Dedicated ARC Genesis thread - Page 9 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #241 of 685 Old 06-21-2019, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by mitchlampert View Post
Thank you everyone who helped guide me. I think I nailed the REW curve at 30' for sub distance and 16 is my mains. Now there's no lower output with my minidsp which is also working like a charm!! I could have never gotten here without all your kind help. Thanks!!

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attac...582788&thumb=1
Graph looks excellent. Time to grab a beer and a seat and enjoy!

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post #242 of 685 Old 06-21-2019, 03:16 PM
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It’s fairly easy to time align with REW. You select acoustic measure and use a channel as a reference like the center. When you measure you’ll hear a high pitch chirp on the reference ch then a sweep. You’ll see the distance. The distance is an offset relative to the ref channel. Then you can move your speaker or change the distance in the menu. It even works on the sub but you may have to turn up the volume to like -20 to get an accurate sub measure. You should be able to get it +\- 3 inches or so unless you have hard mounted speakers.
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post #243 of 685 Old 06-21-2019, 06:41 PM - Thread Starter
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PEQ in SVS

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Originally Posted by Jon SS View Post
Thanks for your input. That's a big boost +6db and +3db. I had increased my sub +2db as well as the PEQ adjustments as was not sure how high to go without effecting overall sound. Will definitely try an increase as see how that sounds.

My understanding of PEQ when I looked at the graphs and curve in the SVS app it raises +3db at the centre (30hz and 63hz) and lowers down to 0db slowly each side of the centre, vs Deep Bass Boost which starts at +0db at 40Hz and increases to your +4db as the frequency decreases?

All these options are amazing but so confusing.

Thanks
I'm sure you understand that the PEQs you are citing are just the presets. You can set the PEQ from20-200hz, the boost from -12 to 6, and the Q factor from .2-10.
The Q tells you how steep the slope is going to be on each side of the center frequency.
Your understanding of the Deep Bass Boost is the same as mine.
There is no substitute for trying the different settings with a familiar few minutes of recording to settle on what best suits you.
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post #244 of 685 Old 06-22-2019, 05:46 AM
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Dedicated ARC Genesis thread

[quote=anilpani;58211698]
Quote:
Originally Posted by WLC View Post



This still does not address the primary issue, which is why Genesis sets the speaker levels so much higher than ARC2. I don't think the reference target of 75dB changed, so if your system has not changed the power required to achieve that volume should be similar.



Using a Radio Shack SPL meter and the Disney WOW disc, I find that my system's F&R speakers achieve 75dB at a volume setting of -20 on the AVM without Genesis (and channel levels set to 0). When sending test signals via Genesis, however, the same speakers can only achieve 61dB. So there is clearly something different that Genesis is doing to attenuate the signals and then require boosts after calibration.


I have the issue with my five main speakers set to to +12 & Atmos at +11/+10. I’ve rerun the new beta with same results. The genesis sounds way better then ARC 2 either way.

I spoke with Anthem who said there is a bug which effects certain operating system / processor combos and to send them the ARC file. They said they would be working on it and are aware of the issue.

Hopefully they release a fix soon to resolve the issue.



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Last edited by Newbie789; 06-22-2019 at 06:49 AM.
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post #245 of 685 Old 06-22-2019, 06:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Anthem Support and 12+

[quote=Newbie789;58214250]
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Originally Posted by anilpani View Post



I have the issue with my five main speakers set to to +12 & Atmos at +11/+10. I’ve rerun the new beta with same results.

I spoke with Anthem who said there is a bug which effects certain operating system / processor combos and to send them the ARC file. They said they would be working on it and are aware of the issue.

Hopefully they release a fix soon to resolve the issue.

