This makes no sense! Onkyo better than Marantz? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 62 Old 09-17-2019, 02:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Angry This makes no sense! Onkyo better than Marantz?

I'll get straight to it...

Today, I received my new (refurbished) Marantz SR6013 AVR. I replaced the Onkyo NR787. The main reason I replaced the Onkyo was for better room correction software. AccuEQ (on paper) seemed not up to par with Audyssey EQ XT32. Also, I'm a fan of Denon and because Marantz is owned by the same parent company, I chose the SR6013 over the x4500h to save about $250. Also, the only difference is about 15w more power from the denon, but... this is not relevant in the matter of my issue.

I am not a complete noob at home audio. I know what I'm doing for the most part. My process is: hook everything up then do a manual calibration first, before Audyssey. My speaker setup is (5) Polk Owm 5 for my mains. (4) Polk Owm 3 for my height (Atmos) and an SVS PB1000. The Owm5 go down to 80 Hz, so I set them there. The Owm3 are set at 120Hz. All speakers set to small. Now... the problem... LEVEL MATCHING.

I've always in the past set the master volume at -25dB and then adjusted each speaker until it was at 75dB on an SPL meter (C weighted/Slow). This Marantz can't even get to 75dB! I was shocked. It has more power (10w) and I assumed a better quality amp over the Onkyo. But, it just does not get loud...at all.

I set the master volume at -25dB, went into "level adjust" and with all my speakers set to 0dB, I began to increase the dB on the Left speaker. At 0dB, my SPL meter was reading in the low 50s, very quiet. I increased it all the way, as far as it would go, which was +12.0dB and I was just past 70dB.

I reset the AVR, ran Audyssey first this time. After the the room correction was finished in all 8 positions, the volume is still WAY softer than my Onkyo was. I used to listen to my Onkyo at -25dB and it was perfect for TV. Movies I would crank up a little more, but I never got to -15dB. This Marantz has to be at -20db just to hear it well. Movies are past -15db.

Sorry for the long message, but I'm just really confused. How is it that I can't level match my speakers with this AVR? It retailed for over $1500! Certified refurbished it was still twice the price of my Onkyo. What's the deal? Any ideas?

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post #2 of 62 Old 09-17-2019, 02:47 PM
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You can’t compare them just by using the volume number on the receiver.

That’s like hooking up two different speakers to the same amp and saying that speaker a sounds better than speaker b because it’s louder.

They both will have about the same max volume/voltage, but clearly your Onkyo has a different volume scale than the Marantz.

Why not just turn the master volume up? Lol.

Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
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post #3 of 62 Old 09-17-2019, 02:51 PM
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What did the auto setup set things at?
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post #4 of 62 Old 09-17-2019, 02:56 PM
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When compared to a calibrated reference at 0dB they should be comparable. -20dB should be pretty loud, i never go that high except for a couple of times where the mix was very low. For comparison i usually watch tv/netflix at -30 to -40dB. (I like it somewhat low)
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post #5 of 62 Old 09-17-2019, 09:27 PM
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What levels did audyssey assign to your front left and front right speakers? +2.0db? 3.0?


FYI I have the same receiver and I use only the rca preouts as I hook up an external power amplifier and I too have complained this receiver just doesn’t seem to go loud enough... and I’m using preouts....


Just a random thing i noticed.... I personally believe the internal amps on the sr6013 is crap. I hooked up one time my center channel to be powered by the Marantz only to find out when I use multi channel stereo the tempo of the song speeds up. The difference is slight but noticeable. Like 128bpm music becomes 130-132. Switch it back to stereo which is powered by my external amp and all is fine.

I hook everything to my external amp and now the tempo is fine and normal regardless if it’s multinchannel stereo or just stereo. Just goes to show something related to the internal power amps of the Marantz is just extremely low fidelity and low quality with no thoughtful engineering that actually cared about music like they so often advertise. Very disappointed and since I bought mine from crutchfield I’ll probsby return it and eat the $10 shipping fee... I got mine open box for the same price as a refurb.... still sucks lol.
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post #6 of 62 Old 09-18-2019, 05:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Russdawg1 View Post
You can’t compare them just by using the volume number on the receiver.

