JBL Synthesis SDP-55 (16ch, 9.1.6 Atmos Surround Sound Processor) - Page 61 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 1527Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1801 of 1912 Old 05-22-2020, 10:28 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Krobar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,437
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 334 Post(s)
Liked: 236
Quote:
Originally Posted by kanomete View Post
To the SDP-55 Owners:

Is the SDP-55 platform stable now with fw1.28 or does it have a lot of issues still?

Whats are the biggest problems/challenges?

Can you define the "sonic signature" of the SDP-55...is it warm?....neutral?...other?

Thank you in advance for your feedback.
There are still issues I would consider problematic; the biggest of which is Dirac not applying to the center channel when using Atmos content and Dirac not applying to one back or surround channel in a lot of cases. I suspect this will be fixed soon and I don't know of any other major bugs. The firmware is improving quite quickly.
boblinds and avkv like this.
Krobar is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #1802 of 1912 Old 05-22-2020, 11:02 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Jsin_N's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,118
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 672 Post(s)
Liked: 374
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krobar View Post
There are still issues I would consider problematic; the biggest of which is Dirac not applying to the center channel when using Atmos content and Dirac not applying to one back or surround channel in a lot of cases. I suspect this will be fixed soon and I don't know of any other major bugs. The firmware is improving quite quickly.
There's something with the analog input as well.

L16 and BC still unreleased.
Jsin_N is offline  
post #1803 of 1912 Old 05-22-2020, 09:28 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
boblinds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,063
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 84 Post(s)
Liked: 184
Quote:
Can you define the "sonic signature" of the SDP-55...is it warm?....neutral?...other?
More detailed than the Denon or Marantz "house sound" and warmer (less edgy) than the Onkyo "house sound," along with surround sound decoding that is superior to all. With my JBL speakers, I find it to be a very honest and satisfying aural balance; plus, it has, to my ears, a solid but not overpowering low end. Tight, realistic bass that doesn't "muffin top" all over the place.

As Jason and Krobar point out, the firmware is still unfinished and has some outstanding issues, particularly where Dirac room correction is concerned. If you distrust JBL/Arcam's ability to resolve those issues, I'd say wait and see. However, even in its current incomplete state, I find that it offers a very satisfying, even seductive, AV experience for both music and movies.
avkv, Dr_Mark, MUDCAT45 and 1 others like this.
boblinds is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #1804 of 1912 Old 05-23-2020, 04:32 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
theblackangus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Des Moines, Iowa
Posts: 1,107
Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 671 Post(s)
Liked: 418
Since I cant modify the main page, Ill bring this forward.
This is the list of things I complied for issues/features since the latest firmware was released from items people posted in this thread:
As always - Please help me correct/add any info here


Things still waiting on implementation:
Dirac Bass Control
DTS:X Pro
Logic 16 (Still in development)

Future Upgrades:
HDMI 2.1 (unclear if this was actually promised or just said was possible but undecided)

Things still broken:
Auro 2D or 3D mode is much lower than when played in stereo or 16ch stereo
Abilitiy to play a DTS CD and get sound
Auro Native - The less common Auro 13.1 and Auro 11.1 (7+4) formats do not work.
3D: OSD missing grey background in 3D and 3D 1080P reported as 1920*2205 (3D itself works fine)
DD+ 1.5mbit (AKA Universal HDDVD) via Kodi does not work - All other DD+ issues I previously had have been fixed
Dirac with 24/88+ Audio and DTS processing modes does not work - Other have reported this issue
No analogue audio working in main zone with V1.28 - This works for most people and does not really effect me as I only really use analogue in Z2 where it is fine.
Corrupted OSD - If I programmatically start my TV and the AV40 at the same time the OSD corrupts - Adding a 1.5 second delay to starting the AV40 fixes this completely.


Dirac:
Enable dirac,play Atmos,the center channel lost dirac
Enable dirac,left and right surround and right back surround modification delay is invalid
Enable dirac,the sky speakers and front speakers have a significant delay difference
Enable dirac, modify the delay of the left front sky channel will affect the delay of other channels
Enable dirac, it often causes popping sounds

Theater: 2x JTR 215 RT's, 1x 215 RM, 10x JTR S8's, 2x UXL-18 GSG Full Martys, Onkyo NR3002, D-Sonic 7 Channel, 3x Inuke 6000DSPs, Oppo-203, HTPC, Roku Ultra, Harmony Elite, JVC NX-7
Second System: Philharmonitors AA, UXL-18 Mini-Marty, Denon X1300, Sony X700 UHD Player, Harmony, Vizio P65-E (This setup to be upgraded this year)

