16 Channel Prepros at $5000 or less - Page 7 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #181 of 236 Old 10-02-2019, 09:29 AM
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^^^

Not sure if Arcam is going to charge for DiRac Live BM based on email exchange with the folks in the UK.

It is also a possibility that Auromatic will be made available for the platform as well. However they have to keep some space between them and the JBL Synthesis line up.

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post #182 of 236 Old 10-02-2019, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
In my personal experience, my problem with Emotiva are not the bugs, which I had a a ton after the V3 HDMI Board Upgrade on my XMC-1, my problem are the broken promises and delays. When they released the RMC-1, less than 24 hours before start taking pre orders, they announced that it would be out without Dirac Live. Dirac Live would come by Q1 of 2019 via firmware upgrade. Guess what... we are in Q4 of 2019 and no Dirac Live yet. In fact, I would be in shock if they release Dirac this year. So when they say something about future upgrades or possible expansion boards for the RMC-1, I believe them ZERO. My point is: If you go with Emotiva, purchase knowing that you get what you paid for at the moment of the purchase, nothing more. If an upgrade or new feature comes along the way, count it as a blessing, not as a promise who became real.
Exactly this!
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post #183 of 236 Old 10-02-2019, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by mmiles View Post
^^^

Not sure if Arcam is going to charge for DiRac Live BM based on email exchange with the folks in the UK.

It is also a possibility that Auromatic will be made available for the platform as well. However they have to keep some space between them and the JBL Synthesis line up.
If that is the case then AudioControl is the safe choice as we know for sure that Auromatic will be included and Dirac Live BM as well. Of course, there is the $600 difference if we compare the Arcam AVR20 and the AudioControl XR-6.

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post #184 of 236 Old 10-02-2019, 05:15 PM
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^^^

I will attempt to verify.

Keep in mind published MSRP versus what some would refer to as MAP makes up for some of that difference.

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post #185 of 236 Old 10-02-2019, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by mmiles View Post
^^^

I will attempt to verify.

Keep in mind published MSRP versus what some would refer to as MAP makes up for some of that difference.
When you consider the above it boils down to the Arcam AVR 10, entry level so to speak, as well the AV40 at the high end offers better pricing. However when you stay in the “middle” they can be very close.

It’s just me I suppose but if where looking at the AC Maestro X7 one may consider the JBL SYNTHESIS SDP55

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post #186 of 236 Old 10-03-2019, 01:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Snowmanick View Post
Regarding cost, I’m ordering the Arcam AVR 20. The videos on the Arcam launch from CEDIA 2019 all state the processing sections of the 16 channel models is all the same, just with different, or no, amps. If you can live with single ended vs XLR preouts you can save a few hundred USD/GBP with the AVR 20, and brings it even closer to, or lower than, the Emotiva’s price.

I was debating the JBL Synthesis SDP-55, but I’m not really interested in Auro, haven’t heard, so I won’t miss Logic 16, and I’ll just pay the $200 USD for Dirac’s bmm.
Good point. I (unfortunately) have XLR cables and an XLR only power amp though which means it is probably worth the extra £750 (Even though I dont like the way Arcam/Harman take the p*ss with pricing of the AV40). Arcam/Harman Luxury Europe support confirmed the Arcam 16 channel models should get Auro via a firmware update. I had assumed we would pay for the Dirac BM license but would be a bonus if its included.

I also thought about the SDP-55 and X7 but both of these brands carry a high mark up over USA prices in the UK and it just seems like it wont be worth the significant extra cost.
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post #187 of 236 Old 10-03-2019, 01:48 AM
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One of the most important feature IMO is the phone app to control these AVRs/PrePros. It can make or break the whole experience as I use it all the time.

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post #188 of 236 Old 10-03-2019, 02:03 AM
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Is AudioControl a Harman brand?

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post #189 of 236 Old 10-03-2019, 02:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by nonstopdoc1 View Post
One of the most important feature IMO is the phone app to control these AVRs/PrePros. It can make or break the whole experience as I use it all the time.
I found it interesting that even at this price level there are a mix of IR, App and CI Custom users. I believe all of the models listed support all three so no need for it to be added to the comparison. There are likely some differences in the provided CI modules but that seems a bit specialist.

