Just read this Yamaha receivers won't sound good with KEF speakers is it true ? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 10 Old 10-12-2019, 02:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Just read this Yamaha receivers won't sound good with KEF speakers is it true ?

Hi

I have 2018 Entry level from yamaha RX-V385
https://www.amazon.com/Yamaha-RX-V38.../dp/B07BNXXJKB

i am looking into kef speakers to go for 3.1 ( Q650C + Q150) so i am planning to upgrade

but just read this quote from stereophile.com forum



Quote:
August 24, 2019 - 8:59am
commsysman

Most KEF speakers are very good, but IMO they will never sound very good with ANY Yamaha receiver, no matter what power they claim (and their specs are misleading in the extreme).
If you want your speakers to sound the way they should, get a Cambridge Audio or NAD receiver. I will not bore you with the technical reasons that their sound quality is so much better than the Yamaha, but they have much larger more robust power supplies, and very superior design all the way through. Yamaha makes cheap equipment which sounds as cheap as it is.
Is it true whats commsysman is saying ?


original post
https://www.stereophile.com/content/...rs-suggestions

Last edited by Ahmadss; 10-12-2019 at 02:46 PM.
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post #2 of 10 Old 10-12-2019, 02:30 PM
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If I tell you that Yamaha receivers sound fantastic with all B&W speakers are you going to believe me too?

There are no blanket statements in audio, and you cannot believe every thing you read online.

You need to make this determination for yourself.

Nothing will sound horrific simply because someone says so.

Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
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post #3 of 10 Old 10-12-2019, 02:36 PM
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Thats a bit too much of a blanket statement but an entry level AVR wont have nearly as big a powersupply as gear costing many times more.
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post #4 of 10 Old 10-12-2019, 03:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ahmadss View Post
Hi

I have 2018 Entry level from yamaha RX-V385
https://www.amazon.com/Yamaha-RX-V38.../dp/B07BNXXJKB

i am looking into kef speakers to go for 3.1 ( Q650C + Q150) so i am planning to upgrade

but just read this quote from stereophile.com forum





Is it true whats commsysman is saying ?


original post
https://www.stereophile.com/content/...rs-suggestions
It won't sound bad, but keep in mind that Kef aren't incredibly efficient. Your entry level Yamaha will easily drive them, but may be limited on how loud they'll play, especially if running full range without a sub. A higher end receiver with a more robust power supply and better room correction certainly wouldn't hurt. If you like to listen at very elevated volume levels, consider more efficient speakers.
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Kef LS50,Q200C, Q100, SVS SB-2000, Denon AVR-X3400H, NAD 216, Panasonic 50" Plasma, Xbox One.
Bedroom: Kef Q100 ,JBL Loft 20, Bic F-12, Denon AVR-S710W, PS3, 32" Insigna LED.
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post #5 of 10 Old 10-12-2019, 03:37 PM
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Not by the load testing I've seen on most Japanese designed amplifiers,

All those brands tend to make sure they are designed to be accurate so they don't have their own "sound". Logically, that would make sense to build accurate equipment to cover all the bases. Class A/B amps have been in production since 1957 so it makes sense that after over 60 years the bugs have been worked out long ago. Personally, I won't purchase any amplifier if it is not accurate--if I want to change the sound, I'd change the speakers or EQ them.

The dillusion about amps is if they have more power (be it lower impedance etc.) it will sound "better". A great idea if you are aslesmen but not if you actually just want accurate sound and enough power to prevent clipping. I don't care what amp you purchase, even the ones the size of a window AC unit--if you overdrive and clip them, they sound bad. The more power that is dreen into a speaker, the farther the diaphrams move and the more distortion the speaker creates. You might like a certain loudness level and the way our ears/brain works--it can sound "better" if it is louder but the more power you punch into a speaker the more distortion it creates. Eventually, the speaker drivers will move past their linear movement and start to really distort--the point of understanding the system is to not have speakers or amplifiers that enter that non-linear range. To know what power level that is requires actual real measurements of the speaker and you can find the distortion levels at various power levels. data-bass.com does that with subwoofer systems, you can see the charts at various power levels and notice how the distortion jumps at higher power. This has been known from the dawn of speakers and amplifiers, the idea is to have enough power that the amplifier will remain linear (not clip) hopefully it generates the SPL required before the speakers start to overloaad, suffer from power compression, create high distortion and so on.

