This makes no sense! Onkyo better than Marantz? - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 62 Old 09-18-2019, 06:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gus Rodeen View Post
...My process is: hook everything up then do a manual calibration first...

How are you connecting to the AVR? HDMI? TOSLink/SPDIF? Analog input?

What software are you using to generate signals to calibrate the levels?

What mic are you using to measure levels with?
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post #32 of 62 Old 09-19-2019, 12:35 AM
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Originally Posted by M Code View Post
When the Master Volume is set to 0dB and all channel trims are are set to 0dB, then a 1V(rms) @1KHz test signal is injected through a source input jack,

the AVR should be outputting its rated power into 8 Ohms.... What SPL is measured through loudspeaker totally depends upon the room, distance from the loudspeaker and sensitivity specification of the loudspeaker used.



Just my $0.02...

0dB is not the max though, there is still up to +16 or +18dB or something like that.
0dB no trim would be before its calibrated to a reference level so what you get is uncertain yes.


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post #33 of 62 Old 09-19-2019, 12:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leeliemix View Post
0dB is not the max though, there is still up to +16 or +18dB or something like that.
0dB no trim would be before its calibrated to a reference level so what you get is uncertain yes.


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I didn't say 0dB was max output...
I explained how the master volume is calculated and designed. Yes it goes higher depending upon the peak headroom available..

Just my $0.02...
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post #34 of 62 Old 09-19-2019, 04:42 AM
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I find it funny that I had the exact opposite experience. I used to listen to my Marantz SR7009 at -40, -30; -20 for movies was getting close to too loud for me. Now I have an Onkyo NR787 and I have to listen to it between -25 to -15 to get the same loudness I had with the Marantz.



I found this very annoying too as you have.
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post #35 of 62 Old 09-19-2019, 06:03 AM
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Originally Posted by LeoRavus View Post
This forum seems to be filled with Denon fanboys but to each his own. The Onkyo HDMI issues seem to have been fixed with the 2019 models.
I hear the same thing every year. Onkyo has fixed their HDMI issues. It takes years for their HDMI issues to show up.

Onkyo has earned their bad reputation IMO.
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post #36 of 62 Old 09-19-2019, 06:05 AM
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I don't see the point of making adjustments before running audyssey. Audyssey is going to reset everything.
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post #37 of 62 Old 09-19-2019, 07:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Update:

Just want to thank everyone for their comments and replies to this post.

Some of this discussion is simply over my head as I am not as educated in audio as others. That being said, this is my resolution....

After reading a few posts, I went home yesterday and started the test tones again. This was with the audyssey settings in place. At -25dB master volume and my left speaker at +3.5dB (set by Audyssey previously) my SPL meter was reading in the low 50's. As instructed by those in this thread, I turned the master volume up to 0dB. At this volume, my SPL meter was at 80dB. So, it seems this receiver can and does get as loud as my previous Onkyo NR787. I just had to adjust the master volume in the "test tones" area prior to adjusting trim levels.

I think my confusion on this is because on the Onkyo, you cannot increase the master volume while you're listening to test tones in the setup area. I assume that it defaults to 0dB and this is why I thought is was louder and more powerful from the start. Also, prior to my Onkyo, I had a Pioneer Elite AVR that did the same thing, so when the Marantz seemed quieter than the prior to AVR's, I immediately was confused and discouraged. Basically, it all came down to manual master volume settings within the test tone/level setting from one AVR to the other.

Additionally, I am happier with the Marantz SR6013 over the Onkyo NR787 for a couple reasons. First, the sound separation on Atmos tracks are clearer and more distinct. Even on non-Atmos tracks I hear subtle sounds that I never remember hearing before. Second, the audio delay... there is none. I had terrible audio delay from one source to another with my Onkyo. I was constantly adjusting the delay and it was the worst and most notable on the Xbox One S 4k Player. Most forums will say this is an Xbox issue and it may be, but the Marantz has zero delay, so take that for what it is.

In the end, it seems I still need to go a bit higher on the volume scale with the Marantz, but I'm ok with that if it means cleaner and more separated audio. Thanks again everyone.
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post #38 of 62 Old 09-19-2019, 07:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post
I hear the same thing every year. Onkyo has fixed their HDMI issues. It takes years for their HDMI issues to show up.