I had numerous communications with Anthem support and sent them several ARC files, the original and then the first beta. The only change from the original to the beta is that the original actually gave you the necessary calibrations including those over 12. The beta just eliminated that information, but did not fix the underlying issue. I will be thrilled if they actually address this problem after you send them your ARC file, but I'm afraid I don't believe them.
But I'm not interested in bad-mouthing Anthem at this point. They have provided us with a terrific calibration system. I assume they want to keep using it as simple as possible for the most users. I also assume that those of us on this forum are more sophisticated than their average user. Perhaps that is not correct, but it seems that it probably is. I'm not really sure if having the calibrations off by a couple of dbs matters that much to most users. Since I've been manually calibrating my surround system for many years, it is not that big a deal to check the levels and then adjust the trim levels accordingly. Of course, this doesn't allow me to tweak each speaker since the trim levels are adjusted in pairs.
I could alternatively lower all of the calibrations by the necessary amount so that the peak for all of them is 12+. But I now play my AVM60 at between -15 and -12 depending on the material. I can't justify my feelings, but I'm not really interested in having to set the volume higher, which is what would result if I lower all of the calibrations by 3 db, which is what my system would require.
Any other opinions?



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post #246 of 685 Old 06-22-2019, 08:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Changed mind about how to deal with 12+

Re-reading my former post, I decided I was being foolish. (Unfortunately, not an unusual feeling for me)
Since my 12+ speakers actually needed 13, 14 and 15, I have lowered all of the speakers by 3 db. I didn't lower the sub because I had previously added 3 db to each sub and therefore just subtracted 3 db from each of them.
Testing my usual surround material, this does provide an improvement and allows me to be more precise rather than having 1 db error between the left and right back and surrounds.
To get the precise requirements from Genesis will require users to re-run the original version and read the numbers from the PDF file. Alternatively, just use a sound meter and use this information to re-calibrate. The readout from a sound meter and the original PDF file matched perfectly.
Anybody else with 12+ interested in trying this approach?
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post #247 of 685 Old 06-22-2019, 09:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Further conversations with myself

I strongly urge everyone with 12+ calibration settings to try the adjustment method I discussed in my previous post. My wife and I have just watched episode 10 of the most recent season of Jessica Jones and we were both astonished at the improvement in the surround effects. Previously, we were mostly impressed with the improvement in the bass from ARC2. The surround integration remained good, but didn't notice a large difference. With the relatively modest adjustment I outlined in my previous post, the surround effect is dramatically improved. I really have no idea why this would be. The improvement is such that the dialogue on our 120" screen now moves around with the speaker.
It appears that Genesis full potential is not realized until the 12+ calibration issue is resolved.
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post #248 of 685 Old 06-22-2019, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WLC View Post
I strongly urge everyone with 12+ calibration settings to try the adjustment method I discussed in my previous post. My wife and I have just watched episode 10 of the most recent season of Jessica Jones and we were both astonished at the improvement in the surround effects. Previously, we were mostly impressed with the improvement in the bass from ARC2. The surround integration remained good, but didn't notice a large difference. With the relatively modest adjustment I outlined in my previous post, the surround effect is dramatically improved. I really have no idea why this would be. The improvement is such that the dialogue on our 120" screen now moves around with the speaker.
It appears that Genesis full potential is not realized until the 12+ calibration issue is resolved.
Just use an SPL meter and adjust each speaker to 65 dB and the sub to 68 dB (or wherever you want it). Then adjust the volume to your listening level. Done.

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post #249 of 685 Old 06-22-2019, 10:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Correcting Poor Advice

Quote:
Originally Posted by anilpani View Post
Can anyone explain this to me?

When running ARC Genesis, I was forced to turn my subwoofers down significantly in order to complete the measurement process. Using the quick measure function, I found that I could only proceed if the total subwoofer output was less than 70dB.

Now after completing the calculations, however, my subwoofer level is set to +6dB!

How does that make any sense?

Also, all of my channel levels are quite high with the front left set at +12dB. This is several dB higher than ARC2 and overall seems strange.

Thanks in advance for the input.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newbie789 View Post
How did yall resolve the issue with +12 dB speaker levels? Anthem tech said the new beta would fix it...I ran the measurements again and it came back with the same +12 for the main speakers.

Thanks


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Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchlampert View Post
Thanks, I understand your entire statement except this. Where would I find the level trim?
[quote=anilpani;58211698]
Quote:
Originally Posted by WLC View Post

This still does not address the primary issue, which is why Genesis sets the speaker levels so much higher than ARC2. I don't think the reference target of 75dB changed, so if your system has not changed the power required to achieve that volume should be similar.

