Dedicated ARC Genesis thread - Page 32 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #931 of 980 Old 01-14-2020, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by John Frank View Post
Just set up my MRX 720, ran ARC with only one back surround and it pauses with a red error message. Until I can build and place another rear surround is there a way to get past the error message so I can continue. I don't see an option to run ARC with a 6.1 system.

Yeah, it wants to work in speaker pairs, except for the center....

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post #932 of 980 Old 01-15-2020, 04:20 AM
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When I first ran genesis and played battlefield on ps4 then gun shots were very pronounced. I could almost feel every shot. The deep sound was coming almost from the centre channel and subs I’m guessing. Never experienced it before it was awesome. I then re ran as I changed my subs and now it’s gone back to normal. I don’t get that same impact. What could have changed?
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post #933 of 980 Old 01-15-2020, 06:25 AM
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Ran ARC for the first time yesterday. My system is able to output from 20 - 20K hertz and the bass and treble are drastically rolled off. Fronts are rolled off beginning at 12K and the bass doesn't start kickin' in until about 40 Hz. There's also a big suck out at 80Hz of the "corrected" bass curve. Why wouldn't ARC bump that up? Front crossover set at 140 Hz!

Overall it sounds thin now.

Sorry for the poor on screen shots. Comments welcome, PLEASE.
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post #934 of 980 Old 01-15-2020, 06:44 AM
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Originally Posted by John Frank View Post
Ran ARC for the first time yesterday. My system is able to output from 20 - 20K hertz and the bass and treble are drastically rolled off. Fronts are rolled off beginning at 12K and the bass doesn't start kickin' in until about 40 Hz. There's also a big suck out at 80Hz of the "corrected" bass curve. Why wouldn't ARC bump that up? Front crossover set at 140 Hz!

Overall it sounds thin now.

Sorry for the poor on screen shots. Comments welcome, PLEASE.
Channels other than your sub look pretty good though there is a hump from about 4k to 10k. It might be characteristic of the speakers or perhaps the room. What speakers are you using? Can you share a bit about your room, such as acoustic treatment, carpeting, windows, hard surfaces, etc.?

That sub suck-out at 80 Hz is curious. Is that possibly a sub location issue? Also, could that be the source of why it sounds thin now?

IME ARC does more to flatten frequencies that are too hot rather than boosting frequencies that are too low.
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post #935 of 980 Old 01-15-2020, 07:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill-99 View Post
Channels other than your sub look pretty good though there is a hump from about 4k to 10k. It might be characteristic of the speakers or perhaps the room. What speakers are you using? Can you share a bit about your room, such as acoustic treatment, carpeting, windows, hard surfaces, etc.?

Very live room, laminate floors with one large rug. Please see the pix. MTM fronts sit on large 15" drivers with the bass driver about 5" from the back wall. All 3 fronts match, hand built using Focal drivers and Accuton ceramic tweeter. I plugged up the bass port slot at the back thinking sealed would tighten up the sound. Little did I realize it also dropped out the midbass. I'll knock those plugs out soon and open up the port. Crossing them over at 140 Hz seem ridiculous to me.


Quote:
That sub suck-out at 80 Hz is curious. Is that possibly a sub location issue? Also, could that be the source of why it sounds thin now?
Yep. I kept my stands the L/R fronts were on for many years so I could move the subs anywhere along the front wall. I just like the look now.
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post #936 of 980 Old 01-15-2020, 07:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Frank View Post
Very live room, laminate floors with one large rug. Please see the pix. MTM fronts sit on large 15" drivers with the bass driver about 5" from the back wall. All 3 fronts match, hand built using Focal drivers and Accuton ceramic tweeter. I plugged up the bass port slot at the back thinking sealed would tighten up the sound. Little did I realize it also dropped out the midbass. I'll knock those plugs out soon and open up the port. Crossing them over at 140 Hz seem ridiculous to me.


