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post #1 of 51 Old 06-20-2019, 02:58 PM - Thread Starter
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warm, bright, very bright AVR??

i tested KEF LS50 today and i find them a little bit bright, so i thought a warm and high watt AVreceiver would balance them and be able to drive.

but is warm/bright true or a myth??

i heard marantz receivers are warm, Denon in the middle or bright and onkyo/yamaha are very bright

the AVR budget would be around 2000 USD
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post #2 of 51 Old 06-20-2019, 03:04 PM
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If you look at a broad range of AVR's and compare them I think you'll find the frequency responses will all be withing a few db of each other across the frequency spectrum. How can that relate to warm, neutral, or bright? They should all sound very similar with the same speakers in the same listening space. Want a warmer sound? Get warmer sounding speakers. Or an equalizer, then tune in the sound you're looking for.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alkaizer View Post
i tested KEF LS50 today and i find them a little bit bright, so i thought a warm and high watt AVreceiver would balance them and be able to drive.

but is warm/bright true or a myth??

i heard marantz receivers are warm, Denon in the middle or bright and onkyo/yamaha are very bright

the AVR budget would be around 2000 USD
Most modern day AVR's I have seen actually tested, as in, based on facts and not vague, subjective impressions, show them to be flat and neutral, i.e. accurate, with any measurable variance below the threshold of human hearing. In other words, if an AVR measure +/- .1 dB 20-20Khz, that is accurate. Not warm. Not bright. Not crispy, nor airy nor detailed blah blah blah. People hear what they want to hear and the ears are easily fooled. Better to make decisions based on facts imo.

There are several websites that post nice, detailed measurements of many amps and AVR's. Unless they are intentionally designed to be inaccurate or high distortion such as audiophile tube amps or something, the speakers are what you hear. Well designed amps/AVR's simply supply accurate voltage from the source. Not all amps have the same capability, noise floors, etc. But blind testing would eliminate most or all of the imagined flowery audiophile gobbledy gook that people invent when comparing how amps "sound".
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post #4 of 51 Old 06-20-2019, 05:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alkaizer View Post
i tested KEF LS50 today and i find them a little bit bright, so i thought a warm and high watt AVreceiver would balance them and be able to drive.



but is warm/bright true or a myth??



i heard marantz receivers are warm, Denon in the middle or bright and onkyo/yamaha are very bright



the AVR budget would be around 2000 USD
Did you have a sub attached to the system when you auditioned these LS50s?

Human brain works in such a way that if you have weaker bass frequencies, the speaker sounds bright (too much high frequencies).
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post #5 of 51 Old 06-20-2019, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alkaizer View Post
i tested KEF LS50 today and i find them a little bit bright, so i thought a warm and high watt AVreceiver would balance them and be able to drive.



but is warm/bright true or a myth??



i heard marantz receivers are warm, Denon in the middle or bright and onkyo/yamaha are very bright



the AVR budget would be around 2000 USD
While it is true that most AVRs should sound the same when operating withing their operating range.

But music often has transient peaks and if enough current or power is not available for those peaks the speaker will sound harsh that may seem bright to some.

A 20 dB peaks means 100 times the power and 10 times the current.

A 4 ohm Speaker playing at 4 to 8 watts will require 1 to 1.4 amp current. Now with 20 dB peak this will jump to 400 to 800 watts transient power and 10 to 14 amps transient current. I understand that impedence is different from resistance and this calculation is not entirely correct.

