Dedicated ARC Genesis thread - Page 11 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #301 of 716 Old 07-02-2019, 04:41 AM
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I ended up using the Audyssey method and it worked very well. I'm only concerned about my seat in my theater so kept a tight pattern of 8 measurements, all either in my seated plane or in front. No measurements behind my seats as I don't understand why those would be important since I never sit there. To me the goal of measurements is for the software to understand room behavior as it impacts where your ears might be. The main listening position should be wherever your ears will be most of the time. The remaining measurements are where your ears might be from time to time. It's my opinion that Anthem is trying to match the frequency response of every speaker in your system at your MLP. That way, your system as a whole, sounds like a unit and as a sound pans from channel to channel, you can't hear a tonal difference. It also tries to match the SPL's of each channel but in my experience, doesn't do as good a job of that as I can do with a SPL meter. After that, making your system sound good to you is up to you by playing with "Adjust Targets".

The nice part about Anthem and I assume Audyssey is that you can remeasure over and over, comparing differing patterns until you find what works. There probably isn't one right way for every room and system.
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post #302 of 716 Old 07-02-2019, 07:25 AM
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I'm in the process of calibrating dual subs and ordered a miniDSP 2x4 HD. I'll be using MSO, REW, the miniDSP and of course ARC. To this point I've selected the best location for the subs and experimented with the AVM60 sub distance settings and sub delay for best FR then ran ARC. I think I have a fairly good understanding of the next steps using MSO and the miniDSP but am hung up on when to run ARC and the appropriate AVM60 sub distance setting to use since MSO would have already determined the appropriate phase/time alignment.

Is one of these workflows correct? Should I set AVM60 sub distance to zero?

1. Run MSO (ARC off), then ARC in professional mode, then use REW to create house curve (ARC on)
2. Run MSO (ARC off), then use REW to create house curve (ARC off), then ARC in professional mode, fine tune house curve with REW (ARC on)

Thanks in advance for any advice.

Sony 665es 4K Projector; SI Black Diamond 133"
Anthem AVM60 Pre-Pro; Anthem 525 and 325 Amps
Oppo UDP-203 4K UHD Blu Ray Player, Roku Ultra, Apple TV4, PS4
Paradigm Persona 3F (fronts), Paradigm Prestige 45C center, Bryston Mini A (rears), M&K IW-95 (surrounds), dual PSA S3010 subs
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post #303 of 716 Old 07-02-2019, 07:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by creasyb001 View Post
I'm in the process of calibrating dual subs and ordered a miniDSP 2x4 HD. I'll be using MSO, REW, the miniDSP and of course ARC. To this point I've selected the best location for the subs and experimented with the AVM60 sub distance settings and sub delay for best FR then ran ARC. I think I have a fairly good understanding of the next steps using MSO and the miniDSP but am hung up on when to run ARC and the appropriate AVM60 sub distance setting to use since MSO would have already determined the appropriate phase/time alignment.

Is one of these workflows correct? Should I set AVM60 sub distance to zero?

1. Run MSO (ARC off), then ARC in professional mode, then use REW to create house curve (ARC on)
2. Run MSO (ARC off), then use REW to create house curve (ARC off), then ARC in professional mode, fine tune house curve with REW (ARC on)

Thanks in advance for any advice.
Where will the two subs be located? In my dual sub system, they are both on the front wall and symmetrical so they are equidistant from the MLP. If that's your scenario, there's no need to do MSO. If your subs are in differing locations then read this thread: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...eferences.html

It's an incredibly written "How to" guide for setting up subs
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post #304 of 716 Old 07-02-2019, 07:53 PM
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Anthem says to rerun the calibration

I've always wondered if we have to take new measurements when a version of Genesis is released or if we can just upload our previous files so I asked Anthem and their answer was we must rerun the calibration and take new measurements. It makes sense that we would have to re-measure to take advantage of the new features and fixes in a new release.
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Dedicated ARC Genesis Thread
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post #305 of 716 Old 07-02-2019, 09:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legairre View Post
I've always wondered if we have to take new measurements when a version of Genesis is released or if we can just upload our previous files so I asked Anthem and their answer was we must rerun the calibration and take new measurements. It makes sense that we would have to re-measure to take advantage of the new features and fixes in a new release.
Thanks for posting this! I recently re-used an old ARC3 file with an update of ARC and was not happy with the results. I am still not sure if it was the program or my ears having a bad night; at least now, I have confirmation from Anthem that compatibility is not a given.