Yep. I kept my stands the L/R fronts were on for many years so I could move the subs anywhere along the front wall. I just like the look now.
I tend to crossover at 80 Hz, which has been great in my room, with my gear, etc. Good call out about the port plugs. I wonder that has something to do with that suck-out.

What upper frequency limit are you using with ARC?


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post #937 of 980 Old 01-15-2020, 03:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill-99 View Post
Channels other than your sub look pretty good though there is a hump from about 4k to 10k. It might be characteristic of the speakers or perhaps the room. What speakers are you using? Can you share a bit about your room, such as acoustic treatment, carpeting, windows, hard surfaces, etc.?

That sub suck-out at 80 Hz is curious. Is that possibly a sub location issue? Also, could that be the source of why it sounds thin now?

IME ARC does more to flatten frequencies that are too hot rather than boosting frequencies that are too low.
Agreed. It looks like that suck out was there pre ARC and it couldn't safely apply enough boost to get it up to the target level to flatten it out. I'd suggest trying different placement options for the subs to see if that can help flatten the curve out before running ARC. The quick measure feature can help with that.
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post #938 of 980 Old 01-15-2020, 05:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Frank View Post
Very live room, laminate floors with one large rug. Please see the pix. MTM fronts sit on large 15" drivers with the bass driver about 5" from the back wall. All 3 fronts match, hand built using Focal drivers and Accuton ceramic tweeter. I plugged up the bass port slot at the back thinking sealed would tighten up the sound. Little did I realize it also dropped out the midbass. I'll knock those plugs out soon and open up the port. Crossing them over at 140 Hz seem ridiculous to me.

Yep. I kept my stands the L/R fronts were on for many years so I could move the subs anywhere along the front wall. I just like the look now.
Frank, run quick measure for just the sub. Quick measure disables Genesis so you'll have to upload your ARC file again afterwards. If the suck out is there when running quick measure then it was already there and the only way to get rid of it is to run quick measure and move the sub until it's gone. It's a null and nulls are due to the room and sub placement.


Genesis will boost a null up to 6dB, but it doesn't create nulls like that.

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post #939 of 980 Old 01-15-2020, 09:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Frank View Post
Ran ARC for the first time yesterday. My system is able to output from 20 - 20K hertz and the bass and treble are drastically rolled off. Fronts are rolled off beginning at 12K and the bass doesn't start kickin' in until about 40 Hz. There's also a big suck out at 80Hz of the "corrected" bass curve. Why wouldn't ARC bump that up? Front crossover set at 140 Hz!

Overall it sounds thin now.

Sorry for the poor on screen shots. Comments welcome, PLEASE.
The older version of ARC (D2 time) did not want to do correction above certain limit (I think it was 6db) because it introduce more audible error.
So the rules was to get your room in such way that you do not get a big dip or a big hump.
You can move speaker and furniture around while using the quick measure.
The other rules is if you have big speaker (e.g. subwoofer) do put them that do not amplify one of the frequency, like the distance from the speaker to floor, from the speaker to the backwall, from the speaker to sidewall should all be different like 1ft, 3ft, 4ft.

Then run arc to fix the rest.
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post #940 of 980 Old 01-16-2020, 06:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Legairre View Post
Frank, run quick measure for just the sub. Quick measure disables Genesis so you'll have to upload your ARC file again afterwards. If the suck out is there when running quick measure then it was already there and the only way to get rid of it is to run quick measure and move the sub until it's gone. It's a null and nulls are due to the room and sub placement.

Genesis will boost a null up to 6dB, but it doesn't create nulls like that.
Thanks, will do.