But it does illustrate the need for high transient power in AVRs. Some amps do not provide sufficient transient power/current and may sound harsh or bright.
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post #6 of 51 Old 06-20-2019, 05:46 PM
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Well all I can say is this my first Denon in years after having Yamaha for a very, very long time, 15+ years. The Yamaha to me was more "lively" and the Denon is bit flat or mundane and that is not a slight on the Denon. I'm not even sure I even explained it right but to my ears there is a difference in sound.
Oh I have the X3400H. Should have mentioned that earlier in my post.
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post #7 of 51 Old 06-20-2019, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Hetfieldjames View Post
Well all I can say is this my first Denon in years after having Yamaha for a very, very long time, 15+ years. The Yamaha to me was more "lively" and the Denon is bit flat or mundane and that is not a slight on the Denon. I'm not even sure I even explained it right but to my ears there is a difference in sound.
Oh I have the X3400H. Should have mentioned that earlier in my post.
That difference is probably in pre amp.
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post #8 of 51 Old 06-20-2019, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by SouthernCA View Post
That difference is probably in pre amp.
What exactly does that mean so I can understand?
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post #9 of 51 Old 06-20-2019, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Knucklehead90 View Post
If you look at a broad range of AVR's and compare them I think you'll find the frequency responses will all be withing a few db of each other across the frequency spectrum. How can that relate to warm, neutral, or bright? They should all sound very similar with the same speakers in the same listening space. Want a warmer sound? Get warmer sounding speakers. Or an equalizer, then tune in the sound you're looking for.
In theory that may/should be a valid point, but in practice, there does seem to be a discernable difference in the way different AVRs sound. If what you say is totally correct, it doesn't matter what AVR you get - just pick any AVR w/o seeing or hearing it and focus solely on speakers. I've had an AVR from virtually every manufacturer over the last 25 years or so, and I can defnitely hear a difference. My obsevations from warm to bright (or choose you own adjectives): Marantz...Denon...Anthem...Yamaha...Sony/SonyES...Onkyo...Pioneer Elite. This is just my experience.
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post #10 of 51 Old 06-20-2019, 06:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hetfieldjames View Post
Well all I can say is this my first Denon in years after having Yamaha for a very, very long time, 15+ years. The Yamaha to me was more "lively" and the Denon is bit flat or mundane and that is not a slight on the Denon. I'm not even sure I even explained it right but to my ears there is a difference in sound.
Oh I have the X3400H. Should have mentioned that earlier in my post.
Not a slight, but my observation too. With Denon and Marantz, my ears always perceive a roll-off in the upper frequencies. I'd be careful in mating those with what may be perceived to be "warm" sounding speakers.
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post #11 of 51 Old 06-20-2019, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by spacecowboy View Post
Not a slight, but my observation too. With Denon and Marantz, my ears always perceive a roll-off in the upper frequencies. I'd be careful in mating those with what may be perceived to be "warm" sounding speakers.
Yes, this is exactly why I ended up turning off Audyssey. Sounds much better without it but still different from Yamaha. I went with Denon because they have a high output from them pre outs or at least that's what I read and I have a 5 channel Parasound amp in my system.
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post #12 of 51 Old 06-20-2019, 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Hetfieldjames View Post
Yes, this is exactly why I ended up turning off Audyssey. Sounds much better without it but still different from Yamaha. I went with Denon because they have a high output from them pre outs or at least that's what I read and I have a 5 channel Parasound amp in my system.
When I told people that I disabled Audessey on my Denon (when I had them) I used to get venom from a few people. It works for many people, but it did some funky things to the overall experience and muddied the sound.
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post #13 of 51 Old 06-20-2019, 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted by spacecowboy View Post
When I told people that I disabled Audessey on my Denon (when I had them) I used to get venom from a few people. It works for many people, but it did some funky things to the overall experience and muddied the sound.
Very funky things. Knee capped the system. Really took the life out of it. It's like the entire system was being held back. I had to turn it off.
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post #14 of 51 Old 06-20-2019, 10:41 PM
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The amp section of a modern AVR is neutral. However, the processor part can apply curves to the audio to make it bright or dull or whatever. Things like the tone controls, room correction, bass management cause this.

Of course,if you take all those off, then the preamps should sound the same to since they are just decoding audio and not altering it for the room or enhanced bass or treble.
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post #15 of 51 Old 06-21-2019, 02:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Worf View Post
The amp section of a modern AVR is neutral. However, the processor part can apply curves to the audio to make it bright or dull or whatever. Things like the tone controls, room correction, bass management cause this.

Of course,if you take all those off, then the preamps should sound the same to since they are just decoding audio and not altering it for the room or enhanced bass or treble.
Agree 100%. The different processing each AVR applies will of course affect the sound, as it is changing the sound, intentionally. But hook up speakers to any brand of AVR without applying room correction or use of tone controls and they will all sound the same when operated within their limits.