Mike (Portland, Oregon -- no longer in North Carolina)

Main 2.2 system: Synology NAS, Auralic Aries G1 streamer, Anthem STR (DAC-)Preamp, Bryston 4B3 amp, Janszen Valentina mains, 2x JL Audio F112 subs. Desktop 2.1 system: JRiver Media Center, Classe CP-800 DAC-preamp, Marsh A400s power amp, Harbeth P3ESR, B&W ASW610.
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post #306 of 716 Old 07-03-2019, 04:46 AM
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Is there a reference music dvd I can use to set my house curve?
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post #307 of 716 Old 07-03-2019, 07:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike in NC View Post
Thanks for posting this! I recently re-used an old ARC3 file with an update of ARC and was not happy with the results. I am still not sure if it was the program or my ears having a bad night; at least now, I have confirmation from Anthem that compatibility is not a given.
I've had the same experience and I always just used my old ARC file when a new version was released. When uploading my old file with a new release sometimes it just didn't have the same wow like it did with the release the ARC file was made with. I guess for now on I'll be running a whole new calibration every time a new release comes out.

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Dedicated ARC Genesis Thread
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post #308 of 716 Old 07-03-2019, 12:45 PM
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I'm on version 1.0.1 (8867) of ARC Genesis. It looks like there have been quite a few changes related to simple bugs, crashes, support for various pieces of hardware, etc.

So, my question -- is there a reason to upgrade and rerun ARC Genesis at this point? Everything is working well in my system and sounds pretty good but if I'm leaving audio performance on the table, well, that would be undesirable.

Advice?

Just one more upgrade and things will be perfect.
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post #309 of 716 Old 07-03-2019, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchlampert View Post
Is there a reference music dvd I can use to set my house curve?
Mitch, IMO you have asked the million-dollar question! Recordings vary so much that a curve that's best for one, often is not so good for another. The better my system gets, and the wider variety of music I listen to, the more I notice that.

I usually experiment with ARC adjustments to find a curve family (in profiles 1-4) that work with a majority of what I listen to, with tilt increasing by profile; then I use the bass & treble controls on the fly for the rest.

Mike (Portland, Oregon -- no longer in North Carolina)

Main 2.2 system: Synology NAS, Auralic Aries G1 streamer, Anthem STR (DAC-)Preamp, Bryston 4B3 amp, Janszen Valentina mains, 2x JL Audio F112 subs. Desktop 2.1 system: JRiver Media Center, Classe CP-800 DAC-preamp, Marsh A400s power amp, Harbeth P3ESR, B&W ASW610.

Last edited by Mike in NC; 07-03-2019 at 03:32 PM. Reason: clarity
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post #310 of 716 Old 07-05-2019, 09:54 AM - Thread Starter
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best I can do with subwoofers

5,000 ^3 room open to side behind. 4 sealed subwoofers.
Phase matched using REW
Level matched using Quick Measure
Genesis calibration to 5k, 80 crossovers.
Adjusted sub distance using REW for flattest response. The average for the 4 sub is 12', the best distance is 23'.
I believe this is the best I'll be able to achieve in my room with these tools.
The graph shows over 10db of room gain below 20hz. Also use Deep Bass Boost of 6+ from 40hz, but don't show this on the graph.
Sounds terrific.

I have made significant progress since this post.
Reduced AVM sub calibration from +10 to -15. Increased sub volume from -30 to -15.
Then added 3db to subs. Ran REW for EQ. EQ'd subs.
Added Deep Bass Boost +6.
Re-adjusted sub distance to 24.

