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post #721 of 2061 Old 10-24-2019, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by ece2k2 View Post
Much appreciated.

I have a quick question about ARC Genesis: After running ARC, I am seeing Subwoofer level of 6 dB under ARC level settings. But when I go into the Anthem receiver, the Subwoofer level is set to 11. Please let me know if this is normal. All other speakers have identical level in both places.
The Subwoofer level is at 11 because it's a combination of the Sub level you see in ARC(6dB) + the Room Gain in ARC. ARC must have set your room gain to 5 so your combined Subwoofer Level is 11.

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post #722 of 2061 Old 10-24-2019, 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill-99 View Post
Hoping people on this thread can spare a bit of brain power. My brain is tapped out at the moment.

A piece of an ARC Genesis report is attached showing the sag mentioned in the title of this post. Not sure what's going on there. I went back to my ARC-2 reports and it's there as well. That seems to imply that there's something going on in the room that I don't understand.

This 5.1.0 home theater is in a carpeted family room that's 23' x 14.5' x 9'. It uses acoustic treatment from GIK: 4 x Tri-Traps and 2 x 244 Bass Traps. The family room flows into a kitchen in a big "L" shape with no wall or ceiling divider between the rooms. The kitchen has tile floors and quartz countertops.

MaxEQ is 5K. Mic positions form a 2' circle around the MLP in a big "X" with the center at ear level, the two in front 6" lower and the two in back 6" higher. Crossover is 80 Hz and the graphs for the L/C/R/SL/SR look very similar.

From a practical view, the system sounds very good but after seeing this in the report it made me wonder if I'm leaving performance on the table.

Thoughts? Advice?
Thats not a big sag, though I would guess its a combination of your room acoustic. If you want to adress this let Genesis EQ up to 20khz and play with the settings and tilt. You even have a setting where you can play with the roll off in the top-end.





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post #723 of 2061 Old 10-25-2019, 12:16 AM
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Unhappy Bugs in ARC Genesis 1.1.1.9105

I keep running into bugs in this (Windows) version when used with the STR Preamp. Just in the last few days:

(1) ‘Auto Detect (System-Wide Target and All Channels)’ does not reset room gain to the default value.

(2) Changing 'Tilt Start Frequency' does not change the target curve.

(3) A profile with room gain = 1.5 dB plays music with stronger/heavier bass than an otherwise identical profile with room gain = 3.0 dB.

The last one makes me wonder how many other errors are under the hood in this version of ARC Genesis, and if any of it is right.

Very disappointing quality control. Does anyone have insight on whether a new version is coming soon?
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post #724 of 2061 Old 10-25-2019, 05:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike in NC View Post
I keep running into bugs in this (Windows) version when used with the STR Preamp. Just in the last few days:

(1) ‘Auto Detect (System-Wide Target and All Channels)’ does not reset room gain to the default value.

(2) Changing 'Tilt Start Frequency' does not change the target curve.

(3) A profile with room gain = 1.5 dB plays music with stronger/heavier bass than an otherwise identical profile with room gain = 3.0 dB.

The last one makes me wonder how many other errors are under the hood in this version of ARC Genesis, and if any of it is right.

Very disappointing quality control. Does anyone have insight on whether a new version is coming soon?
I completely agree with your closing statements. We are approximately 6 months past the initial Genesis release and each new revision seems to take a stab at correcting anomalies while sometimes bricking functions that appeared to work in earlier versions. A lot of Anthem owners have put a considerable amount of time into downloading, measuring, and tweaking their ARC Genesis solutions each time a revision is released. This becomes tiresome unless you just enjoy the beta tester experience and re-running up to 50 test sweeps per new release.

A number of years ago, Anthem had a presence on these forums ([email protected]) and he took the time to explain what was actually going on in the background, why certain functions acted the way they did, and provided some practical feedback when users posted curves or had questions. This is not the case anymore and it leaves Genesis users on their own to fish through functionality, find what is broken, and post their results hoping others on this forum can shed some light.

I don't want to sound too bitter because I think Anthem makes great products, has decent support, and I have owned many of their products that sound great. I just continue to observe that Genesis was rolled out prematurely and we are expending effort as beta testers. It's fortunate that power users can interpret many of these glitches based on measurements, but less experienced customers running Genesis in Auto mode are just "getting what they get" and it may not be an optimal correction.