Using a Radio Shack SPL meter and the Disney WOW disc, I find that my system's F&R speakers achieve 75dB at a volume setting of -20 on the AVM without Genesis (and channel levels set to 0). When sending test signals via Genesis, however, the same speakers can only achieve 61dB. So there is clearly something different that Genesis is doing to attenuate the signals and then require boosts after calibration.
[quote=Newbie789;58214250]
Quote:
Originally Posted by anilpani View Post



I have the issue with my five main speakers set to to +12 & Atmos at +11/+10. I’ve rerun the new beta with same results. The genesis sounds way better then ARC 2 either way.

I spoke with Anthem who said there is a bug which effects certain operating system / processor combos and to send them the ARC file. They said they would be working on it and are aware of the issue.

Hopefully they release a fix soon to resolve the issue.



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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erod View Post
Just use an SPL meter and adjust each speaker to 65 dB and the sub to 68 dB (or wherever you want it). Then adjust the volume to your listening level. Done.
I am trying to notify each person I gave advice to about 12+ settings. I now know that adjusting the calibration levels as I outlined a couple of posts before is actually a vastly superior technique and fully unlocks the potential of Genesis.
I have included Erod's post because he has suggested an alternative simple approach to the problem. I am sure that either his or my solution will provide significantly better results than using the level trim for this problem.
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post #250 of 685 Old 06-22-2019, 11:48 AM
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[quote=WLC;58215116][quote=anilpani;58211698]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Newbie789 View Post







I am trying to notify each person I gave advice to about 12+ settings. I now know that adjusting the calibration levels as I outlined a couple of posts before is actually a vastly superior technique and fully unlocks the potential of Genesis.

I have included Erod's post because he has suggested an alternative simple approach to the problem. I am sure that either his or my solution will provide significantly better results than using the level trim for this problem.


Thanks! I missed this above
Going back to the pdf of my first run with the stable release had the actual speaker levels displayed. I ended up subtracting 8 across the board and modifying the stable release arc file. Worked like a charm.

But how do I set the proper speaker distances? The arc upload overwrote all the distances I had to 12ft. Any specific way to get the distances other than actually measuring them?


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post #251 of 685 Old 06-22-2019, 12:36 PM - Thread Starter
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SPL Meter and Room Gain

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Originally Posted by Erod View Post
Just use an SPL meter and adjust each speaker to 65 dB and the sub to 68 dB (or wherever you want it). Then adjust the volume to your listening level. Done.
On further reflection, the only problem I see with this method is that it doesn't take room gain into account. The processor takes the sub calibration level listed in the pdf and adds room gain for the final sub calibration level. Just using an SPL meter without taking the room gain into effect seems less precise, although easier and more elegant.
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post #252 of 685 Old 06-22-2019, 12:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Genesis and speaker distances

[QUOTE=Newbie789;58215324][quote=WLC;58215116][quote=anilpani;58211698]

Thanks! I missed this above
Going back to the pdf of my first run with the stable release had the actual speaker levels displayed. I ended up subtracting 8 across the board and modifying the stable release arc file. Worked like a charm.

But how do I set the proper speaker distances? The arc upload overwrote all the distances I had to 12ft. Any specific way to get the distances other than actually measuring them?

I don't believe Genesis sets speaker distances. However, in what appears to be a glitch, it did re-set profiles 2,3 and 4 to 12 ft each for every speaker. It did leave my distances alone in profile 1. I think there is a method for figuring distance using REW. I just measure the distances using a digital measure. Of course, I had to go into profiles 2, 3 and 4 to re-enter the proper distances. What a pain.
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post #253 of 685 Old 06-22-2019, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WLC View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erod View Post
Just use an SPL meter and adjust each speaker to 65 dB and the sub to 68 dB (or wherever you want it). Then adjust the volume to your listening level. Done.
On further reflection, the only problem I see with this method is that it doesn't take room gain into account. The processor takes the sub calibration level listed in the pdf and adds room gain for the final sub calibration level. Just using an SPL meter without taking the room gain into effect seems less precise, although easier and more elegant.
Sure it does of you run Genesis first. Then adjust levels. It's the best you can do if you're getting 12+ levels initially.