As mentioned by several in the thread, I also would not use Audysey to do full range eq. Go with a model that has XT32 and use the app to limit eq to below 3-400 Hz or so. Then just use tone controls if you want to adjust overall treble a bit. I think the idea of applying eq to the sound at the MLP to some kind of flattish in room response isn't the best idea as it is eq'ing a combined response which includes all sorts of room reflections. Personally, Audysey has done a good job for me(full range) with speakers that had a really really poor response in room, but with better speakers that have a very accurate on and off axis response, things sound much better without.

Also some good points brought up about subs. The little Kefs don't have enough extension or bass capability by themselves. Pair them with a good pair of subs should drastically improve sound.
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post #16 of 51 Old 06-21-2019, 02:49 AM - Thread Starter
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thanks for all the feedback

YAMAHA AVR provide high watt per channel (140 watt 2ch drive 8 ohm 0.08%) for price range compare with other brands (marantz/denon)

thats good to drive the LS50 i guess (as 5.1 HT). would it be a good match??
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post #17 of 51 Old 06-21-2019, 03:06 AM
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I like the Denon X6500. It has what I consider to be a very worthwhile feature, dialogue enhancement. Dialogue enhancement helps with dialogue intelligibility. The power ratings of most AVRs are inflated. What you really need are bench tests showing power output into 7 channels simultaneously.
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post #18 of 51 Old 06-21-2019, 03:50 AM
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I own and owned/used many Denon & Marantz receivers in the past. A month ago I was able to do a direct comparison using the same source and speakers.


I switched from a Marantz NR-1506 to a Denon AVR-1910 on my PC. After calibrating, the obvious power difference made me smile. However, it's noticeably brighter. Highs and lows are exaggerated, while mid frequencies are somewhat muted which makes music a little less "real". With the Marantz, you can imagine you're listening to it live, while with the Denon, you know you're in your house and listening to a digital recording.


That's why I always use Marantz for music and Denon for movies and gaming. They are both excellent in their intended usage and built like tanks.


Yamaha on the other hand did not impress me with their LED displays dimming in sync with the music when I demoed several back in the day. Maybe they've improved over the years I don't know. But it's still Denon/Marantz who earn the rewards in the industry.
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post #19 of 51 Old 06-21-2019, 05:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by spyboy View Post
I like the Denon X6500. It has what I consider to be a very worthwhile feature, dialogue enhancement. Dialogue enhancement helps with dialogue intelligibility. The power ratings of most AVRs are inflated. What you really need are bench tests showing power output into 7 channels simultaneously.
inflated? guess best thing to do is to read reviews that include tests and benchmarks.

UPDATE!

found a bench test for yamaha 2070. it even provide more watt than official 140-155 watt claimed. 167 watt 8 ohm 2ch driven

to my surprise, 2ch high watt doesnt necessary mean a high 7ch compare with other brands with lower 2ch.

why?

quick comparison

Yamaha 2070 = 2ch 167 5ch 104 7ch 40 watt

Denon X3400 = 2ch 123 5ch 97 7ch 72

NAD t758v3 = 2ch 100 5ch 86 7ch 66

seems Denon is strongest for HT

all 8ohm 0.01THD

https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...iew-test-bench

Last edited by Alkaizer; 06-21-2019 at 06:00 AM.
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post #20 of 51 Old 06-24-2019, 06:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alkaizer View Post
inflated? guess best thing to do is to read reviews that include tests and benchmarks.

UPDATE!

found a bench test for yamaha 2070. it even provide more watt than official 140-155 watt claimed. 167 watt 8 ohm 2ch driven

to my surprise, 2ch high watt doesnt necessary mean a high 7ch compare with other brands with lower 2ch.

why?

quick comparison

Yamaha 2070 = 2ch 167 5ch 104 7ch 40 watt

Denon X3400 = 2ch 123 5ch 97 7ch 72

NAD t758v3 = 2ch 100 5ch 86 7ch 66

seems Denon is strongest for HT

all 8ohm 0.01THD

https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...iew-test-bench
More watts doesn't equal better performance. All of the reviews you posted above will only yield slight variations in volume that may even be imperceptible to the ears.
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post #21 of 51 Old 06-24-2019, 07:32 AM
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Th majority of time the claims that an AVR sounds bright is more due to the type, brand/model loudspeaker connected. Or even room placement.
Each loudspeaker loads the amplifier in its own unique way which can/will alter its frequency response...