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post #725 of 2061 Old 10-25-2019, 08:45 AM
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Hi.
i am new to this forum i have been staying with ARC for a few weeks now without getting into it in any way with the settings.
I ask how many have a bass that is in fact dead mine is it and it seems that ARC is killing it.
but it sounds better without the ARC connected as it seems to kill the room resonances for not getting any support in from the back wall so you get more roomgain.
Regards
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post #726 of 2061 Old 10-25-2019, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Lars Bergvall View Post
Hi.
i am new to this forum i have been staying with ARC for a few weeks now without getting into it in any way with the settings.
I ask how many have a bass that is in fact dead mine is it and it seems that ARC is killing it.
but it sounds better without the ARC connected as it seems to kill the room resonances for not getting any support in from the back wall so you get more roomgain.
Regards
Lars, I use ARC and I do not find that it kills the bass. Some adjustment of the "room gain" parameter can be helpful if you want sound closer to what you got without using ARC.

It is not unusual for a new user of DSP (whether ARC or some other kind) to feel the sound is short of bass, because one gets accustomed to the old way, and it takes some time to adapt to a truer sound. Maybe that is the case for you . . . I can't say.

And not everyone likes the result of DSP on audio. But I would advise you to try a few more weeks and see what you think. Experiment with "room gain" in ARC and see if you can get sound that you like. When I compare the results with ARC to without, the bass is less but more even and far clearer, a bit like the good aspects of listening through headphones.

Good luck!

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post #727 of 2061 Old 10-25-2019, 11:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Bittermidget View Post
We are approximately 6 months past the initial Genesis release and each new revision seems to take a stab at correcting anomalies while sometimes bricking functions that appeared to work in earlier versions. A lot of Anthem owners have put a considerable amount of time into downloading, measuring, and tweaking their ARC Genesis solutions each time a revision is released. This becomes tiresome unless you just enjoy the beta tester experience and re-running up to 50 test sweeps per new release.
Yes, and I agree with the other part of your post (not quoted above): that it would be helpful to have an Anthem engineer participating in a forum somewhere so that there could be two-way communication about features and bugs.

Some manufacturers (e.g., PS Audio) run their own user communities, and others (e.g., Bryston) have a strong presence on audio fora. I can't imagine telling Bryston about a bug and not getting an answer almost immediately. I had hoped Anthem would be the same, but sadly they are not.

Even the bug-reporting form in ARC doesn't ask for your full name, phone number, or email address, so there is no way you'll ever hear back from Anthem about what you have sent in. It's rather frustrating, sending information into a one-way tunnel.

I am going to look for a way to communicate this to someone at Anthem who will listen and who can make a difference. Maybe it's a fool's errand, but I'll feel better for trying.

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post #728 of 2061 Old 10-26-2019, 07:30 AM
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839/5000

There are a few minor things I bother with when it comes to ARC.
1. It is not possible to affect the built-in EQ which is bad.
Drops about 10dB from 50Hz down to 20Hz to then rise to the same level it had at 50Hz Anthem hate bass I think.
2. Room gain a clean joke I think I have a room gain of 8.3dB without any effect of EQ clean sound.
3. The time correction which speakers it is based on small, medium, large it also applies to the basses which sizes are the ones where small, medium, large.Hear no major movements of the speakers' sound.
4.The software is public beta why should customer have to test their software if you buy a product then it should not be beta software it is bad Anthem.
5. Play-fi software must be a pure joke works or does not work.
Nobody responds to Mail neither at ply-fi or Anthem
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post #729 of 2061 Old 11-02-2019, 03:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike in NC View Post
...
Even the bug-reporting form in ARC doesn't ask for your full name, phone number, or email address, so there is no way you'll ever hear back from Anthem about what you have sent in. It's rather frustrating, sending information into a one-way tunnel.

I am going to look for a way to communicate this to someone at Anthem who will listen and who can make a difference. Maybe it's a fool's errand, but I'll feel better for trying.
[email protected]
I’ve sent emails on numerous topics incl ARC/GENESIS and gotten quick replies but with varying degrees of « competency ». Some times I gave up as the replies were not following the conversation, signs that they are overworked and under staffed.

And yeah after I have sent a fully detailed email w logs, graphs, crash dump info,... they still asked me to fill in that useless bug report form. It baffles me how some tech companies deal with support and customer feedback. You hand them valuable info on a silver plate and it goes to /dev/null.
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post #730 of 2061 Old 11-02-2019, 03:14 PM
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Last time I sent them a bug, they asked me to use the bug-reporting form instead, so the information would go right to the development team.

