Denon x3400h enough for JBL 5.1 towers? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 37 Old 08-12-2019, 06:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Denon x3400h enough for JBL 5.1 towers?

When I first bought my 590s I was told my receiver would be more than enough but I've since added 290s for surrounds and a 520c.

Is this receiver still plenty to push them?

I watched our most intense movie last night and we enjoy about -7db listening level which resulted in 83db max at the main listening position.

I keep getting conflicting reports that I'm crazy thinking my receiver can properly push my setup, so does anyone have any real facts and info I can use?
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post #2 of 37 Old 08-12-2019, 07:35 PM
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https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...iew-test-bench

The reduction in available power in going beyond 2 channels isn't bad. For home theater, the expectation is that you would rarely or never max out all channels simultaneously, anyway.

Trust your ears. If you aren't getting clipping or distortion at your loudest listening level, you don't need to let other people spend your money on additional amplifiers.
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post #3 of 37 Old 08-12-2019, 07:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bobknavs View Post
https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...iew-test-bench

The reduction in available power in going beyond 2 channels isn't bad. For home theater, the expectation is that you would rarely or never max out all channels simultaneously, anyway.

Trust your ears. If you aren't getting clipping or distortion at your loudest listening level, you don't need to let other people spend your money on additional amplifiers.
Sounds quite amazing to me! 😉 Of course it's easy to not know what you're missing and wonder.

Do the 5 channels not reserve power in full? Even full stereo music sounds great, I assume that's a full power test.
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post #4 of 37 Old 08-12-2019, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Majicpanda View Post
Sounds quite amazing to me! 😉 Of course it's easy to not know what you're missing and wonder.

Do the 5 channels not reserve power in full? Even full stereo music sounds great, I assume that's a full power test.
I believe that the amp channels are all identical. The limitation would be the power supply.

By "full stereo", do you mean multichannel stereo? I don't know whether all channels are driven identically. I have read claims that the surrounds are not driven as hard as the fronts for that.
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post #5 of 37 Old 08-12-2019, 08:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bobknavs View Post
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Originally Posted by Majicpanda View Post
Sounds quite amazing to me! 😉 Of course it's easy to not know what you're missing and wonder.

Do the 5 channels not reserve power in full? Even full stereo music sounds great, I assume that's a full power test.
I believe that the amp channels are all identical. The limitation would be the power supply.

By "full stereo", do you mean multichannel stereo? I don't know whether all channels are driven identically. I have read claims that the surrounds are not driven as hard as the fronts for that.
I'm mainly only concerned with movies but yes multi channel stereo just as a test for music.

Do you know how those numbers convert driving 6 ohm speakers? The front stage is 6 but the rears are 8. Really impressive power rating on 5 channels driven 97.6 wpc or 97.6 / 5?
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post #6 of 37 Old 08-12-2019, 09:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Majicpanda View Post
I'm mainly only concerned with movies but yes multi channel stereo just as a test for music.

Do you know how those numbers convert driving 6 ohm speakers? The front stage is 6 but the rears are 8. Really impressive power rating on 5 channels driven 97.6 wpc or 97.6 / 5?
6 ohms? I don't know, and don't know enough to extrapolate.

Every set of receiver specs I've seen have the AVR making more power in 2 channels at 6 ohms than for 8, though.
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post #7 of 37 Old 08-13-2019, 05:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Majicpanda View Post
I'm mainly only concerned with movies but yes multi channel stereo just as a test for music.

Do you know how those numbers convert driving 6 ohm speakers? The front stage is 6 but the rears are 8. Really impressive power rating on 5 channels driven 97.6 wpc or 97.6 / 5?
If movies are your main concern then you have little to worry about, as it is extremely rare for all channels to be firing at high volumes at the same time.
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post #8 of 37 Old 08-13-2019, 11:21 AM
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You are worrying needlessly. There are countless threads that will confirm for you that db levels uncomfortably loud you are only pushing several watts. Wattage/headroom is for transient peaks and the 3400 will not clip.

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post #9 of 37 Old 08-13-2019, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Majicpanda View Post
When I first bought my 590s I was told my receiver would be more than enough but I've since added 290s for surrounds and a 520c.

Is this receiver still plenty to push them?

