. It sounded very good, but I won't really know until the weekend how it sounds. But I am grateful to Anthem for giving us this information again.
On closer Examination, the extended calibration numbers are only included in the first 3 profiles. The 4th limits information to 12+. Since all 4 profiles are based on the same set of measurements, I assume this is some kind of programming error. Either Anthem didn't intend to include this information with the first 3 profiles or they inadvertently failed to include it with the 4th.
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Last edited by WLC; 06-28-2019 at 04:48 AM. Reason: Closer Examination
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post #280 of 716 Old 06-29-2019, 12:21 AM
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REW vs ARC Genesis FR Measurements

Can anyone explain a discrepancy between REW and ARC Genesis? I'm at a complete loss for words. Today I used REW to position my subs (dual PSA-3010s), adjusted AVM sub distance and sub delay for best response using REW, then ran ARC Genesis. However, the frequency response readings I get from REW and ARC are dramatically different. Attached are the Pre and Post ARC frequency response from REW and ARC. The REW reading was from the MLP whereas the ARC graph is the result of 5 measurements; one at the MLP and four others within 12 inches of the MLP. Looking at the REW measurements, it appears as if ARC created a huge null around 75 Hz. To add to the confusion, the REW measurement just prior to ARC doesn't at all resemble the ARC Genesis initial measurement curve....they should match fairly closely but don't at all. I'm beginning to think one of the mics is bad. I've had the ARC mic for 3 years; the UMIK-1 I bought in the last few days. Can anyone help explain? I'll have a MiniDSP 2x4 HD in a few days and planned to use it to build a house curve post-Genesis for the subs but such a huge null apparently created by Genesis is not correctable I don't think. With the exception of the apparent null created by Genesis, the system sounds great. Attached are pics of the REW measurements pre- and post- ARC as well as the sub ARC measurement. Thanks for any advice!
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Last edited by creasyb001; 06-29-2019 at 12:24 AM. Reason: Typo/Clarity
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post #281 of 716 Old 06-29-2019, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by creasyb001 View Post
Can anyone explain a discrepancy between REW and ARC Genesis? I'm at a complete loss for words. Today I used REW to position my subs (dual PSA-3010s), adjusted AVM sub distance and sub delay for best response using REW, then ran ARC Genesis. However, the frequency response readings I get from REW and ARC are dramatically different. Attached are the Pre and Post ARC frequency response from REW and ARC. The REW reading was from the MLP whereas the ARC graph is the result of 5 measurements; one at the MLP and four others within 12 inches of the MLP. Looking at the REW measurements, it appears as if ARC created a huge null around 75 Hz. To add to the confusion, the REW measurement just prior to ARC doesn't at all resemble the ARC Genesis initial measurement curve....they should match fairly closely but don't at all. I'm beginning to think one of the mics is bad. I've had the ARC mic for 3 years; the UMIK-1 I bought in the last few days. Can anyone help explain? I'll have a MiniDSP 2x4 HD in a few days and planned to use it to build a house curve post-Genesis for the subs but such a huge null apparently created by Genesis is not correctable I don't think. With the exception of the apparent null created by Genesis, the system sounds great. Attached are pics of the REW measurements pre- and post- ARC as well as the sub ARC measurement. Thanks for any advice!
Im just guessing here. If you ran a sweep from your umik from one location. Thats one measurement only. If you run ARC from multiple locations, it will average those locations. Each mic position will differ. For example, my left seat has a null that my right seat doesnt have. Maybe, ARCs average of all the mic positions means there is a null. Maybe try running rew from the same mic positions as you used with ARC? I could be totally wrong though just guessing
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post #282 of 716 Old 06-29-2019, 05:17 PM
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Hi

Newbie question here.

Im having heaps of fun moving my two huge 1600 ultras around my room trying to find the best measurement via REW

Apart from the health benefits , im not having much luck. Large cancellation no matter where i position them.

Anyway, i thought id try adjusting sub distance to see if that made a difference.

Someone told me it can help with nulls sometimes

So i set distances on my AVM 60 . Before running ARC. So ARC is disabled at this point

Then ill move the subs

Then run REW.

Problem im having is , not matter how i set the distance of the subs, it makes absolutely no difference to the REW measurement?

What am i missing here? Ive seen on youtube with Audessy when the distance is altered it changes the REW measurement?
Why not with Anthem? I must be missing something. Doesnt make sense to run ARC first to me.

