I'm considering returning my new Denon AVR-X2600H because of software - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 10 Old 10-19-2019, 11:39 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm considering returning my new Denon AVR-X2600H because of software

I might be spoiled. This has nothing to do with sound quality, as it played the best audio I've ever listened to in my home theatre when I tested it with my new Onkyo SKS-HT978 THX speaker set.

Rather, I don't like the primitive software. It might be job conditioning. Here is what bothers me:

1) The remote is cheap and poorly designed. I like nothing about it. It's almost like they choose the same supplier selling remotes to companies selling $40 Chinese tvs and and replaced the print on the keys. It's lightweight, poorly organised, feels cheap and I don't even like how the key press feels. It's the worst remote I've ever used and given how that's my closest interface to the device, it bothers me.

2) The latency between a keypress and something happening on screen. Don't get me wrong, I understand they had to cheap out on the IC they are using to process the OSD and the QT-based interface they are using can't go any faster, but I'm used a simple-but-working 720p Yamaha OSD where if I adjust the volume on my remote, I can have visual feedback in real time. This one has a delay, that was absolutely ridiculous, like 700ms out of the box, and after a few updates got down to manageable-but-still-bad.

3) There are plenty of features, but they are poorly programmed. Take airplay, for example. My phone thinks it's carplay. When adjusting volume or skipping tracks from my phone (or from the remote) it takes a full second before a section from the receiver. The interface is so ugly I can't stand to watch it.

4) I had problems with the simplest things, like getting my PC's 4k 30fps outputs to work when the Denon was in between, which again makes me think this product was rushed to the market.

I'm very tempted to return it, but I wouldn't know what to replace it with. I might be missing the mark completely here, but I believe I would enjoy a simpler receiver with less, better implemented features more.

... Then again, according to this forum I need to stick to Denon for their audyssey (and maybe even pay more for audyssey 32).

Thank you for any discussion.
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post #2 of 10 Old 10-19-2019, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bfan1 View Post
I might be spoiled. This has nothing to do with sound quality, as it played the best audio I've ever listened to in my home theatre when I tested it with my new Onkyo SKS-HT978 THX speaker set.



Rather, I don't like the primitive software. It might be job conditioning. Here is what bothers me:



1) The remote is cheap and poorly designed. I like nothing about it. It's almost like they choose the same supplier selling remotes to companies selling $40 Chinese tvs and and replaced the print on the keys. It's lightweight, poorly organised, feels cheap and I don't even like how the key press feels. It's the worst remote I've ever used and given how that's my closest interface to the device, it bothers me.



2) The latency between a keypress and something happening on screen. Don't get me wrong, I understand they had to cheap out on the IC they are using to process the OSD and the QT-based interface they are using can't go any faster, but I'm used a simple-but-working 720p Yamaha OSD where if I adjust the volume on my remote, I can have visual feedback in real time. This one has a delay, that was absolutely ridiculous, like 700ms out of the box, and after a few updates got down to manageable-but-still-bad.



3) There are plenty of features, but they are poorly programmed. Take airplay, for example. My phone thinks it's carplay. When adjusting volume or skipping tracks from my phone (or from the remote) it takes a full second before a section from the receiver. The interface is so ugly I can't stand to watch it.



4) I had problems with the simplest things, like getting my PC's 4k 30fps outputs to work when the Denon was in between, which again makes me think this product was rushed to the market.



I'm very tempted to return it, but I wouldn't know what to replace it with. I might be missing the mark completely here, but I believe I would enjoy a simpler receiver with less, better implemented features more.



... Then again, according to this forum I need to stick to Denon for their audyssey (and maybe even pay more for audyssey 32).



Thank you for any discussion.
You do not deserve this Denon product. Please kindly return it. Thank you . That is all.

LOL. But seriously if you the positives don't outweigh the negatives for you then return it. Keep in mind to get a solid remote with better response time and better OS and GUI you will need to spend more money. All the competing receivers in the same price range will feel similarly cheap

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post #3 of 10 Old 10-19-2019, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bfan1 View Post
I might be spoiled. This has nothing to do with sound quality, as it played the best audio I've ever listened to in my home theatre when I tested it with my new Onkyo SKS-HT978 THX speaker set.

Rather, I don't like the primitive software. It might be job conditioning. Here is what bothers me:

1) The remote is cheap and poorly designed. I like nothing about it. It's almost like they choose the same supplier selling remotes to companies selling $40 Chinese tvs and and replaced the print on the keys. It's lightweight, poorly organised, feels cheap and I don't even like how the key press feels. It's the worst remote I've ever used and given how that's my closest interface to the device, it bothers me.

