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post #1 of 25 Old 06-15-2019, 03:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Atmos/4k and receiver upgrade question

Hi guys, getting the urge to upgrade my pre/pro for Atmos and 4k. Right now i have a Integra DHC 80.1 which i paid about $2500 for. I am looking at getting a new receiver with pre-outs to run to my Cinepro amplifier. I don't want to spend too much as technology changes so fast for the preamp/receiver.

I already bought 4 polk audio speakers for my ceilings and cut the holes today, wasn't as bad as i thought it would be but still need to run the wires. Looking at doing 5.1.4 Atmos if not too much more than 5.1.2. My Cinepro amp is 200x5 so it powers all my main channels. Want a receiver that has pre-outs for all channels but would be able to power my 4 or 2 ceiling speakers.

Was looking at the Denon 4400/4500 and 3500, also the Onkyo RZ830. How important is the Audyssey EQ since Onkyo doesn't have it? In Canada everything is expensive.. The Denon 3500 is $799 CDN, the Denon 4500 is $1500 CDN. Any other options?

Here is a picture of my room, any thoughts about the placement of the Atmos speakers could only do so much because of studs, etc in the ceilings.

Sorry for the mess, was painting and fixing all weekend. Any help would be very much appreciated.
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post #2 of 25 Old 06-15-2019, 05:50 PM
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Atmos/4k and receiver upgrade question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Woodhall View Post
Hi guys, getting the urge to upgrade my pre/pro for Atmos and 4k. Right now i have a Integra DHC 80.1 which i paid about $2500 for. I am looking at getting a new receiver with pre-outs to run to my Cinepro amplifier. I don't want to spend too much as technology changes so fast for the preamp/receiver.



I already bought 4 polk audio speakers for my ceilings and cut the holes today, wasn't as bad as i thought it would be but still need to run the wires. Looking at doing 5.1.4 Atmos if not too much more than 5.1.2. My Cinepro amp is 200x5 so it powers all my main channels. Want a receiver that has pre-outs for all channels but would be able to power my 4 or 2 ceiling speakers.



Was looking at the Denon 4400/4500 and 3500, also the Onkyo RZ830. How important is the Audyssey EQ since Onkyo doesn't have it? In Canada everything is expensive.. The Denon 3500 is $799 CDN, the Denon 4500 is $1500 CDN. Any other options?



Here is a picture of my room, any thoughts about the placement of the Atmos speakers could only do so much because of studs, etc in the ceilings.



Sorry for the mess, was painting and fixing all weekend. Any help would be very much appreciated.


The 4500 is an excellent AVR . I found Audyssey did a better job integrating the speakers and subs. Go for the Denon.


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Subwoofers: Dual Rythmik FV18s Rev2 with Paper cone, BOSS Platform mini riser
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Video: Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 6500 UB; Room: 2100 cuft sealed on suspended floor
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post #3 of 25 Old 06-15-2019, 06:16 PM
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I can't speak to the virtues of Audyssey over the Onkyo proprietary software.

The AVR-X4500H has two independent subwoofer outputs, if that's important to you. (It's desirable when using 2 subs with much different distances from the listening position, if you have no other equalization for them.) The Onkyo gives the same signals to its sub outputs; you could as easily use a splitter.

The Onkyo is amazingly inexpensive for its features, though.

In the US, the AVR-X4400H (2017 model) is available at closeout pricing for much less than the 4500 (2018 model). The differences between the two are (IMHO) minor. However, as far as I know, the deal isn't available in Canada. However, if you're willing to go with a refurb, you could save at https://gibbyselectronicsupermarket....mps/receivers/. They have a "B stock" 4400 for less than $1k CDN.

My own receiver is a "B stock" AVR-X4300H (2016). I've had it for 2 years. Looked new, and has been perfect, so far. I use it with an Emotiva XPA3 Gen 3 to drive LCR, while the receiver drives the remainder of a 7.2.4 setup.
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post #4 of 25 Old 06-15-2019, 10:07 PM - Thread Starter
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hey guys thanks for the responses. Ya the Onkyo sure gives a lot for the price. I think i want the Audyssey, so that might rule out the Onkyo. I only have one sub though so the dual sub equalization doesn't matter that much to me.

