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post #2011 of 2085 Old 06-30-2020, 12:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pn56Matt View Post
Thanks for the response. I guess the benefits of the miniDSP can throw a wrench in the benefits of ARC. Believe me though, ARC works wonders in my room without a minDSP.
Yep, ARC would be nice it if actually did what it predicts but as we both experienced and measured the prediction before we run the process and the results after are two distinct results. As opposed to REW EQ which is remarkably spot on with its predictions and results. However running them in reversed order seems to be a good compromise. I wish I could just run ARC without touching anything below the x over point.

Another thing to watch out for and I learned this the hard way too is phase between the mains and subs. This is yet another thing that no one will tell you not even Anthem themselves. They say adjust sub distance anytime before or after calibration. BS!! And its not physical distance its phase/delay control!

I found that running ARC also screws up phase shifts big time by trying to align the subs with the mains. The proof of this is again is in the control measurement graphs. Before ARC I manually align the two subs beautifully so there is just one phase shift so they play nicely together then adjust sub distance to the mains in the AVR to align them altogether. This gets rid of any unwanted dips around the x over point and all is nice and tight.

All is fine until I ran ARC! After the upload I get 4-6 phase shifts and valleys of dips around the crossover point. THIS IS the time to align them again to get rid of the dips and make sure they integrate well, so you do need to re-adjust sub distance AFTER running ARC as well to smooth out the crossover and fully integrate the subs.
Again just do your measurement before and after with phase displaying and you'll see.

No one would notice this without measuring the results. Yet once adjusted well the results are great but automatically it won't do it. The phase shifts remain as ARC does who knows what though but it does not seem to affect the end result once distance has been dialed in.

It would worth talking to someone at Anthem to fully understand what it actually does but I doubt we would get an answer.
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post #2012 of 2085 Old 06-30-2020, 12:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bandyka View Post
Yep, ARC would be nice it if actually did what it predicts but as we both experienced and measured the prediction before we run the process and the results after are two distinct results. As opposed to REW EQ which is remarkably spot on with its predictions and results. However running them in reversed order seems to be a good compromise. I wish I could just run ARC without touching anything below the x over point.

Another thing to watch out for and I learned this the hard way too is phase between the mains and subs. This is yet another thing that no one will tell you not even Anthem themselves. They say adjust sub distance anytime before or after calibration. BS!! And its not physical distance its phase/delay control!

I found that running ARC also screws up phase shifts big time by trying to align the subs with the mains. The proof of this is again is in the control measurement graphs. Before ARC I manually align the two subs beautifully so there is just one phase shift so they play nicely together then adjust sub distance to the mains in the AVR to align them altogether. This gets rid of any unwanted dips around the x over point and all is nice and tight.

All is fine until I ran ARC! After the upload I get 4-6 phase shifts and valleys of dips around the crossover point. THIS IS the time to align them again to get rid of the dips and make sure they integrate well, so you do need to re-adjust sub distance AFTER running ARC as well to smooth out the crossover and fully integrate the subs.
Again just do your measurement before and after with phase displaying and you'll see.

No one would notice this without measuring the results. Yet once adjusted well the results are great but automatically it won't do it. The phase shifts remain as ARC does who knows what though but it does not seem to affect the end result once distance has been dialed in.

It would worth talking to someone at Anthem to fully understand what it actually does but I doubt we would get an answer.
I appreciate the feedback.

Using the Acoustic Timing Reference, it’s showing my L and R are millimeters off (can’t do anything about it with current equipment, and Anthem doesn’t use tenths of a foot for measure. The subs are within an inch according to the response time. Currently I have sub distance at 19’ when the center of the closest woofer is 4.5’ and the furthest is 11’ away from the MLP. When using miniDSP to apply a delay, the measurements change a fraction of an inch either way with the slightest change. I’ve added anywhere between .15 and 1.0 delay but the result will be just ahead or just behind the mains.