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post #283 of 716 Old 06-29-2019, 07:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adya11 View Post
Hi

Newbie question here.

Im having heaps of fun moving my two huge 1600 ultras around my room trying to find the best measurement via REW

Apart from the health benefits , im not having much luck. Large cancellation no matter where i position them.

Anyway, i thought id try adjusting sub distance to see if that made a difference.

Someone told me it can help with nulls sometimes

So i set distances on my AVM 60 . Before running ARC. So ARC is disabled at this point

Then ill move the subs

Then run REW.

Problem im having is , not matter how i set the distance of the subs, it makes absolutely no difference to the REW measurement?

What am i missing here? Ive seen on youtube with Audessy when the distance is altered it changes the REW measurement?
Why not with Anthem? I must be missing something. Doesnt make sense to run ARC first to me.

You want to do all of the sub tweaking before running ARC because you want ARC to start with the flattest/best response possible. Note that you'll have to time align your subs as well if they are different distances from your MLP. You'll need the miniDSP for that.

1. Set your subwoofer distance to zero to start. Use the ARC quick measure tool to place your subs (one at a time) in the locations that produces the flattest/best response for each sub. Even try having your subs face the walls. Try lots of things, the best result may surprise you.
1a. Now time align your subs if needed. There are a couple ways to do this. Either use REW, which is very precise and pretty easy, or use a tape measure and calculator.

2. Run the subs together with one of your front channels and try every distance setting in the AVR between probably 6 and 25 feet or so and measure each result with REW. Pick the distance that produces the flattest/best response around the crossover point. Don't be surprised if the best distance is much longer than the physical distance. The distance setting mostly only makes a difference around the crossover point, which is why you need to run it with one of your front speakers in REW to see the differences (refer to the attached picture).

3. That should give you the best starting position for using ARC and no more tweaking the subs outside of ARC, so now you can run ARC and let it make the final tweaks.
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post #284 of 716 Old 06-29-2019, 08:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluecow003 View Post
You want to do all of the sub tweaking before running ARC because you want ARC to start with the flattest/best response possible. Note that you'll have to time align your subs as well if they are different distances from your MLP. You'll need the miniDSP for that.

1. Set your subwoofer distance to zero to start. Use the ARC quick measure tool to place your subs (one at a time) in the locations that produces the flattest/best response for each sub. Even try having your subs face the walls. Try lots of things, the best result may surprise you.
1a. Now time align your subs if needed. There are a couple ways to do this. Either use REW, which is very precise and pretty easy, or use a tape measure and calculator.

2. Run the subs together with one of your front channels and try every distance setting in the AVR between probably 6 and 25 feet or so and measure each result with REW. Pick the distance that produces the flattest/best response around the crossover point. Don't be surprised if the best distance is much longer than the physical distance. The distance setting mostly only makes a difference around the crossover point, which is why you need to run it with one of your front speakers in REW to see the differences (refer to the attached picture).

3. That should give you the best starting position for using ARC and no more tweaking the subs outside of ARC, so now you can run ARC and let it make the final tweaks.
Thanks.
ill read up on time alignment using REW. I havnt seen or read anything on REW that allows you to adjust time alignment.
Can you point me in the direction of where that function is? thks

Also, i tried setting distances on my AVM 60 processor. It wont do anything. I can set 1000 metres or half a metre. doesnt change anything
Im not sure why. I think with Anthem, the speaker distances only work after i run ARC. Prior to that its zero no matter what you set it at

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post #285 of 716 Old 06-29-2019, 08:33 PM
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These are the best 3 i could come up with .

I just cant keep moving these huge subs around lol

the bright orange/yellowy measure is both subs inside of main speakers front of room facing MLP

Thats where theyll currently stay for now i think

Opinions on which looks best out of the 3?

* Also, I keep hearing how useful MiniDSP is in EQing subs.
What benefit would a MiniDSP have over ARC? Isnt it basically the same thing?
ARC will EQ peaks and dips. using Minidsp will EQ peaks and dips??
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Last edited by adya11; 06-29-2019 at 09:14 PM.
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post #286 of 716 Old 06-30-2019, 06:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adya11 View Post
Hi


Anyway, i thought id try adjusting sub distance to see if that made a difference.


Problem im having is , not matter how i set the distance of the subs, it makes absolutely no difference to the REW measurement?

