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post #541 of 586 Old 08-11-2019, 04:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Tilt

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Originally Posted by wyld0 View Post
Were you able to confirm the tilt actually applies beyond your correction frequency? In my testing it did not which made it quite useless for me.

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I think the tilt stops at the correction frequency, which for both of us is 5k. However, the opening credits of The Good Fight are very unpleasant for us without the tilt. That's an example of why I keep it. I don't go beyond 5k more because anthem says there are a limited number of filters that can be applied than because of the microphone limits. I just went back and realized that you are not the original poster that I was responding to. So, don't know whether you stop at 5k. Still, sort of assume you do.
Maybe in the future they'll become good to 20k, the same as Dirac.

Last edited by WLC; 08-11-2019 at 04:12 PM. Reason: Mistake
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post #542 of 586 Old 08-11-2019, 04:18 PM
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I think the tilt stops at the correction frequency, which for both of us is 5k. However, the opening credits of The Good Fight are very unpleasant for us without the tilt. That's an example of why I keep it. I don't go beyond 5k more because anthem says there are a limited number of filters that can be applied than because of the microphone limits.

Maybe in the future they'll become good to 20k, the same as Dirac.
When I use tilt, it seems to help with sharpness in dialog and most center channel effect sharpness, allowing me to turn up the master volume and get a more immersive surround experience. The huge downside is it increases the delta between the non-filtered peaks at 5k+ and really harshly and painfully exaggerates the high frequency effect components of things like glass breaking, wood busting, explosions. We watched the 2nd Harry Potter in 4k today with the DTS:X mix and adding the tilt made dialog and atmosphere of the school amazing, but the quidditch match was so sharp and harsh, I was dashing for the remote to bring the volume down. I really wish tilt would just apply all the way so there isn't such a giant leap from 5k and above (10dB without tilt and then maybe up to 18-20dB with).

Support also told me that 5k was the mic limit. If it's just a limitation of the bundled mic, seems like Anthem could just let us use our own mic like UMIK1?

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Last edited by wyld0; 08-11-2019 at 08:13 PM.
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post #543 of 586 Old 08-11-2019, 08:35 PM
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Tilt, max correction frequency, and microphones

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Originally Posted by wyld0 View Post
When I use tilt, it seems to help with sharpness in dialog and most center channel effect sharpness, allowing me to turn up the master volume and get a more immersive surround experience. The huge downside is it increases the delta between the non-filtered peaks at 5k+ and really harshly and painfully exaggerates the high frequency effect components of things like glass breaking, wood busting, explosions. We watched the 2nd Harry Potter in 4k today with the DTS:X mix and adding the tilt made dialog and atmosphere of the school amazing, but the quidditch match was so sharp and harsh, I was dashing for the remote to bring the volume down. I really wish tilt would just apply all the way so there isn't such a giant leap from 5k and above (10dB without tilt and then maybe up to 18-20dB with).

Support also told me that 5k was the mic limit. If it's just a limitation of the bundled mic, seems like Anthem could just let us use our own mic like UMIK1?
I don't know if this is applicable to your setup, but here's my experience. I have a 2.2 system using the STR Preamp. Of my four profiles, two have downwards tilt applied. In those, I increase the max correction frequency so the target intersects with the natural downward rolloff of the speakers. It may not be perfect (according to Anthem), but it is a hell of a lot smoother sounding than rolling down to 5 kHz and then having a sudden jump in response!

My impression is, what tech support tells us is not always 100% on point. Though the mic may not be as accurate above 5 kHz, its readings generally match those made with my Dayton Omnimic system, and the Anthem mic's measurements are more useful than assuming the speaker is perfect above 5 kHz -- which is the alternative.

About the mics, this is an annoying feature of the Anthem world. The mic is proprietary, and tech support told me they have no way of checking its calibration, even if I wanted to pay for it. Other mics do not work with Anthem products, and because the calibration file is encoded (not clear text as with other mics), it's impossible to have it recalibrated by a third party. Don't get me wrong -- I really enjoy the STR preamp and its great sound -- but why does Anthem find it necessary to make even the microphone closed and proprietary? I, too, also have a UMIK-1 that I'd like to use, if only for comparison.

