What can I buy to remove edgeness from speakers? Amp? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 21 Old 10-08-2019, 03:26 PM - Thread Starter
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What can I buy to remove edgeness from speakers? Amp?

I was browsing youtube and found a few videos on tube vs solid state amps. I came across this video below. If you go to 1:15 you can hear the difference when he plays his guitar. I prefer the sound signature of A vs B. I assume B is solid state as that's pretty much how my speakers sound and I find it too harsh or edgy.

Without switching to a tube amp is there a device I can buy that will alter the sound to warm it up so it sounds more like the A example in his video?

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post #2 of 21 Old 10-08-2019, 03:31 PM
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What speakers do you have?
How is your room?
Its usually those that make things harsh, with room as maybe the biggest culprit unless you just play too loud.
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post #3 of 21 Old 10-08-2019, 03:35 PM
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There are tube pre-amps and i think there are some tube gear that can go between a pre/avr and amps also.
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post #4 of 21 Old 10-08-2019, 03:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Using ascend 170s for mains and 200's for surrounds.

Room is a converted garage with carpet, drapes on my screen wall and completely on the right hand wall. I have a couch and a sitting chair in the room. If anything my garage has more dampening than my living room setup.

Receiver: Denon S540BT
Speakers: Ascend 170's, CMT-340SE center channel with HTM-200's for surround
Sub: Klipsch 12"
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post #5 of 21 Old 10-08-2019, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1983weatherby View Post
Using ascend 170s for mains and 200's for surrounds.



Room is a converted garage with carpet, drapes on my screen wall and completely on the right hand wall. I have a couch and a sitting chair in the room. If anything my garage has more dampening than my living room setup.


If i see the right speakers when googling its probably cheaper and better to replace speakers than to put tubes in the path. Since your room is not hard and bright its probably those speakers at the volume you play them at.
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post #6 of 21 Old 10-08-2019, 05:24 PM
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You can just EQ it.

A low shelf starting at 1500hz or so should do the trick. Play around with it.

Not sure if your current setup has EQ available or can integrate an external EQ like a MiniDSP.
18Hurts and Soulburner like this.

Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
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post #7 of 21 Old 10-08-2019, 10:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1983weatherby View Post
Using ascend 170s for mains and 200's for surrounds.

Room is a converted garage with carpet, drapes on my screen wall and completely on the right hand wall. I have a couch and a sitting chair in the room. If anything my garage has more dampening than my living room setup.

This is guess work, but hey...

Looking (closely) at the 2nd chart on the link below there is a broad peak in horizontal off axis response at 30 and 60 degrees (blue and red lines) from 2kHz to 5kHz. There is an even bigger off axis broad peak in the vertical response at 15 degrees (blue line) from 3kHz to 6Hz. In each axis there is a broad drop in response before the peak. Theses off axis responses are reflected from the side walls, ceiling and floors and then reach our ears.

Humans are most sensitive to sound in the approximately 2kHz to 5kHz range. The unpleasant sound is likely from the reflected broad peaks, especially when the ears (and brain,) compare the broad peak to the broad drop before the peak. Human are more sensitive to broad peaks and depressions than sharp peaks and depressions.

Off axis response such as this is very typical of two way speakers. The dispersion of the woofer narrows with higher frequencies hence the drop in output off axis, once the tweeter takes over the dispersion widens, just as seen in the performance graphs. The crossover frequency doesn't seem to be specified in the specifications. The higher the crossover the worse this off axis response becomes. It's physics based on the size of the drivers and frequencies those drivers are producing. .

This sort of response issue is very typical of two way speakers, especially if they have 1st or 2nd order crossovers (which lowers cost) that force the crossover frequency higher to protect the tweeter. Peaks and valleys in off axis response, with resultant uneven response in reflections, is one the key reasons for dissatisfaction with speakers IMNVHO.

You can likely tame the unpleasant sound by putting sound absorption at least on the side walls at the point where the sound reflects. 4" fiberglass or equivalent would be best. If the garage has a low ceiling those reflections are giving problems as well, as is the floor, depending on the existing absorption. Much of the cost of of more expensive speakers should be for for three way (tweeter, midrange, and woofer) or four way designs, with 4th order crossovers. Absorbing these side reflections has negatives as well, somehow the sound isn't a enveloping. The best approach is the purchase speakers with even on axis and smooth off axis response, but these cost money, and many more expensive speakers are still poorly designed in this area. The absorption of side, and up and down reflections, then becomes unnecessary.

http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages...bm170meas.html
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post #8 of 21 Old 10-08-2019, 10:21 PM
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bigguyca,

I largely agree with your analysis, but a couple of details:

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigguyca View Post
You can likely tame the unpleasant sound by putting sound absorption at least on the side walls at the point where the sound reflects. 4" fiberglass or equivalent would be best.

For 2+ kHz 1" should be ample.



Quote:
Originally Posted by bigguyca View Post
The best approach is the purchase speakers with even on axis and smooth off axis response, but these cost money

Controlled directivity speakers like the JBL LSR305 and 308 are quite affordable.

Noah
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post #9 of 21 Old 10-08-2019, 10:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
bigguyca,

I largely agree with your analysis, but a couple of details:

(1) For 2+ kHz 1" should be ample.

(2) Controlled directivity speakers like the JBL LSR305 and 308 are quite affordable.

