JBL Synthesis SDP-55 (16ch, 9.1.6 Atmos Surround Sound Processor) - Page 80 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2371 of 2568 Old 06-30-2020, 02:24 AM
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Originally Posted by nonstopdoc1 View Post
I am sorry but can we please keep the discussion LIMITED to JBL SDP-55 on this thread.
Isn't that the topic? You can prove that the JBL SDP-55 is NOT working as it should
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post #2372 of 2568 Old 06-30-2020, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
That's pseudologic. There are many examples for example in mathematics.
To be charitable, I do think he was referencing empirical data.
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post #2373 of 2568 Old 06-30-2020, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
You can prove that the JBL SDP-55 is NOT working as it should

Yes, because there's plenty of evidence of malfunction.

That's not the same as no evidence that it's functioning properly.
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post #2374 of 2568 Old 06-30-2020, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
Yes, because there's plenty of evidence of malfunction.

That's not the same as no evidence that it's functioning properly.
Which is not the same as "You can't prove a negative"

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post #2375 of 2568 Old 06-30-2020, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post
Obviously claims for "any" future Dirac upgrades are hyperbole. At some point (possibly the next version!) software updates will require new hardware. Regardless, justifying currently selling a functionally prototype prepro by dangling promises of future upgradability is Emotiva's signature move. Samsung should be above that.

Like others, I consider DLBC unready based on measured results posted. Monoprice and NAD holding back DLBC until it works right is IMO a more prudent approach than Storm and Samsung pushing it out there to everyone ASAP. I hope DLBC will be the best part of this generation prepros when it does work, but we don’t appear to be there yet.

Also, even if DLBC is an extra $500 on the HTP-1 when ready (we don’t know how much, or if) the HTP-1 is a reportedly a finished-product $4500 prepro with added value (a 16-band PEQ/shelf filter block for advanced configurations) that's in the surprise-and-delight features addition stage (REW test tones), while the SDP-55 a $6000 prototype.

I was looking at the Monoprice HTP-1 and JBL SDP-55. I knew I wanted the DLBC functionality so I took that into the price consideration and purchased the JBL, which cost less 'out the door' than the HTP-1. So far the JBL is working for me outside of strange Dirac issues; filters not saving or being lost after a power loss.
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post #2376 of 2568 Old 06-30-2020, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by smbsocal View Post
I was looking at the Monoprice HTP-1 and JBL SDP-55. I knew I wanted the DLBC functionality so I took that into the price consideration and purchased the JBL, which cost less 'out the door' than the HTP-1. So far the JBL is working for me outside of strange Dirac issues; filters not saving or being lost after a power loss.
There must be some serious discounts on the SDP-55 then if you can get it for $1500-2000 below MSRP.

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post #2377 of 2568 Old 06-30-2020, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Mashie Saldana View Post
There must be some serious discounts on the SDP-55 then if you can get it for $1500-2000 below MSRP.

There are authorized resellers that take all / a lot of the margin and those that are more willing to help out the consumer. If the JBL price was held at the MSRP I would have gone with the HTP-1 since they both seem to be great products, even if they both need some work on the firmwares.
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post #2378 of 2568 Old 06-30-2020, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Mashie Saldana View Post
There must be some serious discounts on the SDP-55 then if you can get it for $1500-2000 below MSRP.
This seems to be the case with certain brands. It may depend on manufacturer incentives, the philosophy of the dealer (higher volume? more service and hands-on? more installs? etc.). But yeah, it isn’t quite fair to compare internet direct to msrp. As I’ve mentioned a couple of times in the last page or so, internet direct has a distinct “price talk” advantage on the forum. Nothing wrong with that per se, and I’m not lobbying for a rule change (as if that would amount to much!), but some folks may tend to avoid “dealers” because they don’t want to haggle, worry they may be sold something they don’t need, worry they may show their ignorance, etc., and some of these internet direct companies have excellent reputations. The combo of those kinds of factors can hurt companies like JBL when they have a product that is in direct competition with internet direct companies (like Emotiva or Monoprice—and I know there are a handful of dealers that deal Emotiva, but I’m speaking in generalities). With that said, I’m sure the price talk rule is there in part to protect local dealers and to protect the format and general topic of the forum (and that’s a good thing). But I also think it can help local local dealers if folks who snoop around the forums are at least made aware of “street price” as a broad possibility, when comparing these products. At the least I hope the general concept might motivate them to snoop around not just here but also at the local shop. I was oblivious to these kinds of facts, early on, and as a result, I dismissed certain products from the start (in massive favor towards internet direct).
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post #2379 of 2568 Old 07-02-2020, 02:56 AM
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Further updates to the bug list:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...l#post59871614

Thanks to @tbaucom
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post #2380 of 2568 Old 07-02-2020, 12:26 PM
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Maybe I missed it, but any updated news on what JBL is actually going to do about HDMI 2.1?