I get +10 in my rear surrounds, and around +1 to +4 in the other nine speakers and -1 in my sub.

Fortunately, I don't have to worry about this.

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post #254 of 685 Old 06-23-2019, 04:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Test tones and Genesis

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Originally Posted by Erod View Post
Sure it does of you run Genesis first. Then adjust levels. It's the best you can do if you're getting 12+ levels initially.

I get +10 in my rear surrounds, and around +1 to +4 in the other nine speakers and -1 in my sub.

Fortunately, I don't have to worry about this.
My question is whether the test tone sent by Anthem is pre or post Genesis. I don't know that the test tone includes the adjustments made by Genesis. If it does, your method includes room gain.
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post #255 of 685 Old 06-23-2019, 05:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WLC View Post
My question is whether the test tone sent by Anthem is pre or post Genesis. I don't know that the test tone includes the adjustments made by Genesis. If it does, your method includes room gain.
I'm not 100% certain if the test tone does/does not include Genesis adjustments. I would suspect it does not as I assume the test tone is there for manual calibration of speaker levels.
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post #256 of 685 Old 06-23-2019, 05:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Test Tones

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Originally Posted by madrac View Post
I'm not 100% certain if the test tone does/does not include Genesis adjustments. I would suspect it does not as I assume the test tone is there for manual calibration of speaker levels.
I would also think it does not. And, despite what I said earlier, I don't really see how you would include room gain using these test tones. What you could do using Erod's simple solution is to calibrate all of the speakers to a certain level and then add the room gain to the subs. Erod's assumption of running the subs hot is correct for me, but I still prefer to start with room gain included. In an earlier post, I had included a REW graph of my subs with ARC2 and Genesis. They were identical except for the additional 3 dbs in the Genesis graph. I know that REW includes the post Genesis information because you have the option in the input setup of including which profile you wish to use. I also don't understand how the acoustic effects are so dramatically different when the graphs are identical.
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post #257 of 685 Old 06-23-2019, 06:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WLC View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erod View Post
Sure it does of you run Genesis first. Then adjust levels. It's the best you can do if you're getting 12+ levels initially.

I get +10 in my rear surrounds, and around +1 to +4 in the other nine speakers and -1 in my sub.

Fortunately, I don't have to worry about this.
My question is whether the test tone sent by Anthem is pre or post Genesis. I don't know that the test tone includes the adjustments made by Genesis. If it does, your method includes room gain.
The test tones will include the levels set by Genesis based on gain. First, check the dB level differences between your sub and the channels before adjusting anything.

The problem is, you don't know if your 12+ dB would have been 13, 14, 15, or 25. It's nebulous.

Can you change the system base to 65dB before running Genesis? I notice there's a setting for that, but not sure what it does.

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post #258 of 685 Old 06-23-2019, 07:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Run original genesis version

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erod View Post
The test tones will include the levels set by Genesis based on gain. First, check the dB level differences between your sub and the channels before adjusting anything.

The problem is, you don't know if your 12+ dB would have been 13, 14, 15, or 25. It's nebulous.

Can you change the system base to 65dB before running Genesis? I notice there's a setting for that, but not sure what it does.
I haven't tried changing the system base before running Genesis. However, if you run the original version of Genesis, the pdf will include the recommended levels of all speakers. In my case, 13, 14 and 15. That is why I could so precisely adjust my calibration levels by reducing every speaker by 3. Worked beautifully.
I appreciate your contribution to this issue considering that you personally don't have the problem. But we are both alerting anyone with 12+ results to the need to use some system for correcting this short-coming in Genesis. I suspect that this problem actually existed in ARC2 but that without the PDF I wasn't alerted to it.
I am particularly disappointed that with the first beta Anthem limited the information available to the user. With this information, it is easy to address the problem.

What might have obscured my awareness of this problem with ARC2, if it existed, is that I always raise my surrounds and backs by 4+ because I have a large room 5,000^ that is open behind the back speakers. It is in those speakers that the 12+ problem exists.