Last edited by theblackangus; 05-23-2020 at 06:09 AM.
theblackangus is offline  
post #1805 of 1912 Old 05-23-2020, 05:07 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Sweden
Posts: 206
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 123 Post(s)
Liked: 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by theblackangus View Post
Since I cant modify the main page, Ill bring this forward.
This is the list of things I complied for issues/features since the latest firmware was released from items people posted in this thread:
As always - Please help me correct/add any info here


Things still waiting on implementation:
Dirac Bass Control
DTS:X Pro
Logic 16 (Still in development)

Future Upgrades:
HDMI 2.1 (unclear if this was actually promised or just said was possible but undecided)

Things still broken:
Analogue inputs broken in main zone (Still work in Z2)
Auro 2D or 3D mode is much lower than when played in stereo or 16ch stereo
Abiltiy to play a DTS CD and get sound
Auro Native - The less common Auro 13.1 and Auro 11.1 (7+4) formats do not work.
3D: OSD missing grey background in 3D and 3D 1080P reported as 1920*2205 (3D itself works fine)
DD+ 1.5mbit (AKA Universal HDDVD) via Kodi does not work - All other DD+ issues I previously had have been fixed
Dirac with 24/88+ Audio and DTS processing modes does not work - Other have reported this issue
No analogue audio working in main zone with V1.28 - This works for most people and does not really effect me as I only really use analogue in Z2 where it is fine.
Corrupted OSD - If I programmatically start my TV and the AV40 at the same time the OSD corrupts - Adding a 1.5 second delay to starting the AV40 fixes this completely.


Dirac:
Enable dirac,play Atmos,the center channel lost dirac
Enable dirac,left and right surround and right back surround modification delay is invalid
Enable dirac,the sky speakers and front speakers have a significant delay difference
Enable dirac, modify the delay of the left front sky channel will affect the delay of other channels
Enable dirac, it often causes popping sounds
Why is it so that receivers and processors are so often broken and simply doesn’t work yet costs a huge amount of money?

TVs and projectors works almost perfectly right out the box


Is it harder to get audio right or is it just that it is such a niche marked and the amount resources put into these products is Extremely small compared to display units?

I’m sitting an a new AVR20 and I’m scared to update it. Now I just found out that a new USB 3.1 won’t work. How is this possible? This is 2020! The AVR costs a fortune!

Living Room: Marantz SR7012 - KEF LS50 - SVS SB16 Ultra - HECO On wall - LG C8
HT: Epson 6050UB - 120 inch Elite Screen - ARCAM AVR20 - Klipsch RC-64 III - DIY Towers with KEF LS50 UniQ drivers and SB Acoustics Satori 9,5' - SVS PC13 Ultra - SVS Prime Elevation - ELAC WS1445
AVTimme is online now  
post #1806 of 1912 Old 05-23-2020, 05:27 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
theblackangus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Des Moines, Iowa
Posts: 1,107
Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 671 Post(s)
Liked: 418
Quote:
Originally Posted by AVTimme View Post
Why is it so that receivers and processors are so often broken and simply doesn’t work yet costs a huge amount of money?

TVs and projectors works almost perfectly right out the box

Is it harder to get audio right or is it just that it is such a niche marked and the amount resources put into these products is Extremely small compared to display units?

I’m sitting an a new AVR20 and I’m scared to update it. Now I just found out that a new USB 3.1 won’t work. How is this possible? This is 2020! The AVR costs a fortune!
So while I do agree, and hate how electronic and software have moved to a "push a product out at all costs" model, I'll say a few things from the opposite perspective.

1. Processors are likely the most complex part of the home theater experience.(Audio and video from so many different sources, so many formats to ensure functionality for, complex items like room correction, so many configurations to test from an output standpoint, etc)
2. Many TV's and Projectors over the past few years have had some significant bugs on release, some of which took over 6 months to fix.
3. As TV's take on more functionality they will likely start showing more bugs (Which is why I think TV's should be dumb displays, leave the streaming to a device that can be easily upgraded)
4. As you stated smaller market means less $$$ for development/testing.

While this list may look long, they actually fixed alot of stuff pretty quickly compared to some other vendors. And with a brand like JBL I'd bet they won't leave these things hanging as they want to preserve their Brand Cache for JBL.
And alot of those bugs are minor from the aspect of not impacting all functionality.
avkv and jlemoine2 like this.