What am i missing here? Ive seen on youtube with Audessy when the distance is altered it changes the REW measurement?
Why not with Anthem? I must be missing something. Doesnt make sense to run ARC first to me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluecow003 View Post
2. Run the subs together with one of your front channels and try every distance setting in the AVR between probably 6 and 25 feet or so and measure each result with REW. Pick the distance that produces the flattest/best response around the crossover point. Don't be surprised if the best distance is much longer than the physical distance. The distance setting mostly only makes a difference around the crossover point, which is why you need to run it with one of your front speakers in REW to see the differences (refer to the attached picture).
After time aligning my 2 subs with each other with Quick Sweep and then REW prior to ARC cailibration, setting the distance in with REW along with my center speaker resulted in 16 ft when physically they are only 10 ft. I always check and reset the distance after ARC to tweak a little if needed.
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post #287 of 716 Old 06-30-2019, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by creasyb001 View Post
Can anyone explain a discrepancy between REW and ARC Genesis? I'm at a complete loss for words. Today I used REW to position my subs (dual PSA-3010s), adjusted AVM sub distance and sub delay for best response using REW, then ran ARC Genesis. However, the frequency response readings I get from REW and ARC are dramatically different. Attached are the Pre and Post ARC frequency response from REW and ARC. The REW reading was from the MLP whereas the ARC graph is the result of 5 measurements; one at the MLP and four others within 12 inches of the MLP. Looking at the REW measurements, it appears as if ARC created a huge null around 75 Hz. To add to the confusion, the REW measurement just prior to ARC doesn't at all resemble the ARC Genesis initial measurement curve....they should match fairly closely but don't at all. I'm beginning to think one of the mics is bad. I've had the ARC mic for 3 years; the UMIK-1 I bought in the last few days. Can anyone help explain? I'll have a MiniDSP 2x4 HD in a few days and planned to use it to build a house curve post-Genesis for the subs but such a huge null apparently created by Genesis is not correctable I don't think. With the exception of the apparent null created by Genesis, the system sounds great. Attached are pics of the REW measurements pre- and post- ARC as well as the sub ARC measurement. Thanks for any advice!
As adya11 mentioned, the measurement you made for your sub using REW was a single measurement form one position. The Genesis response you're seeing is a combination of 5 measurements. Response can change drastically from one position to another, so comparing the single REW to an averaged Genesis measurement should look quite a bit different.

To test your mics for accuracy of measurements, place your REW mic in MLP and measure. Then swap out the mic with the Anthem mic and run a quick measure on just your subwoofer channel in Genesis and save the graph for comparison (ARC should be OFF for this comparison). These single measurements from one position should look pretty similar with the exception of the overall volume. You can do this comparison on any other single mic position and compare. You just cannot expect a single position measurement to closely match a multiple position averaged response curve.

Also, wait until after running Genesis to adjust sub distance in the Anthem to time align your sub and mains. You'll need to know the crossover point Genesis selects before you can properly integrate.

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post #288 of 716 Old 06-30-2019, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adya11 View Post
Thanks.
ill read up on time alignment using REW. I havnt seen or read anything on REW that allows you to adjust time alignment.
Can you point me in the direction of where that function is? thks

Also, i tried setting distances on my AVM 60 processor. It wont do anything. I can set 1000 metres or half a metre. doesnt change anything
Im not sure why. I think with Anthem, the speaker distances only work after i run ARC. Prior to that its zero no matter what you set it at
Keep in mind, things need to be done in the proper order or you will chase your tail all day.

When you adjust the subwoofer distance in the AVM, you are simply telling the processor WHEN to play the signal. It does not alter the frequency of the signal at all. If you are measuring only the subwoofer, the sub distance in the Anthem will not change your sub response if you haven't moved your subs.

When we talk about aligning the distance BETWEEN MULTIPLE SUBS, you are not using the sub distance setting in the Anthem. You must use a device like a miniDSP. The miniDSP takes the single sub output signal from the Anthem and splits it to your individual subs through the miniDSP outputs. It is in the individual minDSP outputs where you can adjust the delays between your subwoofers to get the best response between one another to produce a combined sub output that is optimized. Once you get your subs playing nice with one another, then you run Genesis and view the crossover frequency it selects for your L/R/C.