2) The latency between a keypress and something happening on screen. Don't get me wrong, I understand they had to cheap out on the IC they are using to process the OSD and the QT-based interface they are using can't go any faster, but I'm used a simple-but-working 720p Yamaha OSD where if I adjust the volume on my remote, I can have visual feedback in real time. This one has a delay, that was absolutely ridiculous, like 700ms out of the box, and after a few updates got down to manageable-but-still-bad.

3) There are plenty of features, but they are poorly programmed. Take airplay, for example. My phone thinks it's carplay. When adjusting volume or skipping tracks from my phone (or from the remote) it takes a full second before a section from the receiver. The interface is so ugly I can't stand to watch it.

4) I had problems with the simplest things, like getting my PC's 4k 30fps outputs to work when the Denon was in between, which again makes me think this product was rushed to the market.

I'm very tempted to return it, but I wouldn't know what to replace it with. I might be missing the mark completely here, but I believe I would enjoy a simpler receiver with less, better implemented features more.

... Then again, according to this forum I need to stick to Denon for their audyssey (and maybe even pay more for audyssey 32).

Thank you for any discussion.
You sound spoiled to be honest. I dont think the UI would be any faster or better as denon has one of the best. I have owned onkyo and generally speaking their modern products IMO are junk and have HDMI issues the two I had both broke a month apart. Yamaha I would say is the most reliable receiver brand on the market we own three and they are great. The UI is not as nice as denons and the room correction is not as good as xt32. Our theater has a denon in it currently. Something like an anthem has a superior room correction, but requires you to use your computer and is substantially more than the denon you currently have. Pioneer is basically an onkyo and has similar issues and a poor UI.
Its not like your constantly modifying settings on the receiver so once its setup you shouldn't need to touch it. As for the remote feeling cheap I dont know how much different the remote is compared to the mid tier or higher end models I imagine they are similar. Marantz has a bit higher fit and finish on their AV and remote.
If the video latency is not quick enough just bypass video and use the AV for audio. That 2600 should have the most modern video processing but its not my area of expertise as I only use AV for tv and movies. Someone else could comment in that regard.

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post #4 of 10 Old 10-19-2019, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bfan1 View Post
I might be spoiled. This has nothing to do with sound quality, as it played the best audio I've ever listened to in my home theatre when I tested it with my new Onkyo SKS-HT978 THX speaker set.



Rather, I don't like the primitive software. It might be job conditioning. Here is what bothers me:



1) The remote is cheap and poorly designed. I like nothing about it. It's almost like they choose the same supplier selling remotes to companies selling $40 Chinese tvs and and replaced the print on the keys. It's lightweight, poorly organised, feels cheap and I don't even like how the key press feels. It's the worst remote I've ever used and given how that's my closest interface to the device, it bothers me.



2) The latency between a keypress and something happening on screen. Don't get me wrong, I understand they had to cheap out on the IC they are using to process the OSD and the QT-based interface they are using can't go any faster, but I'm used a simple-but-working 720p Yamaha OSD where if I adjust the volume on my remote, I can have visual feedback in real time. This one has a delay, that was absolutely ridiculous, like 700ms out of the box, and after a few updates got down to manageable-but-still-bad.



3) There are plenty of features, but they are poorly programmed. Take airplay, for example. My phone thinks it's carplay. When adjusting volume or skipping tracks from my phone (or from the remote) it takes a full second before a section from the receiver. The interface is so ugly I can't stand to watch it.



4) I had problems with the simplest things, like getting my PC's 4k 30fps outputs to work when the Denon was in between, which again makes me think this product was rushed to the market.



I'm very tempted to return it, but I wouldn't know what to replace it with. I might be missing the mark completely here, but I believe I would enjoy a simpler receiver with less, better implemented features more.



... Then again, according to this forum I need to stick to Denon for their audyssey (and maybe even pay more for audyssey 32).



Thank you for any discussion.
Sorry you feel that way.
My two cents:
I had in the last three years:
1) Onkyo 646
2) Yamaha 681
3) Denon 4300H
4) Onkyo 840.

The Yamaha and the Denon simple couldnt match the sound I liked from the Onkyo. XT32: if you disable it, Denon sucks.

Please, dont continue reading if someone start comparing the Onkyo referring to HDMI issues.
I read a couple of guys who returned the Onkyo because they couldnt find how to enable HDMI Enhanced on their receivers blaming the HDMI board.