Just my $0.02..
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post #22 of 51 Old 06-24-2019, 07:55 AM
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Most AVR's today has over rated there higher end Denons guarantee 70%. The old Sony 1040 had 7 individual amps that wear 100 watts each you don't get that in most AVR's these days unless you buy something very high end like storm audio. Personally I am saving to get something from Anthem or the 16 channel Processor from mono price. Then using a 7 channel monolith amp from mono price or the 7 channel amp from Yamaha.

Best to get a AVR with Pre outs and a separate amp unless you have very efficient speakers. This combo is usually cheaper than getting a processor and a amp combo.

Bright or warm this is usually the speakers Klipsch use to be bright I hear that there newer one are not as bright I personally can not deal with horn type speakers have ringing in my ears and horn type speakers actually cause slight pain to me if watching a movie or something for a length of time. I found that ribbon type tweeters are the best for me as far as listening too.
You may take years finding a speaker that is right for you or that you are very happy with depending how you go about the set up.

I suggest getting the front 3 and a sub or two subs if you can afford and have the room . Spend the money on the speakers and sub or subs first that you like the way they sound and are happy with. NO AVR is magic and can make bad speaker sound the way you want them to if you don't like them already, they may make it sound a little better not a big game changer.

Then work on a better AVR or AVR / amp combo.

Anthem and NAD get a lot of good reviews and have a lot better room correction than the others.

Maybe some day will see manufactures putting more power into there recovers
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post #23 of 51 Old 06-24-2019, 10:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spacecowboy View Post
In theory that may/should be a valid point, but in practice, there does seem to be a discernable difference in the way different AVRs sound. If what you say is totally correct, it doesn't matter what AVR you get - just pick any AVR w/o seeing or hearing it and focus solely on speakers. I've had an AVR from virtually every manufacturer over the last 25 years or so, and I can defnitely hear a difference. My obsevations from warm to bright (or choose you own adjectives): Marantz...Denon...Anthem...Yamaha...Sony/SonyES...Onkyo...Pioneer Elite. This is just my experience.
Hey Spacecowboy, just curious where you would put a Harman on your list, if possible
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post #24 of 51 Old 06-25-2019, 05:53 AM
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Hey Spacecowboy, just curious where you would put a Harman on your list, if possible
I had an H/K AVR-80, AVR-65 and a H/K PA5800 5-Channel amp. The H/K sound was very warm. As a matter of fact, I would put the H/K as warmer than Marantz with an almost dark quality that found a niche following in the music community.

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Originally Posted by spacecowboy View Post
I had an H/K AVR-80, AVR-65 and a H/K PA5800 5-Channel amp. The H/K sound was very warm. As a matter of fact, I would put the H/K as warmer than Marantz with an almost dark quality that found a niche following in the music community.
Regarding the mentioned HK receivers and power amplifiers, their amplifier output stage topology was designed in the USA by Richie Miller. Though certain products like the receivers were built in the Far East, Richie still designed the amplifier circuits. Richie was based out of Woodbury, NY and well respected some of his designs included the highly acclaimed Citation series..

Just my $0.02...
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post #26 of 51 Old 06-25-2019, 11:27 AM
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I recently had a chance to do as close to a blind listening test as a typical person might be able to. A salesman at a retail store level-matched 2 receivers through a pair of Revel M16 speakers (speakers I own and am very familiar with), both playing in their respective 'direct' modes to eliminate EQ; as the receivers were set up behind me I had no way of knowing what 2 he chose. He then did A/B testing with him switching intermittently, asking which one I liked better and why. I felt like I could *maybe* hear the subtlest of differences, with one being a bit more full and deep in vocals/mids and the other having a bit more bass. In all honesty though it was so close that any difference could have been in my head.

At that point he told me one was a Marantz SR6013 and the other an Onkyo NR686 and had me guess which was which. I guessed the Marantz had the better vocals and the Onkyo more bass... I guessed wrong.

Takeaway from this story? Anecdotal of course and I'm just one person conducting a hardly-scientific experiment, but for me it was interesting to hear firsthand just how little (if any) difference there was between two brands that are often claimed to be very different in their sonic profiles.
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post #27 of 51 Old 06-25-2019, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alkaizer View Post
inflated? guess best thing to do is to read reviews that include tests and benchmarks.