Now you use REW to view a combined response with your mains and subs playing together. This is the time to adjust the subwoofer distance setting in the Anthem to produce the best response in the crossover region that Genesis selected. Remember, the reason you are doing this is that Genesis never plays a test tone with both your subs and mains at the same time. It plays them individually and then guesses based on the distance settings you entered. So using REW after Genesis, you can now play them at the same time and optimize their combined response.

This post covers everything you should need for proper integration.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...ow-thread.html

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post #289 of 716 Old 06-30-2019, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by adya11 View Post
Thanks.
ill read up on time alignment using REW. I havnt seen or read anything on REW that allows you to adjust time alignment.
Can you point me in the direction of where that function is? thks

Also, i tried setting distances on my AVM 60 processor. It wont do anything. I can set 1000 metres or half a metre. doesnt change anything
Im not sure why. I think with Anthem, the speaker distances only work after i run ARC. Prior to that its zero no matter what you set it at

Download this miniDSP guide. It explains how to use REW to do it.


https://www.dropbox.com/s/w7jmpozner...%20Version.pdf

7.2.4 Setup | Display: LG 77" C8 OLED | Blu-ray: Oppo UDP-203 | Processor: Anthem AVM60 | Amps: Outlaw 7700, Emotiva XPA-5 Gen 2 | Speakers: Paradigm Prestige (2) 95F's, 55C, (4) 15B's, (4) CI-Elite E65-R (Atmos) | Subs: (2) Rythmik F25's
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post #290 of 716 Old 06-30-2019, 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by adya11 View Post
These are the best 3 i could come up with .

I just cant keep moving these huge subs around lol

the bright orange/yellowy measure is both subs inside of main speakers front of room facing MLP

Thats where theyll currently stay for now i think

Opinions on which looks best out of the 3?

* Also, I keep hearing how useful MiniDSP is in EQing subs.
What benefit would a MiniDSP have over ARC? Isnt it basically the same thing?
ARC will EQ peaks and dips. using Minidsp will EQ peaks and dips??

What exactly is the difference between the measurements? What did you change between them? The purple one probably looks better, but what is probably more important is how the subs integrate with the main speakers, which isn't shown in those graphs.


A miniDSP can also be used to manually EQ subs, but it's probably not worth it when you have ARC since ARC will take care of that for you. Using the miniDSP to do the EQ is beneficial if you have room correction software that either doesn't EQ the subs (unlike ARC) or doesn't do it well. Or if you're just really into DIY and love to tinker with different adjustments. People primarily use the miniDSP to time align multiple subs, add a custom house curve to their subs, and/or use it for BassEQ to recover lost low frequencies in movies.
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7.2.4 Setup | Display: LG 77" C8 OLED | Blu-ray: Oppo UDP-203 | Processor: Anthem AVM60 | Amps: Outlaw 7700, Emotiva XPA-5 Gen 2 | Speakers: Paradigm Prestige (2) 95F's, 55C, (4) 15B's, (4) CI-Elite E65-R (Atmos) | Subs: (2) Rythmik F25's
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post #291 of 716 Old 06-30-2019, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adya11 View Post
Thanks.
ill read up on time alignment using REW. I havnt seen or read anything on REW that allows you to adjust time alignment.
Can you point me in the direction of where that function is? thks

Also, i tried setting distances on my AVM 60 processor. It wont do anything. I can set 1000 metres or half a metre. doesnt change anything
Im not sure why. I think with Anthem, the speaker distances only work after i run ARC. Prior to that its zero no matter what you set it at
Keep in mind, things need to be done in the proper order or you will chase your tail all day.

When you adjust the subwoofer distance in the AVM, you are simply telling the processor WHEN to play the signal. It does not alter the frequency of the signal at all. If you are measuring only the subwoofer, the sub distance in the Anthem will not change your sub response if you haven't moved your subs.

When we talk about aligning the distance BETWEEN MULTIPLE SUBS, you are not using the sub distance setting in the Anthem. You must use a device like a miniDSP. The miniDSP takes the single sub output signal from the Anthem and splits it to your individual subs through the miniDSP outputs. It is in the individual minDSP outputs where you can adjust the delays between your subwoofers to get the best response between one another to produce a combined sub output that is optimized. Once you get your subs playing nice with one another, then you run Genesis and view the crossover frequency it selects for your L/R/C.

Now you use REW to view a combined response with your mains and subs playing together. This is the time to adjust the subwoofer distance setting in the Anthem to produce the best response in the crossover region that Genesis selected. Remember, the reason you are doing this is that Genesis never plays a test tone with both your subs and mains at the same time. It plays them individually and then guesses based on the distance settings you entered. So using REW after Genesis, you can now play them at the same time and optimize their combined response.