I was wondering about B-stock receivers, i think i would try one out, never have before though. Maybe i will wait until the model year changes and get a new one from Bestbuy. When do the new models come out?

Any opinions on the position of my Atmos speakers? would that be top middle and top rear?
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post #5 of 25 Old 06-15-2019, 10:25 PM
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Atmos/4k and receiver upgrade question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Woodhall View Post
hey guys thanks for the responses. Ya the Onkyo sure gives a lot for the price. I think i want the Audyssey, so that might rule out the Onkyo. I only have one sub though so the dual sub equalization doesn't matter that much to me.



I was wondering about B-stock receivers, i think i would try one out, never have before though. Maybe i will wait until the model year changes and get a new one from Bestbuy. When do the new models come out?



Any opinions on the position of my Atmos speakers? would that be top middle and top rear?


It’s personal preference but Front height end rear height seem to work best for me and most folks

You can look for clearance prices on the 4400 as well or look for 4500 go on sale at fry’s

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Video: Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 6500 UB; Room: 2100 cuft sealed on suspended floor
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post #6 of 25 Old 06-15-2019, 11:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Woodhall View Post
Hi guys, getting the urge to upgrade my pre/pro for Atmos and 4k. Right now i have a Integra DHC 80.1 which i paid about $2500 for. I am looking at getting a new receiver with pre-outs to run to my Cinepro amplifier. I don't want to spend too much as technology changes so fast for the preamp/receiver.

I already bought 4 polk audio speakers for my ceilings and cut the holes today, wasn't as bad as i thought it would be but still need to run the wires. Looking at doing 5.1.4 Atmos if not too much more than 5.1.2. My Cinepro amp is 200x5 so it powers all my main channels. Want a receiver that has pre-outs for all channels but would be able to power my 4 or 2 ceiling speakers.

Was looking at the Denon 4400/4500 and 3500, also the Onkyo RZ830. How important is the Audyssey EQ since Onkyo doesn't have it? In Canada everything is expensive.. The Denon 3500 is $799 CDN, the Denon 4500 is $1500 CDN. Any other options?

Here is a picture of my room, any thoughts about the placement of the Atmos speakers could only do so much because of studs, etc in the ceilings.

Sorry for the mess, was painting and fixing all weekend. Any help would be very much appreciated.
The X3500H is only a 7CH model and not able to expand to a 5.2.4 setup, however, the newer 2019 X3600H (ETA 7/15) is a 9CH model that would also work; however, will not feature Auro 3D/Auromatic.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Woodhall View Post
hey guys thanks for the responses. Ya the Onkyo sure gives a lot for the price. I think i want the Audyssey, so that might rule out the Onkyo. I only have one sub though so the dual sub equalization doesn't matter that much to me.

I was wondering about B-stock receivers, i think i would try one out, never have before though. Maybe i will wait until the model year changes and get a new one from Bestbuy. When do the new models come out?

Any opinions on the position of my Atmos speakers? would that be top middle and top rear?
The more ideal location of the forward in-ceiling speakers would have been closer to the Front L/R speakers to provide for more separation between them and the rear in-ceiling speakers. As it goes, the sound between them may be hard to discern; however, you'll want to use Top Front + Top Rear if you favor Atmos/Dolby Surround upmixer or Front Height + Rear Height if you favor DTS:X/DTS Neural:X.
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post #7 of 25 Old 06-16-2019, 12:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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The X3500H is only a 7CH model and not able to expand to a 5.2.4 setup, however, the newer 2019 X3600H (ETA 7/15) is a 9CH model that would also work; however, will not feature Auro 3D/Auromatic.




The more ideal location of the forward in-ceiling speakers would have been closer to the Front L/R speakers to provide for more separation between them and the rear in-ceiling speakers. As it goes, the sound between them may be hard to discern; however, you'll want to use Top Front + Top Rear if you favor Atmos/Dolby Surround upmixer or Front Height + Rear Height if you favor DTS:X/DTS Neural:X.

do you know the MSRP of the x3500h? that might be perfect. I can also move the front speakers a few feet forward if you think it will make a difference, it is only drywall and it was really the back ones that were difficult. How much forward would you think they should go? i can take a pic tomorrow from the listening position.
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post #8 of 25 Old 06-16-2019, 12:23 AM
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do you know the MSRP of the x3500h? that might be perfect. I can also move the front speakers a few feet forward if you think it will make a difference, it is only drywall and it was really the back ones that were difficult. How much forward would you think they should go? i can take a pic tomorrow from the listening position.
You likely mean the X3600H in which the MSRP as noted in the 2019 Denon AVR Owner's thread is $1099USD.

