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post #1 of 40 Old 07-21-2019, 09:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Looking for a amp-have questions/need suggestions

I got some 5.1 surround sound speakers in the great room that I plan to connect to a denon receiver.

Do I need to power them up to an external amp instead of the receiver to get better sound?
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post #2 of 40 Old 07-21-2019, 09:47 PM
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Nope.
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Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
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post #3 of 40 Old 07-22-2019, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Wong View Post
I got some 5.1 surround sound speakers in the great room that I plan to connect to a denon receiver.

Do I need to power them up to an external amp instead of the receiver to get better sound?
Generally not.

What speakers are you using?

Geoff A. J., California
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post #4 of 40 Old 07-22-2019, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Wong View Post
I got some 5.1 surround sound speakers in the great room that I plan to connect to a denon receiver. Do I need to power them up to an external amp instead of the receiver to get better sound?
Not necessarily. First of all, it depends how loud you are playing and if your receiver runs out of power. If we are talking about listening at normal levels, then changing amplifiers *may* sound better. Or might sound worse! I have a Denon receiver, AVR-1612, and really like how it sounds, because to me it doesn't sound like anything at all :-)
Anyway, before spending money on amplifiers to get "better sound" the SPEAKERS will make far more improvement.
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post #5 of 40 Old 07-22-2019, 01:00 PM
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Better, or a second, sub first. You didn't mention the sub part.
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post #6 of 40 Old 07-22-2019, 03:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gajCA View Post
Generally not.

What speakers are you using?
Using the D65/63 from Origin acoustics

specs are

impedance - 6Ohm
power handling - 25-140watts

how big of am amp do i need for the speakers?


These are in the great room (3 front) (2 Back)
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post #7 of 40 Old 07-22-2019, 03:34 PM - Thread Starter
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so when do people use the pre-outs of the receiver to an external amp? What purpose is that for?

I do have multi rooms with pair of speakers used for music
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post #8 of 40 Old 07-22-2019, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Wong View Post
Using the D65/63 from Origin acoustics

specs are

impedance - 6Ohm
power handling - 25-140watts

how big of am amp do i need for the speakers?


These are in the great room (3 front) (2 Back)
With a sensitivity rating of 91db you will be fine with running them off of your AVR.

My speakers are rated at 92db and I'm run them with the Denon X2400H (95W per ch.) in my 18.5' x 15.5' living room and they get plenty loud.

You didn't mention which Denon you are planning to use, but I'm certain that you're good to go.

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post #9 of 40 Old 07-22-2019, 04:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by head_unit View Post
Not necessarily. First of all, it depends how loud you are playing and if your receiver runs out of power. If we are talking about listening at normal levels, then changing amplifiers *may* sound better. Or might sound worse! I have a Denon receiver, AVR-1612, and really like how it sounds, because to me it doesn't sound like anything at all :-)
Anyway, before spending money on amplifiers to get "better sound" the SPEAKERS will make far more improvement.
+1 on the whole post, except for the bold part
A good power amp, just amplified the signal it receive. So the sound signature of the Denon, will remain the same.

While I do use separate with an AVP and two power amps. Speaker make the biggest difference, just as you mention.


Darth

Last edited by darthray; 07-22-2019 at 04:08 PM.
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post #10 of 40 Old 07-22-2019, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Wong View Post
so when do people use the pre-outs of the receiver to an external amp? What purpose is that for?

I do have multi rooms with pair of speakers used for music

My situation. Denon X4400H. Use a 2channel amp for the front L/R. Use a second 2channel amp for Zone2 on the Denon for way back in my main room. A third 2ch amp is for the front room (home office), Zone 3. There are four 10" subs in my main room btw. Can go from 2 channel listening to 15.4 whole house. Which Denon receiver are you referring too in your first post?
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post #11 of 40 Old 07-22-2019, 06:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Wong View Post
Using the D65/63 from Origin acoustics

specs are

impedance - 6Ohm
power handling - 25-140watts

how big of am amp do i need for the speakers?

These are in the great room (3 front) (2 Back)
If you don't have a sub, adding one and running your speakers on "small" would greatly ease any strain on your receiver, in addition to greatly improving your overall sound.

~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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post #12 of 40 Old 07-22-2019, 07:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d-rail34 View Post
With a sensitivity rating of 91db you will be fine with running them off of your AVR.

My speakers are rated at 92db and I'm run them with the Denon X2400H (95W per ch.) in my 18.5' x 15.5' living room and they get plenty loud.

You didn't mention which Denon you are planning to use, but I'm certain that you're good to go.


planning to get the denon 4500h.

or would marantz be better?
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post #13 of 40 Old 07-22-2019, 07:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Wong View Post
planning to get the denon 4500h.



or would marantz be better?

Same internals.

Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
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post #14 of 40 Old 07-22-2019, 08:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Wong View Post
planning to get the denon 4500h.

or would marantz be better?
Allegedly Marantz is said to have a warmer sound presentation.

