JBL Synthesis SDP-55 (16ch, 9.1.6 Atmos Surround Sound Processor) - Page 69 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2041 of 2448 Old 06-02-2020, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Kent Headrick View Post
I agree with your first statement. I don't understand your second and third. How is the audio masking phenomenon not logical?
Audio masking is the very well established principle that if a sound is louder and especially lower in frequency than another sound, that other sound can be completely inaudible.
I think you know this, but for the benefit of those who are unfamiliar with masking I wanted to state it. Here is a Wikipedia link for those who were not familiar for info about it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auditory_masking

The more complex the signal is, the more frequencies it has, the more potential for masking any much lower level sounds (the distortion) there is.
In general, lower level tones cannot mask louder sounds. If the distortion is lower than the signal harmonics, it can't mask the signal.
For the violin example, violins are quite rich in harmonics. It is the harmonics that make a violin sound different from a flute. The violin harmonics are not distortion, they are the sound of the violin.
In the picture I have attached this is the spectrum of a violin playing the A above middle C, 440Hz. This was taken from a violin sample recording from my Korg Kronos keyboard.
You can see the fundamental and a couple dozen of its harmonics. You can see that the 2nd, 4th and 6th harmonics are actually louder than the fundamental with this violin.
So lets say you add 2nd harmonic distortion to this at -90dB. Note how loud the 2nd harmonic already is.
The distortion would be completely swamped by the violin's own harmonics. Now the -90dB distortion would apply to each of the violins harmonics at 90dB below their own signal level.
The masking curve for each of those harmonics would prevent the distortion from being audible.
If you look at the figure 4.18 from Toole's book that I referenced previously,
you can see that for the 2nd harmonic to become audible, that is above the masking threshold,
it would have to be above about -40dB relative to the signal level of the violin harmonic doing the masking.
The ABX supplied by Benchmark concerned crossover distortion that was detectable at 0.01 watts for 76 dB. This distortion is not relative to each tone.
Not denying masking, but wondering why anyone would buy products that require it.

Here is a processor (that shall remain nameless) that does not meet your requirements for transparence with masking in a multi-tone signal.

- Rich
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post #2042 of 2448 Old 06-02-2020, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by AVTimme View Post
Wonderful! I tend to favor the Auro 3D to! Powerful yet refined sound!
I only dig it mostly if it's really low. Like 5, for most all music. It gets goofy and maybe blurs detail some in the upper numbers. It's cool for a minute, then I go back to low or stereo for detail and front soundstage.

But, I'm not sitting around listening to classical.
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post #2043 of 2448 Old 06-02-2020, 03:23 PM
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I don't see how citing examples of egregious performance is a credible rebuttal.


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Originally Posted by RichB View Post
The ABX supplied by Benchmark concerned crossover distortion that was detectable at 0.01 watts for 76 dB. This distortion is not relative to each tone.
Not denying masking, but wondering why anyone would buy products that require it.

Here is a processor (that shall remain nameless) that does not meet your requirements for transparence with masking in a multi-tone signal.

- Rich

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post #2044 of 2448 Old 06-02-2020, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post
The ABX supplied by Benchmark concerned crossover distortion that was detectable at 0.01 watts for 76 dB. This distortion is not relative to each tone.
Not denying masking, but wondering why anyone would buy products that require it.

Here is a processor (that shall remain nameless) that does not meet your requirements for transparence with masking in a multi-tone signal.

- Rich
The Benchmark test was concerned with crossover distortion in class a/b power amps, which is not generally signal level dependent.
Most distortions are signal level dependent. That is the lower amplitude of the signal, the lower the amplitude of the distortion.
I was specifically referring to the notion that -90dB down distortion is audible. Even in the benchmark test, which was quite contrived, they had to use sine waves to make it audible and their claim was the distortion was only -70dB or so down.
As I have stated before, real music is a much tougher test to make low levels of distortion audible. With sine waves there is much less masking.
As to your graph, Amir drove that unit into clipping, so the test was not valid.
His next graph when he reduced the signal level 1 dB shows the multitone distortion products to have dropped to between -80 to -110dB below the signal, which based on masking are again, are highly likely to be inaudible.