Onkyo has earned their bad reputation IMO.
It was actually one of their selling points with the 2019 models, advertised in the description.

Time will tell how it goes, but as of now I'm really preferring the sound over the Denon I had.
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post #39 of 62 Old 09-19-2019, 07:59 AM
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I have an onkyo 606 or something with the bad hdmi boards...it has a wonderful sound which I enjoy over my 3x yamaha avr's and my marantz avr. my next avr might be an onkyo again.

Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300
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post #40 of 62 Old 09-19-2019, 08:40 AM
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What I really prefer about the Onkyo TX-NR696 I have now over the Denon AVR-X2500H I had is the sound quality at low volume levels.

With the Denon, I had to crank it to really get satisfying sound. At low levels, it felt like drinking flat soda. Sort of muffled, not satisfying at all. I played with settings for 2 weeks and couldn't get it where I wanted.

With the Onkyo, it was pretty much satisfying out of the box. After an hour or 2 of tweaking I was happy. I guess everyone will have their preferences. Both are great brands.
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Last edited by LeoRavus; 09-19-2019 at 08:44 AM.
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post #41 of 62 Old 09-19-2019, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoRavus View Post
It was actually one of their selling points with the 2019 models, advertised in the description.

Time will tell how it goes, but as of now I'm really preferring the sound over the Denon I had.
They advertised that they've finally solved their HDMI issues after 15 years?
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post #42 of 62 Old 09-19-2019, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post
They advertised that they've finally solved their HDMI issues after 15 years?
Whatever "refined HDMI grounds" means. That's in the Amazon description for the 696.

I gave them a shot anyway. My old Onkyo didn't have HDMI so I have no experience with it failing. Obviously they're still in business so it can't be a complete disaster.

Last edited by LeoRavus; 09-19-2019 at 09:08 PM.
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post #43 of 62 Old 09-19-2019, 10:49 AM
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I had an Onkyo 885 Pre/Pro that had the HDMI board quit working year ago. I'm not sure if it quit because it was an Onkyo or if a surge got it.


A surge hit my house a couple of years ago and it killed any HDMI port that had anything plugged into it, so my Anthem receiver doesn't do HDMI anymore, and every TV in the house is down one HDMI port.

7.4.4 Theater Room: JVC-RS46U, Silver Ticket AT 2.35:1 142”, Onkyo RZ830, Anthem PVA-7, Panasonic DBT-110, JBL Studio 270’s, 4 - 15" DIY Sealed Subs

3.1 Living Room: Samsung 64” F8500 Plasma, Anthem MRX 300, Dynaudio Audience 52’s, Dynaudio Audience 122C, NHT SubOne
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post #44 of 62 Old 09-19-2019, 10:54 AM
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onkyo was a huge rage back then until hdmi board failures. then audyssey room correction hit and stole the show. I keep trying to like room correction, but its not necessary if you learn to use rew and position speakers.

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post #45 of 62 Old 09-19-2019, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by torii View Post
onkyo was a huge rage back then until hdmi board failures. then audyssey room correction hit and stole the show. I keep trying to like room correction, but its not necessary if you learn to use rew and position speakers.
AND treat the room.
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post #46 of 62 Old 09-19-2019, 02:16 PM
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I prefer Onkyo over Denon/Marantz. Why is this such a shocker? Yes, Onkyo had a run of bad HDMI boards. Its over and they fixed it. My 1100z is rock solid. Audyssey receives high praise here, but I prefer AccuEq.
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post #47 of 62 Old 09-19-2019, 05:55 PM
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Past HDMI issues aside, Ive found onkyo and harman kardon to sound the best in the receiver landscape.