That’s like hooking up two different speakers to the same amp and saying that speaker a sounds better than speaker b because it’s louder.

They both will have about the same max volume/voltage, but clearly your Onkyo has a different volume scale than the Marantz.

Why not just turn the master volume up? Lol.
Clearly, you have no experience in this space. A/V Receivers have a "absolute scale" and a "relative scale". The relative scale on the Marantz goes to +18.0dB. The Onkyo NR787 has the same relative scale. It's nothing like hooking up different speakers to the same amp as you said. The only thing that changed in my setup was the AVR. With the same volume scale, the higher quality amp with more power should, in theory, be louder. If I set the master volume at -25dB and then adjust the level of each speaker up to 75dB at the main listening position, I should be able to get there with the "BETTER" amp. But it doesn't come close.

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post #7 of 62 Old 09-18-2019, 05:05 AM
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Sounds like you've made up your mind then - why ask the question to begin with?
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post #8 of 62 Old 09-18-2019, 05:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by yodog View Post
What levels did audyssey assign to your front left and front right speakers? +2.0db? 3.0?


FYI I have the same receiver and I use only the rca preouts as I hook up an external power amplifier and I too have complained this receiver just doesn’t seem to go loud enough... and I’m using preouts....


Just a random thing i noticed.... I personally believe the internal amps on the sr6013 is crap. I hooked up one time my center channel to be powered by the Marantz only to find out when I use multi channel stereo the tempo of the song speeds up. The difference is slight but noticeable. Like 128bpm music becomes 130-132. Switch it back to stereo which is powered by my external amp and all is fine.

I hook everything to my external amp and now the tempo is fine and normal regardless if it’s multinchannel stereo or just stereo. Just goes to show something related to the internal power amps of the Marantz is just extremely low fidelity and low quality with no thoughtful engineering that actually cared about music like they so often advertise. Very disappointed and since I bought mine from crutchfield I’ll probsby return it and eat the $10 shipping fee... I got mine open box for the same price as a refurb.... still sucks lol.
I didn't write down what Audyssey set the fronts at, but I believe it did bump them to somewhere in the +2 or +3db range. I also feel that the amp in this AVR is just no good. Which is just inexcusable in my opinion for an AVR that costs $1500 new. As I stated in another post, my previous Onkyo got louder with the exact same setup. The relative volume scale goes from -79.5dB to +18.0dB on both the Onkyo and the Marantz. If the scale is the same, speakers are the same, wiring is the same... how is the Marantz so much quieter? The only logical explanation is that the amplifier that is supposed to be stronger, is actually weaker. Sorry you're having issues as well, thanks for your input.

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post #9 of 62 Old 09-18-2019, 05:09 AM
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Denon/Marantz AVR/AVPs are the most overrated products on this forum.

IME Yamaha and Onkyo are better performing products in general. I've owned all the major brands over the years and can buy whichever one I want. I will not be buying any more D&M.

As for RoomEQ, Audyssey is good at SubEQ but produces pretty terrible results otherwise. The mobile app helps a little (can limit correction frequency) but not enough and introduces it's own problems.

So no surprise to read this opinion. Not sure I follow your point about volume level though. Should be easy to calibrate them to the same level. (IE. the Onkyo might hit reference at the mlp at -5db and the Marantz may read 0db. Amplifier power has nothing to do with this.)
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post #10 of 62 Old 09-18-2019, 05:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gus Rodeen View Post
I've always in the past set the master volume at -25dB and then adjusted each speaker until it was at 75dB on an SPL meter (C weighted/Slow). This Marantz can't even get to 75dB!
Not really surprising considering -25dB master volume would equate to roughly 60dB.
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post #11 of 62 Old 09-18-2019, 06:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
Not really surprising considering -25dB master volume would equate to roughly 60dB.
Thank you for your reply. I think you're right and that is my mistake. I always "thought" I read to set the master volume at -25dB prior to level matching to 75dB to get to reference sound. But after reading another post this morning, it said to crank up the volume to 0 and then level match to 75dB.

