Denon vs Marantz (AVR) - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 19 Old 07-20-2019, 10:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Denon vs Marantz (AVR)

I know that these two brands have merged, but are the internal amplifier circuit the same or different of similarly priced AVR's?

With respect to: Transistors, Toroidal Transformers, Capacitors, etc.....

Example: Denon AVR-X4500H vs Marantz SR6013 or SR6014

Which one will have the better amplifier circuitry? or do they share the same components?

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post #2 of 19 Old 07-20-2019, 10:29 AM
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Denon and Marantz came together under the same parent company about 20 years ago.

Much of the internals are the same between "sister" models (see below) with Marantz shining with their unique HDAM pre-amp modules (esp. music) and still offering multi analog inputs on the lower models.

Denon X4500H <==> Marantz SR7013

Denon X3500H <==> Marantz SR6013

Denon X3600H <==> Marantz SR6014
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post #3 of 19 Old 07-20-2019, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
Denon and Marantz came together under the same parent company about 20 years ago.



Much of the internals are the same between "sister" models (see below) with Marantz shining with their unique HDAM pre-amp modules (esp. music) and still offering multi analog inputs on the lower models.



Denon X4500H <==> Marantz SR7013



Denon X3500H <==> Marantz SR6013



Denon X3600H <==> Marantz SR6014
I still get confused by the marantz last 2 digits. Difference between say, 7011 vs 6012 vs 7013.

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post #4 of 19 Old 07-20-2019, 03:36 PM
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@pbz06 the 6011/7011 are from 2016, 6012/7012 from 2017 and 6013/7013 from 2018.

The sr6012/6013 from Marantz is the cousin to the Denon x3400/x3500 but with with 2 more channels, hdam circuits and preins for sacd playback. The sr7012 is a step up with more power, similar to the cousin x4400 from Denon. Then the big boys are the Denon x6500, Marantz sr8012 and now the king, Denon x8500.


Do I have that right @jdsmoothie ?
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post #5 of 19 Old 07-20-2019, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eriksells916 View Post
@pbz06 the 6011/7011 are from 2016, 6012/7012 from 2017 and 6013/7013 from 2018.

The sr6012/6013 from Marantz is the cousin to the Denon x3400/x3500 but with with 2 more channels, hdam circuits and preins for sacd playback. The sr7012 is a step up with more power, similar to the cousin x4400 from Denon. Then the big boys are the Denon x6500, Marantz sr8012 and now the king, Denon x8500.


Do I have that right @jdsmoothie ?
Yup.

With the added note that the SR7013/SR8012 and X4500H/X6500H will continue thru 2019 to 2020 and not be replaced until the fall of 2020.
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post #6 of 19 Old 07-21-2019, 08:33 AM
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i can't resist...
HDAM is a big marketing fake
these "High Dynamic Amplifier Modules" are nothing but simple, discrete assembled operational amplifiers (OpAmps) which you can get as ICs in "high end" quality for a few cent! E.g. a NE5532 is still much better than required for audio purposes.
everywhere else the manufacturers, designers, developers are proud of "high integration" and they are right:
- all parts within an integrated circuit are based on the same silicon incl. production process, you don't need do manually match transistors etc.
- all parts operate at the same temperature
- parts are small (lower capacity) and paths are short (lower inductivity)

so from a technical point of view these HDAM are the most stupid thing to use, but people like to be fooled...
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post #7 of 19 Old 07-21-2019, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickey Mouse View Post
i can't resist...
HDAM is a big marketing fake
these "High Dynamic Amplifier Modules" are nothing but simple, discrete assembled operational amplifiers (OpAmps) which you can get as ICs in "high end" quality for a few cent! E.g. a NE5532 is still much better than required for audio purposes.
everywhere else the manufacturers, designers, developers are proud of "high integration" and they are right:
- all parts within an integrated circuit are based on the same silicon incl. production process, you don't need do manually match transistors etc.
- all parts operate at the same temperature
- parts are small (lower capacity) and paths are short (lower inductivity)