I watched our most intense movie last night and we enjoy about -7db listening level which resulted in 83db max at the main listening position.

I keep getting conflicting reports that I'm crazy thinking my receiver can properly push my setup, so does anyone have any real facts and info I can use?
Are you running a sub(s) in your setup?

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post #10 of 37 Old 08-13-2019, 11:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Dargent0628 View Post
You are worrying needlessly. There are countless threads that will confirm for you that db levels uncomfortably loud you are only pushing several watts. Wattage/headroom is for transient peaks and the 3400 will not clip.

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I understand that the speakers will never really take more than say 10 watts (just rounding for simplicity since my receiver can handle 5x+ that) but at what point do you know it's producing absolutely clean power that an amp can? Is this just an old mentality that receivers cannot provide what an amp can?
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post #11 of 37 Old 08-13-2019, 11:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Are you running a sub(s) in your setup?
Yes a pos klipsch R10SW but hoping to get a VTF2/3 MK5 in the near future.
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post #12 of 37 Old 08-13-2019, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Majicpanda View Post
I understand that the speakers will never really take more than say 10 watts (just rounding for simplicity since my receiver can handle 5x+ that) but at what point do you know it's producing absolutely clean power that an amp can? Is this just an old mentality that receivers cannot provide what an amp can?


Its somewhat of an old mentality but separate power amplifiers can have much more robust powersupplies and are able to handle more current to drive difficult loads. This does not mean all separate power amplifiers are better then recievers, and especially at the lower price brakets they arent really any better than whats in the recievers themselves.

One or two good subs will usually give a sizeable boost to a system especially for movies.


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post #13 of 37 Old 08-13-2019, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Majicpanda View Post
Yes a pos klipsch R10SW but hoping to get a VTF2/3 MK5 in the near future.
A sub crossed over at 80hz takes a huge load off the AVR. The HSU sub will be a significant upgrade.

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A sub crossed over at 80hz takes a huge load off the AVR. The HSU sub will be a significant upgrade.
I feel like my 590s may have sounded better set to small and crossed at 80, but that is essentially just wasting the entire setup at that point is it not? They should be set to full range and properly amplified? I just tried out full range on my 590s and rear 290s and I'm getting a lot more mids, but when fully cranked I'm not sure I'm hearing clean audio... just a lot MORE audio.
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post #15 of 37 Old 08-13-2019, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Majicpanda View Post
I understand that the speakers will never really take more than say 10 watts (just rounding for simplicity since my receiver can handle 5x+ that) but at what point do you know it's producing absolutely clean power that an amp can? Is this just an old mentality that receivers cannot provide what an amp can?
When you hear clipping, heavy distortion or the AVR goes into protection mode turn it down right away. The sound is unmistakable, believe me you'll know.

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post #16 of 37 Old 08-13-2019, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Majicpanda View Post
I feel like my 590s may have sounded better set to small and crossed at 80, but that is essentially just wasting the entire setup at that point is it not? They should be set to full range and properly amplified? I just tried out full range on my 590s and rear 290s and I'm getting a lot more mids, but when fully cranked I'm not sure I'm hearing clean audio... just a lot MORE audio.
Your sub may be underpowered for the room. Room size and placement have a huge impact on the sub's effectiveness. A good sub like HSU can play the low end a lot more cleanly and efficiently than most towers. Of course proper placement and setup are critical to getting the most out of your sub.

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post #17 of 37 Old 08-13-2019, 12:16 PM - Thread Starter
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When you hear clipping, heavy distortion or the AVR goes into protection mode turn it down right away. The sound is unmistakable, believe me you'll know.
Is there really no such thing as getting better imaging or sound stage with an amp vs what I have now then? I can't say I've ever heard distortion and I've listened to movies at 0db reference on the AVR which produces up to a max of 90db at the listening position during some scenes. Sounds like even if I thought I could get better sound from my 590s it would cost $500+ for a high quality one so this discussion appears over, thanks That money is better off going into a new sub which is all the upgrades I can afford this year.
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post #18 of 37 Old 08-13-2019, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Majicpanda View Post
I feel like my 590s may have sounded better set to small and crossed at 80, but that is essentially just wasting the entire setup at that point is it not? They should be set to full range and properly amplified? I just tried out full range on my 590s and rear 290s and I'm getting a lot more mids, but when fully cranked I'm not sure I'm hearing clean audio... just a lot MORE audio.