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post #2381 of 2568 Old 07-02-2020, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Mashie Saldana View Post
There must be some serious discounts on the SDP-55 then if you can get it for $1500-2000 below MSRP.
If U can buy the SDP-55 for $2000 below SRP in the USA U better go do it promptly if serious...
The dealer selling for that discount is actually losing money and/or dumping inventory..

Keep in mind, the SDP-55 is not assembled by Harman/Arcam, so the producing subcontracting factory (Anam #1 )
has to make a reasonable profit for BOM material cost + labor+ factory overhead to FOB export pricing...

Just my $0.02...
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post #2382 of 2568 Old 07-02-2020, 07:13 PM
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The dealer selling for that discount is actually losing money and/or dumping inventory..
I think you would be surprised by the wholesale cost of a lot of products. I have costs sheets for a lot of AV gear and you'd be shocked what dealers pay for some merchandise, especially if the manufacturer is running specials.
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post #2383 of 2568 Old 07-02-2020, 08:46 PM
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I think you would be surprised by the wholesale cost of a lot of products. I have costs sheets for a lot of AV gear and you'd be shocked what dealers pay for some merchandise, especially if the manufacturer is running specials.

I worked in hifi stores when I was young (many decades ago) and IIRC margins were about 40%.
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post #2384 of 2568 Old 07-02-2020, 09:30 PM
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Has anyone seen Amir's updated AVR review of the Denon X4700? Worth a look. I bring it up because Amir's review of the Arcam receiver has figured frequently in this thread.

The revised review confirms past suspicions that I don't believe I wrote about here because I don't see any return in engaging at that level. However, as all the very negative reviews of receivers were coming out of AVR, I said to a friend that if I were getting testing results that were so relentlessly negative for an entire product category, in addition to questioning the integrity of the designers, I would question the integrity of my testing methodology.

Turns out, at least in the case of this Denon, that Amir's testing procedure was defective. And in a manner that necessarily calls into question ALL of his measurements of multichannel home theater devices. To his credit, he admits it freely which is what I would expect of him. I think he's well intentioned, if obviously arrogant about his own infallibility.

So, sadly, I think this leaves us, once again, with no fully reliable body of home theater gear measurements. Because most of the equipment AVR tested is, I'm guessing, no longer in Amir's possession, he can't go back and retest all the devices he's negatively assessed. It remains to be seen how he deals with those past reviews.
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post #2385 of 2568 Old 07-02-2020, 11:16 PM
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Turns out, at least in the case of this Denon, that Amir's testing procedure was defective.
Not really. He explains it in length at https://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...updated.14493/
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post #2386 of 2568 Old 07-02-2020, 11:50 PM
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Turns out, at least in the case of this Denon, that Amir's testing procedure was defective.
As mentioned above, not really.

"AVRs have channel mapping to deal with configuration differences between input audio streams and playback capability. You may for example use the AVR with just two speakers for living room sound while playing 7.1 channel Blu-ray content. AVR will then use its internal mapping to mix down the high input channel count to stereo. For reasons that are unknown at this point but is being investigated by Denon engineering, when feeding only two channels to AVR but in 8 channel configuration, and the AVR is configured as just Left and Right speakers, the noise level goes up substantially and there is potential for clipping on maximum level signal."


He has SDP-55 in for review. We will know soon its objective performance.
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post #2387 of 2568 Old 07-03-2020, 12:58 AM
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Not really. He explains it in length at https://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...updated.14493/
The downmix scenario is unlikely to be seen and for high channel count units like these it is even less likely. Who here runs their SDP-55 with two speakers total? The results for the AV40 and AVR10 are highly likely to be defective, hopefully an upcoming SDP-55 review will give some idea of the real performance of these units.
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post #2388 of 2568 Old 07-03-2020, 01:05 AM
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The downmix scenario is unlikely to be seen and for high channel count units like these it is even less likely. Who here runs their SDP-55 with two speakers total?
At the same time that specific scenario should not degrade performance. Kind of scary that a manufacturer like Denon doesn't seem to test units thoroughly while under development. Shows again how neglected the whole product segment really is.

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The results for the AV40 and AVR10 are highly likely to be defective, hopefully an upcoming SDP-55 review will give some idea of the real performance of these units.
Why would they be "highly likely to be defective"? It seems that enthusiasts are more likely to take the side of the manufacturer than their own as a consumer. "Brand loyalty" seems to be real.

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post #2389 of 2568 Old 07-03-2020, 01:11 AM
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At the same time that specific scenario should not degrade performance. Kind of scary that a manufacturer like Denon doesn't seem to test units thoroughly while under development. Shows again how neglected the whole product segment really is.



Why would they be "highly likely to be defective"? It seems that enthusiasts are more likely to take the side of the manufacturer than their own as a consumer. "Brand loyalty" seems to be real.
They show the same issues as the Denon X4700h review before it was corrected, this is also why the centre channel tested so much better than the stereo channels in the AV40 review. Do you think the X4700h review did not need correcting?
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post #2390 of 2568 Old 07-03-2020, 01:14 AM
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They show the same issues as the Denon X4700h review before it was corrected, this is also why the centre channel tested so much better than the stereo channels in the AV40 review. Do you think the X4700h review did not need correcting?
Ask Arcam.