I’m having another AVS member look at my mdat file to help figure out the crossover point. It seems that am missing some material just after the crossover point. If we can’t fix it with timing, I might see about changing the subs crossover to 90He or even 100Hz in the Adjustment tab, and upload it again since changing it manually through the receiver didn’t really seem to do anything to the sub. I didn’t however, raise the LCR above 80Hz. This could be the reason also. I’m still learning.
Thanks for the info. I may need to contact Anthem. I have a fairly flexible schedule to do so.

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post #2013 of 2085 Old 06-30-2020, 02:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pn56Matt View Post
I have the Beta, but it wasn’t showing up as the v.1.2.3. Just clicked on th link you provided, and it does now. Strange. Thanks.

Do I need to remeasure, or can I use sweeps I currently have? I’m assuming I can.

No worries.


If you ran with 1.2.2, I think you can use these sweeps with 1.2.3 since, from the release notes, the only difference was a fix for Persona 9H (which they also note to rerun sweeps for this fix to take affect). I reused my 1.2.2 beta sweeps with 1.2.3 beta and sounds fine.
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post #2014 of 2085 Old 06-30-2020, 03:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pn56Matt View Post
I appreciate the feedback.

Using the Acoustic Timing Reference, it’s showing my L and R are millimeters off (can’t do anything about it with current equipment, and Anthem doesn’t use tenths of a foot for measure. The subs are within an inch according to the response time. Currently I have sub distance at 19’ when the center of the closest woofer is 4.5’ and the furthest is 11’ away from the MLP. When using miniDSP to apply a delay, the measurements change a fraction of an inch either way with the slightest change. I’ve added anywhere between .15 and 1.0 delay but the result will be just ahead or just behind the mains.

I’m having another AVS member look at my mdat file to help figure out the crossover point. It seems that am missing some material just after the crossover point. If we can’t fix it with timing, I might see about changing the subs crossover to 90He or even 100Hz in the Adjustment tab, and upload it again since changing it manually through the receiver didn’t really seem to do anything to the sub. I didn’t however, raise the LCR above 80Hz. This could be the reason also. I’m still learning.
Thanks for the info. I may need to contact Anthem. I have a fairly flexible schedule to do so.
No worries, yes that is an issue as we cannot accurately fix phase/delay with the rough adjustments in the AVR which results in slightly out of phase results no matter what. It would be nice to see what Anthem has to say about this.

You can raise the x over to even at 100hz but that won't change the problem with delay the issues will just move up the frequency range. What we need is the ability to accurately adjust, which we don't seem to have in the AVR.
Please do let me know if you make any progress on this front as I am keen to understand what can be done to mitigate this.

I might give Anthem a hoy as well.
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post #2015 of 2085 Old 06-30-2020, 03:42 AM
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I've just sent an email to Anthem, see what they have to say.
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post #2016 of 2085 Old 06-30-2020, 10:49 AM
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Crossover Point and Overall Response

I've attached two pictures showing the 10-20kHz results using Acoustic Timing Reference. I used 1/6 smoothing so it's easier to read.

Does it look like I'm missing much around the crossover point? In my very limited experience with what it should look like around the crossover point, it looks like I'm not missing anything. However, I was expecting everything to meet at 80Hz. Maybe there is a very slight delay with the center causing it to be just off?

I thought I had a L+R with and without Subs, but I guess I don't. I could do one of those if that's what's needed instead of the individuals.

Please Note that even though the sub has (120Hz) next to it is not what I set it at pre upload. I set it at 80Hz. The 120Hz is what's set in the Bass Management for LFE.

