Do I need an amp? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 28 Old 09-15-2019, 05:32 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
genaccmiller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 966
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 494 Post(s)
Liked: 57
Do I need an amp?

Folks - building out my theater room. I have three JBL studio 590s for LCR, two 580s for surrounds and a Denon 4400h receiver. It is a very small room with size about 12x13. I am also prewiring for two Atmos and two rear surrounds. Do I need an amp to take over the load from my Denon and if so what amp would you recommend around $500?

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

Last edited by genaccmiller; 09-15-2019 at 05:41 PM.
genaccmiller is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 28 Old 09-15-2019, 05:41 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
m0j0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,537
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 600 Post(s)
Liked: 597
Quote:
Originally Posted by genaccmiller View Post
Folks - building out my theater room. I have three JBL studio 590s for LCR, two 580s for rears and a Denon 4400h receiver. It is a very small room with size about 12x13. I am also prewiring for two Atmos and two rear surrounds. Do I need an amp to take over the load from my Denon and if so what amp would you recommend around $500?

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk
Your receiver can probably handle that setup without an amp, but you may want to go easy on it and add a two or three channel amp for the front 3 speakers. I have a Denon 4400 as well and added a 5 channel Outlaw 5000, with three channels powering my LCR and the other two channels powering my two BOSS mini risers.
m0j0 is online now  
post #3 of 28 Old 09-15-2019, 05:43 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
genaccmiller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 966
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 494 Post(s)
Liked: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by m0j0 View Post
Your receiver can probably handle that setup without an amp, but you may want to go easy on it and add a two or three channel amp for the front 3 speakers. I have a Denon 4400 as well and added a 5 channel Outlaw 5000, with three channels powering my LCR and the other two channels powering my two BOSS mini risers.
I don't think that particular model is available at the price range I am targeting. Any recommendations?

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk
genaccmiller is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 28 Old 09-15-2019, 05:47 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
m0j0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,537
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 600 Post(s)
Liked: 597
Quote:
Originally Posted by genaccmillerz View Post
I don't think that particular model is available at the price range I am targeting. Any recommendations?

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk
I got mine as a B Stock under 600 I believe, so pretty close. No other recommendations as that’s the only one I have experience with but it runs cold and quiet and gives plenty of power so I can highly recommend it.
m0j0 is online now  
post #5 of 28 Old 09-15-2019, 09:34 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
afrogt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 27,650
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2177 Post(s)
Liked: 1442
Quote:
I am also prewiring for two Atmos and two rear surrounds.
I think you should prewire for four Atmos speakers instead and two Atmos and two surrounds.

Afro GT
afrogt is offline  
post #6 of 28 Old 09-16-2019, 08:13 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
genaccmiller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 966
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 494 Post(s)
Liked: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by afrogt View Post
I think you should prewire for four Atmos speakers instead and two Atmos and two surrounds.
I have two Atmos and 4 surrounds which is split between 2 surrounds and 2 rear surrounds. Are you saying to have 4 Atmos (i.e. 2 additional) plus the current 4 surrounds I have wired for?

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk
genaccmiller is online now  
post #7 of 28 Old 09-16-2019, 08:43 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
afrogt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 27,650
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2177 Post(s)
Liked: 1442
what I'm saying is that's is better to have 5.1.4 than 7.1.2 especially in a room that size.

But since the x4400 can actually do 7.1.4 why not wire your room for 4 overhead Atmos speakers? then you can try multiple configurations and settle on whatever you like best.

Afro GT
afrogt is offline  
post #8 of 28 Old 09-16-2019, 10:01 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
genaccmiller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 966
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 494 Post(s)
Liked: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by afrogt View Post
what I'm saying is that's is better to have 5.1.4 than 7.1.2 especially in a room that size.



But since the x4400 can actually do 7.1.4 why not wire your room for 4 overhead Atmos speakers? then you can try multiple configurations and settle on whatever you like best.
Yes I can try this. Do I still need an amp?

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk
genaccmiller is online now  
post #9 of 28 Old 09-16-2019, 12:16 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
bobknavs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Danbury, CT, USA
Posts: 4,610
Mentioned: 52 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2334 Post(s)
Liked: 1663
Quote:
Originally Posted by genaccmiller View Post
Yes I can try this. Do I still need an amp?

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk
I may be answering the wrong question, but...