Last edited by WLC; 06-23-2019 at 07:37 AM. Reason: Further reflection
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post #259 of 685 Old 06-23-2019, 09:22 AM
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If all the levels that Genesis sets are high, but below 12, mine are 8-11, is there any plus or minus to lowering them all by 6 or 8 dB? Clearly after Genesis the comfortable volume setting is lower that before Genesis, but that is not a big deal. It is it possible that this redistribution of levels in the processing is why it now sounds "better" or more dynamic?

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post #260 of 685 Old 06-23-2019, 02:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Levels

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Originally Posted by shs1234 View Post
If all the levels that Genesis sets are high, but below 12, mine are 8-11, is there any plus or minus to lowering them all by 6 or 8 dB? Clearly after Genesis the comfortable volume setting is lower that before Genesis, but that is not a big deal. It is it possible that this redistribution of levels in the processing is why it now sounds "better" or more dynamic?

I don't think so. I think the magic is in the EQ. It won't hurt anything, just don't think it will help either.

From Anthem support:

"The EQ is not effected by level changes."
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post #261 of 685 Old 06-23-2019, 09:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WLC View Post
Who am I to disagree with Anthem? After that disclaimer, I strongly feel that the bass boost is preferable, at least in my system, to room gain. I boost the maximum below 40 hz. This change enhances the already beautifully textured bass without effecting dialogue. With ARC2, I would add volume to my 4 subs to get the effect we prefer. After Genesis, the Bass Boost is all we need for the bass adjustment and the effect is much cleaner.
I'm using an STR Preamp for a 2.2 system. It has a sub level control, which I typically keep at +0.5 to +1.0 dB. The other processors don't have that?

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post #262 of 685 Old 06-23-2019, 11:17 PM
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What's missing

I have been loving my STR Preamp and ARC Genesis, with one exception. In my audio-only system, certain instruments (violins, pianos) when recorded too close could benefit from a little dip around 2500-3000 Hz to reduce listening fatigue. That is not among the adjustments available in Genesis.

I would love to see either the ability in Genesis to add some PEQ points OR a midrange control added to the preamp. The latter (with adjustable center frequency and Q) would be ideal, as it could be turned on and off or adjusted independently of profiles (which are limited to 4). It would complement the bass, treble, and sub level controls beautifully.

Does anyone else see the need for this? I have to admit, with most recordings I do not even need it, but when I do, it really helps.

Also, sometimes I wonder if the mic calibration should be rechecked. Has anyone had that done? How?

P.S. Not knowing of this thread, I had started another one on ARC, but I've made a final post there directing people here.

Mike (Portland, Oregon -- no longer in North Carolina)

Main 2.2 system: Synology NAS, Auralic Aries G1 streamer, Anthem STR (DAC-)Preamp, Bryston 4B3 amp, Janszen Valentina mains, 2x JL Audio F112 subs. Desktop 2.1 system: JRiver Media Center, Classe CP-800 DAC-preamp, Marsh A400s power amp, Harbeth P3ESR, B&W ASW610.
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post #263 of 685 Old 06-24-2019, 05:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Welcome

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Originally Posted by Mike in NC View Post
I'm using an STR Preamp for a 2.2 system. It has a sub level control, which I typically keep at +0.5 to +1.0 dB. The other processors don't have that?
I believe that is the same as the AVM60 level trim. If I'm correct, I prefer to adjust the volume in the subs themselves. However, I have used the level trim for a particular program that requires adjustment.

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Originally Posted by Mike in NC View Post
I have been loving my STR Preamp and ARC Genesis, with one exception. In my audio-only system, certain instruments (violins, pianos) when recorded too close could benefit from a little dip around 2500-3000 Hz to reduce listening fatigue. That is not among the adjustments available in Genesis.

I would love to see either the ability in Genesis to add some PEQ points OR a midrange control added to the preamp. The latter (with adjustable center frequency and Q) would be ideal, as it could be turned on and off or adjusted independently of profiles (which are limited to 4). It would complement the bass, treble, and sub level controls beautifully.

Does anyone else see the need for this? I have to admit, with most recordings I do not even need it, but when I do, it really helps.

Also, sometimes I wonder if the mic calibration should be rechecked. Has anyone had that done? How?