The Denon X4500 has plenty of power to run a 5.1 setup on it's own. If you were running all 9 channels your power per channel would drop which may make an external amp more appealing. If you have 4 ohm speakers or cranking it up to 11 all the time, you may want to consider an external amp. For normal operation at reasonable volume levels, you'll be fine with the X4500.

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post #15 of 40 Old 07-22-2019, 09:27 PM - Thread Starter
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what about the 6500h?

Here is what I got


downstairs

1. great room (5.1 surround speakers)
2. Kitchen (2 speakers)
3. deck (2 speakers)

upstairs

1. loft (5.1 surround speakers)
2. master bedroom (2 spears)
3. masterbath (2 speakers)
4. deck (2 speakers)



for the great room and loft, I need louder better sound. They are all ceiling speakers

for master bedroom (TV and music listening)

for all others just music

what do I need to power all these up? 2 receivers?
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post #16 of 40 Old 07-22-2019, 09:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Wong View Post
I got some 5.1 surround sound speakers in the great room that I plan to connect to a denon receiver.

Do I need to power them up to an external amp instead of the receiver to get better sound?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Wong View Post
Using the D65/63 from Origin acoustics

specs are

impedance - 6Ohm
power handling - 25-140watts

how big of am amp do i need for the speakers?


These are in the great room (3 front) (2 Back)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Wong View Post
planning to get the denon 4500h.

or would marantz be better?
Those are $300 ea (retail) in-ceiling speakers generally available through custom installer channels. Their intended purpose is for distributed sound, not as main speakers in a home theatre. A primary design aim would be to maximise profits for the installer.

Honestly Tony, if you have no other option but to go in-ceiling (described as a common mistake), I recommend you cut your losses and only get a basic, non-Atmos AVR to run them (examples).

The very last thing you need to concern yourself with is an external amp.
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post #17 of 40 Old 07-22-2019, 09:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Wong View Post
planning to get the denon 4500h.

or would marantz be better?
flip a coin, the receiver makes piddly difference.

If you have all these speakers all over your house, many of them in-ceiling, but zero subwoofers, I think you're making a big mistake.

~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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post #18 of 40 Old 07-22-2019, 10:17 PM - Thread Starter
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I only got them for the great room.

how do i make a theatre sound or what i need to add?

prefer to keep as clean as possible
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post #19 of 40 Old 07-22-2019, 11:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Wong View Post
I only got them for the great room.

how do i make a theatre sound or what i need to add?

prefer to keep as clean as possible
Assuming the in-ceiling speakers are well placed, you could use 4 of them as your Atmos speakers (ignore the center channel). Then have in-wall or on-wall speakers for your 5 ear level speakers. Add a sub for a 5.1.4 set-up. You could use the zone outputs on the receiver to feed an external multi-channel amp that powers the speakers in the other rooms. Just get an amp with 2 channels per room (or more to allow for expansion / bridged output for those outdoor speakers).

Something like this: https://www.amazon.com/Dayton-Audio-...SIN=B003DKVZHQ

For higher quality, look at Parasound ZoneMaster products (powers up to 24(!) speakers).

Duplicate the set-up upstairs.
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It's a VIRTUAL channel unless stated otherwise.

Last edited by RayGuy; 07-22-2019 at 11:40 PM.
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post #20 of 40 Old 07-22-2019, 11:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Wong View Post
I only got them for the great room.

how do i make a theatre sound or what i need to add?

prefer to keep as clean as possible
Good quality in-wall or on-wall speakers and a capable sub (or two) to suit your total room volume and listening level expectations. Allocate most of your budget to these items.

A few quick speaker examples: PSB & Focal, Triad, KEF THX Certified.

Some reading on choosing a suitable sub for your room: Audioholics | Subwoofer Room Size Rating Protocol.
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post #21 of 40 Old 07-23-2019, 03:58 AM
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I also have a Triad Room Size Guide I can email you if you like.

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post #22 of 40 Old 07-23-2019, 06:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Wong View Post
I only got them for the great room.

how do i make a theatre sound or what i need to add?

prefer to keep as clean as possible


do I need the denon 6500 if I am only running 5.1 surround?
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post #23 of 40 Old 07-23-2019, 07:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Wong View Post
do I need the denon 6500 if I am only running 5.1 surround?
If you don't plan on expanding beyond 5.1/7.1, a Denon X3400/3500 will be plenty. You'll still get decent power, audyssey XT32 and pre-outs should yo want to add an amp later.
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post #24 of 40 Old 07-23-2019, 07:15 AM - Thread Starter
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maybe a 7.1 later. but if I can use the other channels for other rooms right?
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post #25 of 40 Old 07-23-2019, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Wong View Post
how do i make a theatre sound or what i need to add?
"Theatre sound" = subwoofer(s) + competent center channel + (distant 3rd) other speakers

No sub? Forget about it.
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~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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post #26 of 40 Old 07-23-2019, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Wong View Post
maybe a 7.1 later. but if I can use the other channels for other rooms right?
Yes but you are trying to chase theater like sound with in moderately priced in ceiling speakers and no sub.