2000 watts of power and climbing

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post #48 of 62 Old 09-19-2019, 06:26 PM
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Good lord you guys crack me up. OP has a problem with his marantz. Assumes the amps are poor quality and poorly engineered. Others jump on the bandwagon and trash marantz. But the OP was making a simple setup mistake and there is nothing wrong with the marantz, and he in fact prefers its sound to his onkyo.
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post #49 of 62 Old 09-19-2019, 07:37 PM
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I noticed the same thing upgrading from an Onkyo TX-SR606 to a Denon X3300W. The Denon sounded much more tame and has to be turned up to -10db or so to sound satisfying. The Denon also set all of my speaker trims higher which I thought was odd considering it's supposed to have more power than my Onkyo. I was watching Godzilla KOTM this past weekend and had to turn it to -8db because it just was not getting loud enough. Almost like there was some sort of internal compression going on even though I have all DRC options off.
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post #50 of 62 Old 09-20-2019, 06:00 AM
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Originally Posted by wk11793 View Post
I noticed the same thing upgrading from an Onkyo TX-SR606 to a Denon X3300W. The Denon sounded much more tame and has to be turned up to -10db or so to sound satisfying. The Denon also set all of my speaker trims higher which I thought was odd considering it's supposed to have more power than my Onkyo. I was watching Godzilla KOTM this past weekend and had to turn it to -8db because it just was not getting loud enough. Almost like there was some sort of internal compression going on even though I have all DRC options off.


Trims have nothing to do with power.
Are you sure the movie wasnt just mastered that way, they differ wildly in volume. I havent seen the movie but some movies i have to up the volume a lot more to get comparable levels.


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post #51 of 62 Old 09-20-2019, 07:39 AM
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My Yamaha RX-V381 YPAO doesn't set reference level, for example, and I have to use external files and SPL meter.

Also, the EQ has too few frequency sliders, but I don't care about that anyway and leave it off.

For curiosity, I measured the voltage output of the AVR and, with a full scale sine wave in DTS-HD Master Audio with Dialnorm -31, channel trims and input trim at 0 dB, I already get voltage compression once pushing beyond 0 dB of master volume.

Which means that, if you need to setup you AVR beyond 0 dB for channels and master volume, you're not getting the full dynamic range of the soundtrack.
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post #52 of 62 Old 09-20-2019, 11:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by djp2k7 View Post
Good lord you guys crack me up. OP has a problem with his marantz. Assumes the amps are poor quality and poorly engineered. Others jump on the bandwagon and trash marantz. But the OP was making a simple setup mistake and there is nothing wrong with the marantz, and he in fact prefers its sound to his onkyo.
Right? haha...

I was just trying to understand the issue and this turned into a Marantz/Denon/Audyssey bashing thread.

That was never my intention, but this really is always going to come down to personal preference. There are so many factors to figure into these discussions that it's hard to make an informed decision at times.

However, I'm still thankful spaces like this exist. For the most part, they're usually helpful.
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post #53 of 62 Old 09-20-2019, 11:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by wk11793 View Post
I noticed the same thing upgrading from an Onkyo TX-SR606 to a Denon X3300W. The Denon sounded much more tame and has to be turned up to -10db or so to sound satisfying. The Denon also set all of my speaker trims higher which I thought was odd considering it's supposed to have more power than my Onkyo. I was watching Godzilla KOTM this past weekend and had to turn it to -8db because it just was not getting loud enough. Almost like there was some sort of internal compression going on even though I have all DRC options off.
Same here. My Marantz has to be turned up a bit more, but after listening to the Atmos effects of the "I know Kung Fu" Matrix scene in the dojo, I noticed so much more separation than my Onkyo provided. The Onkyo "seemed" to have more power, but I'd rather have to bump the volume up a few notches if that means getting what I personally hear as "better" sound. Another place I noticed a difference was in music. I don't have a lossless source, only Spotify, but it sounds better in a fuller sense than my Onkyo did.

Have you noticed these same traits in your Denon over the Onkyo?

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post #54 of 62 Old 09-20-2019, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Gus Rodeen View Post
Same here. My Marantz has to be turned up a bit more, but after listening to the Atmos effects of the "I know Kung Fu" Matrix scene in the dojo, I noticed so much more separation than my Onkyo provided. The Onkyo "seemed" to have more power, but I'd rather have to bump the volume up a few notches if that means getting what I personally hear as "better" sound. Another place I noticed a difference was in music. I don't have a lossless source, only Spotify, but it sounds better in a fuller sense than my Onkyo did.