BTW do you have to measure/enter the distance from the speakers to the main listening chair like in the old days? If so I didn't do it.
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post #941 of 980 Old 01-16-2020, 06:14 AM
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Originally Posted by tranle View Post
The older version of ARC (D2 time) did not want to do correction above certain limit (I think it was 6db) because it introduce more audible error.
So the rules was to get your room in such way that you do not get a big dip or a big hump.
You can move speaker and furniture around while using the quick measure.
The other rules is if you have big speaker (e.g. subwoofer) do put them that do not amplify one of the frequency, like the distance from the speaker to floor, from the speaker to the backwall, from the speaker to sidewall should all be different like 1ft, 3ft, 4ft.

Then run arc to fix the rest.
OK, will do.

Today I'll move the subs around. I really have never gotten full value out of these incredible Lambda subs I built mainly because I have just traded out of an old Denon which was crap to use with too many gimmicks and a manual that was hard to understand. Bass management was a PITA with that thing.

12" old sub on the left, my new 15" on the right. Fs of the driver is something like 16 Hz.
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post #942 of 980 Old 01-16-2020, 06:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill-99 View Post
I tend to crossover at 80 Hz, which has been great in my room, with my gear, etc. Good call out about the port plugs. I wonder that has something to do with that suck-out.

What upper frequency limit are you using with ARC?
Being it was my first run and not knowing squat about the program I didn't set any limit. I let it do its thing. ARC set the Xover at 140 Hz. I bet ya'll spend hours learning this program and playing around with it.
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post #943 of 980 Old 01-16-2020, 07:53 AM
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Being it was my first run and not knowing squat about the program I didn't set any limit. I let it do its thing. ARC set the Xover at 140 Hz. I bet ya'll spend hours learning this program and playing around with it.
Hours? I wish it was just hours. But it's a hobby so... it's been a lot of fun.

There are lots of knobs in ARC Genesis for tweaking the heck out of your setup. Two often used are the crossover point and the MaxEQ frequency.

People seem to use quite a few different frequencies for crossover. I have stayed with 80 Hz which is a decent enough value for most situations (in my room, with my gear, etc.). A higher crossover point also risks localization issues, i.e. you can hear where the sound originates instead of it simply being all around you. YMMV.

MaxEQ frequency tells ARC Genesis the highest frequency to correct. It defaults to 5K. Many people advocate using a value closer to Schroder (maybe 300-400 Hz) and there are good reasons to consider this. But it kind of depends IMO. With a less than ideal room and less than ideal speakers a higher value can work out better. With the speakers I had before the Revels, a value of 11K worked best. Some people have had good results correcting up to 20K. Thinking about that bump in your higher frequencies, it might be worth some time to try a higher value to see if you get results you like. Anthem has called out that frequencies above 5K get very directional and results of higher MaxEQ values may not work well. Again, YMMV.

Lastly, Anthem used to offer users feedback on configuring ARC if you'd send them your ARC file. I have done that in the past and they had some useful suggestions that improved sound quality a bit.
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post #944 of 980 Old 01-16-2020, 07:59 AM
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Originally Posted by John Frank View Post
BTW do you have to measure/enter the distance from the speakers to the main listening chair like in the old days? If so I didn't do it.

You do have to measure manually. For the sub, add the distances and take the average if they are not equidistant (what I did anyway) - and that works pretty well in my system, YMMV. Feel free to experiment though, especially with the subs and the distances you use until you get what sounds best to you.
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post #945 of 980 Old 01-16-2020, 08:13 AM
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Thanks folks for the info. I'm collecting posts such as yours as reference when I do my tweeks. Really helps.....
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post #946 of 980 Old 01-16-2020, 08:35 AM
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Thanks folks for the info. I'm collecting posts such as yours as reference when I do my tweeks. Really helps.....

That is a great idea! It's not in the Genesis thread, and I wish I knew where it was, one of the Anthem threads if I remember correctly, but one member even used false distance settings and got great results. I don't know if it's worth searching for it, but point being, depending on the physics and everything that factors into sub responses, it can be a LOT of experimenting - but that it ultimately pays offs. Good luck! I know it's a lot of work, and it can wear thin on one's patience - but persist - and you shall (hopefully) be rewarded!
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post #947 of 980 Old 01-16-2020, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by John Frank View Post
Thanks, will do.