Look I understand if someone does not want to buy a processor that does not have below xxx distortion or greater than yyy signal to noise ratio; that's their choice, and is perfectly valid. Everybody has different priorities. It's just that trying to justify that choice based on the audibility of these low levels of distortion is quite questionable.
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post #2045 of 2448 Old 06-02-2020, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
I don't see how citing examples of egregious performance is a credible rebuttal.
Processors should be able to achieve 100 dB SINAD or close.
Relying on masking is the rebuttal.

Follow this link for relevance:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...-review.13242/

- Rich
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post #2046 of 2448 Old 06-02-2020, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kent Headrick View Post
The Benchmark test was concerned with crossover distortion in class a/b power amps, which is not generally signal level dependent.
Most distortions are signal level dependent. That is the lower amplitude of the signal, the lower the amplitude of the distortion.
I was specifically referring to the notion that -90dB down distortion is audible. Even in the benchmark test, which was quite contrived, they had to use sine waves to make it audible and their claim was the distortion was only -70dB or so down.
As I have stated before, real music is a much tougher test to make low levels of distortion audible. With sine waves there is much less masking.
As to your graph, Amir drove that unit into clipping, so the test was not valid.
His next graph when he reduced the signal level 1 dB shows the multitone distortion products to have dropped to between -80 to -110dB below the signal, which based on masking are again, are highly likely to be inaudible.

Look I understand if someone does not want to buy a processor that does not have below xxx distortion or greater than yyy signal to noise ratio; that's their choice, and is perfectly valid. Everybody has different priorities. It's just that trying to justify that choice based on the audibility of these low levels of distortion is quite questionable.
That is fine but if a product has limited output voltage then that should be reflected in the specification:

Arcam Specification: Nominal output level 1V RMS (max. 5V RMS)

JBL SDP-55 Specification: Nominal output level (single-ended/balanced): 1V RMS / 2V RMS (max. 5V RMS / 10 V RMS)

These processors share similar specifications but the 55 also include balanced specification.

Accurate specifications that include distortion specifications.
Without them, the customer must assume the performance is acceptable at all specified levels.
The SDP-55 10 V RMS balanced would be enough to drive the AHB2's in low gain mode to full output.

ASR is not going going to rate balanced outputs at anything less than 4 volts as acceptable, fair or not.

Most consumer amplifiers that require under 2 Volts for maximum output, so it may be a non-issue for those systems.

Here are the analog output specs for the Oppo UDP-205:

Audio Characteristics**
(Stereo Audio Output)
Frequency Response: 20Hz – 160kHz (-3dB ˜ +0.05dB)
Signal-to-Noise Ratio: > 120dBr
THD+N: < 0.00018%
Output Level: (RCA) 2.1±0.2Vrms. (XLR) 4.2±0.4Vrms
Dynamic Range: > 120dB
Crosstalk: > 118dB

Oppo probably measured them before shipping.

- Rich
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post #2047 of 2448 Old 06-02-2020, 05:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
I don't see how citing examples of egregious performance is a credible rebuttal.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post
Processors should be able to achieve 100 dB SINAD or close.
Relying on masking is the rebuttal.

Your first statement is your preference, not a demonstrable fact.

The second doesn't address how citing very poorly performing examples is relevant to Kent's examples which are acceptable to most people but not apparently you or Amir..
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post #2048 of 2448 Old 06-02-2020, 06:45 PM
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Thumbs down

I wish posters, especially non-owners would move off bashing the new Arcam / JBL lineup, and limit any issues challenges to owners.

We get it .... you are so driven by the ASR measurements that you dont want to buy these units. Okay we get it, we respect your preference. Move on. Spend your time on something else - something that is not as disappointing (per you) as these units.

For the rest of us who have spent a pretty chunk of change - let us discuss real issues.

Thanks a LOT in advance

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post #2049 of 2448 Old 06-02-2020, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Kent Headrick View Post
I was specifically referring to the notion that -90dB down distortion is audible. Even in the benchmark test, which was quite contrived, they had to use sine waves to make it audible and their claim was the distortion was only -70dB or so down.
Klippel’s online listening test shows quite a few people can hear distortion at -60 dB in music sources.
http://www.klippel-listeningtest.de/

Sine wave tests have shown -80 dB is noticeable. (Source) “ Practical tests have proven that we can hear a 1Khz sine wave tone with 0dB level with white noise at levels of -70 to -80dB.”