Before measurements, I make the following changes below to bring my subs to +2.5dB over what is uploaded to the receiver.
1. Anthem Level Calibration: From +3 to +8
2. Anthem Subwoofer Level: From 0 to -5
3. miniDSP: Input +2.5

Pic 1 has no subs on with the mains, while pic 2 has the subs on with them.
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post #2017 of 2085 Old 06-30-2020, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by pn56Matt View Post
Thanks for your response. Let me clarify though. In the Adjusment settings tab in the software, choose the Subwoofer’s crossover to be 80Hz. This is separate from the Minimum Correction Frequency (MCF). I usually leave the MCF at 15Hz or I put it to 80Hz. Regardless of where I put the MCE, once I’ve uploaded the file to the receiver, it has arbitrarily set the Bass Management Level for the sub to 120Hz. I can’t seem to figure out how to make what I select in the Adjustment section in the software actually upload up to the receiver. I will provide pictures of my sweeps tomorrow as it still seems that the subs are crossed over at 89Hz base on the roll off.
Matt so we're on the same page where are you seeing the sub crossover? I see these on these on the sub page in Genesis.
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Dedicated ARC Genesis Thread

Last edited by Legairre; 06-30-2020 at 12:46 PM.
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post #2018 of 2085 Old 06-30-2020, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pn56Matt View Post
I've attached two pictures showing the 10-20kHz results using Acoustic Timing Reference. I used 1/6 smoothing so it's easier to read.

Does it look like I'm missing much around the crossover point? In my very limited experience with what it should look like around the crossover point, it looks like I'm not missing anything. However, I was expecting everything to meet at 80Hz. Maybe there is a very slight delay with the center causing it to be just off?

I thought I had a L+R with and without Subs, but I guess I don't. I could do one of those if that's what's needed instead of the individuals.

Please Note that even though the sub has (120Hz) next to it is not what I set it at pre upload. I set it at 80Hz. The 120Hz is what's set in the Bass Management for LFE.

Before measurements, I make the following changes below to bring my subs to +2.5dB over what is uploaded to the receiver.
1. Anthem Level Calibration: From +3 to +8
2. Anthem Subwoofer Level: From 0 to -5
3. miniDSP: Input +2.5

Pic 1 has no subs on with the mains, while pic 2 has the subs on with them.
Can you just take one measurement with the two mains and subs and just one with wit the two mains and no sub and post? So we just have one line in the graph combined and please don't use smoothing.

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Originally Posted by Legairre View Post
Matt so we're on the same page where are you seeing the sub crossover? I see these on these on the sub page in Genesis.
Thank you for pointing this out. That went right over my head, and I'm a little embarrassed. I've never looked at the LFE portion. I've always looked at the I've been referring to the High Frequency Extension as the crossover point since it was the first option, and the LFE only goes up to 80Hz.

The LFE should be set to 80zH, shouldn't it. If I select 80Hz for the LFE, then what should I select for the HFE? What does the HFE really do then?

I noticed that I need to set the LFE Slope "Flat" or "1st" in order to avoid a big rising curve to the 40Hz mark.

I really appreciate your help!

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post #2020 of 2085 Old 06-30-2020, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pn56Matt View Post
Thank you for pointing this out. That went right over my head, and I'm a little embarrassed. I've never looked at the LFE portion. I've always looked at the I've been referring to the High Frequency Extension as the crossover point since it was the first option, and the LFE only goes up to 80Hz.

The LFE should be set to 80zH, shouldn't it. If I select 80Hz for the LFE, then what should I select for the HFE? What does the HFE really do then?

I noticed that I need to set the LFE Slope "Flat" or "1st" in order to avoid a big rising curve to the 40Hz mark.

I really appreciate your help!
Oh no reason to be embarrassed there's a lot going on with some things in Genesis and others in the Anthem itself. The High Frequency Extension is the highest frequency the sub will play. You should leave it to whatever Genesis sets it at. As you know the Low Frequency Extension is the lowest frequency the sub will play. So if your HFE is 250Hz and your LFE is 15Hz then your sub will play frequencies sent to it between 15-250Hz so your sub has a high and low limit to what it will play..

The subwoofer crossover is actually in the Anthem on the Bass Management screen and mine was set by Genesis at 120Hz. I'd set the sub to flat and let it play as low as it is capable of. The sub has an internal limiter so you won't damage the sub.