Have you noticed these same traits in your Denon over the Onkyo?
I've noticed surround effects are better, more natural and three dimensional on the Denon. Also less harsh than the Onkyo. I also didn't have Atmos on the Onkyo.

It could very well be I just need to increase the volume, I found I wasn't really enjoying the Denon until I started listening at -10db or so. It just seems weird with some people saying -20db is too loud for them that I would need to increase it that much. I'm about 9 feet away from the speakers and it's a relatively small space (did I also mention all my speakers are Klipsch?) I also find it sounds louder when I first start up a movie but by the climax it seems lacking. Maybe it's just my ears getting used the volume.

I really can't help but wonder though if there is some internal limiter kicking on that's applying dynamic range compression because honestly that's what it sounds like. The unit also had an issue when I first got it where loudness management wasn't showing in the menu and it was on by default. Had to do a factory reset to fix it.
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post #55 of 62 Old 09-21-2019, 06:45 AM
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My Onkyo TX-NR3010 doesn't care what master volume you are at when you use manual test tones, it always puts them out at the exact same level (I believe 75db). My Marantz SR8012 varies the level of the manual test tones depending on what you currently have the master volume level set to.

I prefer the way Onkyo does this. I also greatly prefer Onkyo's menu, it gives me more fine control over surround sound formats per input and settings within a surround format.


If I could get the build quality, DACs, power, and features of the Marantz with the menu settings of the Onkyo, I'd have the ultimate receiver.
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post #56 of 62 Old 09-21-2019, 07:14 AM
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I really like the way denon/marantz do it with a variable test tone because i dont want the loud noise when i tweak or just check levels, i really really hate that loud noise when its not absolutly needed. Ofc they could have done a test tone start and stop button to click while looking at the levels.
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post #57 of 62 Old 09-21-2019, 07:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leeliemix View Post
I really like the way denon/marantz do it with a variable test tone because i dont want the loud noise when i tweak or just check levels, i really really hate that loud noise when its not absolutly needed. Ofc they could have done a test tone start and stop button to click while looking at the levels.
I agree with that. Denon's test tones are so much more pleasant than Onkyo's harsh static tones.

I was hoping they changed that since the 15 year old model I had, but amazingly it's the same. PSSSSSSSSCHHHHH!

Come on, Onkyo. Why is this still a thing? It's almost a startling experience.
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post #58 of 62 Old 09-23-2019, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by dwaleke View Post
If using avr test tones I'd follow this procedure.

Set the AVR master volume to 0db. Play test tones and then adjust your speaker trims until you measure 75db at your main listening position for each speaker.
I have an older Onkyo TX-NR509 that doesn't display the volume db, only absolute scale from 0 to 82. What would be the best way to calibrate my levels? I guess the most important part is that all speakers are equal compared to each other, so can I just pick a random absolute volume on the AVR and then adjust all speakers + sub to play 75db?
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post #59 of 62 Old 09-23-2019, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Bnaan View Post
I have an older Onkyo TX-NR509 that doesn't display the volume db, only absolute scale from 0 to 82. What would be the best way to calibrate my levels? I guess the most important part is that all speakers are equal compared to each other, so can I just pick a random absolute volume on the AVR and then adjust all speakers + sub to play 75db?
If I was in this situation I would see what absolute volume level was necessary to hit 75db from my center channel with no channel trim adjustment, and then use that as reference level. Then adjust the rest of the speakers trim levels to match 75db. (assuming you have reasonable capable speakers and reasonable listening distance for those speakers)

If your AVR has preamp outputs you could also measure voltage with a DMM to determine a reasonable level. IIRC many AVRs are spec'd to output 1v while playing a 0dbfs 1khz tone. Find out what absolute value accomplishes that and use that as your 0db reference point.

Here's an article that discusses setting gains for amplifiers. Part 9 walks you through the process. There is a piece here (maybe part 7 or 8) that discusses finding max clean output. I would find the absolute db value from this procedure as another data point to help decide if I did not have the spec for the preamp output above. (note: you do not need to use the preamp outputs)

You may get better responses from others.
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post #60 of 62 Old 09-24-2019, 04:42 PM
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OP - why didn't you just do the auto-calibration first? I'm not following why you felt the need to "level match"?
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