Regarding the GUI and bell's and whistles, Yamaha wins every time.
Regarding personal customization settings, options: Denon wins by huge miles, for instance, I really miss being able to set the speaker levels for every input, and the Denon rememers every setting on every source. But, really, I want a good sound from a receiver, no a good sound only resting on Audyssey XT32 to achieve good sound.
Regarding sound: Finally I could grab my hands again on an Onkyo . I really wish the Onkyo has the same customization level available on the Denon though.
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post #5 of 10 Old 10-19-2019, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asabrag View Post
Sorry you feel that way.
My two cents:
I had in the last three years:
1) Onkyo 646
2) Yamaha 681
3) Denon 4300H
4) Onkyo 840.

The Yamaha and the Denon simple couldnt match the sound I liked from the Onkyo. XT32: if you disable it, Denon sucks.

Please, dont continue reading if someone start comparing the Onkyo referring to HDMI issues.
I read a couple of guys who returned the Onkyo because they couldnt find how to enable HDMI Enhanced on their receivers blaming the HDMI board.

Regarding the GUI and bell's and whistles, Yamaha wins every time.
Regarding personal customization settings, options: Denon wins by huge miles, for instance, I really miss being able to set the speaker levels for every input, and the Denon rememers every setting on every source. But, really, I want a good sound from a receiver, no a good sound only resting on Audyssey XT32 to achieve good sound.
Regarding sound: Finally I could grab my hands again on an Onkyo . I really wish the Onkyo has the same customization level available on the Denon though.
Onkyo has had some very well known widespread HDMI board issues in the recent past. They took care of their customers. I would rather they had done some better QC testing on the boards before they installed them. Every manufacturer has had some issues. Yamaha has the best reputation for longevity and problem free performance. Taking away Audyssey from Denon and saying it won't sound good without it is like removing a wheel from your car and complaining how poorly it drives. Denon has a fantastic sound. As do they all. Everyone manufacturer has their promoters and detractors.

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post #6 of 10 Old 10-19-2019, 12:33 PM
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Way too many generalizations made in this thread. Options and quality varies greatly by year, brand, model.
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post #7 of 10 Old 10-19-2019, 12:42 PM
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Way too many generalizations made in this thread. Options and quality varies greatly by year, brand, model.
I can agree with that but year over year data does support Yamaha longevity being better than the others.

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post #8 of 10 Old 10-20-2019, 03:42 AM
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All remotes are cheap. Manufacturers go to remote companies to manufacture the remote. They just pick the style from the catalog and customize the buttons and the codes sent. They are cheap and probably are a dollar all said. A review of one catalog I saw turned into a game of which device used that remote.

If the feel is an issue, replacement remotes are common and easily available. There are many excellent universal remote solutions out there
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post #9 of 10 Old 10-20-2019, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by bfan1 View Post
I might be spoiled...

1) The remote is cheap and poorly designed...

2) The latency between a keypress and something happening on screen...

3) There are plenty of features, but they are poorly programmed...
I prefer the word 'discerning' instead of 'spoiled.' ;-)

I have all these problems too, and more: I can't stand wiggly knobs, or faceplates that have weird textures, or bad fonts on screens, or modes that have too many steps. I hate constricted user interfaces, especially ones based on screens. (I'm a programmer, so not a technophobe!) I'd rather handle a single-purpose toggle switch than double-clicking some multipurpose knob and horrible menu system. I've purchased & returned countless pieces of gear that sounded good, but just felt wrong to me.

Unfortunately I don't have a good answer for you, except to consider & understand the attributes you care about. You clearly care about design, to a point where poor design causes anguish. You literally feel the effects of bad design. It's a curse that I know well. ;-) You might as well go with your gut, and recognize that most people don't care -- and won't.

I care about my tools. I wouldn't buy a tool that fit poorly in my hand, or whose fussiness overwhelmed its usefulness. I'd rather spend more for a better tool, even if it had fewer functions, or even use more primitive tools if that felt better.

I realized that probably no AVR units were going to work for me -- they're a great example of an inherently complex user interface. I enjoy a system composed of parts that do one (maybe two) things well. So I have a separate HDMI switcher, audio extractor, ADC, DAC, player (Oppo 101ci for DVDs/BDs, a 30-year old Sony CDP-707ESD for CDs), streamer (AppleTV), preamp (1980s high-end ES series), EQ/DSP, and power amp. It's not simpler, of course, but it's a different sort of complexity. I like the physicality of it, and of knowing exactly how the signals travel. And I enjoy being able to switch things around, which I do often.

As for remotes: besides my old Sony remotes from the 80s, the remote for my Oppo 105 (and 101ci) are pretty great. Otherwise they're all awful. I'm actually planning on building my own remote, since most of the gear listed above has either IR or RS-232 interfaces.
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post #10 of 10 Old 10-20-2019, 10:07 PM
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I’d return it if I were you.
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