Mike (Portland, Oregon -- no longer in North Carolina)

Main 2.2 system: Synology NAS, Auralic Aries G1 streamer, Anthem STR (DAC-)Preamp, Bryston 4B3 amp, Janszen Valentina mains, 2x JL Audio F112 subs. Desktop 2.1 system: JRiver Media Center, Classe CP-800 DAC-preamp, Marsh A400s power amp, Harbeth P3ESR, B&W ASW610.

Last edited by Mike in NC; 08-11-2019 at 09:23 PM. Reason: clarity
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post #544 of 586 Old 08-11-2019, 09:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike in NC View Post
I don't know if this is applicable to your setup, but here's my experience. I have a 2.2 system using the STR Preamp. Of my four profiles, two have downwards tilt applied. In those, I increase the max correction frequency so the target intersects with the natural downward rolloff of the speakers. It may not be perfect (according to Anthem), but it is a hell of a lot smoother sounding than rolling down to 5 kHz or 10 kHz and then having a sudden jump in response!

My impression is, what tech support tells us is not always 100% on point. Though the mic may not be as accurate above 5 kHz, its readings generally match those made with my Dayton Omnimic system, and the Anthem mic's measurements are more useful than assuming the speaker is perfect above 5 kHz -- which is the alternative.

About the mics, this is an annoying feature of the Anthem world. The mic is proprietary, and tech support told me they have no way of checking its calibration, even if I wanted to pay for it. Other mics do not work with Anthem products, and because the calibration file is encoded (not clear text as with other mics), it's impossible to have it recalibrated by a third party. Don't get me wrong -- I really enjoy the STR preamp and its great sound -- but why does Anthem find it necessary to make even the microphone closed and proprietary? I, too, also have a UMIK-1 that I'd like to use, if only for comparison.
Good point - I haven't leveraged more than one speaker profile yet. I've tried extending the correction frequency beyond 5k previously but ended up with some odd artifacts - pops / crackling / robotic buzz. I don't know if it is a combination of the correction frequency and the DSP clipping from having all the channels near max trim. Support actually ended up telling me I had a bad DSP and I swapped out the MRX. Worth giving it a shot on the new set and see if it's better than the harsh high frequencies.

I'm really hoping the new PSA LCR set arrives later this week and helps smooth things out since the sensitivity will be higher and the response more natural than the already bright Polks.

Edit: Also, I didn't know the calibration files were encrypted. How odd is that? I can't think of a good reason for Anthem to even go through all that trouble. Why would they care if 3rd party mics were used anyway? I would assume all of the IP is in ARC itself and has nothing to do with the mic or calibration files. So weird.
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post #545 of 586 Old 08-12-2019, 05:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Tilt and surround

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Originally Posted by wyld0 View Post
When I use tilt, it seems to help with sharpness in dialog and most center channel effect sharpness, allowing me to turn up the master volume and get a more immersive surround experience. The huge downside is it increases the delta between the non-filtered peaks at 5k+ and really harshly and painfully exaggerates the high frequency effect components of things like glass breaking, wood busting, explosions. We watched the 2nd Harry Potter in 4k today with the DTS:X mix and adding the tilt made dialog and atmosphere of the school amazing, but the quidditch match was so sharp and harsh, I was dashing for the remote to bring the volume down. I really wish tilt would just apply all the way so there isn't such a giant leap from 5k and above (10dB without tilt and then maybe up to 18-20dB with).

Support also told me that 5k was the mic limit. If it's just a limitation of the bundled mic, seems like Anthem could just let us use our own mic like UMIK1?