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post #731 of 2061 Old 11-04-2019, 03:59 AM
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Do Anthem ARC genesis correct speakers Distances and channels level? or is it has to be set manaully in the AVR. by the user prior to running the calibration?
curious about how ARC stack up against Dirac live if someone had experience with both and would like to give an input?
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post #732 of 2061 Old 11-04-2019, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by marco1975 View Post
Do Anthem ARC genesis correct speakers Distances and channels level? or is it has to be set manaully in the AVR. by the user prior to running the calibration?
curious about how ARC stack up against Dirac live if someone had experience with both and would like to give an input?
Hi
Dirac I think is a bit better when it takes into account the distance, level of the speakers. It has the better bass management.
ARC only sets the level on the speakers. Distance can be measured by yourself.
If you need to buy a reciver, buy one with Dirac
I personally think that ARC is bad and that does not take into account the good reflections in a room ARC kills them effectively so everything sounds flat lifeless boring
With Dirac you can use Umik which is better than the one with the sent mic which is not good.
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post #733 of 2061 Old 11-04-2019, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Lars Bergvall View Post
Hi
Dirac I think is a bit better when it takes into account the distance, level of the speakers. It has the better bass management.
ARC only sets the level on the speakers. Distance can be measured by yourself.
If you need to buy a reciver, buy one with Dirac
I personally think that ARC is bad and that does not take into account the good reflections in a room ARC kills them effectively so everything sounds flat lifeless boring
With Dirac you can use Umik which is better than the one with the sent mic which is not good.
While I respect your opinion, Lars, I think you're making some black and white statements about Dirac and ARC that are really not so easy to determine.

Of course ARC does not automatically set speaker distances while Dirac does. I'm not sure that functionality is a real deal breaker and I think most would still measure distances manually to verify the distances Dirac has chosen.

Better bass management is another statement that is a bit all-encompassing. Bass management can be as simple as selecting crossover frequencies between one or more channels and subwoofers, the crossover slopes, and properly steering a signal throughout the speaker set. In this case, I don't think ARC is inferior to Dirac at all.

The statement about ARC killing all reflections...well this is very dependent upon the maximum correction values you are asking the room correction software to intervene. If you want higher frequency correction, you can choose that. If you want to only correct into the bass/upper bass frequencies, then you can avoid messing with the "good reflections" if that is what you really want to keep.

And you cannot just call the ARC mic "not good". Have you tested the frequency response with the ARC mic and the UMIK mic to compare? I have, and for the frequencies where the mic is being used for textbook correction, they are both very accurate. Now if you're talking about mic accuracy at frequencies approaching 20K, then I'm not sure either mic is the best suited for this.

In the end, I don't think you can just discount ARC based on the criteria you listed. Dirac is a great room correction solution and so is ARC. It depends what you are looking to do with it.

Cheers!
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post #734 of 2061 Old 11-04-2019, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Bittermidget View Post
While I respect your opinion, Lars, I think you're making some black and white statements about Dirac and ARC that are really not so easy to determine.

Of course ARC does not automatically set speaker distances while Dirac does. I'm not sure that functionality is a real deal breaker and I think most would still measure distances manually to verify the distances Dirac has chosen.

Better bass management is another statement that is a bit all-encompassing. Bass management can be as simple as selecting crossover frequencies between one or more channels and subwoofers, the crossover slopes, and properly steering a signal throughout the speaker set. In this case, I don't think ARC is inferior to Dirac at all.

The statement about ARC killing all reflections...well this is very dependent upon the maximum correction values you are asking the room correction software to intervene. If you want higher frequency correction, you can choose that. If you want to only correct into the bass/upper bass frequencies, then you can avoid messing with the "good reflections" if that is what you really want to keep.

And you cannot just call the ARC mic "not good". Have you tested the frequency response with the ARC mic and the UMIK mic to compare? I have, and for the frequencies where the mic is being used for textbook correction, they are both very accurate. Now if you're talking about mic accuracy at frequencies approaching 20K, then I'm not sure either mic is the best suited for this.

In the end, I don't think you can just discount ARC based on the criteria you listed. Dirac is a great room correction solution and so is ARC. It depends what you are looking to do with it.

Cheers!
Much to agree with in that post. I agree that both ARC and Dirac are good systems (I use both).

There are two areas where I think Dirac is ahead of ARC (& I hope ARC will catch up). First, ARC uses a proprietary mic, and with its cal file supplied encoded, it's impossible to have the calibration checked or redone. Even ARC Tech Support told me they could offer no way of recalibrating a mic. In contrast, the UMIK-1, with its calibration file in plain text, can be re-calibrated economically by an independent lab. It's great that @Bittermidget 's sample appears well calibrated, but it would be far better if any customer could have this checked by a specialty lab.