I would suggest you try the forward in-ceiling speakers in their current position first to see if you notice any separation. If not, move them as far forward as you can closer to the Front L/R speakers.
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post #9 of 25 Old 06-16-2019, 12:27 AM - Thread Starter
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yes, I meant the x3600h. I will give them a try, thanks for your help!
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post #10 of 25 Old 06-16-2019, 02:43 PM - Thread Starter
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moved the front Atmos speakers, is this better?
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post #11 of 25 Old 06-16-2019, 02:59 PM
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moved the front Atmos speakers, is this better?
The more separation, the better experience, so yes, although I'm sure your wife will be glad when the holes get filled in.
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Much like you, when I switched to 4k and needed to upgrade my receiver, I was looking at the previous years models for a bigger discount and was between Denon and Onkyo. I had the RZ820 for a few months because it had the better specs. Basically almost all AVR's are VERY similar in this price category, but in terms of room correction (from what I've seen) starting at the x3400/3500/3600 and higher models from Denon, that would be my choice to get Audyssey XT32 over AccuEQ which wasn't great for me.


I ended up getting a NAD T758v3 for $999 from my local Visions (not sure where you're located in Canada if you have one nearby) since it includes DIRAC room correction, and it is such a huge difference. I would recommend looking into that above Denon and Onkyo if you can. If not, go for a Denon/Marantz receiver that includes Audyssey XT32. Model doesn't matter much as long as it can power however many channels you need for your setup.

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post #13 of 25 Old 06-16-2019, 03:41 PM - Thread Starter
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The more separation, the better experience, so yes, although I'm sure your wife will be glad when the holes get filled in.
ya, she will be happy.. That drywall dust covered EVERYTHING, such a mess.. Wanted your approval though so it was worth it
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post #14 of 25 Old 06-16-2019, 03:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Much like you, when I switched to 4k and needed to upgrade my receiver, I was looking at the previous years models for a bigger discount and was between Denon and Onkyo. I had the RZ820 for a few months because it had the better specs. Basically almost all AVR's are VERY similar in this price category, but in terms of room correction (from what I've seen) starting at the x3400/3500/3600 and higher models from Denon, that would be my choice to get Audyssey XT32 over AccuEQ which wasn't great for me.


I ended up getting a NAD T758v3 for $999 from my local Visions (not sure where you're located in Canada if you have one nearby) since it includes DIRAC room correction, and it is such a huge difference. I would recommend looking into that above Denon and Onkyo if you can. If not, go for a Denon/Marantz receiver that includes Audyssey XT32. Model doesn't matter much as long as it can power however many channels you need for your setup.
I am in Vancouver, will have a look at Visions. Not sure i like the Onkyo room correction software. Seems to be many that go bad too, not too thrilled about that. The other issue i forgot is the unit needs to be under 8 inches because that is all the space I have in my cabinet Just looked at the NAD, it's $1699, how did you get it for $1K?
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Quote:
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I am in Vancouver, will have a look at Visions. Not sure i like the Onkyo room correction software. Seems to be many that go bad too, not too thrilled about that. The other issue i forgot is the unit needs to be under 8 inches because that is all the space I have in my cabinet Just looked at the NAD, it's $1699, how did you get it for $1K?

At my location the manager said he was clearing it out (it was the showroom model). Not sure if it's because they wanted to bring in the T777 instead or possibly a new upcoming NAD model or something. Also unlike other big box stores, you can negotiate pricing at Visions. Best to go in and look at what they have available and then go from there as I've found the in-store pricing often has deals and pricing that the website won't have.