If you go to 7.1.4, you'd need to add an external stereo amp, because the 4400 only has 9 onboard amps. (It can process 11 channels, though.) If you use it for rear Atmos speakers, it might not have to be very powerful.

Audiosource AMP100VS or AD1002, and the Dayton APA102BT, are examples. (All 3 have 12V triggers, which I prefer as the means to power up the amp when the AVR is turned on.)
bobknavs is offline  
post #10 of 28 Old 09-16-2019, 12:18 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
genaccmiller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 966
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 494 Post(s)
Liked: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobknavs View Post
I may be answering the wrong question, but...



If you go to 7.1.4, you'd need to add an external stereo amp, because the 4400 only has 9 onboard amps. (It can process 11 channels, though.) If you use it for rear Atmos speakers, it might not have to be very powerful.



Audiosource AMP100VS or AD1002, and the Dayton APA102BT, are examples. (All 3 have 12V triggers, which I prefer as the means to power up the amp when the AVR is turned on.)
So if I don't want to invest in an amp at this time (perhaps a later expense), how many channels (and which ones) should I have my Denon drive for an optimal experience? It's a very small room. So I want to start small and expand later if needed. So looking for most optimal set up without an amp.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

Last edited by genaccmiller; 09-16-2019 at 12:21 PM.
genaccmiller is online now  
post #11 of 28 Old 09-16-2019, 12:35 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
afrogt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 27,650
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2177 Post(s)
Liked: 1442
Let your Denon drive all 9 channels in a 5.1.4 or 7.1.2 setup. Your JBL 590's have a 92db sensitivity so they don't need much power to drive them to loud volumes.

If you decide you need a 7.1.4 setup then get the audiosource amp that was mentioned above. But you said it is a small room so 9 speakers should be enough.

Where are you placing the 580's for surrounds? Surround back should be 2 feet above and behind the main listening position but you have towers so I don't see you doing that unless they are on pedestals.

https://www.crutchfield.com/S-lWHcAj...placement.html

Afro GT
afrogt is offline  
post #12 of 28 Old 09-16-2019, 02:11 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
genaccmiller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 966
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 494 Post(s)
Liked: 57
Left and right surrounds would be exactly on left and right of the couch. This is what I am going to use the 580s for. In addition I have two Martin Logan's that I could wall mount behind my seating. As the attached picture shows I have already anchored a mount there to put up the two if I go with a 7.x configuration. This would mean I cannot use Atmos with JUST my Denon. I have prewired for two Atmos. It's highly unlikely I will use the Atmos though given the small room. Do I need to wire for another two Atmos or can I call it a day with the wiring done for 7.2.2?

Link to my build thread - https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/top...ink_source=app



Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

Last edited by genaccmiller; 09-16-2019 at 02:17 PM.
genaccmiller is online now  
post #13 of 28 Old 09-16-2019, 02:38 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
afrogt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 27,650
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2177 Post(s)
Liked: 1442
It's your room, if you want to go with 7.2.2. instead of 5.2.4 so be it.

Enjoy

Afro GT
afrogt is offline  
post #14 of 28 Old 09-16-2019, 02:45 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
genaccmiller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 966
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 494 Post(s)
Liked: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by afrogt View Post
It's your room, if you want to go with 7.2.2. instead of 5.2.4 so be it.



Enjoy
Disregarding the sub, I assume I don't need to get an amp with this set up. Between 7.x.2 vs 5.x.4 or 5.x.2 is there a preference? If I go with 5.x.x setup will the speakers to the side be positioned correctly if they are exactly on left and right of seating location?

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk
genaccmiller is online now  
post #15 of 28 Old 09-16-2019, 02:52 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
afrogt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 27,650
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2177 Post(s)
Liked: 1442
I wouldn't buy an amp until you're sure you need more power.

Quote:
Between 7.x.2 vs 5.x.4 or 5.x.2 is there a preference?
the preference is 5.x.4 You'll get full immersion with 4 overhead/Atmos speakers rather than 2 rear channels and 2 Atmos.

5.1 surrounds should be on each side of main listening position no matter if it is 7.x.2, 5.x.4 or 5.x.2

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/15-ge...4-7-2-2-a.html

Afro GT
afrogt is offline  
post #16 of 28 Old 09-16-2019, 03:08 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
genaccmiller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 966
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 494 Post(s)
Liked: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by afrogt View Post
I wouldn't buy an amp until you're sure you need more power.







the preference is 5.x.4 You'll get full immersion with 4 overhead/Atmos speakers rather than 2 rear channels and 2 Atmos.