Added REW graph to show the improvement. Also, sounds even better
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post #311 of 716 Old 07-06-2019, 06:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Arc Genesis and multiple subwoofer impressions

Impressions using Genesis with multiple subs (Perhaps these observations are only applicable in my room with my 4 subs and my computer)

Mic positioning is crucial.
With my two theater seats, got much better result with position 1 being in front of the heads, in the middle of the two extended foot rests as close to center arms as possible. All 5 positions where in front. Including behind the seats, in my room, yielded inferior results.

Phase adjustments
Should be re-done whenever change Position 1

Level matching
Should be re-done whenever change Position 1
Should be re-done whenever Genesis tells you to lower sub volume. Have to re-do at the lower volume and then begin calibration again.

Cannot trust Genesis graphs
For the multiple calibrations I ran using different positions and level matching, these graphs always showed the corrected response as being perfect. REW and my ears showed this to be incorrect. REW is necessary to accurately assess calibration results for subs.
You cannot trust the graphs in Dirac or Audyssey any more than Genesis. They all are predictions of results. To measure actual results of calibration, need to use an independent system such as REW.

PEQ
After changing sub calibration as stated below and raising sub trim and raising sub volume an additional 3 db, found REW EQ to be very helpful.
Although this should be done before adding Deep Bass Boost.

If Speaker trim is greater than +12, must measure with a sound meter to assess correct speaker trim.
With positive sub calibration, need to lower calibration until it is negative and raise the sub trim by an equal amount.
Again, this is the same for Audyssey.

Must label each Arc file with the version number.

Before downloading new Genesis version should make present version ".old"

If use Quick Measure must re-start computer before running full calibration. Often must re-start computer several times just to get Quick Measure to work. This is with version 1.10.9006 on Windows 10.

With full calibration must re-start computer several times before getting rid of an error message concerning microphone.

I believe that most of these observations are also applicable to other calibration systems and are in no way meant to demean Genesis or suggest that other systems are superior. The results I have achieved following these procedures are excellent and I would certainly purchase another Anthem processor if the need arises to replace my AVM60.
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Last edited by WLC; 08-05-2019 at 05:18 AM. Reason: Clarification
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post #312 of 716 Old 07-06-2019, 01:36 PM
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I have a question out of left field.

Bought an MRX 520 last week, and when I ran the ARC Genesis, discovered that the amp in my powered sub is non-functional (OOPS!). Sub is a Revel B12, which apparently has known issue with the amps failing. In researching options to fix/replace the amp, I was curious if I could just run a basic, high power mono amp to the sub and use Genesis for any sonic anomalies with the driver that would ordinarily be dealt with by the dedicated, built in B12 amp. I really don't want to have to replace the sub because it has a good driver, and the cabinet matches my other Revel speakers (aesthetics is a thing in my living room).
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post #313 of 716 Old 07-06-2019, 03:58 PM
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Is this new Genesis file basically the beta that was available before?

Video: JVC RS620/X9500 projector, Stewart ST130 screen, Panasonic ub820 UHD player
Audio: Anthem AVM60 preamp, Anthem MCA525 amp, B&K Reference 125.7 amp
Subs: dual SVS PC-12 cylinders
Speakers: RBH SV-661R and SV-661CR fronts, Jamo 626k4 side/rear surrounds, DefTech DI6.5R heights
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post #314 of 716 Old 07-07-2019, 02:05 PM
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Question Mic Height / Blanket?

I have a leather couch. I've heard some people recommend that you temporarily put a thick blanket on the back of the couch to prevent unwanted reflections from entering the microphone and skewing the results. I was curious how this affected the results so I did a quick measure and in the high frequencies the blanket measurements will be roughly 1-5 db lower than not using the blanket. Put another way, the treble measurement is definitely "hotter" w/out the blanket. No shocker here.

My question do you guys recommend using a blanket for best results in my situation? Or would you recommend no blanket since that is the way I listen?

How close can you get to the seatback w/ the microphone? My ears are only 4-5 inches from the back of the couch. Can I measure that close if I have a high seat back?

My ears are 39.5 inches from the floor and my seatback is roughly 38 inches from the floor. Would you guys recommend a few measurements behind the seat or should I keep them all forward of the seat?