To maintain high-quality sound, especially at a long distance, it is vitally important that each part of the audio chain is of the utmost integrity. The quality of each component in the signal path will determine the amount of information loss. The system must be capable of transferring an unchanged sound, including the ambience of a performance over distance at the required level to provide the greatest possible experience for the listener.” (same source)

Since we know that each piece in the signal chain is adding to distortion, then if my source equipment comes in at -90 dB followed by this JBL/Arcam at -90 dB, followed by an amp at -90dB, you’re well past audibility. Throw in a turntable and you’re in the range where anyone could hear it. Sure each company can make a valid argument that their equipment performs better than audible distortion (except the turntable), but that is not true because it’s not the only equipment in the chain - they each add to distortion.

Now if someone is asking me to drop $4,500 on a piece of equipment in my acoustic chain and I know a sub $1k Denon hits -99 dB, is it really that much to ask for equal performance? (and I’m asking for superior performance).

Having just read that the new NAD M28 amp is going to be pushing test equipment to the limit (<115 dB, and the M27 is already at <101), then an competently performing processor (<105) would put all audible arguments to rest. Then we can all complain about speaker distortion and turntables.

Why is there NO perfect equipment, only compromises?
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post #2050 of 2448 Old 06-02-2020, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by SimpleTheater View Post
Klippel’s online listening test shows quite a few people can hear distortion at -60 dB in music sources.
http://www.klippel-listeningtest.de/

Sine wave tests have shown -80 dB is noticeable. (Source) “ Practical tests have proven that we can hear a 1Khz sine wave tone with 0dB level with white noise at levels of -70 to -80dB.”

To maintain high-quality sound, especially at a long distance, it is vitally important that each part of the audio chain is of the utmost integrity. The quality of each component in the signal path will determine the amount of information loss. The system must be capable of transferring an unchanged sound, including the ambience of a performance over distance at the required level to provide the greatest possible experience for the listener.” (same source)

Since we know that each piece in the signal chain is adding to distortion, then if my source equipment comes in at -90 dB followed by this JBL/Arcam at -90 dB, followed by an amp at -90dB, you’re well past audibility. Throw in a turntable and you’re in the range where anyone could hear it. Sure each company can make a valid argument that their equipment performs better than audible distortion (except the turntable), but that is not true because it’s not the only equipment in the chain - they each add to distortion.

Now if someone is asking me to drop $4,500 on a piece of equipment in my acoustic chain and I know a sub $1k Denon hits -99 dB, is it really that much to ask for equal performance? (and I’m asking for superior performance).

Having just read that the new NAD M28 amp is going to be pushing test equipment to the limit (<115 dB, and the M27 is already at <101), then an competently performing processor (<105) would put all audible arguments to rest. Then we can all complain about speaker distortion and turntables.

Get it, you don’t want to buy Arcam / JBL ... can we please move on! Feel free to buy a Trinnov or whatever floats your boat. But please move on!

P.S. If you are playing sine waves on your system I must conclude that you are an immortal because you have way too much time at your hands to waste instead of listening to Music, movies or being with your loved ones!

But i digress ... Lets Move On!


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post #2051 of 2448 Old 06-02-2020, 08:57 PM
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Originally Posted by tommarra View Post
Get it, you don’t want to buy Arcam / JBL ... can we please move on! Feel free to buy a Trinnov or whatever floats your boat. But please move on!

P.S. If you are playing sine waves on your system I must conclude that you are an immortal because you have way too much time at your hands to waste instead of listening to Music, movies or being with your loved ones!

But i digress ... Lets Move On!


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The discussion on measurements has merit and is directly relevant to this processor. There are several of us here that also have substantial coin invested in Harman products and are potentially future buyers. However, I understand that the sidebar measurement discussions can detract from bug reporting and resolution. Maybe a separate thread is order for discussing the merits of processor measurements and when they become audile. In the mean time, all you have to do is use the ignore feature for everyone that is involved in those measurement discussions. In summary, I feel your pain and understand your position, but the back and forth discussion on the measurements has been informative.
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post #2052 of 2448 Old 06-02-2020, 09:04 PM
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The discussion on measurements has merit and is directly relevant to this processor. There are several of us here that also have substantial coin invested in Harman products and are potentially future buyers. However, I understand that the sidebar measurement discussions can detract from bug reporting and resolution. Maybe a separate thread is order for discussing the merits of processor measurements and when they become audile. In the mean time, all you have to do is use the ignore feature for everyone that is involved in those measurement discussions. In summary, I feel your pain and understand your position, but the back and forth discussion on the measurements has been informative.
Not only that but it forces Harman to recognize it and it's not just swept under the rug. People pay attention to this thread. It has influenced buyers.