UPDATE!

found a bench test for yamaha 2070. it even provide more watt than official 140-155 watt claimed. 167 watt 8 ohm 2ch driven

to my surprise, 2ch high watt doesnt necessary mean a high 7ch compare with other brands with lower 2ch.

why?

quick comparison

Yamaha 2070 = 2ch 167 5ch 104 7ch 40 watt

Denon X3400 = 2ch 123 5ch 97 7ch 72

NAD t758v3 = 2ch 100 5ch 86 7ch 66

seems Denon is strongest for HT

all 8ohm 0.01THD

https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...iew-test-bench

Bench tests with all channels driven are not realistic, as they typically use the same input signal to all channels. Which rarely if ever happens with program material.

The bench test differences in multiple-driven channels simply infer the differences in power supplies, which is often the second main property you pay for in AVRs after the brand name (see "Sony Tax" in display forums). Most AVRs' power supplies range between 400-700 watts available to be divvied up between the powered channels. That's less than a 3-dB difference that would appear in main-channel output power.

Going from an 87 dB/W/m speaker to, say, a 95 dB/W/m speaker would be like going from an AVR driving all channels to having 600-watt monoblocks on each channel. So if you're concerned about headroom, look at higher-sensitivity (entry-level pro) speakers for the mains (the surrounds can be almost anything). Most people these days just don't (or can't) play that loud in their domiciles.
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post #28 of 51 Old 06-25-2019, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by KSpan View Post
I recently had a chance to do as close to a blind listening test as a typical person might be able to. A salesman at a retail store level-matched 2 receivers through a pair of Revel M16 speakers (speakers I own and am very familiar with), both playing in their respective 'direct' modes to eliminate EQ; as the receivers were set up behind me I had no way of knowing what 2 he chose. He then did A/B testing with him switching intermittently, asking which one I liked better and why. I felt like I could *maybe* hear the subtlest of differences, with one being a bit more full and deep in vocals/mids and the other having a bit more bass. In all honesty though it was so close that any difference could have been in my head.

At that point he told me one was a Marantz SR6013 and the other an Onkyo NR686 and had me guess which was which. I guessed the Marantz had the better vocals and the Onkyo more bass... I guessed wrong.

Takeaway from this story? Anecdotal of course and I'm just one person conducting a hardly-scientific experiment, but for me it was interesting to hear firsthand just how little (if any) difference there was between two brands that are often claimed to be very different in their sonic profiles.
Not to sound disrespectful, but if you can't tell a difference, it means that you purchase on price alone? Even when I walk into a Best Buy listening room with all of it's imperfections, I can hear a difference as they switch from unit to unit.

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post #29 of 51 Old 06-25-2019, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spacecowboy View Post
Not to sound disrespectful, but if you can't tell a difference, it means that you purchase on price alone? Even when I walk into a Best Buy listening room with all of it's imperfections, I can hear a difference as they switch from unit to unit.
While my experiences are but my own, I've been doing audio for almost 30 years including playing music professionally with a wide range of basses/rigs and recording/mixing at some very nice studios on some very expensive equipment. I'm no authority but I do like to think my ears are pretty well tuned in to the nuances of sound and this was the experience I had with level-matched amplifier sections (direct, no processing/EQ) and lossless material through quality speakers in a quiet listening room. Would have been interesting for someone else to be there with me and try as well but that wasn't the case. If there was a difference that I just didn't pick up on it sure wasn't striking enough to justify a 400% price premium.
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post #30 of 51 Old 06-25-2019, 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
I have always been able to tell the differences between receivers when they come out of the box. I have owned many receiver brands over the years and often several at the same time. I have always found Yamaha on the bright/edgy side and Denon/Marantz on the warm side. Out of the box they definitely have a "brand" sound signature. EQ and room correction can alleviate the differences, but their out of the box sound is very apparent.
They do sound different. Yamaha has stated that they have a sound they call natural sound, some would call it brighter. Since they also make musical instruments their engineers think they know how things should sound. Some people think their pianos are on the brighter side sound-wise (but some musicians like that quality.) Marantz has been the warmer side for decades, that's how their engineers think things should sound. I have owned a few brands too. As always match your speakers to your receiver, then EQ.
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