This post covers everything you should need for proper integration.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...ow-thread.html
Great info gys
Thank you for all the advice. Ive noted down all suggestions.
Im still in two minds about investing in a mini dsp
On one hand ARC does most of it. But as others mentions time alignment can be achieved via mindsp
So still deciding
My strategy was to find the best sub location via rew
Then run measurements with mains to see how they integrate
Ill follow your suggestions
Thks
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post #292 of 716 Old 06-30-2019, 06:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gbreda View Post
After time aligning my 2 subs with each other with Quick Sweep and then REW prior to ARC cailibration, setting the distance in with REW along with my center speaker resulted in 16 ft when physically they are only 10 ft. I always check and reset the distance after ARC to tweak a little if needed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by adya11 View Post
These are the best 3 i could come up with .

I just cant keep moving these huge subs around lol

the bright orange/yellowy measure is both subs inside of main speakers front of room facing MLP

Thats where theyll currently stay for now i think

Opinions on which looks best out of the 3?

* Also, I keep hearing how useful MiniDSP is in EQing subs.
What benefit would a MiniDSP have over ARC? Isnt it basically the same thing?
ARC will EQ peaks and dips. using Minidsp will EQ peaks and dips??
I am just guessing what has gone wrong here, but it seems that there is some misunderstanding about what time alignment of a subwoofer means, and how it can be measured and adjusted. I started this reply earlier, but ran out of time (church) and now Bittermidget has posted a very useful response that I think gets at what may be wrong. Since I started my reply, I’ll try and explain what I think is going wrong with your process at perhaps a more basic level.

When you run ARC, it measures the various speaker frequency responses and calculates PEQ values to optimize that response for the various speakers. It also analyzes the best crossover frequency so that the various speakers, e.g. the front speakers and the subwoofer(s) play together nicely in terms of their measured frequency responses. It then loads all these values into the AVM 60 – a wonderful almost fully automated process.

What is missing is that all the ARC calculations assume that in the crossover region the woofers in the front speakers and the subwoofer are in phase. When a front speaker is pushing air, then the subwoofer should also be pushing air so that when their respective sound fronts arrive at the seating positions, they reinforce each other. If one speaker is pushing and the other pulling air, then the sound front from the two speakers will interfere with each other and cancel the sound rather than reinforce the sound.

Getting all the speakers to deliver their sound in a coherent manner with the other speakers is what time alignment is all about. Entering the speaker distance into the AVM 60 is the way you adjust for the fact that speakers that are farther away from the listening position need a head start to get their sound time aligned with a speaker that is nearer. With speakers, other than subwoofers, simply entering the measured distance is all you need to do, but for various reasons, subwoofers can act like they are farther away than the tape measure would indicate. And that is why we need to use REW measurements to get the subwoofer distance correct and the subwoofer playing nicely with the other speakers in terms of timing or phase.

There are a couple of ways of doing this using REW, first, looking at the frequency response of how a front speaker AND the subwoofer’s COMBINED frequency response varies with the subwoofer distance, and second, using the impulse response tab. I think what you may have been doing wrong is either running frequency response measurements as a function of subwoofer distance using only the subwoofer, or with the level of the subwoofer so high that its response dominates the overall frequency response measurement. If only the subwoofer is playing, you can’t measure how it interacts with any other speaker – hence no change in the measured response.

So, pick a front speaker in REW, either the center or the front speaker closest to the sub, and run the measurements as a function of subwoofer distance as set in the AVM 60. DO NOT select a speaker AND the sub in REW as that doubles the sub response and might cause it to dominate. Just chose a speaker and REW will send a full range signal to the AVM 60 and the AVM 60 will send the right frequencies to the sub as per the crossover set by your ARC measurements. Choose the distance with the flattest response in the crossover region.