The second area where Dirac has the upper hand is flexibility in editing the target curve. ARC Genesis has provided a lot of flexibility at top and bottom ends and none in the middle. For music systems, small changes can be important -- to my ears, anyway -- and I want more flexibility in ARC.

A strong point of ARC is the well engineered hardware it appears on. I don't know of a box integrated with Dirac that offers tone controls, full bass management (including adjustable crossover frequency and slopes) for two subs in mono or stereo, and automatic phase adjustment, as the STR Preamp does.
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post #735 of 2061 Old 11-05-2019, 03:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike in NC View Post
Much to agree with in that post. I agree that both ARC and Dirac are good systems (I use both).

There are two areas where I think Dirac is ahead of ARC (& I hope ARC will catch up). First, ARC uses a proprietary mic, and with its cal file supplied encoded, it's impossible to have the calibration checked or redone. Even ARC Tech Support told me they could offer no way of recalibrating a mic. In contrast, the UMIK-1, with its calibration file in plain text, can be re-calibrated economically by an independent lab. It's great that @Bittermidget 's sample appears well calibrated, but it would be far better if any customer could have this checked by a specialty lab.

The second area where Dirac has the upper hand is flexibility in editing the target curve. ARC Genesis has provided a lot of flexibility at top and bottom ends and none in the middle. For music systems, small changes can be important -- to my ears, anyway -- and I want more flexibility in ARC.
in addition to that , Dirac enable impluse response correction, and use Mixed phase correction which should be more effective then minimun phase and linear-phase correction filters which i guess the ARC use? ...also but to a lesser extent, Dirac set the speakers delays/distances in time (time alignment ) which is also a plus....question is how do they realy compare to each other in real world performance
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Hi
Question!
If you set the filters in the ARC to 80 for the front and 80 for the subwoofer.
Why it shows error in AVM60 it gets 70 for front 120 for subwoofer.
If you then have 2 different filters one digital in ARC and one in AVM60 then there should be phase error depending on the slope used.
Lars
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post #737 of 2061 Old 11-05-2019, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Lars Bergvall View Post
Hi
Question!
If you set the filters in the ARC to 80 for the front and 80 for the subwoofer.
Why it shows error in AVM60 it gets 70 for front 120 for subwoofer.
If you then have 2 different filters one digital in ARC and one in AVM60 then there should be phase error depending on the slope used.
Lars
I guess I don't understand, you said "Why it shows error in AVM60". Where are you seeing the word error in the AVM 60?

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post #738 of 2061 Old 11-05-2019, 03:26 PM
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I guess I don't understand, you said "Why it shows error in AVM60". Where are you seeing the word error in the AVM 60?
Google translate it not show error.
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Google translate it not show error.
I'm sorry, but I have no idea what you are talking about???

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Originally Posted by Lars Bergvall View Post
Hi
Question!
If you set the filters in the ARC to 80 for the front and 80 for the subwoofer.
Why it shows error in AVM60 it gets 70 for front 120 for subwoofer.
If you then have 2 different filters one digital in ARC and one in AVM60 then there should be phase error depending on the slope used.
Lars
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Originally Posted by Legairre View Post
I'm sorry, but I have no idea what you are talking about???
Legairre , i think what he meant to say is that ARC is not uploading the correct crossover of his choice to the AVM60, and he gave an example that if he set the crossover at 80HZ for the front channels and the subs. after the setting has been uploaded to the AVM60, when he check to see the setting in the AVM60 , the crossover for the fronts would be at 70HZ instead of 80HZ and 120HZ for subs.
again i could be wrong
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Legairre , i think what he meant to say is that ARC is not uploading the correct crossover of his choice to the AVM60, and he gave an example that if he set the crossover at 80HZ for the front channels and the subs. after the setting has been uploaded to the AVM60, when he check to see the setting in the AVM60 , the crossover for the fronts would be at 70HZ instead of 80HZ and 120HZ for subs.
again i could be wrong
Hi
Yes ARC not uploade the right filters to AVM60 if i upploade 80 to front and 80 to the subwoofer in the ARC .It shows in avm60 to 70 for front and 120 for the subwoofer
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Legairre , i think what he meant to say is that ARC is not uploading the correct crossover of his choice to the AVM60, and he gave an example that if he set the crossover at 80HZ for the front channels and the subs. after the setting has been uploaded to the AVM60, when he check to see the setting in the AVM60 , the crossover for the fronts would be at 70HZ instead of 80HZ and 120HZ for subs.
again i could be wrong
Thanks marco for clearing that up for me. Not I understand what he was saying.