Also, I was wondering about mic height. Anthem recommends varying the height by 6-12 inches. My question is do you only take one measurement at the same height as your ears, which would be the first position? Or should you take several at ear height?

Thanks for any/all input and advice!

Brian R. Smith
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post #315 of 716 Old 07-07-2019, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WLC View Post
Impressions using Genesis with multiple subs...
As a current XT32 user with 2 subs looking to move to an ARC Genesis or Dirac, the issues you are having with not being able to trust ARC graphs and the extra work with phase matching and setting distances seems like a big deal (and lots of extra room for human error). From what I'm seeing, XT32 and Dirac both have SubEQ / individual base management and automatic distance. Does ARC Genesis still treat subs as 1 and require more pre-ARC setup to get good results?

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post #316 of 716 Old 07-07-2019, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bghead8che View Post
My question do you guys recommend using a blanket for best results in my situation? Or would you recommend no blanket since that is the way I listen?

Also, I was wondering about mic height. Anthem recommends varying the height by 6-12 inches. My question is do you only take one measurement at the same height as your ears, which would be the first position? Or should you take several at ear height?

Thanks for any/all input and advice!
The blanket issue has two sides. Your body will cover some of the leather when you're actually listening, but not while measuring. I suggest you do it both ways and see what produces the most pleasing sound to you, on the material you listen to. (I use a thin blanket over my leather chair, but I'm not convinced that's best for everyone -- or even for me. I do detect too much output around 2.5 kHz after running ARC.)

The same regarding mic height -- try both and see. If you have very directional speakers, as I do, I recommend a much narrower vertical window around ear height (which is what I use). With ordinary cone speakers, I'd expect that Anthem's recommendations would be a good starting point.

This whole business of optimal measurement is tricky. I find that every time I measure, I get a slightly different result. That aligns with my observation that every automatic RC system I've used needs touch-up by ear after it's done. ARC Genesis provides plenty of flexibility at the frequency extremes, but none at mid frequencies. I wish more users would ask ARC for some midrange adjustments or else a midrange control to be added to the bass and treble controls of the processor. I've already sent that request to Anthem Tech Support.
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Main 2.2 system: Synology NAS, Auralic Aries G1 streamer, Anthem STR (DAC-)Preamp, Bryston 4B3 amp, Janszen Valentina mains, 2x JL Audio F112 subs. Desktop 2.1 system: JRiver Media Center, Classe CP-800 DAC-preamp, Marsh A400s power amp, Harbeth P3ESR, B&W ASW610.
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post #317 of 716 Old 07-07-2019, 05:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wyld0 View Post
As a current XT32 user with 2 subs looking to move to an ARC Genesis or Dirac, the issues you are having with not being able to trust ARC graphs and the extra work with phase matching and setting distances seems like a big deal (and lots of extra room for human error). From what I'm seeing, XT32 and Dirac both have SubEQ / individual base management and automatic distance. Does ARC Genesis still treat subs as 1 and require more pre-ARC setup to get good results?
I have used both ARC and Dirac and think they are both good. (I've also used other automatic and manual systems of RC.) What ARC does depends on what processor you use.

I use an STR Preamp, which runs as a 2.2 system at most. The user must measure and input physical distances to all speakers. Then ARC will equalize the two subs as mono or stereo, your choice. After that is done, it will adjust phase for the smoothest response. I believe the phase adjustment is *only* available on the STR.

Where Dirac has it above ARC is the ability to modify the target curve more extensively. That will matter to some, not to others.

Mike (Portland, Oregon -- no longer in North Carolina)

Main 2.2 system: Synology NAS, Auralic Aries G1 streamer, Anthem STR (DAC-)Preamp, Bryston 4B3 amp, Janszen Valentina mains, 2x JL Audio F112 subs. Desktop 2.1 system: JRiver Media Center, Classe CP-800 DAC-preamp, Marsh A400s power amp, Harbeth P3ESR, B&W ASW610.
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post #318 of 716 Old 07-07-2019, 06:24 PM - Thread Starter
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ARC Genesis is great

[QUOTE=wyld0;58269218]As a current XT32 user with 2 subs looking to move to an ARC Genesis or Dirac, the issues you are having with not being able to trust ARC graphs and the extra work with phase matching and setting distances seems like a big deal (and lots of extra room for human error). From what I'm seeing, XT32 and Dirac both have SubEQ / individual base management and automatic distance. Does ARC Genesis still treat subs as 1 and require more pre-ARC setup to get good results?