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Dedicated ARC Genesis Thread
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Originally Posted by Legairre View Post
Oh no reason to be embarrassed there's a lot going on with some things in Genesis and others in the Anthem itself. The High Frequency Extension is the highest frequency the sub will play. You should leave it to whatever Genesis sets it at. As you know the Low Frequency Extension is the lowest frequency the sub will play. So if your HFE is 250Hz and your LFE is 15Hz then your sub will play frequencies sent to it between 15-250Hz so your sub has a high and low limit to what it will play..

The subwoofer crossover is actually in the Anthem on the Bass Management screen and mine was set by Genesis at 120Hz. I'd set the sub to flat and let it play as low as it is capable of. The sub has an internal limiter so you won't damage the sub.
Good to know I was not wrong about leaving the LFE at 15Hz then. I will leave the HFE at the recommended 225Hz rather than changing it to 80Hz. Hopefully that makes the difference. I'm going to upload them now, and will post results in my reply to Bandyka's most recent post. Thank you!

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Something kind of cool with my most recent ARC genesis calibration.

I used a miniDSP to align my subs and apply an REW curve. I applied in the miniDSP a 48 octave drop-off at 18 Hz when building my curve.

After running ARC, it gave me a 7th order slope with a 18 Hz roll-off point and a with a 15 Hz low extension.

Without the miniDSP, I typically get a 4th, 3rd, or 2nd order slope with a 24 Hz rolloff and a 20 Hz low extension.

Great to see that the miniDSP curve truly does impact the subs in a measurable way with ARC.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bandyka View Post
Can you just take one measurement with the two mains and subs and just one with wit the two mains and no sub and post? So we just have one line in the graph combined and please don't use smoothing.
Here are the results. I changed the default crossover in Bass Management from 120Hz to 100Hz. LCR are all crossed over at 80Hz.

I attached extra pictures because I was unclear if you wanted the "mains" as L and R or L+R. I also included the C in one as well as a combined C+subs and L+R with subs. All others are without subs.

The major change I made was changing the High-Frequency Extension from 80Hz to 225HzI haven't had much time to listen to the new profiles since uploading, but the two songs I listened to did sound much fuller.
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post #2025 of 2085 Old 07-01-2020, 12:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erod View Post
Something kind of cool with my most recent ARC genesis calibration.

I used a miniDSP to align my subs and apply an REW curve. I applied in the miniDSP a 48 octave drop-off at 18 Hz when building my curve.

After running ARC, it gave me a 7th order slope with a 18 Hz roll-off point and a with a 15 Hz low extension.

Without the miniDSP, I typically get a 4th, 3rd, or 2nd order slope with a 24 Hz rolloff and a 20 Hz low extension.

Great to see that the miniDSP curve truly does impact the subs in a measurable way with ARC.
Of course it does. However try and run ARC first and EQ with REW after, that way you get much more predictable end results that stick, unlike crossing fingers with ARC.

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Originally Posted by pn56Matt View Post
Here are the results. I changed the default crossover in Bass Management from 120Hz to 100Hz. LCR are all crossed over at 80Hz.

I attached extra pictures because I was unclear if you wanted the "mains" as L and R or L+R. I also included the C in one as well as a combined C+subs and L+R with subs. All others are without subs.

The major change I made was changing the High-Frequency Extension from 80Hz to 225HzI haven't had much time to listen to the new profiles since uploading, but the two songs I listened to did sound much fuller.
OK.

Thanks what we want to see here is the two mains and subs all in one go one measurement at a time.

High frequency extension: You can go as high as you want to but push it to 250hz as that is the full range of the LFE channel nothing will play beyond that as it will roll off at the crossover point anyway. That's how it works.

Low frequency extension slope: DO change it to at least 4th order which is 24 octave/db as if you leave it flat you are asking your subs to play anything at any level without rolling off hence risking driver damage, its important. Plus all you get is distortion anyway below the capabilities of the driver.

You don't want the crossover any higher than 100hz as it will start becoming noticeable in terms of localization. You will be able to begin localizing the subs which you don't want.