5.1 surrounds should be on each side of main listening position no matter if it is 7.x.2, 5.x.4 or 5.x.2



https://www.avsforum.com/forum/15-ge...4-7-2-2-a.html
I can use the Dolby set up guide for 7.2.4 position and wire them up but can use the 5.2.4 to listen while starting since it can be accommodated by my receiver without a need for a new amp.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk
genaccmiller is online now  
post #17 of 28 Old 09-16-2019, 03:20 PM
Advanced Member
 
Liquid$team's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 520
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 222 Post(s)
Liked: 111
Try it out with the AVR alone first. Then (If you so desire) add a 3 channel AMP for the LCR speakers and listen for a difference. You may be able to save yourself $500 if you don't hear a difference. Just make sure you buy an AMP you can return if you feel you don't need it. The Emotiva A-500 is around $500 and has 80 watts x5 all channels driven. Or the A-300 is 150 watts x2 around $400. Just as an example


My old set up had 2 Onkyo 2 channel amplifiers running my 4 surrounds and the Onkyo AVR running the LCR..... when I was upgrading everything I sold the 2 amplifiers first and besides turning up the volume a couple notches I didn't notice any change in the sound. My room is also small like yours so maybe you won't need the AMP at all?

Projector:Epson 6050ub Screen:Elite screens manual SRM Pro series 120" TV: Vizio P75f Pre/Pro:Marantz AV7705 Amplifier:Monolith 7x and Emotiva A-700 for ATMOSSpeakers:Klipsch THX8000-L (LCR) R5800 side surrounds, 5650-S rear surrounds Klipsch 5800-C for ATMOSSubwoofers:PSA v1811x2 Bluray Player:Panasonic ub820 Media Streamer:Fire TV cube
Liquid$team is offline  
post #18 of 28 Old 09-16-2019, 03:57 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
afrogt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 27,650
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2177 Post(s)
Liked: 1442
Quote:
Originally Posted by genaccmiller View Post
I can use the Dolby set up guide for 7.2.4 position and wire them up but can use the 5.2.4 to listen while starting since it can be accommodated by my receiver without a need for a new amp.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk
Yep, I suggested that in post #7 ...

Afro GT
afrogt is offline  
post #19 of 28 Old 09-16-2019, 04:01 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
genaccmiller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 966
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 494 Post(s)
Liked: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by afrogt View Post
Yep, I suggested that in post #7 ...
Thank you.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk
genaccmiller is online now  
post #20 of 28 Old 09-16-2019, 04:01 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
genaccmiller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 966
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 494 Post(s)
Liked: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid$team View Post
Try it out with the AVR alone first. Then (If you so desire) add a 3 channel AMP for the LCR speakers and listen for a difference. You may be able to save yourself $500 if you don't hear a difference. Just make sure you buy an AMP you can return if you feel you don't need it. The Emotiva A-500 is around $500 and has 80 watts x5 all channels driven. Or the A-300 is 150 watts x2 around $400. Just as an example





My old set up had 2 Onkyo 2 channel amplifiers running my 4 surrounds and the Onkyo AVR running the LCR..... when I was upgrading everything I sold the 2 amplifiers first and besides turning up the volume a couple notches I didn't notice any change in the sound. My room is also small like yours so maybe you won't need the AMP at all?
Thank you.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk
genaccmiller is online now  
post #21 of 28 Old 09-16-2019, 04:19 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
torii's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 7,241
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3592 Post(s)
Liked: 2026
I upgraded my avr amp to nad amps bridged and gained around 6db spl....most would say that is not a worthy 2 grand upgrade.

Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5, Magnepan LRS
Subs: Rythmik FV25HP, Rythmik FV15HP
torii is offline  
post #22 of 28 Old 09-16-2019, 05:39 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
m0j0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,537
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 600 Post(s)
Liked: 597
I would also recommend the 5.x.4 over the 7.x.2 setup if you don’t plan to add an amp right way, but you should pre-wire for the full 7.x.4 setup if possible to give yourself options down the road. I have the same size room and really enjoy the 7.x.4 setup, but I didn’t start out that way. I went 5.1, then 5.1.2, then 5.1.4 and eventually 7.1.4.
m0j0 is online now  
post #23 of 28 Old 09-16-2019, 05:44 PM
Advanced Member
 