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post #2391 of 2568 Old 07-03-2020, 01:20 AM
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Ask Arcam.
Arcam responded to the review saying the AV40 met spec when tested with a "Class 2" HDMI signal generator.
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post #2392 of 2568 Old 07-03-2020, 01:24 AM
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Arcam responded to the review saying the AV40 met spec when tested with a "Class 2" HDMI signal generator.
Well then this is what you get for your money from Arcam. Not good enough for me. You might think differently.

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post #2393 of 2568 Old 07-03-2020, 01:32 AM
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Well then this is what you get for your money from Arcam. Not good enough for me. You might think differently.
If it meets spec I'm happy enough.
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post #2394 of 2568 Old 07-03-2020, 01:39 AM
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If it meets spec I'm happy enough.
It's just not good value if those "specs" are easily exceeded by devices that cost a lot less.

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post #2395 of 2568 Old 07-03-2020, 02:27 AM
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It's just not good value if those "specs" are easily exceeded by devices that cost a lot less.
Value is much more subjective and I know you have a different view of value of current 16 channel products.

It is important that the product meets its published specs. If you look back to the original discussion of the AV40 test results it is the shortfall to spec which concerned many. It now looks like the review was indeed wrong and it is likely the unit does meet spec.
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post #2396 of 2568 Old 07-03-2020, 02:33 AM
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It now looks like the review was indeed wrong and it is likely the unit does meet spec.
I don't see any indication of that. There is a problem with the unit and Amir's test revealed it. You decide who needs to get to the bottom of the issue. Amir or the manufacturer. Based on the direction in which money is flowing I'd say the ball is in the manufacturer's court. Big time. They don't seem to bother much though. That speaks volumes to me.

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post #2397 of 2568 Old 07-03-2020, 02:41 AM
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I don't see any indication of that. There is a problem with the unit and Amir's test revealed it. You decide who needs to get to the bottom of the issue. Amir or the manufacturer. Based on the direction in which money is flowing I'd say the ball is in the manufacturer's court. Big time. They don't seem to bother much though. That speaks volumes to me.
Arcam responded that the ASR results are invalid, now looks like they are correct. I'm starting to think you will be negative in any of the 16 channel prepro threads regardless.
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post #2398 of 2568 Old 07-03-2020, 02:54 AM
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Arcam responded that the ASR results are invalid, now looks like they are correct.
They claimed that (where?) without telling anybody in what way Amir's results would be invalid. That's nothing more than a Mickey Mouse response. That alone should raise some eyebrows and have you stay away from buying.

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I'm starting to think you will be negative in any of the 16 channel prepro threads regardless.
As long as they are all delivering that level of performance for that kind of money there's no other way to assess the situation. Not sure why you put so much energy in defending them for delivering half-baked products for a premium.

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post #2399 of 2568 Old 07-03-2020, 03:06 AM
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Turns out, at least in the case of this Denon, that Amir's testing procedure was defective. And in a manner that necessarily calls into question ALL of his measurements of multichannel home theater devices. To his credit, he admits it freely which is what I would expect of him. I think he's well intentioned, if obviously arrogant about his own infallibility.
Whoa. Your conclusions are way out of line. Amir just inputs a legitimate signal to the device and measures the output. Amir is not responsible for the manufacturers buggy implementation. Credit goes to Denon&Amir, for diagnosing a bug in a device. Not so for Arcam, who prefers to remain arrogant about various bugs in their equipment - this is the major problem. Putting buggy devices in the marketplace and instead dealing with issues correctly, they chose the 'shoot the messenger' tactic.

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So, sadly, I think this leaves us, once again, with no fully reliable body of home theater gear measurements. Because most of the equipment AVR tested is, I'm guessing, no longer in Amir's possession, he can't go back and retest all the devices he's negatively assessed. It remains to be seen how he deals with those past reviews.
On the contrary - Amirs trivial testing scenario unveils serious bugs in implementation and the manufacturer doesn't even care to troubleshoot it, instead reverts to labeling and name calling... Please remember - users shouldn't be beta testers. Amir is just a regular user, who just measures the DUT. It is not his job or responsibility to troubleshoot every quirk a device has.

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post #2400 of 2568 Old 07-03-2020, 03:54 AM
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Putting buggy devices in the marketplace and instead dealing with issues correctly, they chose the 'shoot the messenger' tactic.
The sad part is that this strategy seems to work out just fine. Instead of demanding the promised and paid performance from the manufacturer, customers rather put their fingers in their ears and go "la-la-la" followed by showing hostile behavior towards fellow enthusiasts even when presented with objective facts. Looks like decades of manipulative marketing shows it fruits. It has become more important to buy devices that have all the features the manufacturer wants you to have than being able to buy a bug-free device that fits YOUR needs.

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