The way it seems you have huge dips at 85,102 and 125 hz.

After you have done all your correction, uploads and EQ, go into the receivers distance settings, set it to 0 and start measuring. Measure with the two mains and two subs on at 0 distance, note the results especially the dips then go up one notch in the distance then re-measure and note the changes in the dips, keep going until the dips keep getting better and stop where they start getting worse again go back one notch that is the best spot for your perfect time alignment with your mains. I would also set the x over to 80 hz as it seems the 85hz dip might be in your subs. It would be also interesting to see phase on the graphs wit your subs measured only.

Now as to your subs we don't know if they are aligned perfectly but lets see the mains first. (it should be the other way around though).

I hope this helps.

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post #2027 of 2085 Old 07-01-2020, 02:40 AM
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Oh no reason to be embarrassed there's a lot going on with some things in Genesis and others in the Anthem itself. The High Frequency Extension is the highest frequency the sub will play. You should leave it to whatever Genesis sets it at. As you know the Low Frequency Extension is the lowest frequency the sub will play. So if your HFE is 250Hz and your LFE is 15Hz then your sub will play frequencies sent to it between 15-250Hz so your sub has a high and low limit to what it will play..

The subwoofer crossover is actually in the Anthem on the Bass Management screen and mine was set by Genesis at 120Hz. I'd set the sub to flat and let it play as low as it is capable of. The sub has an internal limiter so you won't damage the sub.
Sorry but this is not true, maybe there were a misunderstanding in my previous post. Even if you set HFE to 250Hz the subwoofer WILL NOT play so high. Or better, the subwoofer itself could be able to but it won't because:

1) the .1 channel (LFE) is bandwidth limited to 120Hz. Always, right in the content, as it's up to Dolby specifications. Furthermore DTS specifications even limit it to 80Hz as far as I know.
The most of LFE channel is in the 20-80Hz range, little information in the 80-120Hz range, nothing above.

2) on the receiver there's a filter called "LPF for LFE" usually set to 120Hz and this is the higher frequency the subwoofer can play, even if you let Genesis EQ up to 250Hz (according to HFE).

3) nobody would like to have a subwoofer playing above 120Hz as it would become very localizable. Low frequencies become directional starting from around 80Hz...


All of this is not "my opinion", is the way the things are. A subwoofer tipically plays till 120Hz unless you have very small speakers requiring a crossover (crossover is a different thing and inherent to bass management: redirected bass from speakers to subwoofer) higher than 120Hz but usually we all have crossovers set to 80-100Hz.


What I explained above moved myself to ask the reason behind such a high HFE value set by Genesis, the reason why Genesis prefers EQ up to 250Hz even if the subwoofer will never play such higher frequencies.

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Sorry but this is not true, maybe there were a misunderstanding in my previous post. Even if you set HFE to 250Hz the subwoofer WILL NOT play so high. Or better, the subwoofer itself could be able to but it won't because:

1) the .1 channel (LFE) is bandwidth limited to 120Hz. Always, right in the content, as it's up to Dolby specifications. Furthermore DTS specifications even limit it to 80Hz as far as I know.
The most of LFE channel is in the 20-80Hz range, little information in the 80-120Hz range, nothing above.

2) on the receiver there's a filter called "LPF for LFE" usually set to 120Hz and this is the higher frequency the subwoofer can play, even if you let Genesis EQ up to 250Hz (according to HFE).

3) nobody would like to have a subwoofer playing above 120Hz as it would become very localizable. Low frequencies become directional starting from around 80Hz...


All of this is not "my opinion", is the way the things are. A subwoofer tipically plays till 120Hz unless you have very small speakers requiring a crossover (crossover is a different thing and inherent to bass management: redirected bass from speakers to subwoofer) higher than 120Hz but usually we all have crossovers set to 80-100Hz.