P.S. Not knowing of this thread, I had started another one on ARC, but I've made a final post there directing people here.
Welcome to this thread. I hope this is a significant step in more consolidation. I also have a stereo 2.2 system, but it has a minidsp with Dirac rather than Genesis. I have a house curve in it that has proven terrific for just what you are discussing. I have been able to approximate it with Genesis in my home theater with a combination of a Deep Bass Boost of +6 starting at 40 hz and a tilt of -8 starting at 500 hz. I cannot say as precisely as you are what the troublesome frequencies are, but this house curve eliminates the problem for us. Although both my stereo and home theater use Aerial Acoustic speakers, which are non-fatiguing, this house curve allows me to play either system louder without any fatigue. I can't say what the volume is in the stereo because my analogue pre-amp does not have a volume readout. The home theater is played between -12 and -9. This figure is somewhat misleading because I lowered calibration in all of my speakers by 3 db to correct a problem that I doubt you are having.
My subs include PEQ. Dirac is so good, there was no need to try the PEQ with my stereo. I tried many iterations of PEQ with my 4 subs in the home theater and was never happy. For me, the above settings are much better than I could achieve with ARC2 and PEQ. One more note about the Deep Bass Boost. I have all sealed subs. I'm not sure how the Deep Bass Boost works with ported subs. In the many discussions of house curves I read when setting up Dirac, I never saw a distinction made between ported and sealed subs.
Hope I have addressed the issues you have raised.
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post #264 of 685 Old 06-24-2019, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WLC View Post
I also have a stereo 2.2 system, but it has a minidsp with Dirac rather than Genesis. [...] I have been able to approximate it with Genesis in my home theater with a combination of a Deep Bass Boost of +6 starting at 40 hz and a tilt of -8 starting at 500 hz. [...] Although both my stereo and home theater use Aerial Acoustic speakers, which are non-fatiguing, this house curve allows me to play either system louder without any fatigue. [...] Hope I have addressed the issues you have raised.
Thanks for the reply, much appreciated. Aerials are among my favorite speakers. I nearly bought the 7T for the current system, but the Janszens worked better with the room's low ceiling.

I am a little envious of Dirac's ability to tailor the target-curve more. I was expecting that in Genesis, but instead we got more flexibility at the frequency extremes, but still none in the middle. I've sent Anthem a request to add a midrange control to the STR, but I'm not holding my breath.

The Auralic streamer I use has PEQ, so I've been able to experiment with adding a dip, which is how I came up with -1.75 dB at 2500 Hz. I'd prefer to DSP the signal only once, in the preamp, but to be honest, I don't detect a loss of sound quality doing it twice.

Regarding subs, I'm using sealed ones too, with their PEQ turned off. I also find that a little low-bass boost helps. (Either that or just raising the sub level via the preamp.) When the tilt (starting at 500 Hz) in my system is more than -4dB, it sounds too rolled off. I'll keep playing with it.

Mike (Portland, Oregon -- no longer in North Carolina)

Main 2.2 system: Synology NAS, Auralic Aries G1 streamer, Anthem STR (DAC-)Preamp, Bryston 4B3 amp, Janszen Valentina mains, 2x JL Audio F112 subs. Desktop 2.1 system: JRiver Media Center, Classe CP-800 DAC-preamp, Marsh A400s power amp, Harbeth P3ESR, B&W ASW610.
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post #265 of 685 Old 06-24-2019, 03:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Dirac vs Genesis for house curve

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Originally Posted by Mike in NC View Post
Thanks for the reply, much appreciated. Aerials are among my favorite speakers. I nearly bought the 7T for the current system, but the Janszens worked better with the room's low ceiling.

I am a little envious of Dirac's ability to tailor the target-curve more. I was expecting that in Genesis, but instead we got more flexibility at the frequency extremes, but still none in the middle. I've sent Anthem a request to add a midrange control to the STR, but I'm not holding my breath.

The Auralic streamer I use has PEQ, so I've been able to experiment with adding a dip, which is how I came up with -1.75 dB at 2500 Hz. I'd prefer to DSP the signal only once, in the preamp, but to be honest, I don't detect a loss of sound quality doing it twice.