The second method is to use the impulse response tab with a measurement of the sub only. In this case it will measure the time response of the sub relative to the reference timing pulse from the speaker you are using for the timing reference in REW . Even though you are only sending signal for measurement to the sub, it is looking at the timing of the sub’s response relative to the timing pulse from the reference speaker. So again, it is looking at how the two speakers are time aligned. Read the REW guide as to how to do this. This is how I set my sub distance as it is much more straightforward. Hopefully I find the time someday to also look at the frequency response as a function of distance, as I would be interested in how they compare.
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SONY VPL-VW385ES, Da-Lite 92" 0.9 HD progressive 16x9 screen, Apple TV 4K, HDFury Integral 2, Oppo UDP 203, Panasonic DP-UB820, Anthem AVM 60, D-Sonic 4000 (800x3, 400x4) for bed layer, 2 Crown XLS 1002 (225x4) for Atmos; Speakers: Polk LSiM 705s, 703 front, 4 702F/X surround, 4 Polk TL3 (Atmos), Dual Velodyne DD15 Subwoofers.
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post #293 of 716 Old 06-30-2019, 06:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shs1234 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by gbreda View Post
After time aligning my 2 subs with each other with Quick Sweep and then REW prior to ARC cailibration, setting the distance in with REW along with my center speaker resulted in 16 ft when physically they are only 10 ft. I always check and reset the distance after ARC to tweak a little if needed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by adya11 View Post
These are the best 3 i could come up with .

I just cant keep moving these huge subs around lol

the bright orange/yellowy measure is both subs inside of main speakers front of room facing MLP

Thats where theyll currently stay for now i think

Opinions on which looks best out of the 3?

* Also, I keep hearing how useful MiniDSP is in EQing subs.
What benefit would a MiniDSP have over ARC? Isnt it basically the same thing?
ARC will EQ peaks and dips. using Minidsp will EQ peaks and dips??
I am just guessing what has gone wrong here, but it seems that there is some misunderstanding about what time alignment of a subwoofer means, and how it can be measured and adjusted. I started this reply earlier, but ran out of time (church) and now Bittermidget has posted a very useful response that I think gets at what may be wrong. Since I started my reply, I’️ll try and explain what I think is going wrong with your process at perhaps a more basic level.

When you run ARC, it measures the various speaker frequency responses and calculates PEQ values to optimize that response for the various speakers. It also analyzes the best crossover frequency so that the various speakers, e.g. the front speakers and the subwoofer(s) play together nicely in terms of their measured frequency responses. It then loads all these values into the AVM 60 – a wonderful almost fully automated process.

What is missing is that all the ARC calculations assume that in the crossover region the woofers in the front speakers and the subwoofer are in phase. When a front speaker is pushing air, then the subwoofer should also be pushing air so that when their respective sound fronts arrive at the seating positions, they reinforce each other. If one speaker is pushing and the other pulling air, then the sound front from the two speakers will interfere with each other and cancel the sound rather than reinforce the sound.

Getting all the speakers to deliver their sound in a coherent manner with the other speakers is what time alignment is all about. Entering the speaker distance into the AVM 60 is the way you adjust for the fact that speakers that are farther away from the listening position need a head start to get their sound time aligned with a speaker that is nearer. With speakers, other than subwoofers, simply entering the measured distance is all you need to do, but for various reasons, subwoofers can act like they are farther away than the tape measure would indicate. And that is why we need to use REW measurements to get the subwoofer distance correct and the subwoofer playing nicely with the other speakers in terms of timing or phase.

There are a couple of ways of doing this using REW, first, looking at the frequency response of how a front speaker AND the subwoofer’️s COMBINED frequency response varies with the subwoofer distance, and second, using the impulse response tab. I think what you may have been doing wrong is either running frequency response measurements as a function of subwoofer distance using only the subwoofer, or with the level of the subwoofer so high that its response dominates the overall frequency response measurement. If only the subwoofer is playing, you can’️t measure how it interacts with any other speaker – hence no change in the measured response.

So, pick a front speaker in REW, either the center or the front speaker closest to the sub, and run the measurements as a function of subwoofer distance as set in the AVM 60. DO NOT select a speaker AND the sub in REW as that doubles the sub response and might cause it to dominate. Just chose a speaker and REW will send a full range signal to the AVM 60 and the AVM 60 will send the right frequencies to the sub as per the crossover set by your ARC measurements. Choose the distance with the flattest response in the crossover region.