Theater: 2x JTR 215 RT's, 1x 215 RM, 10x JTR S8's, 2x UXL-18 GSG Full Martys, Onkyo NR3002, D-Sonic 7 Channel, 3x Inuke 6000DSPs, Oppo-203, HTPC, Roku Ultra, Harmony Elite, JVC NX-7
Second System: Philharmonitors AA, UXL-18 Mini-Marty, Denon X1300, Sony X700 UHD Player, Harmony, Vizio P65-E (This setup to be upgraded this year)

Last edited by theblackangus; 05-23-2020 at 06:07 AM.
theblackangus is offline  
post #1807 of 1912 Old 05-23-2020, 07:49 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Sweden
Posts: 206
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 123 Post(s)
Liked: 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by theblackangus View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by AVTimme View Post
Why is it so that receivers and processors are so often broken and simply doesn’️t work yet costs a huge amount of money?

TVs and projectors works almost perfectly right out the box

Is it harder to get audio right or is it just that it is such a niche marked and the amount resources put into these products is Extremely small compared to display units?

I’️m sitting an a new AVR20 and I’️m scared to update it. Now I just found out that a new USB 3.1 won’️t work. How is this possible? This is 2020! The AVR costs a fortune!
So while I do agree, and hate how electronic and software have moved to a "push a product out at all costs" model, I'll say a few things from the opposite perspective.

1. Processors are likely the most complex part of the home theater experience.(Audio and video from so many different sources, so many formats to ensure functionality for, complex items like room correction, so many configurations to test from an output standpoint, etc)
2. Many TV's and Projectors over the past few years have had some significant bugs on release, some of which took over 6 months to fix.
3. As TV's take on more functionality they will likely start showing more bugs (Which is why I think TV's should be dumb displays, leave the streaming to a device that can be easily upgraded)
4. As you stated smaller market means less $$$ for development/testing.

While this list may look long, they actually fixed alot of stuff pretty quickly compared to some other vendors. And with a brand like JBL I'd bet they won't leave these things hanging as they want to preserve their Brand Cache for JBL.
And alot of those bugs are minor from the aspect of not impacting all functionality.
Great post! I agree!

Living Room: Marantz SR7012 - KEF LS50 - SVS SB16 Ultra - HECO On wall - LG C8
HT: Epson 6050UB - 120 inch Elite Screen - ARCAM AVR20 - Klipsch RC-64 III - DIY Towers with KEF LS50 UniQ drivers and SB Acoustics Satori 9,5' - SVS PC13 Ultra - SVS Prime Elevation - ELAC WS1445
AVTimme is online now  
post #1808 of 1912 Old 05-23-2020, 09:14 AM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 8
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 7
I've been monitoring this thread for a while and understand the frustration with JBL and others releasing their product with so many bugs. I'll offer some thoughts on this topic from my own experience.

There are different strategies for releasing hardware w/ firmware and releasing software-only products.

With hardware, there can be a significant lead time to getting that hardware through a production run and delivered to various distribution centers around the globe. This is not a fast process and must be planned out well in advance. Sourcing for every chip, circuit board, and connector must be carefully coordinated across several, if not dozens, of manufacturers. To line up all of the hardware parties to finally integrate into your product can literally take a year. Firmware for the same product is in relative infancy development-wise when these schedules are decided.

Once the hardware is manufactured, packaged, and distributed, a significant amount of money has been spent. Now the hardware sits there in warehouses doing nothing but taking up space. Space costs money....a lot of money. At that time there is significant pressure to get the product moving into the hands of consumers since potential profit margins are being eaten away.

If hardware manufacturing is held off until confirmation that firmware is complete (this would be a stupid move in my mind given the lead times), then they may miss their window in the manufacturing process, which is likely assembled by a third-party that serves dozens of other similar businesses and not just JBL.

Depending on the product there can be a lot of decisions that go into a projected release date. When is the competition releasing, consumer show schedules, consumer purchasing cycles, holiday seasons, etc. Missing one of these windows can be catastrophic for overall sales whether there are bugs or not. For example, delaying a product release from January to June can ruin sales volume because sales may drop off in the summer months when people are outside more and not upgrading their AV equipment (this is just an example and I don't know if it's true).

If "Competitor A" releases a buggy product in January, but JBL holds off until June to address bugs, then the competitor has the advantage. Consumers buy "Competitor A" product because they have the hot feature list and JBL is late. People are upset because the product has issues. Most folks won't return the product or opt to wait because JBL has not released, so there is no choice but to wait for the bugs to be addressed. Over the next several months, those bugs get fixed and consumers slowly become happy with their product.

During this cycle with Competitor A, JBL has not sold a single unit while they wait to release a stable product. When they finally do release a significant number of potential buyers have gone somewhere else because the sales window was missed. A moral victory on a higher-quality product at release won't matter if profits have been eroded by storage costs or units don't move because many buyers went with the competition.

So, with all of that, JBL can simply make more money and ensure market-share by getting the product out on-time, rather than waiting for the firmware to be bug-free. People will still get some enjoyment out of the processor despite the annoying issues... all depends on the use cases, which is apparent from reading this thread. Huge issues for a minor group of people may not apply to the masses.