Regarding subs, I'm using sealed ones too, with their PEQ turned off. I also find that a little low-bass boost helps. (Either that or just raising the sub level via the preamp.) When the tilt (starting at 500 Hz) in my system is more than -4dB, it sounds too rolled off. I'll keep playing with it.
Of course, every room is different. My stereo has good positioning for the mains, but poor for the subs. That's why I had to buy SVS PC4000s for the stereo. They are cylindrical and ported. I didn't want ported, but needed cylindrical because of space limitations. I have to say that sealing the subs has been entirely satisfactory, although I could have saved some money if I'd had space for sealed.
My house curve with Dirac is 22hz up 6db, lower to -4 by 200 and another -4 at 16k. The combination of Deep Bass boost and tilt that I outlined previously seems to do a very good job of imitating the Dirac house curve. The reason I prefer the Deep Bass Boost to just raising the sub level is the Deep Bass Boost leaves the male voices alone. With ARC2, I had the subs boosted 10db, but often had to use the trim level to lower the sub level. I have not had the same problem with the Deep Bass Boost.
I assume you know the folowing, but I'll include it anyway. It has to do with how much more powerful ported are to sealed.
Hz Ported is how much louder
40 1.5 3db
32 2 6db
25 3 9db
10-20 4 12db

So, with the Deep Bass Boost I'm just adding about 2/3's of the difference back to my sealed subs. I had Aerial subs for many years and they were excellent. It was only when one of them broke and I discovered that Aerial isn't making subs anymore that I went from ported to sealed. I never liked the room rattling that some users are so fond of. In addition, I chose to use them at a lower volume because of the unpleasant that occasionally occurred at low frequencies. With sealed, because they play so clean I can enjoy them louder.
Your stereo experience may be similar to mine. I've really only got a drop of -4 from 200hz to 16k. That seems like the same drop you prefer.
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post #266 of 685 Old 06-24-2019, 09:46 PM
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Thank goodness for this Genesis release! I discovered a couple system problems when I did the new Genesis calibration. I knew something was not right with my bass, but I've been to busy to dig into it, lol. Mostly I was starting to blame it on my sub "downgrade" I did a couple years ago. But I also messed up my MSO calibration a while back and that was something I thought could be contributing. That's a bear to do new measurements though, so I just never redid the MSO cal.

But it turns out my balanced miniDSP took a crap and half my subs were not even working anymore! When I looked at the Genesis sub curves I knew it was not how I remembered it, lol, and the bass was "slightly" anemic. In reality though it was "very" anemic, I had just got used to it!

Oh well, miniDSP HD on it's way, which is an upgrade I've been wanting to do ever since I ran MSO. Kind of excited now to do the measurements, run a fresh MSO calibration, get all my subs back on line, do a phase alignment with the mains, and then rerun the subs on my Genesis calibration(which is a very sweet feature of Genesis!).

I also somehow had two different input gain settings on the amps for my LR mains, resulting in a 6 dB difference on the prepro gains after calibration. WTF! Man, I've ignored things far too long!! But I took the opportunity while fixing that to optimize my gain structure by maximally reducing my amp input sensitivity down to like +23 dB, which is quite low. Prior to this I was reducing the output gains on the amps -8 dB to reduce CD hiss, which is NOT the best way to do it! I was able to move my prepro gains from -3 to +6 with my output gains at max with no audible hiss a 2 ft.. Nice!

Gonna be like a new system, haha!

Sorry for long, rather pointless, story. Maybe I'm the only derelict system owner on this thread?

Last edited by Gooddoc; 06-25-2019 at 05:28 AM.
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post #267 of 685 Old 06-25-2019, 06:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the long, point well-made story

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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
Thank goodness for this Genesis release! I discovered a couple system problems when I did the new Genesis calibration. I knew something was not right with my bass, but I've been to busy to dig into it, lol. Mostly I was starting to blame it on my sub "downgrade" I did a couple years ago. But I also messed up my MSO calibration a while back and that was something I thought could be contributing. That's a bear to do new measurements though, so I just never redid the MSO cal.

But it turns out my balanced miniDSP took a crap and half my subs were not even working anymore! When I looked at the Genesis sub curves I knew it was not how I remembered it, lol, and the bass was "slightly" anemic. In reality though it was "very" anemic, I had just got used to it!