I think I have given the wrong impression. I am positive that the remarks concerning the extra steps in setting up Genesis also applies to the other calibration systems. Dirac in my stereo doesn't deal with distances at all because it is not a digital system. ARC genesis treats subs as one. The sub distance adjustment post calibration will have to be done no matter what calibration system you use. I don't seem to know anyone sophisticated enough to explain the results about level matching at the sub volume you will calibrate at but I am sure this applies to all calibration systems with more than one sub.
Phase matching and level matching are simple using Quick Measure for level and REW for phase.

You cannot trust the graphs in ARC Genesis, Dirac or Audyssey. The reason is that they are all estimates of expected results. You can only validate the results with an independent system such as REW.
Hope I have answered your questions.

Last edited by WLC; 07-07-2019 at 06:48 PM. Reason: Extra information
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post #319 of 716 Old 07-07-2019, 06:54 PM - Thread Starter
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ARC Genesis, Dirac and Audyssey

I have edited my original post to clarify this point. The graphs in Genesis are just as reliable as those in Dirac or Audyssey. All are estimates of expected results. None measure the results post calibration. Some users have misinterpreted my remarks because I wasn't clearer to be a criticism of Genesis versus the other systems. That was not my intent nor is it accurate.
If you want a measure of the post calibration results for any of these systems, you must use an independent measuring system such as REW.

Sorry I wasn't clearer earlier.
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post #320 of 716 Old 07-08-2019, 09:25 AM
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Re-running calibration as Anthem recommended

I finally got around to doing as Anthem recommended and instead of using previous Genesis file with a new version of Genesis I installed the latest stable build of Genesis (1.1.0.9006) and reran Genesis. All my speakers levels were the same except the sub was 1 dB lower so I probably just had slight difference in my mic placement.

I'm happy to say re-running the calibration is a big difference is sound. It has that wow feeling again. Just for kicks and giggles I uploaded my previous Genesis file which was from the first stable release into the current Genesis 1.1.0.9006 and it sounds flat by comparison so re-running the calibration when a new release comes out versus uploading a previous Genesis file did make a difference for me.

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Dedicated ARC Genesis Thread

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post #321 of 716 Old 07-08-2019, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WLC View Post
I have edited my original post to clarify this point. The graphs in Genesis are just as reliable as those in Dirac or Audyssey. All are estimates of expected results. None measure the results post calibration. Some users have misinterpreted my remarks because I wasn't clearer to be a criticism of Genesis versus the other systems. That was not my intent nor is it accurate.
If you want a measure of the post calibration results for any of these systems, you must use an independent measuring system such as REW.

Sorry I wasn't clearer earlier.
Are you using a miniDSP to align subs before running ARC?

I actually have a miniDSP that I use in my 2.1 system connect to my PC for audio so I'm familiar with miniDSP, but it seems like folks might also use for multiple subs with surround room correction and it's another thing I want to compare versus other room correction systems (is it necessary/recommended for any multi-sub system regardless of ARC, Dirac, Audyssey).
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post #322 of 716 Old 07-08-2019, 07:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Minidsp

Quote:
Originally Posted by wyld0 View Post
Are you using a miniDSP to align subs before running ARC?