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
Your explanation is very interesting. For many years, I have added 4 dbs to my backs and surrounds. My wife and I have enjoyed the immersive experience in our large room. I was able to continue that practice with ARC2. However, it became untenable with Genesis for exactly the sounds you list. When I just leave the back and surrounds at their calibrated levels, there is no problem. It had not occurred to me that the tilt could be the problem. Although I have all Aerial Acoustic speakers, they are not all the same model. I had thought about correcting the back and surrounds to 20k more for the high frequency roll off that would allow above 10k. Genesis reports that my speakers should all roll off about .88 but since I only correct to 5k, this adjustment is not applied. If one corrects to 20k with the same tilt, does that mean that the tilt would be more gradual since it would encompass an additional 15k?
This forum continues to increase my knowledge, although not necessarily my wisdom. I have been so happy after months of tinkering that I may just leave my system as it is rather than continue to pursue perfection. The main reason for my satisfaction is the bass. I've had good bass for many years, but nothing approaching what Genesis has offered.
But...but… now you've got me thinking.
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post #546 of 586 Old 08-12-2019, 05:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Limited filters

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Originally Posted by Mike in NC View Post
I don't know if this is applicable to your setup, but here's my experience. I have a 2.2 system using the STR Preamp. Of my four profiles, two have downwards tilt applied. In those, I increase the max correction frequency so the target intersects with the natural downward rolloff of the speakers. It may not be perfect (according to Anthem), but it is a hell of a lot smoother sounding than rolling down to 5 kHz and then having a sudden jump in response!

My impression is, what tech support tells us is not always 100% on point. Though the mic may not be as accurate above 5 kHz, its readings generally match those made with my Dayton Omnimic system, and the Anthem mic's measurements are more useful than assuming the speaker is perfect above 5 kHz -- which is the alternative.

About the mics, this is an annoying feature of the Anthem world. The mic is proprietary, and tech support told me they have no way of checking its calibration, even if I wanted to pay for it. Other mics do not work with Anthem products, and because the calibration file is encoded (not clear text as with other mics), it's impossible to have it recalibrated by a third party. Don't get me wrong -- I really enjoy the STR preamp and its great sound -- but why does Anthem find it necessary to make even the microphone closed and proprietary? I, too, also have a UMIK-1 that I'd like to use, if only for comparison.
As I've stated, my concern is more with the limited filters. I wonder if the STR preamp's specifications are different than the AVM60 in regard to the number of filters. My minidsp Dirac allows me to correct to 20k in my 2.2 system. I assumed that is a characteristic of Dirac rather than the number of channels to be corrected. It probably is just Dirac versus Genesis. Although, maybe the filters are in the hardware and the AVM60 will require an upgrade to allow correction to 20k.
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post #547 of 586 Old 08-12-2019, 07:08 AM
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I have been using a more modest combination of bass boost, 3.5 dB, 40 Hz and a tilt of -3 dB starting at 800 Hz. I also correct all 11 speakers to 14 kHz and have been very pleased with the results. (Because of age, I can't hear anything above 14 kHz, or anything close to it!)

I do my best to correct my 2 subwoofers using their internal PEQ before running ARC Genesis. Does that save more ARC filters/processing power for the other channels?

As to correcting about 5 kHz, for the reasons stated above, if you are going to use tilt, it seem wrong not to.

Although the ARC mic may not be calibrated above 5 kHz, it does measure that region of the frequency spectrum, and I am pleased that the measurements using the ARC mic agree quite well with what I see using REW and the calibrated UMIK-1 mic – a nice smooth house curve.
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post #548 of 586 Old 08-12-2019, 07:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WLC View Post
This forum continues to increase my knowledge, although not necessarily my wisdom. I have been so happy after months of tinkering that I may just leave my system as it is rather than continue to pursue perfection. The main reason for my satisfaction is the bass. I've had good bass for many years, but nothing approaching what Genesis has offered.
But...but… now you've got me thinking.
I would be very careful to consider the fact that the speakers between the two of you are VERY different designs, and ARC will do very different things as a result. I don't think your experiences will translate.

Amongst other things, even with speakers of the same general design principles, the room and speaker power handling capabilities can cause a significant difference in SQ after calibration in the areas you're discussing.
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post #549 of 586 Old 08-12-2019, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by shs1234 View Post
I have been using a more modest combination of bass boost, 3.5 dB, 40 Hz and a tilt of -3 dB starting at 800 Hz. I also correct all 11 speakers to 14 kHz and have been very pleased with the results. (Because of age, I can't hear anything above 14 kHz, or anything close to it!)