Others have made comments that a smaller market for these high-end products can translate to less overall dollars for development and testing. I disagree. While I have not worked at an AV company, I have worked with small-volume high-dollar products and can say there is a significant investment in these features because they tend to eventually trickle down to the high-volume (lower-end) product lines.

Then there are challenges in the firmware development process when integrating with third parties. It's possible some of these issues described above are not the fault of JBL necessarily, but joint-integration issues with Dirac or the firmware from a third-party chipset. A priority for JBL may not be the priority for the third-party. I doubt JBL does it all in-house.

Going through full regression testing of features is impractical with every firmware build. When timelines become tight they probably resort to the 80/20 rule to ensure the most common features are working and they'll sort out the rest later. Also, my experience tells me that with every six bugs fixed, one more is introduced (varies by industry). The test that would have caught that bug may have passed with a previous firmware build may and not be executed again before release.

Based on my hardware days, I imagine most of the people involved in the development of the SDP-55 have already moved on to the development of the next product. The people correcting these firmware bugs may not even be the same ones that developed the code in the first place. If they are the same developers, keep in mind they are now spending time fixing issues of a released product and falling behind in the dev of the next great thing.... the cycle continues.

These days, I don't know if hardware product development includes retrospectives to review the good/bad/ugly of a release so they can learn for future products. They should. This is common in software development and done constantly.

In the end, sales volume dictates the success of the SDP-55, not the number of bugs.

I made numerous references to JBL above. I would like to make clear I have no inside info to JBL or any AV company for that matter. This is a JBL thread and I only wanted to give insight from my experience having worked with similar challenges that likely apply here.
noah katz, boblinds, avkv and 2 others like this.

Last edited by jlemoine2; 05-23-2020 at 09:25 AM.
jlemoine2 is offline  
post #1809 of 1912 Old 05-23-2020, 10:33 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
theblackangus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Des Moines, Iowa
Posts: 1,107
Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 671 Post(s)
Liked: 418
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlemoine2 View Post
I've been monitoring this thread for a while and understand the frustration with JBL and others releasing their product with so many bugs. I'll offer some thoughts on this topic from my own experience.
...
That certainly is the mind set, but people tend not to buy high dollar products that don't work - or return them immediately when they don't and never go back.
Worse that leaves a bad impression about the company and people then tend to not buy their products again.
Many of these companies in particular don't have significantly lower cost high volume products for trickle down, and from hearing about some of these companies development they only have a small team of developers (less than 10) for these products. I would bet Roku has a bigger team (tho I really have no idea, just kind of a reference to a high volume low cost product).

While I don't disagree with much of what you have said, people expect the expensive products they buy to work correctly 99% of the time. These are not Roku's where I may be ok with throwing away 100$ because something I purchased works poorly.

You wouldn't accept this from a car, and neither should anyone accept this from a multi-thousand dollar device.
Would you be ok with your iphone dropping calls/texts 1/2 the time? No. (Well some would but that's insane)

I'm going to sound like an a$$ for a second here and its not directed at you.
From a consumer standpoint - I don't care one bit about all the challenges you outlined, if you can't deliver a working product out of the gate it shouldn't be released.
Sure there will be small bugs, but these products were released with big major functionality impacting bugs.

There have been many people on here who decided to buy something else because they wanted something that just worked, and not something that might work someday. Sure there are also alot of people waiting patiently to see if these get to 99% functional, but people will only wait so long.

Whats the old adage? Fool me once and its your fault, fool me twice and its my fault. Consumers should take that to heart, I know I do.
If someone sells me a buggy product they have generally lost future sales to me because they lost my trust. That lowers sales volume.
Additionally when that happens I would never recommend a product like that to anyone else, again lowering sales volume more than just the small initial customer base impacted. Reputation is huge in the luxury item markets and if you destroy that you are done.

Theater: 2x JTR 215 RT's, 1x 215 RM, 10x JTR S8's, 2x UXL-18 GSG Full Martys, Onkyo NR3002, D-Sonic 7 Channel, 3x Inuke 6000DSPs, Oppo-203, HTPC, Roku Ultra, Harmony Elite, JVC NX-7
Second System: Philharmonitors AA, UXL-18 Mini-Marty, Denon X1300, Sony X700 UHD Player, Harmony, Vizio P65-E (This setup to be upgraded this year)

Last edited by theblackangus; 05-23-2020 at 10:38 AM.
theblackangus is offline  
post #1810 of 1912 Old 05-23-2020, 10:36 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
M Code's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Cotati, CA
Posts: 12,016
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1166 Post(s)
Liked: 760
Not rocket science...
Releasing buggy software is a result of not having adequate debugging/validation/certification teams in place. Software has 000s' lines of code, change 1line and something else may fall out, sometimes the errors are minor and recoverable, while others are major.. Takes several weeks to validate software revs, and unless JBL (Arcam) have the supporting resources in place and allow enough time to deliver the changes bugs will show up... The basic JBL processor hardware wise is incredible but without robust, solid software it has limited value..