They arent full range speakers, almost no tower speakers are. With a -3db at 35hz or so a crossover at 80 sounds like a good choice, you can play around with it a little and try 60hz also to check.
For 2ch music you may prefer running in direct/pure direct mode and that ignores crossover settings so running speakers full range. But whats better, stereo with crossover to sub or not depends on a lot of different things like your taste, source music, room, how well sub and speakers are set up, mood and so on so just try both some.


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post #19 of 37 Old 08-13-2019, 12:26 PM - Thread Starter
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They arent full range speakers, almost no tower speakers are. With a -3db at 35hz or so a crossover at 80 sounds like a good choice, you can play around with it a little and try 60hz also to check.
For 2ch music you may prefer running in direct/pure direct mode and that ignores crossover settings so running speakers full range. But whats better, stereo with crossover to sub or not depends on a lot of different things like your taste, source music, room, how well sub and speakers are set up, mood and so on so just try both some.


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I get such conflicting info like being slammed for running the 590s crossed at all and on small but I really feel they sounded much better as small and crossed at 80. I am 99% Movies so that's the only thing that matters to me for configuration.

My small 10" sub I feel is set up in the ideal position and provides nice coverage but what I do feel like I lack is more midrange when I use small crossed at 80 vs Full Range. Is this possibly a simple tweak of changing the crossover to 60hz instead?
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post #20 of 37 Old 08-13-2019, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Majicpanda View Post
Is there really no such thing as getting better imaging or sound stage with an amp vs what I have now then? I can't say I've ever heard distortion and I've listened to movies at 0db reference on the AVR which produces up to a max of 90db at the listening position during some scenes. Sounds like even if I thought I could get better sound from my 590s it would cost $500+ for a high quality one so this discussion appears over, thanks That money is better off going into a new sub which is all the upgrades I can afford this year.
I never suggested getting an amp. Go for the VTF-3 if you can swing it. You'll be amazed how much depth it'll add to your setup. If you think you like your setup now, wait till you add a sub of that caliber.

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post #21 of 37 Old 08-13-2019, 12:31 PM - Thread Starter
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I never suggested getting an amp. Go for the VTF-3 if you can swing it. You'll be amazed how much depth it'll add to your setup. If you think you like your setup now, wait till you add a sub of that caliber.
Sorry meant the entire discussion "I" started with myself today before I posted here

I've gone back and forth trying to save for the VTF3 and can't seem to muster the cash so I keep debating on getting a VTF2.... I'm not sure how inferior it is but my current sub only goes down to 32hz and is 150w continuous so it surely would devour it. I keep holding off due to FOMO on the VTF3 if I got the 2 and having 17x15x8 space to fill with open concept into a kitchen and hallway.
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post #22 of 37 Old 08-13-2019, 12:38 PM
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I get such conflicting info like being slammed for running the 590s crossed at all and on small but I really feel they sounded much better as small and crossed at 80. I am 99% Movies so that's the only thing that matters to me for configuration.



My small 10" sub I feel is set up in the ideal position and provides nice coverage but what I do feel like I lack is more midrange when I use small crossed at 80 vs Full Range. Is this possibly a simple tweak of changing the crossover to 60hz instead?


Its probably the limited sub that makes you feel that way and a new sub is both much better and way cheaper then getting the amp needed to have dual 8s perform to their absolute max.
(Personal experience: i used to have Infinity kappa 80 speakers (these were known to be very difficult) with dual 8 woofers and to get them to really shine i needed to bi amp them with a parasound 2205 (5x250+w), an amp that at Full new price would have been three times more expensive then the speakers themselves.)


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post #23 of 37 Old 08-13-2019, 12:41 PM
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Just to note on my last post, this was for music. For movies the sub did the heavy lifting.


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post #24 of 37 Old 08-13-2019, 12:55 PM
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Sorry meant the entire discussion "I" started with myself today before I posted here

I've gone back and forth trying to save for the VTF3 and can't seem to muster the cash so I keep debating on getting a VTF2.... I'm not sure how inferior it is but my current sub only goes down to 32hz and is 150w continuous so it surely would devour it. I keep holding off due to FOMO on the VTF3 if I got the 2 and having 17x15x8 space to fill with open concept into a kitchen and hallway.
Subs see the entire space so you need to factor in the entire open space. I recommend posting in the subwoofer forum so the others can chime in. They have much more knowledge and experience than I do.