Not going to happen.
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post #27 of 40 Old 07-23-2019, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Wong View Post
do I need the denon 6500 if I am only running 5.1 surround?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Wong View Post
planning to get the denon 4500h.

or would marantz be better?
1.) X4500 vs. X6500:

If I had the choice between these two, I would save the extra cash and get the X4500.

With the X4500, you get 9 amplified channels that can be used for 5.x/7.x + multi zone, or 5.x.4/7.x.2 Atmos configuration (if you're concidering this application at some point). Plus, it has built-in pre-amps to add a 2-channel amplifier to expand to 11 channels for 7.x.4 or 5.x.4 + multi zone. Basically it gives you options, and at a lower cost.

The X6500 has 11 dedicated channels. But, it does come with better internals (Made in Japan).


2.) Denon vs. Marantz:

Denon is generally preferred for HT use, whereas Marantz is designed to play better with music. The Marantz is said to give off a warmer tone due to it having the addition of HDAM (Hyper Dynamic Amplifier Module). It also has M-DAX (Marantz Dynamic Audio eXpander), which is for better sounding digital music playback (MP3, etc.).

That being said, they're both excellent AVR's.


As an aside, the Denon X4500/Marantz SR6013 have about the same price point, but the X4500 ouputs 125 WPC, whereas the SR6013 is 110 WPC. This really isn't that big of a deal, as we're only talking about 15 watts, and they both have the option to add the external 2 channel amplifier.

Crutchfield does have a great deal on the Marantz right now, so if you're considering this one, it's definitely worth looking into.


P.S., as @gajCA & @Zorba922 stated, you will definitely want to add a good sub/s to get the best experience from your movie viewing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Russdawg1 View Post
Same internals.
See #2 (I know...but for some people, it matters. )


Hope this helps,

Darrell

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Last edited by d-rail34; 07-23-2019 at 04:05 PM.
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post #28 of 40 Old 07-23-2019, 10:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by d-rail34 View Post
1.) X4500 vs. X6500:

If I had the choice between these two, I would save the extra cash and get the X4500.

With the X4500, you get 9 amplified channels that can be used for 5.x/7.x + multi zone, or 5.x.4/7.x.2 Atmos configuration (if you're concidering this application at some point). Plus, it has built-in pre-amps to add a 2-channel amplifier to expand to 11 channels for 7.x.4 or 5.x.4 + multi zone. Basically it gives you options, and at a lower cost.

The X6500 has 11 dedicated channels. But, it does come with better internals (Made in Japan).


2.) Denon vs. Marantz:

Denon is generally preferred for HT use, whereas Marantz is designed to play better with music. The Marantz is said to give off a warmer tone due to it having the addition of HDAM (Hyper Dynamic Amplifier Module). It also has M-DAX (Marantz Dynamic Audio eXpander), which is for better sounding digital music playback (MP3, etc.).

That being said, they're both excellent AVR's.


As an aside, the Denon X4500/Marantz SR6013 have about the same price point, but the X4500 ouputs 125 WPC, whereas the SR6013 is 110 WPC. This really isn't that big of a deal, as we're only talking about 15 watts, and they both have the option to add the external 2 channel amplifier.

Crutchfield does have a great deal on the Marantz right now, so if you're considering this one, it's definitely worth looking into.


P.S., as @gajCA & @Zorba922 stated, you will definitely want to add a good sub/s to get the best experience from your movie viewing.




See #2 (I know...but for some people, it matters. )


Hope this helps,

Darrell
what is good sub to use? how big?

my ceilings speakers

impedance
6ohm

power handling
140watts
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post #29 of 40 Old 07-24-2019, 08:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Wong View Post
what is good sub to use? how big?

my ceilings speakers

impedance
6ohm

power handling
140watts
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NOTE: WIRELESS TRANSMITTER INCLUDED

5 years 300watts =13w14h16d= 27 lbs 12" [23hz] $499 SVS SB1000, (extension from Sound & Vision)

5 years 500watts =13w16h21d= 50 lbs 10" [20hz] $500 MONOPRICE MONOLITH MTS10 THX

3 years 300watts =14w14h16d= 58 lbs* 12" [18hz] $539 RHYTHMIK L12

5 years 500watts =14w15h17d= 35 lbs 12" [19hz] $649 SVS SB2000 outlet, (extension from Sound & Vision)
* = shipping weight
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Geoff A. J., California
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post #30 of 40 Old 07-24-2019, 08:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Wong View Post
what is good sub to use? how big?
That all depends on one thing: How big is your space? We need cubic feet (width x length x height). Be sure to include ALL adjacent rooms that open up to your main listening area.
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~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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