I do my best to correct my 2 subwoofers using their internal PEQ before running ARC Genesis. Does that save more ARC filters/processing power for the other channels?



As to correcting about 5 kHz, for the reasons stated above, if you are going to use tilt, it seem wrong not to.



Although the ARC mic may not be calibrated above 5 kHz, it does measure that region of the frequency spectrum, and I am pleased that the measurements using the ARC mic agree quite well with what I see using REW and the calibrated UMIK-1 mic – a nice smooth house curve.
Thanks for the reinforcement. I'm going to try increasing the correction frequency and see how that goes with tilt.

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post #550 of 586 Old 08-12-2019, 08:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks

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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
I would be very careful to consider the fact that the speakers between the two of you are VERY different designs, and ARC will do very different things as a result. I don't think your experiences will translate.

Amongst other things, even with speakers of the same general design principles, the room and speaker power handling capabilities can cause a significant difference in SQ after calibration in the areas you're discussing.
Thanks for the warning/reminder. I'm going to leave my system as it is.
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post #551 of 586 Old 08-12-2019, 10:07 AM
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I would be very careful to consider the fact that the speakers between the two of you are VERY different designs, and ARC will do very different things as a result. I don't think your experiences will translate.

Amongst other things, even with speakers of the same general design principles, the room and speaker power handling capabilities can cause a significant difference in SQ after calibration in the areas you're discussing.
Undoubtedly true. Still, I would not hesitate to try new ARC settings that cut the highest frequencies to smooth response, whether made necessary by the speakers themselves or the quirks of ARC when used with tilt. Just save the old ARC file, so you can revert easily if necessary.

I would avoid anything that would boost HF response beyond a few dB, as it could lead to tweeter damage. Probably wouldn't sound good, either.

My experience has been that without thoughtful experimentation, one never gets the best sound from any DSP system.
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post #552 of 586 Old 08-12-2019, 10:23 AM
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My experience has been that without thoughtful experimentation, one never gets the best sound from any DSP system.
I agree 100%. The Anthem profile GUI is the best I have played with for experimentation.

My point was only that the cause of harshness may be different for different speakers in different rooms for reasons depending on multiple factors such as the room, speaker directivity, etc.
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post #553 of 586 Old 08-12-2019, 10:46 AM - Thread Starter
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STR compared to AVM60

Anthem support just told me that the STR products have "more correction points available" than the AVM 60.
In case this detail figures into anyone's calculations.
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post #554 of 586 Old 08-12-2019, 10:48 AM
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Anthem support just told me that the STR products have "more correction points available" than the AVM 60.
In case this detail figures into anyone's calculations.
Multi channel STR amp anyone?
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post #555 of 586 Old 08-12-2019, 11:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Aren't I embarrassed

Ok Said I wasn't going to experiment. But, I just can't trust myself. So, I changed 2 profiles. Each was exactly same as other two except corrected to 20k. Testing it on irritating sounds, I couldn't hear a difference. However, probably my imagination, the profiles weren't as pleasing as what I had. So, have scurried back to my original upload.
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post #556 of 586 Old 08-12-2019, 02:31 PM
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Undoubtedly true. Still, I would not hesitate to try new ARC settings that cut the highest frequencies to smooth response, whether made necessary by the speakers themselves or the quirks of ARC when used with tilt. Just save the old ARC file, so you can revert easily if necessary.

I would avoid anything that would boost HF response beyond a few dB, as it could lead to tweeter damage. Probably wouldn't sound good, either.

My experience has been that without thoughtful experimentation, one never gets the best sound from any DSP system.
This is definitely where I am. I've previously enjoyed the "bright" response of my Polk system but the way ARC works is exaggerating the delta beyond the max correction freq causing me to really hate the harshness of the sound. This is because the channel trim is maxed out and everything up to the correction freq is flattened back down. If there was an option to NOT apply +12dB trim beyond the max correction frequency, that would help solve the issue. If trim applied beyond the max correction frequency, that would help solve the issue. If I could go up to 20kHz, that would help solve the issue.