(1) If only one or two inches of fiberglass is used are used then only higher frequencies will be absorbed and the sound will become mid-bass heavy. It is fundamental to use 4-inch or thicker absorbers to not create more problems than are solved. Use of thin absorbers is a mistake that is often made.

(2) The latest versions of the LSR305 and LSR308 (II?) are often reported to have noisy amplifiers, that is, the speakers produce white noise, but clearly something with well controlled dispersion would be good. Some monitoring speakers might be good although many seem more designed for the near field and good ones aren't inexpensive.

I have the original version of the LSR305 and they work well as computer speakers with the associated subwoofer, but wouldn't be good enough for serious listening. For home theater or quality listening in a larger space they would be over their head. Many quality three-way towers with 4th order crossovers would be good such as the Revel Performa3 F208.

Last edited by bigguyca; 10-08-2019 at 10:50 PM.
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post #10 of 21 Old 10-09-2019, 07:33 AM
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You can always redo the crossovers
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post #11 of 21 Old 10-09-2019, 09:09 AM
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@1983weatherby from what I have read the Ascends are dead middle of the road, not bright (Klipsch) and not warm (Wharfedale) so the edginess sound, as @Leeliemix said, is probably from the room itself. It is either reflections or echos between parallel walls.

Take a look at managing early reflections and see if this helps http://realtraps.com/rfz.htm
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post #12 of 21 Old 10-09-2019, 09:33 AM
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@1983weatherby is it at any volume or only when you play loudly?
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post #13 of 21 Old 10-09-2019, 11:49 AM - Thread Starter
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It does it all the time, though it is more noticeable the louder I up the volume. Which makes sense.

Receiver: Denon S540BT
Speakers: Ascend 170's, CMT-340SE center channel with HTM-200's for surround
Sub: Klipsch 12"
HT2050a
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post #14 of 21 Old 10-09-2019, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigguyca View Post
(1) If only one or two inches of fiberglass is used are used then only higher frequencies will be absorbed and the sound will become mid-bass heavy. It is fundamental to use 4-inch or thicker absorbers to not create more problems than are solved. Use of thin absorbers is a mistake that is often made.

Fair enough; I was thinking the panels were to specifically address his high freq issue.

Noah
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post #15 of 21 Old 10-09-2019, 11:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Russdawg1 View Post
You can just EQ it.

A low shelf starting at 1500hz or so should do the trick. Play around with it.

Not sure if your current setup has EQ available or can integrate an external EQ like a MiniDSP.
Thanks, I tried playing with an EQ on my laptop for music but it wasn't giving me that warm sound, it just kind of would make things muddy if i lowered the eq or more bright if I bumped up with the EQ. I will download another EQ software and see if I can figure it out.

Receiver: Denon S540BT
Speakers: Ascend 170's, CMT-340SE center channel with HTM-200's for surround
Sub: Klipsch 12"
HT2050a
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post #16 of 21 Old 10-09-2019, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1983weatherby View Post
It does it all the time, though it is more noticeable the louder I up the volume. Which makes sense.


It can be the room, is it echo prone, how is it if you clap your hands a bit loudly?
If i saw the right speakers when googling many (inexpensive) speakers can get harsh at a bit of volume due to many things but often a lot of sound bleeding out everywhere through the cabinet.
It can be whats before the speakers, amp or source, how do you listen to music, streaming? How?
What you are listening to, quality of track both in production and file/format. A lot of music is really crappily made/recorded/mastered.
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post #17 of 21 Old 10-09-2019, 12:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Using the clap test it is pretty dead except the ceiling. I do get a bit of reflection from there.
Using high quality recorded FLAC music that I have used on my last set of speakers in a different house.

I will just deal with it. I think its just getting used to neutral sounding speakers. I am used to Paradigm sound signature with a yamaha amp and perhaps I am just "missing" that sound signature currently. The speakers sound fantastic, I have zero issues with the clarity and overall presentation of the speakers... Just prefer a little warmer sound.

Receiver: Denon S540BT
Speakers: Ascend 170's, CMT-340SE center channel with HTM-200's for surround
Sub: Klipsch 12"
HT2050a
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post #18 of 21 Old 10-09-2019, 01:39 PM
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@1983weatherby Ascend is well respected here and I imagine you could sell those pretty quickly here on the forum? Then head over to the speaker thread or the diy speakers and sub thread and find out which speakers are warmer? I think Wharfedale are on the warm side and so are my JBL Arena speakers but those are not quite in the same league. Others might be able to give you much better advice to get that sound signature back that you love.

Good luck!
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post #19 of 21 Old 10-09-2019, 05:28 PM
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post #20 of 21 Old 10-09-2019, 05:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Russdawg1 View Post
You can just EQ it.

A low shelf starting at 1500hz or so should do the trick. Play around with it.

Not sure if your current setup has EQ available or can integrate an external EQ like a MiniDSP.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
Turn your subs up a couple dB.
These are the two best suggestions. Do #2 first, then play with #1 . No need to buy different speakers or amps.

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post #21 of 21 Old 10-09-2019, 08:09 PM
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How about a thin cloth in front of the tweeters? Double it if/as needed until the desired effect is met. It's cheap and it works. I did this with a pair of Pioneer speakers I owned way back when - like mid 70's.

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