Does this sound accurate to you?

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post #12 of 62 Old 09-18-2019, 06:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by dwaleke View Post
Denon/Marantz AVR/AVPs are the most overrated products on this forum.

IME Yamaha and Onkyo are better performing products in general. I've owned all the major brands over the years and can buy whichever one I want. I will not be buying any more D&M.

As for RoomEQ, Audyssey is good at SubEQ but produces pretty terrible results otherwise. The mobile app helps a little (can limit correction frequency) but not enough and introduces it's own problems.

So no surprise to read this opinion. Not sure I follow your point about volume level though. Should be easy to calibrate them to the same level. (IE. the Onkyo might hit reference at the mlp at -5db and the Marantz may read 0db. Amplifier power has nothing to do with this.)
Thank you for your reply. I think my issue is setting the master volume to -25dB before level matching using the SPL. I think I need the master volume at 0dB prior to level matching because "reference" is 0dB, so by level matching from there, you will not have to turn it up to 0 to achieve reference sound.

Right??

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post #13 of 62 Old 09-18-2019, 06:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Gus Rodeen View Post
Thank you for your reply. I think my issue is setting the master volume to -25dB before level matching using the SPL. I think I need the master volume at 0dB prior to level matching because "reference" is 0dB, so by level matching from there, you will not have to turn it up to 0 to achieve reference sound.



Right??
If using avr test tones I'd follow this procedure.

Set the AVR master volume to 0db. Play test tones and then adjust your speaker trims until you measure 75db at your main listening position for each speaker.

You could level set to any level since you are doing a comparison between two units. You don't need to target reference level.

Some AVRs play tones without EQ in the mix and some do. So people often use tones generated by another device to ensure EQ is factored in. But the process above should get you close enough to perform the comparison you are after.


I should add this is part of an AVR automated speaker setup process. D&M is the only brand that religiously sets speaker trims to achieve reference at 0db master volume level (others may too but these models definitely do). You may find you are reducing spl for your speaker trims on the Onkyo to achieve the same volume level as the Marantz.
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post #14 of 62 Old 09-18-2019, 06:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gus Rodeen View Post
Clearly, you have no experience in this space. A/V Receivers have a "absolute scale" and a "relative scale". The relative scale on the Marantz goes to +18.0dB. The Onkyo NR787 has the same relative scale. It's nothing like hooking up different speakers to the same amp as you said. The only thing that changed in my setup was the AVR. With the same volume scale, the higher quality amp with more power should, in theory, be louder. If I set the master volume at -25dB and then adjust the level of each speaker up to 75dB at the main listening position, I should be able to get there with the "BETTER" amp. But it doesn't come close.
Note that the Master Volume scale will change downward, if any of the Channel Trim levels are adjusted to be positive...
For example, the max to be shown is +18dB, but if the front L/Rs are set @ +5dB now the max to be shown will be +13dB...(18dB minus 5dB)
This is because the volume level DSP processor is designed for a total gain amount as to avoid overload/clipping...

Just my $0.02...
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post #15 of 62 Old 09-18-2019, 06:40 AM
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0dB on the volume scale should be 85dB shouldnt it since that is the reference volume(?). I read most AVR/processors now run the auto setup sweeps at -10dB(75dB) because 0(85dB) was too loud and customers didnt like to run them like that at home.
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post #16 of 62 Old 09-18-2019, 06:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Leeliemix View Post
0dB on the volume scale should be 85dB shouldnt it since that is the reference volume(?).
Correct. 85db with 105db peaks.