The second method is to use the impulse response tab with a measurement of the sub only. In this case it will measure the time response of the sub relative to the reference timing pulse from the speaker you are using for the timing reference in REW . Even though you are only sending signal for measurement to the sub, it is looking at the timing of the sub’️s response relative to the timing pulse from the reference speaker. So again, it is looking at how the two speakers are time aligned. Read the REW guide as to how to do this. This is how I set my sub distance as it is much more straightforward. Hopefully I find the time someday to also look at the frequency response as a function of distance, as I would be interested in how they compare.
Wow !
Thank you very much for such an easy to understand and elaborate explanation
I have copied your post and will definitely put it to use in my next attemp
My wife allowed me 2 days to do this. Now its her time off from the kids etc
So hopefully later this week i can get into it again
Based on the basic subs only measurements i did, ive moved both subs to the front are in between each main speaker. Most peeps have that way anyway. Ill run in conjunction with a main speaker as suggested asap
Thanks again gys
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post #294 of 716 Old 06-30-2019, 07:08 PM
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So what's the word on the second version of the beta? I've been out of the loop.

Video: JVC RS620/X9500 projector, Stewart ST130 screen, Panasonic ub820 UHD player
Audio: Anthem AVM60 preamp, Anthem MCA525 amp, B&K Reference 125.7 amp
Subs: dual SVS PC-12 cylinders
Speakers: RBH SV-661R and SV-661CR fronts, Jamo 626k4 side/rear surrounds, DefTech DI6.5R heights
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post #295 of 716 Old 07-01-2019, 04:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shs1234 View Post
Spoiler!


I align dual subs with each other using quick sweep first to rough it in and then and REW by adjusting the delay at the 2 sub amps. Then let ARC see them as one sub since ARC does not align them first-in my opinion this is a shortcoming of Anthem vs other RC and must be done if you have multiple subs.

Then I use REW to set the sub distance while referencing the center speaker to make sure there is no cancellation at the crossover point.

Sorry for not being clear.
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post #296 of 716 Old 07-01-2019, 07:55 AM
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Dealing with dual subs does add a layer of complication, but not so much in certain special cases that are worth considering, and that is one of imposed symmetry. I have two Velodyne DD-15s and they are placed symmetrically in the room, near the two front corners. My seating is also symmetrical relative to the long axis of the room and I want my wife to experience the same excellent sound at her chair that I get at mine. This is not only a good goal, it simplifies the calibration process.

I used REW and the built in PEQ on my DD-15s to get the subs' response as good as possible at my seat, being careful to level match and put equal corrections into the two DD15s, essentially treating them as one. And because of the symmetry involved, only one distance is needed and therefore no need for a mini-DSP. I checked the subs' response at my wife’s seat and as expected it was equally good. Since I knew ARC would pick 80 Hz as the crossover frequency for my front speakers, I was also able to use the impulse response tab to set the subwoofer distance at this point. I than ran ARC 2, treating the two subs as one, and all was well. One DD-15 is great, but two are even better as now a much wider seating area gets good bass.

With ARC Genesis I was able to set up a house curve to my liking and things got amazing. I certainly don’t need any butt-kickers to get my chair shaking with any number of scenes with BR 2049.

Let me add that when finished with ARC Genesis, I symmetrized the levels to reflect the symmetrical nature of the speakers and seating, i.e. I set the left and right front speaker levels to their average level and did the same for the surround levels. I don’t want my wife blasted by the right surround speaker because ARC set the levels to be equal to the left surround at my seat on the left side of the room. It would be handy if there was an option to do this automatically.

SONY VPL-VW385ES, Da-Lite 92" 0.9 HD progressive 16x9 screen, Apple TV 4K, HDFury Integral 2, Oppo UDP 203, Panasonic DP-UB820, Anthem AVM 60, D-Sonic 4000 (800x3, 400x4) for bed layer, 2 Crown XLS 1002 (225x4) for Atmos; Speakers: Polk LSiM 705s, 703 front, 4 702F/X surround, 4 Polk TL3 (Atmos), Dual Velodyne DD15 Subwoofers.

Last edited by shs1234; 07-01-2019 at 04:15 PM.
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post #297 of 716 Old 07-01-2019, 03:57 PM
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Best Mic Position?

Hey Guys. I have an AVM 60 and I am having trouble finding the best mic position as I have never used ARC before.

My ears are 39.5 inches from the floor. The back of my couch is 37.5 inches. So my ears barely clear the back of the couch.

On the Audyssey forum they recommend putting your mic as close as 3-5 inches from the back of the couch. They recommend putting a heavy blanket over the back of the couch to tame reflections. Is this recommended for ARC as well? As my ears are up against the back of the couch how far forward should I take my first measurement?