BTW do you have to measure/enter the distance from the speakers to the main listening chair like in the old days? If so I didn't do it.
Yes you have to measure the speaker distances with a tape measure and put the values into the Anthem speakers distance screen. You can do it after running Genesis.
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post #948 of 980 Old 01-16-2020, 12:39 PM
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Ok so I have a question for you guys in the know ...
I'm trying to set my sub distance.

I have four identical subs, 2 on the front wall and 2 on the back wall mirroring the front 2 subs.

MLP is 12' from my front speakers and 11' from my front 2 subs.
My rear 2 subs are 7' behind MLP.

What do you suggest (approximately) I should set the distance at for this setup in the Anthem?

Thanks in advance..

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post #949 of 980 Old 01-16-2020, 03:30 PM
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Where do you enter the distances?
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post #950 of 980 Old 01-16-2020, 04:31 PM
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In the AVR menuing system. Outside of ARC Genesis.


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post #951 of 980 Old 01-16-2020, 05:09 PM
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That is a great idea! It's not in the Genesis thread, and I wish I knew where it was, one of the Anthem threads if I remember correctly, but one member even used false distance settings and got great results. I don't know if it's worth searching for it, but point being, depending on the physics and everything that factors into sub responses, it can be a LOT of experimenting - but that it ultimately pays offs. Good luck! I know it's a lot of work, and it can wear thin on one's patience - but persist - and you shall (hopefully) be rewarded!
I remember that thread as well. Experimenting with distances a few feet to maybe double actually distance. The premise, as I recall, was to get sub & mains in phase and/or shift a null from MLP.
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post #952 of 980 Old 01-16-2020, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by madrac View Post
I remember that thread as well. Experimenting with distances a few feet to maybe double actually distance. The premise, as I recall, was to get sub & mains in phase and/or shift a null from MLP.
Has Anthem released a new firmware for ARC in the last several months? I assume the trip and graph error in the software are still present?

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post #953 of 980 Old 01-16-2020, 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by WOKNROX View Post
Ok so I have a question for you guys in the know ...
I'm trying to set my sub distance.

I have four identical subs, 2 on the front wall and 2 on the back wall mirroring the front 2 subs.

MLP is 12' from my front speakers and 11' from my front 2 subs.
My rear 2 subs are 7' behind MLP.

What do you suggest (approximately) I should set the distance at for this setup in the Anthem?

Thanks in advance..
The two rear subs are 4' closer to you than the two fronts at MLP. Some will tell you to get close and take an average of the two distance (9' in your case). It's not a huge difference in distance, but if you want all 4 subs firing at exactly the same time, you will need to add delay to the 2 rear subs (making the distance farther in the Anthem will add the needed delay).

Problem is, you only have one sub signal from the anthem going to all 4 subs. You are a perfect candidate for a miniDSP where you can add delay to only the 2 rear subs.

In reality, will you be able to tell the difference of 4 feet? Guess it depends.

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post #954 of 980 Old 01-16-2020, 06:41 PM
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I remember that thread as well. Experimenting with distances a few feet to maybe double actually distance. The premise, as I recall, was to get sub & mains in phase and/or shift a null from MLP.
I believe you guys are referring to this thread. I've pasted it threads a number of times because it really illustrates many of the techniques with examples of how to properly integrate multiple subs. It's not the only way, but it is an effective way.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...ow-thread.html
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post #955 of 980 Old 01-16-2020, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Bittermidget View Post
The two rear subs are 4' closer to you than the two fronts at MLP. Some will tell you to get close and take an average of the two distance (9' in your case). It's not a huge difference in distance, but if you want all 4 subs firing at exactly the same time, you will need to add delay to the 2 rear subs (making the distance farther in the Anthem will add the needed delay).