Built-in test tones play at 75db for the major brands.
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post #17 of 62 Old 09-18-2019, 06:55 AM
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Why are you trying to outsmart the auto setup on the receiver?? Just plug in the mic, run Audyssey, adjust sub/center/tops up a few dB if you like, and call it a day. You're making it way more complicated than it needs to be.

edit: Oh, and set speakers to small/80 Hz or whatever after, of course.
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post #18 of 62 Old 09-18-2019, 07:02 AM
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He's comparing two different AVRs with two different auto setup technologies.

They need to be level matched to accomplish any meaningful comparison.

Last edited by dwaleke; 09-18-2019 at 07:10 AM.
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post #19 of 62 Old 09-18-2019, 07:06 AM
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I'm not sure that Denon/Marantz is significantly better than Onkyo. Honestly I think it's more like a Ford and Chevy thing, some people like one over the other, some people have had great experiences with one, and terrible with the other, and vice versa. In the end, I don't think there is a significant difference. Onkyo had HDMI board problems a few years ago that tarnished their reputation quite a bit, but from what I remember they did extend warranties, and from what I understand those issues are resolved.


"Marantz" is a great name in audio, and they still make some excellent products, but the mid-level receiver range, it's pretty much just a name slapped on a Denon receiver. I think the 6013 is the same as a Denon 3400 for all practical purposes.

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post #20 of 62 Old 09-18-2019, 07:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwaleke View Post
He's comparing two different AVRs with two different auto setup technologies.

They need to be level matched to accomplish and meaningful comparison.
A great place to start is by actually running the auto setup, not trying to outsmart it with an SPL meter. I don't think he's even trying to do a level-matched side by side comparison, just set up the new receiver. Level matching to the old receiver is 100% pointless, and could just be done with the volume knob anyway.
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post #21 of 62 Old 09-18-2019, 07:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwaleke View Post
He's comparing two different AVRs with two different auto setup technologies.

They need to be level matched to accomplish and meaningful comparison.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ratbuddy View Post
Why are you trying to outsmart the auto setup on the receiver?? Just plug in the mic, run Audyssey, adjust sub/center/tops up a few dB if you like, and call it a day. You're making it way more complicated than it needs to be.

edit: Oh, and set speakers to small/80 Hz or whatever after, of course.
Thank you @dwaleke . Also, @ratbuddy if you don't have something positive to contribute... just don't post. Don't tell people to just "call it a day". I want the best out of my equipment and in order to get that sometimes means asking questions to a thoughtful community with knowledge on the topic. If the basic Audyssey sounds good to you, that's great. But for me and a lot of others, there is more to home theater setup than just placing a mic in a few positions.

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post #22 of 62 Old 09-18-2019, 07:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Gus Rodeen View Post
Thank you @dwaleke . Also, @ratbuddy if you don't have something positive to contribute... just don't post. Don't tell people to just "call it a day". I want the best out of my equipment and in order to get that sometimes means asking questions to a thoughtful community with knowledge on the topic. If the basic Audyssey sounds good to you, that's great. But for me and a lot of others, there is more to home theater setup than just placing a mic in a few positions.
Dude, I DID give you a positive contribution, as did others here, you just seem to think you know better. Adjusting your levels with an SPL meter is not improving on Audyssey. XT32, I promise, is smarter than you. Just sit back and let it work.

You can use the phone app and the program I wrote here https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...app-files.html if you want more control over your calibration files.
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I had the same reaction when I switched from an older Onkyo receiver to a Denon X4400. In order to get the same SPL, I had to turn the Denon up more than the Onkyo. It took me a while to understand that this is largely irrelevant. The volume scales between different brands are not equal. Denon calibrates 0 dB to be reference volume. Some older Onkyo receivers only use the calibration to level match the speakers, but don't calibrate to reference. Audyssey has lots of features on the Denon that depend on 0 dB being reference such as Dynamic EQ.