Adversely, I don't care about off topics or things not relevant. I can scroll past what I don't care about. Most of these threads would be dead otherwise. To each their own though.
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post #2053 of 2448 Old 06-02-2020, 09:30 PM
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There are lot of really good stuffs which recommended by ASR,go for it please,it must sound so good
For the rest of us who have spent a pretty chunk of change - let us discuss real issues
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post #2054 of 2448 Old 06-03-2020, 04:28 AM
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If i put some guys, which seem to be on a crusade over here on my ignore list, will they be able to see, what i am writing, or is there something else i have to do, to prevent them from reading my posts?
It is getting really annoying. Im in here for a contructive Exchange about the two products i possibly may buy soon, not for someone telling me i am wrong to buy this or that. If i wanted something like that, i would join an anarchist board, or something similar.
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post #2055 of 2448 Old 06-03-2020, 05:14 AM
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If i put some guys, which seem to be on a crusade over here on my ignore list, will they be able to see, what i am writing, or is there something else i have to do, to prevent them from reading my posts?
It is getting really annoying. Im in here for a contructive Exchange about the two products i possibly may buy soon, not for someone telling me i am wrong to buy this or that. If i wanted something like that, i would join an anarchist board, or something similar.
The ignore list only filters comments posted by that user so you don't see their comments. Your posts are still visible to everyone. I agree with you; brand loyalists are often annoying, arrogant, and condescending.
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post #2056 of 2448 Old 06-03-2020, 05:28 AM
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If i put some guys, which seem to be on a crusade over here on my ignore list, will they be able to see, what i am writing, or is there something else i have to do, to prevent them from reading my posts?
It is getting really annoying. Im in here for a contructive Exchange about the two products i possibly may buy soon, not for someone telling me i am wrong to buy this or that. If i wanted something like that, i would join an anarchist board, or something similar.
I don’t know why discussing distortion in these products is considered a crusade by you and others. It’s not for me, nor is discussing jitter issues, audible or not, when there is a YouTube video from Arcam promoting the lowest jitter possible. While you can ignore my posts yours will be shown to me. What you may want is an Owner’s Only forum.

Unfortunately not being an owner I can’t discuss the firmware issues and other implementation problems occurring, but I read about them because they effect my future purchases (do I trust that even a great measuring product from a company will work as intended. I spent a year reading and responding on the Oppo 203 board before buying one. Glad I did and got a stable firmware version.

Long story short, everything about this product interests me because I’m in the market. No different than buying a car, research, talk to owners, mechanics and even those that bought something else.

Why is there NO perfect equipment, only compromises?
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post #2057 of 2448 Old 06-03-2020, 05:52 AM
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I agree with you; brand loyalists are often annoying, arrogant, and condescending.

Markus

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post #2058 of 2448 Old 06-03-2020, 06:16 AM
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There are lot of really good stuffs which recommended by ASR,go for it please,it must sound so good
For the rest of us who have spent a pretty chunk of change - let us discuss real issues
This is the second time the term "real issues" has been used to contrast the measurement discussion. Jim Garett, Senior Director of Product Strategy, Harman stated the following in an interview with Audioholics regarding the AV40 "Hands down the Arcam receivers are the best sounding receivers out there and that comes back from the history of the brand. We are founded on music and we have put a lot of effort into minimizing jitter through the HDMI circuity. Definitely the lowest amount of jitter and that obviously affects the sound quality, so these are very musical receivers in that respect."

A senior director of the manufacturer says jitter matters and is audible. The ASR testing shows copious amounts of jitter. The "cat is out of the bag" when Arcam goes on record stating jitter matters and is audible on the very product that measured poorly in that regard. I am at a loss as to why this isn't considered a "real issue" and why the current owners don't demand Harman make improvements. Ok, the processor sounds great but it could possibly sound better. If improvements are possible, why not?

The hypocrisy of Harman starting a 180 page thread on how science makes a better loudspeaker, which, by the way, has it's ample share of brand loyalists bashing other speaker manufacturers and their customers for relying on subjective listening experience, now remains silent on their poor measurements (audible or not) while defensively flipping to subjective listening experience speaks volumes.