I actually have a miniDSP that I use in my 2.1 system connect to my PC for audio so I'm familiar with miniDSP, but it seems like folks might also use for multiple subs with surround room correction and it's another thing I want to compare versus other room correction systems (is it necessary/recommended for any multi-sub system regardless of ARC, Dirac, Audyssey).
I have a minidsp in my analogue stereo system between the sonos and Dac. The only thing it is used for in my 2.2 analogue system is Dirac. I wired my stereo so that each speaker is attached to the xlr out and each sub to an rca out. Then I used the sound meter in REW to level the subs, although since they are playing as two separate subs, this probably wasn't necessary. After running Dirac, I raised the sub levels to the best integration with the front speakers by ear. Hooking the subs up this way was suggested both by SVS and minidsp. Surprised me. Sounds great. For surround sound, don't use miniDSP. Use REW for gain adjustments. Anthem Quick Measure for Level matching. My bass is so good, I feel no need to include a miniDSP. Others may feel differently.
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post #323 of 716 Old 07-09-2019, 03:03 AM
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Hi,

I'd appreciate some help with Genesis on the AVM 60. I have a pair of Submersive F2i's (in a master and slave configuration) and can't get past the first step of measuring the speakers because Genesis reports my sub level is too high. I've reduced the sub levels as low as they get but ARC considers it too high. In the previous version you could choose to proceed regardless but that option isn't available here.

I've tried adding the sub later as part of an additional speaker as a work around but it means the sub and speaker measurement aren't from the exact same position and ARC keeps reporting my KEF R700's as full range (no crossover) which isn't quite right.

Any help appreciated.
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post #324 of 716 Old 07-09-2019, 04:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Input gain

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Originally Posted by xsnv View Post
Hi,

I'd appreciate some help with Genesis on the AVM 60. I have a pair of Submersive F2i's (in a master and slave configuration) and can't get past the first step of measuring the speakers because Genesis reports my sub level is too high. I've reduced the sub levels as low as they get but ARC considers it too high. In the previous version you could choose to proceed regardless but that option isn't available here.

I've tried adding the sub later as part of an additional speaker as a work around but it means the sub and speaker measurement aren't from the exact same position and ARC keeps reporting my KEF R700's as full range (no crossover) which isn't quite right.

Any help appreciated.
This probably won't help, but, is there an input gain on the amplifier that can be adjusted?
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post #325 of 716 Old 07-09-2019, 05:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Bghead8che View Post
I have a leather couch. I've heard some people recommend that you temporarily put a thick blanket on the back of the couch to prevent unwanted reflections from entering the microphone and skewing the results. I was curious how this affected the results so I did a quick measure and in the high frequencies the blanket measurements will be roughly 1-5 db lower than not using the blanket. Put another way, the treble measurement is definitely "hotter" w/out the blanket. No shocker here.

My question do you guys recommend using a blanket for best results in my situation? Or would you recommend no blanket since that is the way I listen?

How close can you get to the seatback w/ the microphone? My ears are only 4-5 inches from the back of the couch. Can I measure that close if I have a high seat back?

My ears are 39.5 inches from the floor and my seatback is roughly 38 inches from the floor. Would you guys recommend a few measurements behind the seat or should I keep them all forward of the seat?

Also, I was wondering about mic height. Anthem recommends varying the height by 6-12 inches. My question is do you only take one measurement at the same height as your ears, which would be the first position? Or should you take several at ear height?

Thanks for any/all input and advice!

Hi,

Although I don't have ARC, I believe that I can share some insight into a few of your questions. First, the reason that it can be helpful to cover your seatback with a thick towel or blanket is because the omnidirectional measurement microphone doesn't "hear" high-frequency sounds in the same way our ears do. If the mic gets too close to a hard surface, high-frequency sound waves bouncing from that surface into the microphone, at such close range, will cause a comb-filtering effect, and the EQ program may try to overcorrect those high-frequencies. That can result in a somewhat screechy sound at times. But, as noted by another Mike, it's a YMMV issue that you can test both ways.

If you do put something over the seatback, getting within 4 or 5" of the seatback should be no problem. As a general rule, it is better to measure close to where your ears are. But, if you don't cover the seatback with something, moving the mic further away from the seatback will probably help with higher frequencies.