So I've ordered some new PSA LCR speakers and will start over with fresh calibrations and see where I'm at.

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post #557 of 586 Old 08-13-2019, 04:49 PM
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Latest Beta is broken...

The latest ARC Genesis beta has a major bug. Try to apply a high frequency tilt and it actually applies a low frequency tilt! As an example, try apply a -12db tilt at say 5000hz and then change it up and down. You will notice the graph is not responding correctly. There should be a strong downward tilt at 5000hz but it changes the entire frequency instead.

The latest beta is all but broken.

Try it and you will see what I mean.

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post #558 of 586 Old 08-13-2019, 07:11 PM
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The latest ARC Genesis beta has a major bug. Try to apply a high frequency tilt and it actually applies a low frequency tilt! As an example, try apply a -12db tilt at say 5000hz and then change it up and down. You will notice the graph is not responding correctly. There should be a strong downward tilt at 5000hz but it changes the entire frequency instead.



The latest beta is all but broken.



Try it and you will see what I mean.
Confirmed. Totally messed up. Seems like this was working when I first took the measurements but now loading the measurements and changing the tilt moves the entire graph up and down. Definitely was working properly before. Super weird.

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post #559 of 586 Old 08-14-2019, 07:05 AM
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The other day, I went into the AVM60's on screen menu and checked my settings and saw that none of my speakers (excluding subs) were crossed over even though my Genesis profile has crossover information. Has anyone else noticed this?
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post #560 of 586 Old 08-14-2019, 07:15 AM
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The other day, I went into the AVM60's on screen menu and checked my settings and saw that none of my speakers (excluding subs) were crossed over even though my Genesis profile has crossover information. Has anyone else noticed this?
I've noticed in the new beta that occasionally the crossover points and trims don't exactly match what's in the ARC profile - they will be off by one or two clicks here and there. I may revert back as I didn't see any different in measurements despite the change log.

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Originally Posted by wyld0 View Post
I've noticed in the new beta that occasionally the crossover points and trims don't exactly match what's in the ARC profile - they will be off by one or two clicks here and there. I may revert back as I didn't see any different in measurements despite the change log.

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So when you checked, the crossover points were in the AVM's menu? Mine were completely missing! Every channel's crossover except the sub was Off.
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post #562 of 586 Old 08-14-2019, 07:35 AM
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So when you checked, the crossover points were in the AVM's menu? Mine were completely missing! Every channel's crossover except the sub was Off.
I haven't seen that but it could be because I previously pushed a profile from the non beta arc. That might actually explain why they were off - maybe they were not updated at all with the new push and kept the old ones.

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post #563 of 586 Old 08-14-2019, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by wyld0 View Post
I've previously enjoyed the "bright" response of my Polk system but the way ARC works is exaggerating the delta beyond the max correction freq causing me to really hate the harshness of the sound. This is because the channel trim is maxed out and everything up to the correction freq is flattened back down. If there was an option to NOT apply +12dB trim beyond the max correction frequency, that would help solve the issue. If trim applied beyond the max correction frequency, that would help solve the issue. If I could go up to 20kHz, that would help solve the issue.
It's not practical to reduce channel trim so that response above and below the max correction frequency match better? Buying new speakers to address this seems a pretty extreme solution -- unless you wanted them anyway, in which case it's the best solution.

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Last edited by Mike in NC; 08-14-2019 at 12:32 PM. Reason: Afterthoughts
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post #564 of 586 Old 08-14-2019, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike in NC View Post
It's not practical to reduce channel trim so that response above and below the max correction frequency match better? Buying new speakers to address this seems a pretty extreme solution -- unless you wanted them anyway, in which case it's the best solution.
Oddly, reducing the trim in ARC also reduces all of the correction filters. So instead of only lowering the volume, it just stops applying correction. Strange.

Whether or not buying new speakers to try to solve this isn't really worth discussing AFTER I've already pulled the trigger

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post #565 of 586 Old 08-14-2019, 07:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wyld0 View Post
Confirmed. Totally messed up. Seems like this was working when I first took the measurements but now loading the measurements and changing the tilt moves the entire graph up and down. Definitely was working properly before. Super weird.