What I explained above moved myself to ask the reason behind such a high HFE value set by Genesis, the reason why Genesis prefers EQ up to 250Hz even if the subwoofer will never play such higher frequencies.
Its a half truth mate, there is content between 0-250hz in the LFE channel, you can by any means set it to 250hz no narm done its very rare but the LFE specs allow for up to 250 hz but it will be down played by the crossover anyway. THX recommends the crossover to be 80hz yes and generally that is the best setting but 100hz is fine and if the subs are up front next to the mains localization won't be an issue. Xover settings need to be best determined case by case depending on the environment.

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post #2029 of 2085 Old 07-01-2020, 04:03 AM
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Its a half truth mate, there is content between 0-250hz in the LFE channel, you can by any means set it to 250hz no narm done its very rare but the LFE specs allow for up to 250 hz but it will be down played by the crossover anyway. THX recommends the crossover to be 80hz yes and generally that is the best setting but 100hz is fine and if the subs are up front next to the mains localization won't be an issue. Xover settings need to be best determined case by case depending on the environment.

Could you link an official source where I can find LFE specs up to 250Hz?

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Could you link an official source where I can find LFE specs up to 250Hz?
No need get hung up on this. LPF-LFE is up tp 250hz as per in the AVR, is there content? Probably not or rarely, is there any harm leaving it that high? Nah. Wil lyou limit yourself if you set it to lower than 120hz? Yes.

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No need get hung up on this. LPF-LFE is up tp 250hz as per in the AVR, is there content? Probably not or rarely, is there any harm leaving it that high? Nah. Wil lyou limit yourself if you set it to lower than 120hz? Yes.
LPF-LFE in the AVR up to 250Hz does mean nothing in my opinion, just a choice. In many years I have never read about LFE channel going over 120Hz but maybe I have missed something, that was the reason why I asked for a link. If you can provide I would be more than happy to learn something new.
Of course you could face some limits if you set it lower than 120Hz and I would never do it. But I would not even leave HFE at 250Hz because ARC filters are limited in number and I prefer those filters work to flatten out the range 10-120Hz the best they can instead of having them flatten out an extended range (120-250Hz) that will be never used.

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LPF-LFE in the AVR up to 250Hz does mean nothing in my opinion, just a choice. In many years I have never read about LFE channel going over 120Hz but maybe I have missed something, that was the reason why I asked for a link. If you can provide I would be more than happy to learn something new.
Of course you could face some limits if you set it lower than 120Hz and I would never do it. But I would not even leave HFE at 250Hz because ARC filters are limited in number and I prefer those filters work to flatten out the range 10-120Hz the best they can instead of having them flatten out an extended range (120-250Hz) that will be never used.
As I said no need to get hung up on this as it's meaningless in practice. There must be a reason why all manufacturers allow for 250hz but we in reality never use it. That's it since does not add anything constructive to the conversation lets leave it at that.

In case of ARC yes 120 could work due to filter limitations but I would still leave it at 250 or wherever ARC puts it to as those filter limitation only really play a part when for example EQ-ing a full range speaker from 0-20Khz according to Anthem, that is why they by default EQ up to 5Khz as after that it starts thinning out.

You approach things the right way otherwise, you seem to know what you are talking about.

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...those filter limitation only really play a part when for example EQ-ing a full range speaker from 0-20Khz according to Anthem, that is why they by default EQ up to 5Khz as after that it starts thinning out.
Yes, you are right, for the most part those limitations come up when you push EQ beyond 5KHz, that's the reason why I like to limit EQ up to 1KHz, this way lower frequencies benifit even more (and it's not the only reason behind this choice). But I found out that, for the same reason, subwoofer graph from Genesis improves even further in the range 10-120Hz if you lower HFE (assuming that LPF-LFE will still be set to 120Hz), as more resources will be focused to flatten out that range. Give it a try.

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Of course it does. However try and run ARC first and EQ with REW after, that way you get much more predictable end results that stick, unlike crossing fingers with ARC.
I only use ARC up to 250 Hz.

I EQ with the miniDSP first with the crossovers up at 250 and ARC off, then I run ARC, then I level my speakers with an SPL, than I check the response with REW to make sure everything is in line. Also like to slightly lift the tilt on the low end and drop it just a bit on the high end with ARC.