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post #16 of 25 Old 06-16-2019, 03:57 PM - Thread Starter
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At my location the manager said he was clearing it out (it was the showroom model). Not sure if it's because they wanted to bring in the T777 instead or possibly a new upcoming NAD model or something. Also unlike other big box stores, you can negotiate pricing at Visions. Best to go in and look at what they have available and then go from there as I've found the in-store pricing often has deals and pricing that the website won't have.
sounds good, will give it a try.. i will probably do some drywalling and see how much the new Denon comes out as and go from there.
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post #17 of 25 Old 06-17-2019, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Craig Woodhall View Post
I am in Vancouver, will have a look at Visions. Not sure i like the Onkyo room correction software. Seems to be many that go bad too, not too thrilled about that. The other issue i forgot is the unit needs to be under 8 inches because that is all the space I have in my cabinet Just looked at the NAD, it's $1699, how did you get it for $1K?
This minimal space will result in insufficient ventilation of the AVR causing numerous issues in a very short period of time. If this is the only possible location for the new AVR, suggest you look into an external cooling fan solution to draw the warm air away from the AVR (eg. AC Infinity Aircom T8 (rear exhaust) or T10 (front exhaust).
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post #18 of 25 Old 06-17-2019, 09:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Woodhall View Post
Hi guys, getting the urge to upgrade my pre/pro for Atmos and 4k. Right now i have a Integra DHC 80.1 which i paid about $2500 for. I am looking at getting a new receiver with pre-outs to run to my Cinepro amplifier. I don't want to spend too much as technology changes so fast for the preamp/receiver.

I already bought 4 polk audio speakers for my ceilings and cut the holes today, wasn't as bad as i thought it would be but still need to run the wires. Looking at doing 5.1.4 Atmos if not too much more than 5.1.2. My Cinepro amp is 200x5 so it powers all my main channels. Want a receiver that has pre-outs for all channels but would be able to power my 4 or 2 ceiling speakers.

Was looking at the Denon 4400/4500 and 3500, also the Onkyo RZ830. How important is the Audyssey EQ since Onkyo doesn't have it? In Canada everything is expensive.. The Denon 3500 is $799 CDN, the Denon 4500 is $1500 CDN. Any other options?

Here is a picture of my room, any thoughts about the placement of the Atmos speakers could only do so much because of studs, etc in the ceilings.

Sorry for the mess, was painting and fixing all weekend. Any help would be very much appreciated.
You're in Canada. Get an Anthem 1120 and be done with it. I think they're running a 20% off special.

ARC Genesis destroys Audyssey.

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ARC Genesis destroys Audyssey.

Like everything else some like ARC better than Audyssey some don’t. It’s not a 100% definitive statement by a long shot.



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post #20 of 25 Old 06-17-2019, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
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ARC Genesis destroys Audyssey.

Like everything else some like ARC better than Audyssey some don’t. It’s not a 100% definitive statement by a long shot.



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Not absolute, but it's the significant majority opinion.

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post #21 of 25 Old 06-18-2019, 06:51 AM - Thread Starter
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was able to get a Denon 4500 for $1425 CDN plus tax, it is on hold for me. Wonder if i would be better off waiting for the 3600x?
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post #22 of 25 Old 06-18-2019, 07:55 AM
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was able to get a Denon 4500, it is on hold for me. Wonder if i would be better off waiting for the 3600x?
Depends on what features you want as each offers features the other does not have. Review post 1 in each of the 2018 and 2019 Denon AVR Owner's threads for features provided in each model.

Also, note there is no price discussion in other than the "Deals" sticky thread.

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post #23 of 25 Old 06-19-2019, 11:44 PM
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was able to get a Denon 4500 for $1425 CDN plus tax, it is on hold for me. Wonder if i would be better off waiting for the 3600x?

If there's no price discussion allowed, then all I'll say is that it's been much cheaper than that previously, even when I got my TV black friday last year. I would not be paying that price 8 months later especially if their next models are coming out soon.

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post #24 of 25 Old 06-20-2019, 12:07 AM
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If there's no price discussion allowed, then all I'll say is that it's been much cheaper than that previously, even when I got my TV black friday last year. I would not be paying that price 8 months later especially if their next models are coming out soon.
The X4500H won't be replaced until Sep 2020.
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post #25 of 25 Old 06-20-2019, 05:29 AM - Thread Starter
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sorry about the price discussion. I picked up the 4500 last night even cheaper, very happy. I have a couple questions but will post them in the official thread.

Last edited by Craig Woodhall; 06-20-2019 at 06:47 AM.
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