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post #2059 of 2448 Old 06-03-2020, 06:50 AM
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I am at a loss as to why this isn't considered a "real issue" and why the current owners don't demand Harman make improvements.
Happens all the time regardless of product. Things get really bizarre when said people immediately switch to personal attacks and ask for the ignore function. Guess some are just capable of impulsive emotional responses.
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post #2060 of 2448 Old 06-03-2020, 08:04 AM
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This is the second time the term "real issues" has been used to contrast the measurement discussion. Jim Garett, Senior Director of Product Strategy, Harman stated the following in an interview with Audioholics regarding the AV40 "Hands down the Arcam receivers are the best sounding receivers out there and that comes back from the history of the brand. We are founded on music and we have put a lot of effort into minimizing jitter through the HDMI circuity. Definitely the lowest amount of jitter and that obviously affects the sound quality, so these are very musical receivers in that respect."

A senior director of the manufacturer says jitter matters and is audible. The ASR testing shows copious amounts of jitter. The "cat is out of the bag" when Arcam goes on record stating jitter matters and is audible on the very product that measured poorly in that regard. I am at a loss as to why this isn't considered a "real issue" and why the current owners don't demand Harman make improvements. Ok, the processor sounds great but it could possibly sound better. If improvements are possible, why not?

The hypocrisy of Harman starting a 180 page thread on how science makes a better loudspeaker, which, by the way, has it's ample share of brand loyalists bashing other speaker manufacturers and their customers for relying on subjective listening experience, now remains silent on their poor measurements (audible or not) while defensively flipping to subjective listening experience speaks volumes.
As an owner, and after adjusting my amp gains up to give me the output I was used to with my Anthem, I can tell you that the noise in this processor is real. You have to have your amp gains perfect or you get the annoying hissing/droning/ticking sound that I posted when I first got mine. Right now I have the output, but the noise is back and it's distracting.

So, I have to do another calibration (60 minutes or more) and bump the gains down 5 dB to see if I can make it inaudible, or mostly so. I adjusted them 10-15dB higher than previous.

There's definitely noise with high sensitivity speakers, like the 7 series compression driver and M2.

I also get turn on pops in my subs since taking the miniDSP out and using 1.32. It's faint, but the mute pops are still there, too.

I don't think Arcam is paying attention to these things or they can't fix them.
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post #2061 of 2448 Old 06-03-2020, 08:29 AM
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post #2062 of 2448 Old 06-03-2020, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by SimpleTheater View Post
Klippel’s online listening test shows quite a few people can hear distortion at -60 dB in music sources.
http://www.klippel-listeningtest.de/

Sine wave tests have shown -80 dB is noticeable. (Source) “ Practical tests have proven that we can hear a 1Khz sine wave tone with 0dB level with white noise at levels of -70 to -80dB.”

To maintain high-quality sound, especially at a long distance, it is vitally important that each part of the audio chain is of the utmost integrity. The quality of each component in the signal path will determine the amount of information loss. The system must be capable of transferring an unchanged sound, including the ambience of a performance over distance at the required level to provide the greatest possible experience for the listener.” (same source)

Since we know that each piece in the signal chain is adding to distortion, then if my source equipment comes in at -90 dB followed by this JBL/Arcam at -90 dB, followed by an amp at -90dB, you’re well past audibility. Throw in a turntable and you’re in the range where anyone could hear it. Sure each company can make a valid argument that their equipment performs better than audible distortion (except the turntable), but that is not true because it’s not the only equipment in the chain - they each add to distortion.

Now if someone is asking me to drop $4,500 on a piece of equipment in my acoustic chain and I know a sub $1k Denon hits -99 dB, is it really that much to ask for equal performance? (and I’m asking for superior performance).

Having just read that the new NAD M28 amp is going to be pushing test equipment to the limit (<115 dB, and the M27 is already at <101), then an competently performing processor (<105) would put all audible arguments to rest. Then we can all complain about speaker distortion and turntables.
I measured -40 dB distortion coming from a Salon1 midrange when it began to fail using 97 dB 1kHz sine-waves. Normal listening is 20 dB lower and I detected it with female vocals. Considering, this was on of the two channels playing and the issue was mechanical, it was likely -60 dB down. The Klippel findings seem sensible.

I suspect Harman did not have detailed voltage, distortion, and jitter requirements because, if they had, these products would perform up to the marketing hype, except for musical which is, of course, meaningless audiophile drivel.