The miniDSP is fantastic, though it can be a frustrating endeavor as you learn it.

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Oh no reason to be embarrassed there's a lot going on with some things in Genesis and others in the Anthem itself. The High Frequency Extension is the highest frequency the sub will play. You should leave it to whatever Genesis sets it at. As you know the Low Frequency Extension is the lowest frequency the sub will play. So if your HFE is 250Hz and your LFE is 15Hz then your sub will play frequencies sent to it between 15-250Hz so your sub has a high and low limit to what it will play..

The subwoofer crossover is actually in the Anthem on the Bass Management screen and mine was set by Genesis at 120Hz. I'd set the sub to flat and let it play as low as it is capable of. The sub has an internal limiter so you won't damage the sub.
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Sorry but this is not true, maybe there were a misunderstanding in my previous post. Even if you set HFE to 250Hz the subwoofer WILL NOT play so high. Or better, the subwoofer itself could be able to but it won't because:

1) the .1 channel (LFE) is bandwidth limited to 120Hz. Always, right in the content, as it's up to Dolby specifications. Furthermore DTS specifications even limit it to 80Hz as far as I know.
The most of LFE channel is in the 20-80Hz range, little information in the 80-120Hz range, nothing above.

2) on the receiver there's a filter called "LPF for LFE" usually set to 120Hz and this is the higher frequency the subwoofer can play, even if you let Genesis EQ up to 250Hz (according to HFE).

3) nobody would like to have a subwoofer playing above 120Hz as it would become very localizable. Low frequencies become directional starting from around 80Hz...

All of this is not "my opinion", is the way the things are. A subwoofer tipically plays till 120Hz unless you have very small speakers requiring a crossover (crossover is a different thing and inherent to bass management: redirected bass from speakers to subwoofer) higher than 120Hz but usually we all have crossovers set to 80-100Hz.

What I explained above moved myself to ask the reason behind such a high HFE value set by Genesis, the reason why Genesis prefers EQ up to 250Hz even if the subwoofer will never play such higher frequencies.
Wow I wake up this morning to find that you've jumped all over me for stating exactly what Anthem says the purpose of the HFE is, as well as what other AVR manufacturers says the purpose is.

Anthem clearly states in the the Genesis help/documentation page the following:

Quote:
https://www.anthemarc.com/arc-genesi...st-targets.php
High-Frequency Extension
High-Frequency Extension sets the upper limit to which the subwoofer plays. It is advised to set this to match the natural roll off measured by ARC. Do not confuse this with the subwoofer crossover frequency established in the speaker panels. This control only affects the upper limit to which the subwoofer plays and is essential when a sub is reproducing an LFE (0.1) track. LFE Tracks often contain information at higher frequencies. When bass management is set to redirect low bass from other channels in the system to the subwoofer, the processor sends this information (up to the crossover point set for the other speakers) in addition to the LFE track so that your subwoofer plays both.
I didn't just make this up. Whether you agree or disagree you need to take that up with Anthem and other manufacturers. Instead you quoted me and bolded my words to imply I've come up with this on my own. Anthem says there is content in the .1 up to 250Hz. These aren't my words they are theirs and I've quoted Anthem on this 3 times now. I can't help it that you disagree, but you asked for my help by name in your original post so I was helping. I can appreciate you passion for the topic and this hobby but I would kindly ask that you please direct you disapproval at Anthem instead of me.

You and Matt both had questions about the purpose of the HFE, so I was trying to help by explaining Anthem's purpose for it and how it works in Genesis. I can't help it if you don't like how or why Anthem implemented the feature.

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post #2036 of 2085 Old 07-01-2020, 08:27 AM
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I only use ARC up to 250 Hz.

I EQ with the miniDSP first with the crossovers up at 250 and ARC off, then I run ARC, then I level my speakers with an SPL, than I check the response with REW to make sure everything is in line. Also like to slightly lift the tilt on the low end and drop it just a bit on the high end with ARC.