Audio Control is not a Harman brand (AFAIK) but they have a long history of tech sharing with Arcam. For me the major outstanding piece of information for the X7 is which DAC is used. The X9 has the highest spec (On paper) DAC of all of the Arcam variants but it is not clear if the X7 is using the Harman ESS9028, Harman ESS9026 or something else.
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post #190 of 236 Old 10-03-2019, 05:06 AM
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with All of these new processors in the $5k range I hope doors opens for the $10K processors as well. I have decided my next processor is not going to be a Marantz, currently I have a 8805. I am hoping in the 45k - $10k range we will have more of the type of processors that are minimal meaning just networking, true balanced XLR connections no analogs or other fluff and the ability to assign XLR connections to what you want them to be like the trinnov. Something else that confuses me is the voltage of the XLR connection on my amps vs the voltage on the XLR on my 8805 are not the same or even close, what impact does that have on performance? Why is in not uniform?
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post #191 of 236 Old 10-03-2019, 05:39 AM - Thread Starter
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with All of these new processors in the $5k range I hope doors opens for the $10K processors as well. I have decided my next processor is not going to be a Marantz, currently I have a 8805. I am hoping in the 45k - $10k range we will have more of the type of processors that are minimal meaning just networking, true balanced XLR connections no analogs or other fluff and the ability to assign XLR connections to what you want them to be like the trinnov. Something else that confuses me is the voltage of the XLR connection on my amps vs the voltage on the XLR on my 8805 are not the same or even close, what impact does that have on performance? Why is in not uniform?
The new Mk2 Storm Audio units might be worth a look. They are likely using the higher end 24 channel decode / 32 output version of the MDS/TI DSP used in the Monoprice and Arcam. Expect much more flexible speaker assignment, better control and monitoring options and Digital/Dante output version if that suits your setup. They have 5 analogue inputs but nothing else legacy. Due to arrive early 2020 at approx. $20K

Not sure what you mean by the voltage issue. Is the Marantz not putting out enough voltage on the XLRs?
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post #192 of 236 Old 10-03-2019, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Krobar View Post
I found it interesting that even at this price level there are a mix of IR, App and CI Custom users. I believe all of the models listed support all three so no need for it to be added to the comparison. There are likely some differences in the provided CI modules but that seems a bit specialist.

Audio Control is not a Harman brand (AFAIK) but they have a long history of tech sharing with Arcam. For me the major outstanding piece of information for the X7 is which DAC is used. The X9 has the highest spec (On paper) DAC of all of the Arcam variants but it is not clear if the X7 is using the Harman ESS9028, Harman ESS9026 or something else.
ESS9028 and ESS9026 Sabre DAC not Harman DAC

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post #193 of 236 Old 10-03-2019, 11:50 AM - Thread Starter
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ESS9028 and ESS9026 Sabre DAC not Harman DAC
I was being unclear, my bad. I mean the DAC board, it is quite possible Audiocontrol could make their own with the same DAC. Also nopt sure if the 9038 based implementation in the X9 is Audiocontrol's own or something from Harman.
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post #194 of 236 Old 10-03-2019, 12:09 PM
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I (unfortunately) have XLR cables and an XLR only power amp though which means it is probably worth the extra £750

Or you can use adapters or cables terminated with the connectors you need.

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post #195 of 236 Old 10-03-2019, 11:34 PM
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Audiocontrol X9
Variant Of: Arcam AV40
Differences:
Analogue In: 6 RCA, 2 XLR
Auro 3D: Yes
DAC: ESS9038 Pro for every 8 Channels
Price USA: $9600
Price UK: ?
Release Date: December 2019
Audiocontrol X9? For Price USA: $9600? What a price for an audio control. Do you guys think this price is expensive already for an audio control?
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post #196 of 236 Old 10-04-2019, 11:11 AM
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I would steer clear of Arcam, they don't even understand bass management ^^.

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post #197 of 236 Old 10-05-2019, 04:10 AM - Thread Starter
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I would steer clear of Arcam, they don't even understand bass management ^^.
The other Arcam variants would almost certainly have the problem if the Arcam suffers it but I think they learnt their lesson and other than that the last Arcam was a good unit.

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post #198 of 236 Old 10-07-2019, 04:00 PM
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I would steer clear of Arcam, they don't even understand bass management ^^.
Well there haven't been too many alternatives have there? Both the Emotiva and NAD are completely broken in their own ways and there is basically nothing else out there with Dirac. Also basically any AVR anyone has ever spent the time looking into there have been issues. I've owned two Marantz units in the past which have both had MAJOR issues no one seems to be talking about but I guess no one looked that close either. AVRs still have some way to go so let's hope for the best with these new 16 channel units.

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post #199 of 236 Old 10-07-2019, 04:34 PM
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Well there haven't been too many alternatives have there? Both the Emotiva and NAD are completely broken in their own ways and there is basically nothing else out there with Dirac. Also basically any AVR anyone has ever spent the time looking into there have been issues. I've owned two Marantz units in the past which have both had MAJOR issues no one seems to be talking about but I guess no one looked that close either. AVRs still have some way to go so let's hope for the best with these new 16 channel units.
Curious, what two big issues have you had with Marantz? My last two processors Denon 4520CI and Denon x7200wa have both had pretty good firmware, with minimal issues. Denon and Marantz are effectively the same thing. I'm curious what I've missed.