Problem is, you only have one sub signal from the anthem going to all 4 subs. You are a perfect candidate for a miniDSP where you can add delay to only the 2 rear subs.

In reality, will you be able to tell the difference of 4 feet? Guess it depends.
Thanks... I have it set at 10' now but was wondering what you guys think...

I have ordered a miniDSP-HD2x4 and should be here for the weekend.

Can't wait to check it out...

Orotund Desert Theater:14'x20'x10',100amp service, JVC RS620, 120" AT screen, Carada Masquerade Masking, OPPO-203 & Panny ub820, Anthem AVM60, Simaudio Moon Titan 7&5 channel amplifiers, ACInfinity Fans, L&R Polk SDA SRStl Fully built, CC 2 Polk RTA15tl in Custom Cabinets Fully build, SS-BS Triad Gold, 4 Atmos 3 way Core5's, Subs-4 HSU VTF-15H-MK2, 2 Rows of 3 Seatcraft Excalibur Lx Seats and more.
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post #956 of 980 Old 01-16-2020, 07:34 PM
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Where do you enter the distances?

In the MRX's main setup menu, "Listener Position" - you can set them for each of the speakers profiles.


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Originally Posted by madrac View Post
I remember that thread as well. Experimenting with distances a few feet to maybe double actually distance. The premise, as I recall, was to get sub & mains in phase and/or shift a null from MLP.

Yeah, that sounds right!


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I believe you guys are referring to this thread. I've pasted it threads a number of times because it really illustrates many of the techniques with examples of how to properly integrate multiple subs. It's not the only way, but it is an effective way.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...ow-thread.html

Very well could be that thread, maybe somewhere in the 2017 era??

7.2.4 System: Display: Sony XBR-65X930D; Processing: Anthem AVM60
Mains:
Paradigm Prestige 85F and 55C; Side / Rear Surrounds: Totem Acoustic Tribe III / Tribe I; Amplification: D-Sonic M3a-2800-7 (7ch. x 400w)
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Definitive Technology DI8R; Amplification: Class D Audio SDS-470C (4ch. x 300w)
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post #957 of 980 Old 01-16-2020, 07:48 PM
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Ran ARC for the first time yesterday. My system is able to output from 20 - 20K hertz and the bass and treble are drastically rolled off. Fronts are rolled off beginning at 12K and the bass doesn't start kickin' in until about 40 Hz. There's also a big suck out at 80Hz of the "corrected" bass curve. Why wouldn't ARC bump that up? Front crossover set at 140 Hz!

Overall it sounds thin now.

Sorry for the poor on screen shots. Comments welcome, PLEASE.
Nice custom builds, I used to make my own speakers too. Have to check are you measuring with the tip of the mic facing the ceiling? It shoudl be in all positions. Also be sure to use the calibration file for the serial number of your mic. I ask because it looks like your speakers have some high frequency energy from 5k-10. The calibrated mic included isn't known to be highly accurate over 5k so you can probably disregard the rolloff they most likey extend more . Also I didnt see you rear speakers in the pics, are they ceiling mounted? You may want to use the quick measure feature to try to get a flatter response to below 140hz if you have port plugs and such

I guess you have 2 subs? Before you move you subs around you should try raising your sub levels individually using the quick measure to get it closer to 75db. Shut one off and set it at 71db from your main position, turn the other on set it at 71 db. Then with both on you should be around 75-77db avg from 50hz-100hz. Your level is a little low right now. Genesis cuts better than boosts so that may help your 80hz issue.. Also if there i is a crossover on your subs you should set it to about 150hz, no need to have it play higher than your mains, also make sure your phase is set ot 0 on both it looks like they may be set for bypass and have a lot of energy from 500-2k less than 10 db down from 50hz level.
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post #958 of 980 Old 01-16-2020, 08:00 PM
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Where do you enter the distances?
Press setup on the remote, then MAIN MENU >> LISTENER POSITION. You have to set the distances for each profile.
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post #959 of 980 Old 01-17-2020, 05:29 AM
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Yes you have to measure the speaker distances with a tape measure and put the values into the Anthem speakers distance screen. You can do it after running Genesis.
Thanks! As a newbie I'm not finding ARC to be very intuitive. You'd think they would have an OPTIONS link...or maybe I'm just impatient compared to 40 years ago. Ya think?