Just my $0.02...
theblackangus likes this.
M Code is online now  
post #1811 of 1912 Old 05-23-2020, 10:51 AM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 8
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 7
Quote:
Originally Posted by theblackangus View Post
That certainly is the mind set, but people tend not to buy high dollar products that don't work - or return them immediately when they don't and never go back.
Worse that leaves a bad impression about the company and people then tend to not buy their products again.
Many of these companies in particular don't have significantly lower cost high volume products for trickle down, and from hearing about some of these companies development they only have a small team of developers (less than 10) for these products. I would bet Roku has a bigger team (tho I really have no idea, just kind of a reference to a high volume low cost product).

While I don't disagree with much of what you have said, people expect the expensive products they buy to work correctly 99% of the time. These are not Roku's where I may be ok with throwing away 100$ because something I purchased works poorly.

You wouldn't accept this from a car, and neither should anyone accept this from a multi-thousand dollar device.
Would you be ok with your iphone dropping calls/texts 1/2 the time? No. (Well some would but that's insane)

I'm going to sound like an a$$ for a second here and its not directed at you.
From a consumer standpoint - I don't care one bit about all the challenges you outlined, if you can't deliver a working product out of the gate it shouldn't be released.
Sure there will be small bugs, but these products were released with big major functionality impacting bugs.

There have been many people on here who decided to buy something else because they wanted something that just worked, and not something that might work someday. Sure there are also alot of people waiting patiently to see if these get to 99% functional, but people will only wait so long.

Whats the old adage? Fool me once and its your fault, fool me twice and its my fault. Consumers should take that to heart, I know I do.
If someone sells me a buggy product they have generally lost future sales to me because they lost my trust. That lowers sales volume.
Additionally when that happens I would never recommend a product like that to anyone else, again lowering sales volume more than just the small initial customer base impacted. Reputation is huge in the luxury item markets and if you destroy that you are done.
Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post
Not rocket science...
Releasing buggy software is a result of not having adequate debugging/validation/certification teams in place. Software has 000s' lines of code, change 1line and something else may fall out, sometimes the errors are minor and recoverable, while others are major.. Takes several weeks to validate software revs, and unless JBL (Arcam) have the supporting resources in place and allow enough time to deliver the changes bugs will show up... The basic JBL processor hardware wise is incredible but without robust, solid software it has limited value..

Just my $0.02...
I agree with both of you, which is why I have not purchased the device yet. I was simply offering the complexities to the process to convey that it's not as easy or simple as some make it seem. Because I've been involved in such things, I tend not to be an early adopter and wait for the bulk of issues to be sorted out before I dive-in.... but I also have the added "benefit" of my own theater falling behind in its production schedule. Ha!
Molon_Labe likes this.
jlemoine2 is offline  
post #1812 of 1912 Old 05-23-2020, 11:06 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
theblackangus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Des Moines, Iowa
Posts: 1,107
Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 671 Post(s)
Liked: 418
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlemoine2 View Post
...but I also have the added "benefit" of my own theater falling behind in its production schedule. Ha!
Oh so with ya there!
tjambro likes this.