I know of one outstanding firmware issue with the Denon x7200wa - That when you run two different pairs of front L and R speakers the Audyssey calibration is applied to both speakers, but only measured on the main pair - which is a bad mistake because you are applying the primary pair of speakers EQ to the second pair of speakers too and it should have NO EQ applied or the proper EQ applied if it were measured separately. I've reported it to Denon via case 170330-000293
They acknowledged they could replicate in their labs, but to my knowledge haven't fixed it. It's probably such a small population that would be affected by it they don't care. I've never checked myself to see if the problem still exists - it was just something i was testing one time when I wanted to have a dedicated pair of speakers for stereo listening that differed from my cinema set. (and was a feature they advertised)


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post #200 of 236 Old 10-07-2019, 04:41 PM
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I would steer clear of Arcam, they don't even understand bass management ^^.
I was an early adopter. They have learned their lesson.

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post #201 of 236 Old 10-08-2019, 04:18 AM
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Curious, what two big issues have you had with Marantz? My last two processors Denon 4520CI and Denon x7200wa have both had pretty good firmware, with minimal issues. Denon and Marantz are effectively the same thing. I'm curious what I've missed.

I know of one outstanding firmware issue with the Denon x7200wa - That when you run two different pairs of front L and R speakers the Audyssey calibration is applied to both speakers, but only measured on the main pair - which is a bad mistake because you are applying the primary pair of speakers EQ to the second pair of speakers too and it should have NO EQ applied or the proper EQ applied if it were measured separately. I've reported it to Denon via case 170330-000293
They acknowledged they could replicate in their labs, but to my knowledge haven't fixed it. It's probably such a small population that would be affected by it they don't care. I've never checked myself to see if the problem still exists - it was just something i was testing one time when I wanted to have a dedicated pair of speakers for stereo listening that differed from my cinema set. (and was a feature they advertised)



I had issues where there would be channel imbalances on pre-outs so imaging would be off by quite a lot. I've also had issues of channels stop working all together where a device reset would fix the issue for a while. Also have had HDMI stop working and changing sources would generate loud pops in my speakers. So probably hardware related but since device reset would fix some issues it feels like it might have been connected to firmware as well. I had these issues on both 7005 and 5011 I believe it was. Was a few years back so don't quite remember.

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Was there any dates when the Arcam or JBL would be released? They’re now on my short list.
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post #203 of 236 Old 10-08-2019, 11:49 AM
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I believe JBL is 1Q 2020

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post #204 of 236 Old 10-08-2019, 12:00 PM
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Arcam, end of October. AudioControl, end of November and JBL Q1 2020.

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post #205 of 236 Old 10-10-2019, 12:21 AM
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I just had a reply from Arcam support with regards to DTS:X Pro. It will not be available at launch and no decision has been made if it will be added at a later date either.

I hope they come to their senses and commit to add it as a firmware update.

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post #206 of 236 Old 10-10-2019, 09:01 AM
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What are they thinking?!

Seems to me that the prospective customer for a 16 ch processor is exactly who would demand DTS:X Pro.

They're off my shortlist w/o it.


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I just had a reply from Arcam support with regards to DTS:X Pro. It will not be available at launch and no decision has been made if it will be added at a later date either.

I hope they come to their senses and commit to add it as a firmware update.
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post #207 of 236 Old 10-10-2019, 09:10 AM
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They're off my shortlist w/o it.
They should be off everyone's shortlist until they offer an upgrade to HDMI 2.1, or at least "promise" one.
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post #208 of 236 Old 10-10-2019, 09:56 AM
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They should be off everyone's shortlist until they offer an upgrade to HDMI 2.1, or at least "promise" one.
Depending on how many source devices you have with HDMI 2.1 bandwidth this will be less of an issue if your display device has multiple inputs and eARC.

Really I wish all the video switching was removed from the audio processor. Let the display switch video so you don't have to replace your audio processor every time video standards and HDMI get updated.

As I understand it one of the highest priced items in the AVP is the HDMI board. Completely unnecessary in an audio processor (with eARC or another 10-20 year standard to get audio from the display to the processor). And we're paying twice. Once for the HDMI 2.1 switch in the display and again in the AVP.

Another benefit is better quality audio due to less interference from the HDMI board in the AVP.

I get this doesn't work for folks with a remotely located AV rack. But at that point I think it makes more sense to have a separate video processor (switch inputs, 3dlut calibration, etc) and audio processor.
CHA and philipbtz like this.

Last edited by dwaleke; 10-10-2019 at 10:05 AM.
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post #209 of 236 Old 10-11-2019, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by sbquart View Post
Was there any dates when the Arcam or JBL would be released? They’re now on my short list.
With the JBL the guy from Harmon in one of the CEDIA youtube videos was saying SDP-55 release January.
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post #210 of 236 Old 10-18-2019, 10:05 PM
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Does anyone think the Arcam or JBL will support multi sub Calibration with the new Dirac? I still only see one sub out with XLR while the second is RCA on both.
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