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post #25 of 37 Old 08-13-2019, 01:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Subs see the entire space so you need to factor in the entire open space. I recommend posting in the subwoofer forum so the others can chime in. They have much more knowledge and experience than I do.
Oh man you don't wanna go in there... there's no such thing as big enough Really though my heart tells me a VTF2 would not be "sufficient" for the space but then again neither is my 10" reference Klipsch pos I'm using and it produces some quality bass for what it is. I'll figure it out.. lol. Thanks again for all the opinions.. I think I'm going to move back to small and crossed instead of over feeding the towers.
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I feel like my 590s may have sounded better set to small and crossed at 80, but that is essentially just wasting the entire setup at that point is it not?
IMO, you're not "wasting the entire setup" if it sounds better to your ears when it's crossed over. There is no one single correct way to do it since there are so many variables, as others already pointed out. Do what sounds best to YOU.

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post #27 of 37 Old 08-13-2019, 01:34 PM
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@Majicpanda Yes I think 80hz and "small" will be good, especially with a large sub. As @Pete7874 said, whatever sounds best to you though.

I have a similar sized living room theater but my ceilings are 11ft. I am building dual jbl 1214 coffee tables because I had that same reference Klipsch sub for about a month. It was awesome in my room but it only sounded good in one very specific spot on a small platform near my front left speaker. It was just not reasonable so my next best solution is dual subs in the corners to help even the room out. So for you, the vtf2 only goes to about 25hz but the vtf3 goes to 18hz with authority, so that is a better solution.

Now if you are on a budget (like me) and can build subs, then there are tons of options of all shapes and sizes to make sure your room is filled. As @pase22 said, that large space will suck up bass so you need something that goes to 20hz with a smile. Start here! https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/
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post #28 of 37 Old 08-14-2019, 07:36 AM
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Oh man you don't wanna go in there... there's no such thing as big enough Really though my heart tells me a VTF2 would not be "sufficient" for the space but then again neither is my 10" reference Klipsch pos I'm using and it produces some quality bass for what it is. I'll figure it out.. lol. Thanks again for all the opinions.. I think I'm going to move back to small and crossed instead of over feeding the towers.
With such a large open space, Dual VTF-2's would be your best option. Though not the cheapest options the VTF-2's will easily get below 20hz. You can start with one and add a 2nd later if a single isn't enough. If the bass gets lost, just place the sub nearfield until you can add the 2nd or get a VTF-3.

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post #29 of 37 Old 08-15-2019, 09:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Leeliemix View Post
Its probably the limited sub that makes you feel that way and a new sub is both much better and way cheaper then getting the amp needed to have dual 8s perform to their absolute max.
(Personal experience: i used to have Infinity kappa 80 speakers (these were known to be very difficult) with dual 8 woofers and to get them to really shine i needed to bi amp them with a parasound 2205 (5x250+w), an amp that at Full new price would have been three times more expensive then the speakers themselves.)


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Thank you for this response it added a lot to my opinions of advice I'm getting. If you have a proper sub and infinite money are you still supposed to amp towers and run them full range? I feel like people with full amp setups still cross them over is that not accurate?
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post #30 of 37 Old 08-15-2019, 10:26 AM
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Thank you for this response it added a lot to my opinions of advice I'm getting. If you have a proper sub and infinite money are you still supposed to amp towers and run them full range? I feel like people with full amp setups still cross them over is that not accurate?


Amps matter for more then just going deep cleanly and yes almost all speakers need help at the bottom end but for music its often not needed with speakers that do well under 30hz since very little music has anything down there. That said infinite money buys really nice speakers and subs and people who can get them to play very well together.
I do not by any means have an infinite money system but my main speakers(audio physic scorpio 25, parasound a31 amp) have a -3db at 27hz. For movies i cross them at 60hz and for music i vary a little between using subs and not. My subs are not very optimally placed yet so whats best varies. For movies i dont use direct modes and just let the subs do their own job and help out the rest of the speakers also.


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