Put it this way, if the amps have a "sound" and so on--why don't audio peopl;e purchase Powersoft K20 stadium amplifiers? They can punch up to 20,000 watts into low impedance loads and if more power "sounds better" why don't stadium amplifiers dominate the market? To "know" what power level you require takes math, accurate measurements of the speakers efficiency/sensitivity output, listening distance calculations and so on. The type of speaker and how efficient it is has a huge effect on that--a typical consumer speaker might be outputing 87 to 90dB at one watt/one meter while some large speakers for HT run at 97 to 105dB one watt/one meter. If you require 500 watts to get the output you need with 87dB towers, a 97dB speaker requires 50 watts and a 105dB speaker demands only 16 watts of power. That is an incredible variation between 16 watts and 500 watts--a simple AVR would smoke your hearing at 50 watts in your living room with a 105dB 1w/1m speaker! This is why understanding power, efficiency and distance is very important for sound systems--those guys that build arena sound systems for world tours fully understand this. Out on tour in the Middle East is not the time to require more equipment, they know what they need before the tour starts.

Most of the dogma about amplifiers is bogus, the main thing to remember is as long as the impedance of the speaker is above the rating of the amplifier, the power you demand can be met by the amplifier without clipping--you are almost done. Don't get caught in the trap of the spec game, my numbers are larger or smaller than your numbers so I'm "better". Look at the distortion numbers on speakers at 10 to 50 watts, they are much higher than any modern amplifier that is built correctly so any real distortion the amplifier makes is when it is overlocading or clipping. If the amplifier is not clipping, you are golden as the natural distortion of the speaker swamps and masks the very low amplifier distortion. I'll take a Yamaha AVR that is not clipping over any ultra-wazoo audiophile amp that IS clipping.

For the OP, just sniff around and find measurements of the speakers you wish to purchase. Find the minimum impedance charts (KEF might have them on their site) make sure it don't dip down to ohms lower than your amp is rated. If that is fine, don't crank the volume control to 11 to prevent clipping. It soure would be easier if AVRs had power meters and clip lights, they used to but I've seen plenty of expensive amps that don't have a clip light so must be a style thing or something. The two amplifiers I have do have power output/clip lights on them so no worries for party mode on occasion. The poster on the other forum used to hang out here on AVS with that same amplifier religious dogma, he used to get shut down all the time and probably lleft to spew his teachings on other forums. Relax, amplifiers are mature technology that was perfected in the last century and as long as you are not clipping it or driving really low impedance loads, you should be fine.

Here is a good test with over 30 audiophile types in Spain, it will give you a good idea real world of what works. Keep it in mind when reading about amps, cables, power cords, interconnects and the like. There is a reason all this stuff is mesured, learn what the measurements mean and at what levels when measurements don't matter. Nothing worse than throwing money at a problem and you make it worse. Enjoy the read and have a great weekend.

http://matrixhifi.com/ENG_contenedor_ppec.htm
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post #6 of 10 Old 10-12-2019, 05:55 PM
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I've used a Yamaha V685 with KEF (LS50, Q100, R3). I've also used Anthem and also various power amps.

Within the limits of absolute volume, I've noticed no difference.
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post #7 of 10 Old 10-13-2019, 12:51 PM
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Just because you found Some Forum Yahoo with an opinion doesn't mean it's true. A blanket statement like "will never sound very good with ANY Yamaha receiver" is so extreme that I strongly suspect some bias or prejudice harbored by that user. Forget a grain, take that user's posts with a whole jar of Himalayan salt.

Even the experienced, knowledgeable people on this and other forums can be mistaken from time to time. I generally concur with the responses you've gotten above. No way will a 385 sound as great, and push current through those speakers, as a much more expensive RX-A2080 or RX-A3080. But you'll get some satisfactory playback unless you presume that you'll crank out loud, robust sound from any speaker using an entry level AVR.