From the PDF file, run yesterday. What in the heck does that 250 Hz crossover mean? Is this for real, it set the crossover from the subs to 250 Hz?

SUBWOOFER(S)
Subwoofer Crossover Frequency (or Low-Frequency Extension): 250 Hz
High-Pass Frequency: 26 Hz
High-Pass Slope: 3rd
Minimum Correction Frequency: 22 Hz

Fronts run/curve shows this info, or 120 Hz:

FRONTS
Subwoofer Crossover Frequency (or Low-Frequency Extension): 120 Hz
Send Bass to Sub (or Low-Frequency Extension Slope): Send bass to the sub
High-Frequency Roll Off: 1.42
Maximum Correction Frequency: 5000 Hz

BTW, I spent hours moving the subs around, running Quick Measure and still have that 80 Hz null albeit ARC corrected it quite a bit. I trialed them first moving them inches, then side by side inches apart, 1-12' apart, one in the center and one in the corner, etc. etc....you name it, I tried it.

If the null was around say....150 Hz, then I could set the crossover from the subs below it but 80 Hz is getting into the pretty rich bass area. Haven't gotten around to the Bass Management stuff yet. Think it will help?

Thanks
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post #960 of 980 Old 01-17-2020, 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by John Frank View Post
Thanks! As a newbie I'm not finding ARC to be very intuitive. You'd think they would have an OPTIONS link...or maybe I'm just impatient compared to 40 years ago. Ya think?

From the PDF file, run yesterday. What in the heck does that 250 Hz crossover mean? Is this for real, it set the crossover from the subs to 250 Hz?

SUBWOOFER(S)
Subwoofer Crossover Frequency (or Low-Frequency Extension): 250 Hz
High-Pass Frequency: 26 Hz
High-Pass Slope: 3rd
Minimum Correction Frequency: 22 Hz

Fronts run/curve shows this info, or 120 Hz:

FRONTS
Subwoofer Crossover Frequency (or Low-Frequency Extension): 120 Hz
Send Bass to Sub (or Low-Frequency Extension Slope): Send bass to the sub
High-Frequency Roll Off: 1.42
Maximum Correction Frequency: 5000 Hz

BTW, I spent hours moving the subs around, running Quick Measure and still have that 80 Hz null albeit ARC corrected it quite a bit. I trialed them first moving them inches, then side by side inches apart, 1-12' apart, one in the center and one in the corner, etc. etc....you name it, I tried it.

If the null was around say....150 Hz, then I could set the crossover from the subs below it but 80 Hz is getting into the pretty rich bass area. Haven't gotten around to the Bass Management stuff yet. Think it will help?

Thanks
That 250 Hz value is what ARC is selecting for how high it is allowing your subs to contribute to the solution, mainly for the LFE channel. My understanding is that the LFE channel can contain information much higher in frequency than the sub channel used for sources like music. Do not get worried by that value.

It's putting a 3rd order (18 dB) high pass filter on your subs at 26 Hz and allowing the sub to be corrected down to 22 Hz. Those values also look fine.

Looks like your mains are now being crossed over at 120 Hz vs. the 140 Hz you had on previous run. Did you open the ports for this run?

FInally, with that 80 hz null...you've probably been placing the mic in you main listening position while moving subs? If moving the subs around does not help enough, try using quick measure and walk the MIC several feet behind your couch. Watch the response. Do this in a number of different locations and see if the 80 hz null fills in. The reason I mention this is because your seating location may be located in a null.

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