I can't see any advantage to measuring behind your seat unless you are trying to EQ for a second row of seating. Even then, most people seem to get better results by limiting the measurement area. These different measurement systems all use their own systems of fuzzy logic weighting to average the measurements from the various mic positions. Anomalous results, such as those from behind your listening position where no one is actually sitting, can potentially skew the results in an unhelpful way. That is especially the case if there is a wall or other hard surface behind your listening position, for the reasons explained in the first paragraph.

Again, speaking generally, I would do most of my measurements close to ear height. We do move our heads around a bit during movie watching or music listening, so giving the EQ algorithm some information about the area slightly above ear height seems to work well. From long experience with Audyssey, measuring just a couple of positions a few inches higher than ear level works well for many people. But, this is another YMMV issue that you can test for yourself. Personally, I probably wouldn't measure more than a few inches (3-4") above ear height unless empirical experimentation in my room demonstrated the value of doing that.

I hope this helps!

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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post #326 of 716 Old 07-09-2019, 06:42 AM
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In Genesis what are you guys using as the maximum correction frequency for each set of front speakers (L, C, R)? Anyone going above 500Hz?

Thanks!

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Originally Posted by mbroadus View Post
In Genesis what are you guys using as the maximum correction frequency for each set of front speakers (L, C, R)? Anyone going above 500 Hz?

Thanks!
Do you mean 5000 Hz? This is how I think about maximum correction frequency. Genesis only has a finite number of filters it can use to "blend" your speakers. It tries to make each channel as flat as possible. If you increase the maximum frequency, you may not have enough available filters to properly "blend" your speakers. If you reduce the maximum frequency, you may not provide enough equalization to "blend".

The concept of blending is that if you can get every speaker in your system to sound identical, you will give the best chance of making your individual speakers disappear and allow your system to create a sound environment the way the engineer intended. If your speakers don't sound reasonably similar, then individual speakers will stand out and compromise the sound environment.

You could look at each speakers response curve and figure out where it needs correction, trying to reduce the maximum correction frequency and then listen to find out if there's any improvement.

I hope this makes sense!
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post #328 of 716 Old 07-09-2019, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by mitchlampert View Post
Do you mean 5000 Hz? This is how I think about maximum correction frequency. Genesis only has a finite number of filters it can use to "blend" your speakers. It tries to make each channel as flat as possible. If you increase the maximum frequency, you may not have enough available filters to properly "blend" your speakers. If you reduce the maximum frequency, you may not provide enough equalization to "blend".

The concept of blending is that if you can get every speaker in your system to sound identical, you will give the best chance of making your individual speakers disappear and allow your system to create a sound environment the way the engineer intended. If your speakers don't sound reasonably similar, then individual speakers will stand out and compromise the sound environment.

You could look at each speakers response curve and figure out where it needs correction, trying to reduce the maximum correction frequency and then listen to find out if there's any improvement.

I hope this makes sense!
No, 500Hz...I ask because I know with ARC-2, people were capping their maximum frequency around 500Hz. Some speaker manufacturers suggest that you not apply any correction above 300/400 (Martin Logan) or 500HZ.

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Originally Posted by mbroadus View Post
No, 500Hz...I ask because I know with ARC-2, people were capping their maximum frequency around 500Hz. Some speaker manufacturers suggest that you not apply any correction above 300/400 (Martin Logan) or 500HZ.
In that case, you could always just try it and see what happens. I frequently experiment with differing profiles. In the AVM 60 I can create 4 profiles from my measurement and try different manipulations.
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post #330 of 716 Old 07-09-2019, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Legairre View Post
Hey guys I've been trying to figure out why I love the house curve with my miniDSP 2x4 HD so much more than using a house curve with Genesis with the Deep Bass Boost combined with the Deep Bass Boost Frequency. I really want to get rid of the miniDSP 2x4 HD and just use Genesis for my house curve. The house curve through Genesis and the miniDSP 2x4 HD achieve the same seat of the pants feeling, but the sound is different. The house curve with the miniDSP sounds so much cleaner and the bass is clearer and uncluttered compared to using Genesis for a house curve. I’ve been trying to figure out why the Genesis house feels the same as the miniDSP house curve but just doesn’t sound nearly as good.