Theater: 2x JTR 215 RT's, 1x 215 RM, 10x JTR S8's, 2x UXL-18 GSG Full Martys, Onkyo NR3002, D-Sonic 7 Channel, 3x Inuke 6000DSPs, Oppo-203, HTPC, Roku Ultra, Harmony Elite, JVC NX-7
Second System: Philharmonitors AA, UXL-18 Mini-Marty, Denon X1300, Sony X700 UHD Player, Harmony, Vizio P65-E (This setup to be upgraded this year)
theblackangus is offline  
post #1813 of 1912 Old 05-23-2020, 12:12 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Molon_Labe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,405
Mentioned: 112 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3608 Post(s)
Liked: 4425
Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post
The basic JBL processor hardware wise is incredible
Is it? I used to be a believer but after reading the ASR review, I have serious reservations. Sadly, my Lexicon MC-10 probably measures poorly considering no Arcam to date have measured well. As a long-time owner and advocate of Harman products, the software bugs combined with the recent ASR hardware review has led me to an end of the road scenario of buying into their marketing hype and blind, brand loyalty. Since Arcam and Synthesis are part of the the Harman Luxury Audio Group, it is my hope they reach out to Amir in an effort at minimum to validate his findings and ideally correct the deficiencies. Either way, I was planning on owning the SDP-55 once the bugs were sorted. As of now, that is off the table.
Molon_Labe is offline  
post #1814 of 1912 Old 05-23-2020, 01:20 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
MUDCAT45's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,229
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 727 Post(s)
Liked: 480
Quote:
Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
Is it? I used to be a believer but after reading the ASR review, I have serious reservations. Sadly, my Lexicon MC-10 probably measures poorly considering no Arcam to date have measured well. As a long-time owner and advocate of Harman products, the software bugs combined with the recent ASR hardware review has led me to an end of the road scenario of buying into their marketing hype and blind, brand loyalty. Since Arcam and Synthesis are part of the the Harman Luxury Audio Group, it is my hope they reach out to Amir in an effort at minimum to validate his findings and ideally correct the deficiencies. Either way, I was planning on owning the SDP-55 once the bugs were sorted. As of now, that is off the table.
How is the sound of your MC-10 compared to other processors you have had recently?
MUDCAT45 is online now  
post #1815 of 1912 Old 05-23-2020, 02:11 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
M Code's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Cotati, CA
Posts: 12,016
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1166 Post(s)
Liked: 760
Quote:
Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
Is it? I used to be a believer but after reading the ASR review, I have serious reservations. Sadly, my Lexicon MC-10 probably measures poorly considering no Arcam to date have measured well. As a long-time owner and advocate of Harman products, the software bugs combined with the recent ASR hardware review has led me to an end of the road scenario of buying into their marketing hype and blind, brand loyalty. Since Arcam and Synthesis are part of the the Harman Luxury Audio Group, it is my hope they reach out to Amir in an effort at minimum to validate his findings and ideally correct the deficiencies. Either way, I was planning on owning the SDP-55 once the bugs were sorted. As of now, that is off the table.
The real challenge is to Harman/JBL LifeStyle group..
The JBL SPD-55 is assembled in Vietnam, by the same factory that originally built the Harman/Kardon AVRs, Anthem AVRs, Marantz AVRs...
The biggest challenge is coordinating technical resources in Korea, Vietnam, UK and USA, EZ to say very hard to deliver...
As I posted previously, the hardware especially for the analog circuits is solid and straightforward, but for digital circuits is another thing. JBL is a great brand, but having solid hardware but with buggy software the product will continue to have shortcomings... Hopefully in the near future Harman/Arcam will figure things out...

Just my $0.02...
M Code is online now  
post #1816 of 1912 Old 05-23-2020, 03:14 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Jsin_N's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,118
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 672 Post(s)
Liked: 374
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlemoine2 View Post
I've been monitoring this thread for a while and understand the frustration with JBL and others releasing their product with so many bugs. I'll offer some thoughts on this topic from my own experience.


These days, I don't know if hardware product development includes retrospectives to review the good/bad/ugly of a release so they can learn for future products. They should. This is common in software development and done constantly.

[/I]
I stayed to flame JBL and praise Monoprice for doing it right.

Too many people were giving JBL the okay when the release was terrible. Like this should be standard fair with products and we should just accept it like a consumer stockholm victim.

I've seen a few people go over to Monoprice due to my complaining. Pretty happy about that. Glad I stayed to complain.

Speaking of, I just had my processor lock up completely while playing roon through Net. Also, still have the netflix chirping in atmos through Arc. And they still have unreleased features.

It's going on 4 weeks since a FW update.

And there's no way they even came close to testing 80/20 with this release.
Jsin_N is offline  
post #1817 of 1912 Old 05-23-2020, 03:16 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
madhuski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 3,062
Mentioned: 50 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1642 Post(s)
Liked: 1111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jsin_N View Post
I stayed to flame JBL and praise Monoprice for doing it right.

Too many people were giving JBL the okay when the release was terrible. Like this should be standard fair with products and we should just accept it like a consumer stockholm victim.

I've seen a few people go over to Monoprice due to my complaining. Pretty happy about that. Glad I stayed to complain.

Speaking of, I just had my processor lock up completely while playing roon through Net. Also, still have the netflix chirping in atmos through Arc. And they still have unreleased features.

It's going on 4 weeks since a FW update.

And there's no way they even came close to testing 80/20 with this release.


are you going to stick with the JBL or jump yo something else?

Selling in AVS Classifieds
FS: Funk Audio 21.0LX Subwoofer
madhuski is online now  
post #1818 of 1912 Old 05-23-2020, 03:21 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Jsin_N's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,118
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 672 Post(s)
Liked: 374
Quote:
Originally Posted by madhuski View Post
are you going to stick with the JBL or jump yo something else?
Stick with it for now. They're finally at 80

Economy is too shaky and the only thing I would consider is Trinnov. Maybe the SDP-75.