Oh well, miniDSP HD on it's way, which is an upgrade I've been wanting to do ever since I ran MSO. Kind of excited now to do the measurements, run a fresh MSO calibration, get all my subs back on line, do a phase alignment with the mains, and then rerun the subs on my Genesis calibration(which is a very sweet feature of Genesis!).

I also somehow had two different input gain settings on the amps for my LR mains, resulting in a 6 dB difference on the prepro gains after calibration. WTF! Man, I've ignored things far too long!! But I took the opportunity while fixing that to optimize my gain structure by maximally reducing my amp input sensitivity down to like +23 dB, which is quite low. Prior to this I was reducing the output gains on the amps -8 dB to reduce CD hiss, which is NOT the best way to do it! I was able to move my prepro gains from -3 to +6 with my output gains at max with no audible hiss a 2 ft.. Nice!

Gonna be like a new system, haha!

Sorry for long, rather pointless, story. Maybe I'm the only derelict system owner on this thread?
I've had a 6 db difference between my front speakers for years and have assumed it was different acoustics in my room. After your posting, I forced myself to twist and bend to look at the back of the amplifier powering my 3 front speakers. There it was, different input gain for the front right speaker compared to the other two. I won't have time to re-run Genesis until this weekend, but assume the calibration level will now be identical for the two front speakers. Feel like an idiot. Doesn't seem like it's much of an excuse how hard it is to look at the back of my equipment rack. The truth is, this problem didn't even occur to me until you discovered it. Thanks.
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post #268 of 685 Old 06-25-2019, 06:55 AM
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Quote:
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I've had a 6 db difference between my front speakers for years and have assumed it was different acoustics in my room. After your posting, I forced myself to twist and bend to look at the back of the amplifier powering my 3 front speakers. There it was, different input gain for the front right speaker compared to the other two. I won't have time to re-run Genesis until this weekend, but assume the calibration level will now be identical for the two front speakers. Feel like an idiot. Doesn't seem like it's much of an excuse how hard it is to look at the back of my equipment rack. The truth is, this problem didn't even occur to me until you discovered it. Thanks.
You don't have to rerun Genesis since gain doesn't effect the calibration EQ. Just adjust gain in your prepro by 6 dB. If image centers between the mains, you're good! If not, use your amp gains for finer adjustment(if that's possible).

In my case my amp input/output gains can be software adjusted, and I was messing around trying to figure out how to reduce my input gains more and didn't realize I left the gains adjusted differently. Not too hard to do since they're buried in sub windows of the application.

I'm carefully going through everything now though to be sure I get everything right, particularly with the upcoming MSO calibration. Lots of little details there to worry about.
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post #269 of 685 Old 06-25-2019, 09:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Input gain adjustment

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You don't have to rerun Genesis since gain doesn't effect the calibration EQ. Just adjust gain in your prepro by 6 dB. If image centers between the mains, you're good! If not, use your amp gains for finer adjustment(if that's possible).

In my case my amp input/output gains can be software adjusted, and I was messing around trying to figure out how to reduce my input gains more and didn't realize I left the gains adjusted differently. Not too hard to do since they're buried in sub windows of the application.

I'm carefully going through everything now though to be sure I get everything right, particularly with the upcoming MSO calibration. Lots of little details there to worry about.
Thanks for suggestion. When I get the chance, will use my trusty sound meter to make the adjustment. With my 300 watt Bryston amp going into Aerial Acoustic 10ts, do you have any idea whether the change from 1volt to 2 in the input gain setting should equal 6 db? I'll be checking anyway, just curious if someone knows the theoretical answer.
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post #270 of 685 Old 06-25-2019, 09:43 AM
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Quote:
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Thanks for suggestion. When I get the chance, will use my trusty sound meter to make the adjustment. With my 300 watt Bryston amp going into Aerial Acoustic 10ts, do you have any idea whether the change from 1volt to 2 in the input gain setting should equal 6 db? I'll be checking anyway, just curious if someone knows the theoretical answer.
A factor of 2 in voltage is 6 dB. 6 dB is a factor of 2 in voltage or a factor of 4 in power.
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