so from a technical point of view these HDAM are the most stupid thing to use, but people like to be fooled...
I'll take the word of hundreds of owners who have posted over the years comparing both brands, much preferring Marantz over Denon specifically for music listening as a result of the use of the HDAM modules.
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post #8 of 19 Old 07-21-2019, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
I'll take the word of hundreds of owners who have posted over the years comparing both brands, much preferring Marantz over Denon specifically for music listening as a result of the use of the HDAM modules.
If we're talking anecdotes here's one that I've shared in a couple of other threads. I recently did a single-blind, level-matched, instant-switch comparison of what ended up being a Marantz 6013 and an Onkyo NR686... salesman picked two receivers and didn't tell me anything about them. He knew I own an Onkyo NR656 so ended up selecting the 676 to compare against, not telling me until we were done what the receivers were... playing lossless through some Revel speakers they were so close that any difference could easily have been in my head even though I 'know the Onkyo sound'.

They were on their respective direct modes so any difference from HDAM, DACs, etc should have been obvious yet no discernible difference. Nada. Anecdotal of course, but an interesting experience.
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post #9 of 19 Old 07-21-2019, 01:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
Much of the internals are the same between "sister" models (see below) with Marantz shining with their unique HDAM pre-amp modules (esp. music) and still offering multi analog inputs on the lower models.

Denon X4500H <==> Marantz SR7013

Denon X3500H <==> Marantz SR6013

Denon X3600H <==> Marantz SR6014
If these models are sisters/cousins and are practically identical on paper.....
Why the significant price difference?

Denon X4500 $1599.00 vs Marantz SR7013 $2199.00.......$600.00 Difference

What more do I get with Marantz for an extra $600.00?


Quote:
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i can't resist...
HDAM is a big marketing fake
so from a technical point of view these HDAM are the most stupid thing to use, but people like to be fooled...
Unfortunately, Snake Oil is still being sold today in many different industries.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
I'll take the word of hundreds of owners who have posted over the years comparing both brands, much preferring Marantz over Denon specifically for music listening as a result of the use of the HDAM modules.
Although I agree that opinions from owners are valuable......as soon as some claim that they may have heard a difference.....
others will believe it too, even if they heard no difference.

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post #10 of 19 Old 07-21-2019, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boombox13 View Post
If these models are sisters/cousins and are practically identical on paper.....
Why the significant price difference?
Denon X4500 $1599.00 vs Marantz SR7013 $2199.00.......$600.00 Difference
What more do I get with Marantz for an extra $600.00?
the companies take as much money as they can get, that's the idea behind one "mother" and several "daughter" companies!
you produce almost the same thing twice (or even more) and sell them with different branding and price tags. So you serve with one product in different clothes different customer groups: the ones who pray: "you get what you pay for" and strongly believe they get "something better" and the ones who look for the money are happy because they made a bargain -> everybody (incl. manufacturer) is happy...

these days the Marantz are "higher rated" than the comparable Denon. That was different a few years back when i bought a Marantz SR7009 which was significantly cheaper than the "similar" X5200 (i know, some people still believe an AVR sounds better if 9 amps are split up onto 9 separate circuit boards instead of one. I say: if in doubt, less connectors are better ). For sure these both models shared 100% exactly the same (very specific) bugs.

you also have to look at the "official" and "street" prices and/or the different regions
here in Germany/Europe the prices (absolute and relativ) are different:
4500 1100€ ($1235)
7013 1290€ ($1450)
-> $215 difference
Officially they are 1800€/$2020 and 1600€/$1800, 19% already included!
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post #11 of 19 Old 07-21-2019, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Mickey Mouse View Post
That was different a few years back when i bought a Marantz SR7009 which was significantly cheaper than the "similar" X5200
That's because the X5200W was a higher level model. The Denon 4000 series and Marantz 7000 series have always been sister models, the X4100W being the sister model to the SR7009. The X5200W was a better built model with stronger amps, more features, and also mfr'd in Japan like the "flagship" models (as are the current 6000 models that replaced the X5200W).