As others have said, just turn the volume up to reach your desired listening level.
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post #24 of 62 Old 09-18-2019, 07:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mocs123 View Post
I'm not sure that Denon/Marantz is significantly better than Onkyo. Honestly I think it's more like a Ford and Chevy thing, some people like one over the other, some people have had great experiences with one, and terrible with the other, and vice versa. In the end, I don't think there is a significant difference. Onkyo had HDMI board problems a few years ago that tarnished their reputation quite a bit, but from what I remember they did extend warranties, and from what I understand those issues are resolved.


"Marantz" is a great name in audio, and they still make some excellent products, but the mid-level receiver range, it's pretty much just a name slapped on a Denon receiver. I think the 6013 is the same as a Denon 3400 for all practical purposes.

Right. People get it in their heads that Denon is the best or Marantz is the best or Onkyo's are crap, etc. Those same people still believe each has its own unique "sound signature" and other non-sense. Buy an AVR for your purpose and price, not because the lemmings are all running after this brand or that brand...
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post #25 of 62 Old 09-18-2019, 07:30 AM
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One other note. Don't do any manual calibration prior to running Audyssey. It will just undo all of your work. Audyssey does a great job of level matching the speakers and calibrating 0db to be 75db. Any manual adjustments to Audyssey should be done afterwards. Common changes are to increase the sub level and the center level to taste.
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post #26 of 62 Old 09-18-2019, 07:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwaleke View Post
As for RoomEQ, Audyssey is good at SubEQ but produces pretty terrible results otherwise. The mobile app helps a little (can limit correction frequency) but not enough and introduces it's own problems.
I'm not sure that I would describe the results as terrible. The biggest difference is that Audyssey attempts to flatten the entire frequency response while other room correction techniques leave the upper frequencies alone. This taming of the upper frequencies can make speakers sound less lively and may not be preferred by some listeners. In my untreated room, Audyssey did an excellent job and was much preferred over AccuEQ.

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post #27 of 62 Old 09-18-2019, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leeliemix View Post
0dB on the volume scale should be 85dB shouldnt it since that is the reference volume(?). I read most AVR/processors now run the auto setup sweeps at -10dB(75dB) because 0(85dB) was too loud and customers didnt like to run them like that at home.
"Reference" level requires peaks of 105dB from the satellite speakers and 115dB from the sub(s). Most internal AVR speaker test tones are output at -30dBfs (-40dBfs for the subs), at 0MV (Master Volume) that equals 75dB. This is why the OP should be using 0MV if he wants to be calibrated to Reference. His older Onkyo probably didn't calibrate to Reference and only level matched the speakers to each other, otherwise his method of calibrating at -25MV would have had the same results as the new Denon.

That being said, you should really use an external source for test tones when setting speaker levels since the internal tones are not run through the Audyssey filters. Depending on how much correction Audyssey did in your room, this could be a significant or minuscule difference.
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post #28 of 62 Old 09-18-2019, 04:00 PM
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There's also the one obvious possibility.

Someone returned the Marantz because of a problem, the problem wasn't caught, and the unit went out for sale as a refurb.

You hear issues like this all the time.

Sometimes a refurb is just a return and sometimes it was someone else's problem that now has become your problem.

Don't rule it out if something is obviously wrong with it.
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post #29 of 62 Old 09-18-2019, 04:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leeliemix View Post
0dB on the volume scale should be 85dB shouldnt it since that is the reference volume(?). I read most AVR/processors now run the auto setup sweeps at -10dB(75dB) because 0(85dB) was too loud and customers didnt like to run them like that at home.
When the Master Volume is set to 0dB and all channel trims are are set to 0dB, then a 1V(rms) @1KHz test signal is injected through a source input jack,
the AVR should be outputting its rated power into 8 Ohms.... What SPL is measured through loudspeaker totally depends upon the room, distance from the loudspeaker and sensitivity specification of the loudspeaker used.

Just my $0.02...
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post #30 of 62 Old 09-18-2019, 05:00 PM
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Same same?

Well, now owned by the same folks - so only time will tell! They do currently look different under the hood though.
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