Feel free to continue inquiring about Yamaha RX-V*85 receivers in our dedicated thread, you might even find people with KEF speakers!

Yours etc.,

Another Forum Yahoo

"Exceedingly odd," said the butler.
Are you new to the forum? Please read forum FAQs and stickies. Like posts that help you. RTFM, always.
A: Yamaha RX-V775; Chromecast Audio; iPod Classic, Touch. Bose 401 mains, 301 Series III surrounds, Yamaha NS-C444 center, Hsu VTF-2 Mk4.
V: Panasonic DMP-BDT215, Yamaha DVD-S550. Apple TV 4gen. Chromecast 1gen, Samsung UN40ES6150.

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post #8 of 10 Old 10-13-2019, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ahmadss View Post
commsysman
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChromeJob View Post
Just because you found Some Forum Yahoo with an opinion doesn't mean it's true.

yes, this
many of us here are very familiar with commsysman

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"All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it."
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post #9 of 10 Old 10-13-2019, 02:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Spoiler!









Some quotes from reddit after i asked the same question there


Quote:
I've had my KEF R3's driven by a Yamaha A2080 AVR for over half a year and they sound extremely good together running Tidal hi-fi or USB stick with FLAC files. Might a good or very good integrated amp sound better? Probably but I have a feeling it will not be a huge improvement. This really is an endless debate.
Quote:
He's not going to go into the technical details because there aren't any

Quote:
I have a Yamaha tsr 5810 and Kef 104/2s. It sounds incredible
Quote:
This guy is misleading and very biased. Yamaha has some awesome sounding equipment both past and present.
Quote:
No.

And as far as i know here is no logic behind it.

Both Yamaha and KEF has made so many models that all sound different that is impossible to say that the two do not go well together.


Quote:
No it's not true. Commsysman also posts his unfounded all over AVSForum and is frequently called out on it. Well designed, solid-state amps simply amplify the signal, not alter it, assuming no EQ is turned on.

Floyd Toole, who literally wrote the book regarding sound reproduction states:

"The fact is that well-designed solid-state amplifiers have no fundamental problems. Loudspeakers will sound as they should, and power and current capabilities are available to satisfy all needs. Audible differences between good power amplifiers used within their limits are vanishingly small, usually inaudible. Amplifier sound quality has been one of the “great debate” issues for years. Double-blind listening tests conducted over several decades have been very disappointing to those who thought there were easily heard differences. A common reaction has been that the problem was the blind test, even though there was no time limit, and a free choice of program. Some said that if they knew what they were listening to, it would have been different . . . of course. That said, there is no denying that inadequate engineering is sometimes evident, which is why the final test of an amplifier is a subjective one, with it driving the customer’s loudspeakers. For the technically inclined, watching an oscilloscope display of the voltage across the loudspeaker terminals is sometimes greatly revealing, especially when power amplifiers approach voltage or current limits and go into “protection” mode."

Source: https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/s...rs_part_3.docx


Quote:
Don't worry about it. There are minor differences between amplifiers, but for most use cases home AVRs are fine. You're not using esoteric or demanding speakers, and Yamaha receivers can push them one watt on average just as well as anything else.

Quote:
I have Kef Q350's and a Yamaha RX-V381 and they sound amazing.

Quote:
Nope he’s full of it.

Quote:
Don't worry about it. There are minor differences between amplifiers, but for most use cases home AVRs are fine. You're not using esoteric or demanding speakers, and Yamaha receivers can push them one watt on average just as well as anything else.

so my Yamaha is fine , i actually like yamaha i am happy that statement was not accurate

Last edited by Ahmadss; 10-13-2019 at 02:18 PM.
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post #10 of 10 Old 10-13-2019, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ahmadss View Post
so my Yamaha is fine , i actually like yamaha i am happy that statement was not accurate

Just so you know, when I first went with KEFs ~15 years ago, I was told emphatically by more than one person that Yamaha was the bee's knees with KEF and that I should replace my Denon. I kept the Denon.

"All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it."
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