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Please email or call Anthem to report this bug ASAP. I already called them, however, I am sure others are needed.

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post #566 of 586 Old 08-15-2019, 04:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Please Explain

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike in NC View Post
It's not practical to reduce channel trim so that response above and below the max correction frequency match better? Buying new speakers to address this seems a pretty extreme solution -- unless you wanted them anyway, in which case it's the best solution.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wyld0 View Post
Oddly, reducing the trim in ARC also reduces all of the correction filters. So instead of only lowering the volume, it just stops applying correction. Strange.

Whether or not buying new speakers to try to solve this isn't really worth discussing AFTER I've already pulled the trigger

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Tapatalk
I don't understand either of these statements. What does it mean to reduce channel trim so that response above and below max correction match better?
What does it mean that reducing trim in ARC also reduces all of the correction filters?
Sorry for my ignorance. Thanks in advance for your explanations.
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post #567 of 586 Old 08-15-2019, 04:51 AM - Thread Starter
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20k

So I uploaded the profiles again that include 20k and compared them to 5k profiles.

One profile has No Deep Bass added and -12 tilt starting at 500. One profile has 6+Deep Bass Boost and -12 tilt starting at 500. Each profile was replicated with only difference being max correction frequency.

Although the graphs looked entirely different past 5k, we could not hear any significant benefit and thought we heard somewhat less satisfying surround sound.
On screechy, annoying sounds, my wife and I could not hear any improvement or difference with the 20k. In addition, the 20k profiles do not sound as tight and cohesive to us as the 5k.

Are other people having a different experience?
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post #568 of 586 Old 08-15-2019, 05:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WLC View Post
So I uploaded the profiles again that include 20k and compared them to 5k profiles.



One profile has No Deep Bass added and -12 tilt starting at 500. One profile has 6+Deep Bass Boost and -12 tilt starting at 500. Each profile was replicated with only difference being max correction frequency.



Although the graphs looked entirely different past 5k, we could not hear any significant benefit and thought we heard somewhat less satisfying surround sound.

On screechy, annoying sounds, my wife and I could not hear any improvement or difference with the 20k. In addition, the 20k profiles do not sound as tight and cohesive to us as the 5k.



Are other people having a different experience?
If you are using the latest beta, tilt seems to be broken completely and you'll see no difference at any frequency. (until you get down to the sub crossover point).

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post #569 of 586 Old 08-15-2019, 06:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Beta 1.1.0.9006

Quote:
Originally Posted by wyld0 View Post
If you are using the latest beta, tilt seems to be broken completely and you'll see no difference at any frequency. (until you get down to the sub crossover point).

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I'm still using Beta 1.1.0.9006. Anthem said there was no difference in the algorithms and since you have to do a new calibration with each new beta and I am so happy with my system, I did not download the newest beta.

I also didn't mention in my post that the tilt did make a big difference in the 5k correction compared to no tilt. It's just that I didn't hear any additional advantage going to 20k.

Just a reminder, which all of the users already know. Before downloading a new beta, I would change the existing one to .old. Otherwise, I think you are stuck with the new and my understanding is that old calibrations don't work well with new betas.
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post #570 of 586 Old 08-15-2019, 06:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WLC View Post
I don't understand either of these statements. What does it mean to reduce channel trim so that response above and below max correction match better?

What does it mean that reducing trim in ARC also reduces all of the correction filters?

Sorry for my ignorance. Thanks in advance for your explanations.
ARC wants to set my trim on each channel at max or higher. If I run the filter calculations with the trim at max, the results are these really nice flat straight lines that very closely resemble the target curve right up to the max correction frequency where they jump up 10dB.

If I lower the trim down by 10dB and run the filter calculations again, ARC just applies less filters so the mids fall out and I end up with more of a reverse bell curve that more or less follows ARC off response with some minor improvements. I will attach some photos, but overall ARC seems to only apply filters effectively when the trim is maxed out. Very frustrating.

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