Liquid$team's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 520
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 222 Post(s)
Liked: 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by m0j0 View Post
I would also recommend the 5.x.4 over the 7.x.2 setup if you don’t plan to add an amp right way, but you should pre-wire for the full 7.x.4 setup if possible to give yourself options down the road. I have the same size room and really enjoy the 7.x.4 setup, but I didn’t start out that way. I went 5.1, then 5.1.2, then 5.1.4 and eventually 7.1.4.
Agreed on the wiring aspect. I started with a 5.2 system 10 years ago and adding the wiring for the 6 speakers that brought me up to 7.2.4 was a little messy and annoying lol. I actually had a stop over at 6.2 for a few years... then when I decided to go with atmos and 4K I realized the 6.2 setup was a dinosaur

Projector:Epson 6050ub Screen:Elite screens manual SRM Pro series 120" TV: Vizio P75f Pre/Pro:Marantz AV7705 Amplifier:Monolith 7x and Emotiva A-700 for ATMOSSpeakers:Klipsch THX8000-L (LCR) R5800 side surrounds, 5650-S rear surrounds Klipsch 5800-C for ATMOSSubwoofers:PSA v1811x2 Bluray Player:Panasonic ub820 Media Streamer:Fire TV cube
Liquid$team is offline  
post #24 of 28 Old 09-16-2019, 10:40 PM
Senior Member
 
355F1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Arizona
Posts: 298
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 176 Post(s)
Liked: 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by m0j0 View Post
I have a Denon 4400 as well and added a 5 channel Outlaw 5000, with three channels powering my LCR and the other two channels powering my two BOSS mini risers.
Notice a big difference with the OUtlaw?

😎It's just life, dude. We are all gonna die sometime--Might as well try and have a kickass time while we're still here.😜
355F1 is online now  
post #25 of 28 Old 09-17-2019, 03:23 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
genaccmiller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 966
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 494 Post(s)
Liked: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by m0j0 View Post
I would also recommend the 5.x.4 over the 7.x.2 setup if you don’t plan to add an amp right way, but you should pre-wire for the full 7.x.4 setup if possible to give yourself options down the road. I have the same size room and really enjoy the 7.x.4 setup, but I didn’t start out that way. I went 5.1, then 5.1.2, then 5.1.4 and eventually 7.1.4.
I have already wired for the 7. I had only wired for 2 Atmos. It looks like I need to wire for 4 based on what I am seeing here. My spacing is kind of limited. the front couple of ceiling joists are blocked with pipes etc preventing the wiring from ending there. So I used the next available joist for the 2 speakers but am now being told I need to measure my screen, seating distance etc. Not sure how much flexibility is there with the room constraint.

Some pictures attached to show room constraint.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

Last edited by genaccmiller; 09-17-2019 at 04:35 AM.
genaccmiller is online now  
post #26 of 28 Old 09-17-2019, 04:27 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
m0j0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,537
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 600 Post(s)
Liked: 597
Quote:
Originally Posted by genaccmiller View Post
I have already wired for the 7. I had only wired for 2 Atmos. It looks like I need to wire for 4 based on what I am seeing here. My spacing is kind of limited. the front couple of ceiling joists are blocked with pipes etc preventing the wiring from ending there. So I used the next available joist for the 2 speakers but am now being told I need to measure my screen, seating distance etc. Not sure how much flexibility is there with the room constraint.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

You could also run wiring on the front and back walls towards the top and go with a front height / rear height atmos setup if the ceiling locations don't work for you. That's how I have my setup and I am pretty happy with it.
m0j0 is online now  
post #27 of 28 Old 09-17-2019, 04:29 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
m0j0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,537
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 600 Post(s)
Liked: 597
Quote:
Originally Posted by 355F1 View Post
Notice a big difference with the OUtlaw?

I have Polk LSiM's all around and yes, the Outlaw makes quite a difference as these speakers need power and sound like different speakers with the Outlaw vs. just the Denon powering them.
m0j0 is online now  
post #28 of 28 Old 09-17-2019, 04:36 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
genaccmiller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 966
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 494 Post(s)
Liked: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by m0j0 View Post
You could also run wiring on the front and back walls towards the top and go with a front height / rear height atmos setup if the ceiling locations don't work for you. That's how I have my setup and I am pretty happy with it.
Attached some pics on previous post.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk
genaccmiller is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Receivers, Amps, and Processors

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off