Well just by luck while I was typing up the steps on how to build a house curve in Genesis for a fellow AVS-er I noticed something while going through the steps in Genesis. I noticed in Genesis as I increased the Deep Bass Boost that it not only increases the bass for the sub it also increases the bass for EVERY single speaker in your system so you get a house curve built on every speaker in your system not just the sub. If you set the Deep Bass Boost Frequency to say 50Hz and the Deep Bass Boost to 6dB every speaker gets a house curve from 50Hz downward. Just try it and look at the low end of all your speakers get a house curve.

With the miniDSP house curve it’s only effecting the sub but in Genesis every speaker is getting a house curve so that’s why the Genesis house curve sounds different than the miniDSP house curve. To me the Genies house curve just sounds muddied compared to the the miniDSP house curve but at least now I know why I have to keep my miniDSP.. I want a house curve on my sub not all my speakers.


Also since the Deep Bass Boost and Deep Bass Boost Frequency are on the "System Wide Target" screen for each profile I should have known these settings would effect all speakers not just the sub.
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Originally Posted by WLC View Post
I know you are knowledgeable, so I don't really understand why you are having this effect with the Bass Boost in Genesis if you are using crossovers. My 7 speakers are all crossed at 80hz. Therefore, the entire Bass Boost, which for me starts at 40hz, can only be sent to the subs.

Is there something I'm not understanding?

The advantage of a house curve for my 2.2 stereo using a minidsp with dirac is that I can precisely pinpoint the curve. For example, I have 22 hz raised 6db, 200hz lowered to -4db and 16000hz lowered an additional -4. I can't be quite this precise with Genesis. However, with a Bass Boost of -6 starting at 40hz and a tilt of +8 starting at 500hz, it sounds very good.


Hi Guys,

This is an interesting thread, and I am enjoying learning more about ARC Genesis. It sounds very cool! I started by reading the most recent posts and have since been reading the thread from the beginning. I think I can explain why the bass might sound relatively more muddled (compared to boosting only the subwoofers, below a certain frequency) with the Deep Bass Boost affecting all of the speakers and not just the subs.

AVR crossovers use high-pass filters and low-pass filters to provide more gradual transitions from speakers to subwoofers. Those filters don't act as brick walls, abruptly cutting-off the sound. They just gradually attenuate the sound. That way, we aren't suddenly hearing the subwoofers cut-on, and the speakers cut-off. Typically, the high-pass filter for the speakers reduces the volume by 12db per octave. So, implementing an 80Hz crossover would gradually and symmetrically roll-off the volume of those speakers by 12db at 40Hz.

But, if you are boosting all of the channels by 6db at 40Hz, you are adding back 6db at that specific frequency. Now the speakers, which were getting softer from 80Hz down, are suddenly louder again, and a 6db increase in volume at 40Hz could make enough difference to be audible. That would especially be the case if you were able to compare that sound to a completely different approach, such as the application of a house curve added only to the subwoofers.

Frankly, I think that some speakers might distort a bit if they were playing 40Hz frequencies only 6db lower than they were having to play 80Hz frequencies, and the muddled sound could be that distortion. Of course, that would depend somewhat on the master volume level and the native content. The louder the volume level, the more potential distortion. (There can also be some potential phase issues involved when speakers and subs--particularly ported subs--play the same frequencies.)

Low-frequency distortion tends to sound somewhat boomy or unclear, unlike high-frequency distortion which sounds screechy or piercing. A somewhat unclear or cluttered bass sound could be a pretty good description of low-frequency distortion. Boosting channels by 6db at 40Hz could actually be considered somewhat counterproductive to setting 80Hz crossovers for those channels in the first place.

I don't want anyone who is currently enjoying that feature to suddenly become self-conscious about it because of my post. But, it occurs to me that since Anthem seems to be pretty cutting-edge with their updates, it might be worthwhile for some owners to contact them about allowing users to choose whether or not to apply the Deep Bass Boost to all of the channels, as opposed to applying it only to the subwoofers. Or, ARC could just let that feature affect only the subwoofers, by default. That would be an even better solution.

I hope that no one minds me commenting on this.

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
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