As far as Trinnov, Storm, and other uber products, unless there are measurement showing otherwise, I suspect are no better (and some may be worse) than the current round of $5K'ish processors.
Are any of these companies willing to send their product to ASR?

- Rich
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post #2063 of 2448 Old 06-03-2020, 08:43 AM
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A senior director of the manufacturer says jitter matters and is audible. The ASR testing shows copious amounts of jitter. The "cat is out of the bag" when Arcam goes on record stating jitter matters and is audible on the very product that measured poorly in that regard. I am at a loss as to why this isn't considered a "real issue" and why the current owners don't demand Harman make improvements. Ok, the processor sounds great..

The obvious explanation is that the claim is nothing more than marketing hype.

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post #2064 of 2448 Old 06-03-2020, 08:52 AM
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Is it feasible that some, if not most, of this will be resolved via firmware upgrades because noise issues/jitter (or whatever) have been unintentionally introduced in previous firmware upgrades?
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post #2065 of 2448 Old 06-03-2020, 08:59 AM
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The obvious explanation is that the claim is nothing more than marketing hype.
I preface this by first saying that I am not disagreeing with you. However, wasn't that the same argument levied by the naysayers of Harman in the speaker thread? Measurements are more marketing hype than substance with 180 pages of posts going back and forth on the topic. We have an issue that Harman needs to address. They are the ones who chose to use AVS as a marketing outlet for their engineering and product validation methodologies. I don't think it unfair to hold their proverbial feet to the fire on this one.
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post #2066 of 2448 Old 06-03-2020, 09:46 AM
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I preface this by first saying that I am not disagreeing with you. However, wasn't that the same argument levied by the naysayers of Harman in the speaker thread? Measurements are more marketing hype than substance with 180 pages of posts going back and forth on the topic. We have an issue that Harman needs to address. They are the ones who chose to use AVS as a marketing outlet for their engineering and product validation methodologies. I don't think it unfair to hold their proverbial feet to the fire on this one.
"S H I T T" audio is now posting Audio Precision measurements for some of their gear.

Emotiva used to provide specifications and AP measurements for their amps.
Detailed specifications are not provided for the RMC-1 family, not even simple voltage output.
I have internal numbers that look very good and we also have ASR measurement.
Apparently, processor companies don't see the advantage in providing detailed specifications.

Small companies seem more inclined to provide evidence of performance.

- Rich
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post #2067 of 2448 Old 06-03-2020, 10:06 AM
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I have placed an order on sdp-55 since I actually took time and listen to one and compared it with trinnov and storm audio .
Trinnov is the best on room correction but the SDP-55 is a bargain for the price .

I have listen on alot of different ones I have had a cxa5100 before but have waited for something and this is it.

I care more what I think about the sound then some test .

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post #2068 of 2448 Old 06-03-2020, 10:29 AM
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The ignore list only filters comments posted by that user so you don't see their comments. Your posts are still visible to everyone. I agree with you; brand loyalists are often annoying, arrogant, and condescending.
It's the AVS fishbowl, and pretty common in social media too. I know this is just electronics, but the longer I'm on AVS, the more I'm convinced that beyond products that are at the commodity or value level, there are distinct personalities and lifestyle choices that draw us to particular brands. Put another way, we "are" what we buy to a degree and what the brand represents or doesn't for us. But we humans tend to be tribal, and it's human nature to "rally around the flag", so to speak.

That's not to say that you can't move between your tribes, but like does draw like to a degree.

Not saying this is good or bad, just an observation as a professional marketing scientist.

Going back into lurk mode...

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post #2069 of 2448 Old 06-03-2020, 10:29 AM
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I'm not familiar with that thread.

For the umpteenth time, no one has said that the performance shouldn't meet their specs and that their feet shouldn't be held to the fire.

The only thing in contention is at what level it's audible.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
I preface this by first saying that I am not disagreeing with you. However, wasn't that the same argument levied by the naysayers of Harman in the speaker thread? Measurements are more marketing hype than substance with 180 pages of posts going back and forth on the topic. We have an issue that Harman needs to address. They are the ones who chose to use AVS as a marketing outlet for their engineering and product validation methodologies. I don't think it unfair to hold their proverbial feet to the fire on this one.
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post #2070 of 2448 Old 06-03-2020, 10:41 AM
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I'm not familiar with that thread.
I think it will be a cult classic on AVS for some time to come. Here ya go....
Get Your Popcorn Ready
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