The miniDSP is fantastic, though it can be a frustrating endeavor as you learn it.
You are using a 250hz crossover?? Why?
MiniDSP is a god send and for me it was the easiest thing to learn and it gives me the exact results I want and even when the auto EQ does not produce the precise results I want I can easily manually adjust it. This cannot be done with ARC and this is why I run things now in the reverse order.

Ohh I get ya 250hz only during sub setup.

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I have the Beta, but it wasn’t showing up as the v.1.2.3. Just clicked on th link you provided, and it does now. Strange. Thanks.

Do I need to remeasure, or can I use sweeps I currently have? I’m assuming I can.
See the Release Notes text file included in the stuff you just downloaded. There's one fix in this new Beta for a specific Anthem product. If you don't have that product, there should be no change and no need to re-Measure. If you DO have that product you will need to re-Measure to take advantage of the fix.
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Wow I wake up this morning to find that you've jumped all over me for stating exactly what Anthem says the purpose of the HFE is, as well as what other AVR manufacturers says the purpose is.

Anthem clearly states in the the Genesis help/documentation page the following:

I didn't just make this up. Whether you agree or disagree you need to take that up with Anthem and other manufacturers. Instead you quoted me and bolded my words to imply I've come up with this on my own. Anthem says there is content in the .1 up to 250Hz. These aren't my words they are theirs and I've quoted Anthem on this 3 times now. I can't help it that you disagree, but you asked for my help by name in your original post so I was helping. I can appreciate you passion for the topic and this hobby but I would kindly ask that you please direct you disapproval at Anthem instead of me.

You and Matt both had questions about the purpose of the HFE, so I was trying to help by explaining Anthem's purpose for it and how it works in Genesis. I can't help it if you don't like how or why Anthem implemented the feature.

Hi Legairre, it was not my intention to “jump all over you”. I understood now you were just reporting what Anthem says and, frankly speaking, it’s not so clear, however it doesn’t specifies LFE channel is actually up to 250Hz. As far as I know, there’s nothing above 120Hz in the LFE.

Bob, what’s your opinion about it? If we assume, basing on DD specs, LFE is up to 120hz which is the reason behind the choice of Genesis to set higher values for the HFE? I remember your post where you told to consider HFE in the subwoofer panel just like “its max EQ”. So my question is: why EQing up to 250Hz (just for instance, it could be 180Hz or 220Hz according to what the subwoofer is capable of) if LFE is bandwidth limited to 120Hz?

I hope all of you understand what I mean, english is not my native language...

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The LFE content on a surround mix is supposed to contain no content above 120hz. But the redirected bass from the bed channels CAN contain content above 120hz. Remember, the crossover is a slope so there is still content above 120hz going to the subwoofer channel from bass managed speakers.....especially if any speakers are crossed over at 100hz or higher, as some surround or overhead speakers sometimes are.


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I only use ARC up to 250 Hz.

I EQ with the miniDSP first with the crossovers up at 250 and ARC off, then I run ARC, then I level my speakers with an SPL, than I check the response with REW to make sure everything is in line. Also like to slightly lift the tilt on the low end and drop it just a bit on the high end with ARC.

The miniDSP is fantastic, though it can be a frustrating endeavor as you learn it.
You are using a 250hz crossover?? Why?
MiniDSP is a god send and for me it was the easiest thing to learn and it gives me the exact results I want and even when the auto EQ does not produce the precise results I want I can easily manually adjust it. This cannot be done with ARC and this is why I run things now in the reverse order.

Ohh I get ya 250hz only during sub setup.
My apologies. Gosh, I need to slow down when I type. I use a 250 Hz max frequency for ARC, I meant to say.

Yes, I use a 250 Hz crossover only during sub EQ with the miniDSP.

The miniDSP is easy to use, but at first it can be hard to get everything connected. I had to delete and reload the driver a couple of times to get it to connect. After that, pretty easy.

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