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post #12 of 19 Old 07-21-2019, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Boombox13 View Post
If these models are sisters/cousins and are practically identical on paper.....
Why the significant price difference?
Didn't say "practically identical", as at the very least, the Marantz have some extra components as previously indicated.
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post #13 of 19 Old 07-21-2019, 04:22 PM
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D&M and now United Audio can not afford the significant expense of having (2) separate development, production teams, tooling and subcontractor assemblers. Marantz sales are significantly smaller than Denon so their ROI was not acceptable to management. About (6) years ago while the brands were under D&M & Bain Capitiol control they decided to have a common engineering group, use common PCBs, similar firmware and have their products assembled at the same subcontractor Inkel-Sherwood in Vietnam. Now under United Audio control, they have devised a separate distribution strategy for each brand; Marantz going upmarket more to the independent AV specialist while Denon serves a broader market including big-box and internet sellers. Also Denon trys to penetrate the CEDIA installer specialsts with their CI products and pushing hard with their HEOS compatible products...

Just my $0.02...
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post #14 of 19 Old 07-21-2019, 05:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
Didn't say "practically identical", as at the very least, the Marantz have some extra components as previously indicated.
Didn't express, imply, or suggest that you did.

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post #15 of 19 Old 07-21-2019, 05:50 PM - Thread Starter
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So it seems that given a comparable choice between the two brands......save some money and get the Denon.

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post #16 of 19 Old 07-21-2019, 06:09 PM
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I love them both Its kinda personal preference. Impossible to say one brand is better than the other.
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post #17 of 19 Old 07-22-2019, 04:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
That's because the X5200W was a higher level model. The Denon 4000 series and Marantz 7000 series have always been sister models, the X4200W being the sister model to the SR7009. The X5200W was a better built model with stronger amps, more features, and also mfr'd in Japan like the "flagship" models (as are the current 6000 models that replaced the X5200W).
let's not fight about minor details.
Denon and Marantz never declared which models are sisters and which are not. The 5200 doesn't fit into the naming/counting convention anyway. Based on the release date and feature set it should have been a 5100 (never released).
5200 and 7009 share the same features (i don't care about 4+1 composite and "only" 2 component video inputs at the 5200 compared to 3+1 composite but 3 component at the 7009)!
the 4200 can't be the sister since at came a year later, we need to look at the 4100 but that had just 9.1 pre-processing, even with external amps you can't run a 7.2.4 system like with 5200/7009. For me(!) 7009 and 5200 are the "sisters" since there is no other Denon model comparable to the 7009 and the 5200 has no additional features (i don't count 0.5dB more power also).

nevertheless, the real point is: D&M tried to place Marantz as a kind of "underdog" that days, obviously it worked
they didn't want the "small" SR7009 (though it was the AVR flagship) to be perceived "as good as Denon". Marantz is so proud of their HDAM but the word "HDAM" doesn't show up in any official announcement or press release for the 7009. You have to manually search for it within the technical specification and find a checkmark or yes. Then look at the AV7702 Pre, from the feature set exactly the same as the 7009 but without power amps and guess what? There the HDAM parts are highlighted several times even with an extra section within the product description.

THAT's the point! Simple marketing tricks...
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post #18 of 19 Old 07-22-2019, 04:08 AM
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the 4200 can't be the sister since at came a year later, we need to look at the 4100 but that had just 9.1 pre-processing, even with external amps you can't run a 7.2.4 system like with 5200/7009.
Oops! You are correct. The X4100W was the model released that year so then as the X5200W was the higher level model of the three, the model progression was:

X4100W (125W) ---> SR7009 (125W) ---> X5200W (140W w/better quality amps similar to the flagship model)
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post #19 of 19 Old 07-22-2019, 04:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Boombox13 View Post
So it seems that given a comparable choice between the two brands......save some money and get the Denon.
Correct, if 2CH music listening is not a priority and you don't have a SACD player that uses multi analog outputs.
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