That's a huge cost increase.
Jsin_N is offline  
post #1819 of 1912 Old 05-23-2020, 05:41 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Molon_Labe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,405
Mentioned: 112 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3608 Post(s)
Liked: 4425
Quote:
Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post
How is the sound of your MC-10 compared to other processors you have had recently?
In direct mode, I found the Marantz 8805 to be more to my liking vs the MC10. With Dirac Live, the MC10 bests the Marantz, but the interface is miles behind Denon/Marantz. The Lexicon interface is useable but its a bit archaic for today's standards. Subjectively, I don't dislike the Lexicon.

Last edited by Molon_Labe; 05-23-2020 at 06:06 PM.
Molon_Labe is offline  
post #1820 of 1912 Old 05-23-2020, 09:41 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
filecat13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Cal Central Coast
Posts: 4,641
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 107 Post(s)
Liked: 217
Quote:
Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
Subjectively, I don't dislike the Lexicon.
Faint praise indeed!

What I can afford, when I can afford it...
filecat13 is offline  
post #1821 of 1912 Old 05-23-2020, 09:47 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
filecat13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Cal Central Coast
Posts: 4,641
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 107 Post(s)
Liked: 217
TBT, I have a few decades of the JBL Synthesis/Lexicon two line display under my belt, so it seems almost normal.

Clearly there are better interfaces and have been for some time. Even my now ancient Fosgate Audionics FAP-T1 had a better interface in its day, and still does all these years later.
Molon_Labe likes this.

What I can afford, when I can afford it...
filecat13 is offline  
post #1822 of 1912 Old 05-24-2020, 12:42 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Spizz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Posts: 3,889
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 520 Post(s)
Liked: 364
Quote:
Originally Posted by theblackangus View Post
Since I cant modify the main page, Ill bring this forward.
This is the list of things I complied for issues/features since the latest firmware was released from items people posted in this thread:
Thanks mate for the list. I added it to the first post
Spizz is offline  
post #1823 of 1912 Old 05-24-2020, 05:01 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
mmiles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Delaware
Posts: 4,692
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1175 Post(s)
Liked: 614
Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post
The real challenge is to Harman/JBL LifeStyle group..
The JBL SPD-55 is assembled in Vietnam, by the same factory that originally built the Harman/Kardon AVRs, Anthem AVRs, Marantz AVRs...
The biggest challenge is coordinating technical resources in Korea, Vietnam, UK and USA, EZ to say very hard to deliver...
As I posted previously, the hardware especially for the analog circuits is solid and straightforward, but for digital circuits is another thing. JBL is a great brand, but having solid hardware but with buggy software the product will continue to have shortcomings... Hopefully in the near future Harman/Arcam will figure things out...

Just my $0.02...
That does make testing and QA efforts tough.

Another thing that is not known (maybe someone does) is who actually is writing the software. Back in the 5.1 days Meridian did a ton of DSP firmware development.

Mike Miles
[email protected]
mmiles is offline  
post #1824 of 1912 Old 05-24-2020, 06:12 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
SimpleTheater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 3,037
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 292 Post(s)
Liked: 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by AVTimme View Post
Is it harder to get audio right or is it just that it is such a niche marked and the amount resources put into these products is Extremely small compared to display units?
There is no doubt about the complexities of designing products like these, but issues like these keep a lot of consumers on the sidelines and worse hurt future releases from early adopters who’ve been bitten before. I sat on the sidelines until Oppo got most of the bugs out of their 4K 203. I’m watching in shock as people are buying the Emotiva XMC-2 that doesn’t have Dirac yet (still coming soon after almost a year).

Monoprice should get credit for seemingly getting it right very quickly.

Regardless I think the problems this industry is having in the higher end of the market is going to hurt all, and that’s not a good thing.
philipbtz likes this.

Why is there NO perfect equipment, only compromises?
SimpleTheater is offline  
post #1825 of 1912 Old 05-24-2020, 08:00 AM
Member
 
MJV29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Channahon, IL
Posts: 106
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 67 Post(s)
Liked: 30
I noticed many people are talking about Harman Curve for Dirac. Where do I find this and I did all the measurement for my speakers,how do you apply the Harman curve or does it automatically do it?
MJV29 is offline  
post #1826 of 1912 Old 05-24-2020, 09:15 AM
Member
 
javierschmidt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 66
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Liked: 29
Call me crazy but I already placed the order for my unit. Once I move in it will be there with my M2 and Crown Dante



I have had my share of issues with other processors, so it just would feel weird if in my next purchase I did not feel any frustration and sometines anger.