The Audyssey forum also does NOT recommend going behind the sofa. They recommend keeping your measurements in front of the sofa where you ears reside. Would you guys recommend taking measurements behind the sofa as well even though the mic will barely clear the sofa?

When doing measurements do you guys keep 2 feet between mic positions? Again, Audyssey recommends a tight cluster, no more than 18 inches, around the main listening position.

Lastly, is the recommended "X" pattern the best way to go? This would put two of the measurements at least 2 feet behind my sofa. The only way to avoid this would be to take my first measurement at least 2 feet in front of my ears.

I'll take any and all advice! Is there a recommend mic position guide out there somewhere other than the brief guide found on Anthem's site?

Thanks guys!

Brian R. Smith
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post #298 of 716 Old 07-01-2019, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Bghead8che View Post
Hey Guys. I have an AVM 60 and I am having trouble finding the best mic position as I have never used ARC before.

My ears are 39.5 inches from the floor. The back of my couch is 37.5 inches. So my ears barely clear the back of the couch.

On the Audyssey forum they recommend putting your mic as close as 3-5 inches from the back of the couch. They recommend putting a heavy blanket over the back of the couch to tame reflections. Is this recommended for ARC as well? As my ears are up against the back of the couch how far forward should I take my first measurement?

The Audyssey forum also does NOT recommend going behind the sofa. They recommend keeping your measurements in front of the sofa where you ears reside. Would you guys recommend taking measurements behind the sofa as well even though the mic will barely clear the sofa?

When doing measurements do you guys keep 2 feet between mic positions? Again, Audyssey recommends a tight cluster, no more than 18 inches, around the main listening position.

Lastly, is the recommended "X" pattern the best way to go? This would put two of the measurements at least 2 feet behind my sofa. The only way to avoid this would be to take my first measurement at least 2 feet in front of my ears.

I'll take any and all advice! Is there a recommend mic position guide out there somewhere other than the brief guide found on Anthem's site?

Thanks guys!
If the back of your sofa is soft, I don't see the need for a heavy blanket. As to measurements in front of and behind your sofa, the real question is how far is the sofa from the back wall as ideally you would not make any measurements within 2 feet of the wall. If your sofa is not right against the wall, I would recommend the first position at or slightly ahead of where your head will be, and then two measurements to the left and right in front of the sofa and two measurements behind – the recommended X pattern.

Frankly, I have my own questions about mic positions with ARC Genesis and have sent and email to tech support but that is what I have used so far. I also raised the mic 6" for one measurement and lowered it for another. In your case, the lower measurement would want to be in front of the sofa and the back two raised.

SONY VPL-VW385ES, Da-Lite 92" 0.9 HD progressive 16x9 screen, Apple TV 4K, HDFury Integral 2, Oppo UDP 203, Panasonic DP-UB820, Anthem AVM 60, D-Sonic 4000 (800x3, 400x4) for bed layer, 2 Crown XLS 1002 (225x4) for Atmos; Speakers: Polk LSiM 705s, 703 front, 4 702F/X surround, 4 Polk TL3 (Atmos), Dual Velodyne DD15 Subwoofers.
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post #299 of 716 Old 07-01-2019, 05:16 PM
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@Bghead8che , Audyssey is a completely different room correction system with different algorithms than ARC. You can't use Audyssey's recommended mic positions with ARC. Anthem recommends the X pattern and the distance for the mic positions because that is what works best with their algorithms. The X pattern ARC has works very well and has produced the best sounding music and movies I've ever heard in my room.
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post #300 of 716 Old 07-01-2019, 06:01 PM
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@Bghead8che : I suggest you start with the Anthem-recommended positions, then experiment and find out what works best in your configuration.

I have done that to get best results in my system. Because mine uses rather directional speakers and typically there is only one listener, I have reduced the size of the X considerably. (And I do not measure behind the back of the seat.)

That works for me; I'm not saying it will work best for you, but I am saying the Anthem recommendations won't work best for everyone.

Mike (Portland, Oregon -- no longer in North Carolina)

Main 2.2 system: Synology NAS, Auralic Aries G1 streamer, Anthem STR (DAC-)Preamp, Bryston 4B3 amp, Janszen Valentina mains, 2x JL Audio F112 subs. Desktop 2.1 system: JRiver Media Center, Classe CP-800 DAC-preamp, Marsh A400s power amp, Harbeth P3ESR, B&W ASW610.
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