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post #743 of 2061 Old 11-06-2019, 07:16 AM
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Hi
Yes ARC not uploade the right filters to AVM60 if i upploade 80 to front and 80 to the subwoofer in the ARC .It shows in avm60 to 70 for front and 120 for the subwoofer
I've never had that happen. What version of Genesis are you on? Version 9105 has bugs and that may be one of them. The version before 9105 is 9006 and it very stable. I use 9006 and haven't had the issue you had. Are you using Genesis version 9105?

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post #744 of 2061 Old 11-06-2019, 07:38 AM
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I've never had that happen. What version of Genesis are you on? Version 9105 has bugs and that may be one of them. The version before 9105 is 9006 and it very stable. I use 9006 and haven't had the issue you had. Are you using Genesis version 9105?
Hi

I use Genesis 9105 this is the only one Anthem has now.
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post #745 of 2061 Old 11-06-2019, 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Lars Bergvall View Post
Hi

I use Genesis 9105 this is the only one Anthem has now.
I have all the previous versions of Genesis for Windows 64. If you're a Win64 user and want a copy of Genesis version 1.1.0.9006 send me your email address and I'd be happy to send it to you.

Legairre

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post #746 of 2061 Old 11-06-2019, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by marco1975 View Post
in addition to that , Dirac enable impluse response correction, and use Mixed phase correction which should be more effective then minimun phase and linear-phase correction filters which i guess the ARC use? ...also but to a lesser extent, Dirac set the speakers delays/distances in time (time alignment ) which is also a plus....question is how do they realy compare to each other in real world performance
Yes, good question. Because I use them in different systems in different rooms, i can't compare directly, but ARC gives outstanding results in my main 2.2 system. The crossover to subs is undetectable, and the bass is more even in FR than I've been able to achieve any other way. There is no added harshness or lack of transparency.

P.S. I don't think measuring distances to speakers is very difficult for the user, so I don't count that as a meaningful plus for Dirac. Nor is it clear that, in practice, the mixed-phase corrections of Dirac are superior to the minimum-phase corrections of ARC. The only empirical evidence I have is that when I used an expensive digital equalizer to generate linear-phase corrections manually, I thought they sounded worse than equivalent minimum-phase corrections.

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post #747 of 2061 Old 11-06-2019, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Legairre View Post
I have all the previous versions of Genesis for Windows 64. If you're a Win64 user and want a copy of Genesis version 1.1.0.9006 send me your email address and I'd be happy to send it to you.

Legairre
Hi.
i need to have 15 posts before i can send pm.
But thanks for the thought.
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post #748 of 2061 Old 11-06-2019, 09:47 AM
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Hi.
i need to have 15 posts before i can send pm.
But thanks for the thought.
If you want I can pm you with my email and then you can send me an email.

EDIT: Never mind I threw the .zip up on my google drive and I just pm-ed you a link and you can download it from there.

Also I'm not sure if you know it but each profile in Genesis is independent of the others, so if you set profile1 to 80 fronts and 80 subwoofer make sure after you upload to the AVM that you are looking at profile1 because the other profiles in Genesis and the AVM will have their old values unless you changed those as well.

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Last edited by Legairre; 11-06-2019 at 10:53 AM.
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post #749 of 2061 Old 11-06-2019, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Legairre View Post
If you want I can pm you with my email and then you can send me an email.

EDIT: Never mind I threw the .zip up on my google drive and I just pm-ed you a link and you can download it from there.

Also I'm not sure if you know it but each profile in Genesis is independent of the others, so if you set profile1 to 80 fronts and 80 subwoofer make sure after you upload to the AVM that you are looking at profile1 because the other profiles in Genesis and the AVM will have their old values unless you changed those as well.

Legairre
Tank you for the file .yes i now on each file is independent .
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post #750 of 2061 Old 11-06-2019, 11:36 AM
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Tank you for the file .yes i now on each file is independent .
Glad to help Lars. Anthem says if you use another version of Genesis you should run Genesis all over again. Don't just upload your Genesis 9105 .ARC3 file into 9006. You should rerun Genesis all over again with 9006 and get a new .ARC3 file made with with 9006.

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Last edited by Legairre; 11-06-2019 at 12:25 PM.
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