Truth to be told those hours we spend trying to figure out what is wrong give an excuse not to be doing something else around the house.....
nonstopdoc1 likes this.
javierschmidt is offline  
post #1827 of 1912 Old 05-24-2020, 09:58 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
nonstopdoc1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 1,189
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 865 Post(s)
Liked: 378
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJV29 View Post
I noticed many people are talking about Harman Curve for Dirac. Where do I find this and I did all the measurement for my speakers,how do you apply the Harman curve or does it automatically do it?
https://mehlau.net/audio/dirac-live-2/

FS: QSC DPA 4.2 Amplifier
HT - Seymour Centerstage XD 2.39:1 133" W| JVC X790R | JBL SDP-55 | Nord NC500 | ATI AT528NC | Procella P8/P5V | Revel C763L | Monolith 12" x4
Living Room - LG OLED 65" | Denon X4400H | Monolith 3x200 | KEF Q900 L/R | Paradigm Millenia 20 CC | Polk Surrounds | Rythmik FV15HP x2
nonstopdoc1 is online now  
post #1828 of 1912 Old 05-24-2020, 11:34 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
M Code's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Cotati, CA
Posts: 12,016
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1166 Post(s)
Liked: 760
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmiles View Post
That does make testing and QA efforts tough.

Another thing that is not known (maybe someone does) is who actually is writing the software. Back in the 5.1 days Meridian did a ton of DSP firmware development.
This is 1 of the challenging, coordinating SW issues I posted about previously..
Basic CPU system SW is written in Korea, DSP SW is written in UK/USA. Next challenge is How is the software verified/validated? This process is most crucial as the 1st checkpoint is to handle any system issues or conflicts or bugs.
The next checkpoint is whatever revs/upgrades to the DSP...
Are these SW changes implemented correctly? Are there any negative fallouts?
If any issues/problems/conflicts/bugs surface then the software rewrite process is restarted.. As to eliminate the bugs.

Another basic problem is the combined software must be handled through the major supplier in Korea and though their engineers are knowledgible & capable... But their depth and hands-on-experience with the newer technologies is not @ the same level as Amir... Note there are multiple, other capable knowledgeable HT users besides Amir but where are they located? Are they inside Harman employees?

Note that Harman is well aware of the steps/process to deliver bug-free software, as their largest and most profitable group is the 12V OE infotainment group that depend totally on delivering reliable, bug-free software for their major customer automotive brands. However, the differences here is the basic system (CPU) software is done by an outside, non-Harman company. Basically Harman's software infotainment team writes the software for just control, graphics and user interface, as this software is on a different layer of the CPU processor. Note that virtually all of the major 12V OE automotive entertainment subcontractors use the same basic, system SW (CPU) core, but again specific SW changes are done for each automotive brand and type/class of vehicle on a separate CPU processor layer..

Our global CE home theater market needs Harman as an active, viable competitor.. Personally I hope they can meet the challenge..

Just my $0.02...
M Code is online now  
post #1829 of 1912 Old 05-24-2020, 01:27 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
mmiles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Delaware
Posts: 4,692
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1175 Post(s)
Liked: 614
Post #1808 and #1828 above are very interesting insights.

The issue for me is that I don’t recall this level of struggles with the SDP75 which a rebadged Trinnov (omitting some features).

Mike Miles
[email protected]
mmiles is offline  
post #1830 of 1912 Old 05-24-2020, 01:45 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
theblackangus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Des Moines, Iowa
Posts: 1,107
Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 671 Post(s)
Liked: 418
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmiles View Post
Post #1808 and #1828 above are very interesting insights.

The issue for me is that I don’t recall this level of struggles with the SDP75 which a rebadged Trinnov (omitting some features).

It would seem the big difference here is that SDP-55 = Arcam team SDP-75 = Trinnov team.

Trinnov team likely has the same platform for years so most of the bugs were already ironed out before the SDP-75 was created as its a re-badged Trinnov hardware platform, where the SDP-55 is a new platform.


Could be wrong here but I bet the SDP-75 was a minimal amount of code changes vs what the SDP-55/Arcam team had to accomplish.

Theater: 2x JTR 215 RT's, 1x 215 RM, 10x JTR S8's, 2x UXL-18 GSG Full Martys, Onkyo NR3002, D-Sonic 7 Channel, 3x Inuke 6000DSPs, Oppo-203, HTPC, Roku Ultra, Harmony Elite, JVC NX-7
Second System: Philharmonitors AA, UXL-18 Mini-Marty, Denon X1300, Sony X700 UHD Player, Harmony, Vizio P65-E (This setup to be upgraded this year)
theblackangus is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Receivers, Amps, and Processors

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off