To EQ or not to EQ: receiver sound quality differences - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 9Likes
  • 3 Post By audiofan1
  • 2 Post By BigCoolJesus
  • 1 Post By zorax2
  • 1 Post By BigCoolJesus
  • 1 Post By zorax2
  • 1 Post By Archaea
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 24 Old 10-21-2019, 05:19 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
BigCoolJesus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 5,186
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2210 Post(s)
Liked: 1743
To EQ or not to EQ: receiver sound quality differences

Hey all.

So after a few months of turmoil I decided to treat myself by pre-ordering the upcoming NAD T778 receiver. My setup is 5.1.4 currently being run by a Denon x4500, so I figured stepping up to Dirac would be a heck of a treat to myself (having exclusively been an Anthem Arc person before this Denon purchase). Usage is strictly movies and TV/gaming. No music.

But as I wait on the pre-order, I've been looking around and giving it more thought and have wondered: if you take away room EQ offerings, and assuming speakers are being provided adequate power from every receiver in question, is there much of a sound quality difference between top end receivers?

My specific question comes down to comparing the Denon x6500, the Yamaha A3080, the upcoming Pioneer LX704, the current NAD T777v3 (plus a cheap 2 channel amp), and the upcoming NAD T778. If you were planning on using one of these without their EQ programs, which would take the cake most likely as is?
Is there another receiver to consider under $2500 amongst these if EQ isn't necessary?

Then the follow-up question: does adding something as high end as Dirac Live into the equation really change the decision of which one to go with (if it wasn't NAD for instance originally)?

I'm just wondering if I'm at the point of my A/V hobby where I should care less about EQ calibration and more about the best quality unit that I then dial in with an SPL meter. The room itself already has decent sound treatment to it and speaker placement is pretty much all equidistant to MLP with ideal placement.
BigCoolJesus is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 24 Old 10-21-2019, 10:10 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
eriksells916's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Rocklin, Ca
Posts: 1,181
Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 540 Post(s)
Liked: 205
@BigCoolJesus I own nothing high-end and only have a living room theater with 50/50 movies/music setup, so this info is just from reading through the forums, no first hand experience.

Room correction is important for home theater. However, so are room treatments, having good speakers and possibly multiple subs. I would start there since your x4500 is plenty capable plus it has Audyssey xt32 with subeqht which is the only one in that bunch that calibrates dual subs semi-independently. Plus if you want to wait, you can get something in 2020/2021 with hdmi 2.1 for 8k.

So (NAD) Dirac Live is supposed to be the best room correction solution available to us basic home theater users (Trinnov-next level sh*t) but it had no dual sub control until now. Looks like they just introduced an add-on module that can do dual sub correction, but its an extra $399, iirc? Yamaha sub correction has always been a little behind the times. The 2x4 minidsp can fix that but at an additional $350 cost.

You will get 10 different answers on which avr is better without eq. Again depends on your speakers, but the NAD, 3080 or x6500 are all excellent. Choose whichever one is the cheapest and has the most features you will actually use/need. Or if you have a wireless ecosystem in your home, each has its own; musiccast (yamaha), flareconnect (onkyo/pioneer), heos (denon/marantz) and the newer onkyo/pioneer/integras are sonos compatable.

good luck!
eriksells916 is offline  
post #3 of 24 Old 10-21-2019, 11:09 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
audiofan1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 6,784
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2351 Post(s)
Liked: 2951
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post
Hey all.

So after a few months of turmoil I decided to treat myself by pre-ordering the upcoming NAD T778 receiver. My setup is 5.1.4 currently being run by a Denon x4500, so I figured stepping up to Dirac would be a heck of a treat to myself (having exclusively been an Anthem Arc person before this Denon purchase). Usage is strictly movies and TV/gaming. No music.

But as I wait on the pre-order, I've been looking around and giving it more thought and have wondered: if you take away room EQ offerings, and assuming speakers are being provided adequate power from every receiver in question, is there much of a sound quality difference between top end receivers?

My specific question comes down to comparing the Denon x6500, the Yamaha A3080, the upcoming Pioneer LX704, the current NAD T777v3 (plus a cheap 2 channel amp), and the upcoming NAD T778. If you were planning on using one of these without their EQ programs, which would take the cake most likely as is?
Is there another receiver to consider under $2500 amongst these if EQ isn't necessary?

Then the follow-up question: does adding something as high end as Dirac Live into the equation really change the decision of which one to go with (if it wasn't NAD for instance originally)?

I'm just wondering if I'm at the point of my A/V hobby where I should care less about EQ calibration and more about the best quality unit that I then dial in with an SPL meter. The room itself already has decent sound treatment to it and speaker placement is pretty much all equidistant to MLP with ideal placement.
Use the Audyssey app on the Denon and with already great speakers well positioned, limit correction up to 300 to 500hz and Bamm! best of all worlds. I'm no longer curios about Dirac or any other correction suit as Audyssey does extremely well at correcting bass
eriksells916, pbz06 and zorax2 like this.
audiofan1 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 24 Old 10-21-2019, 12:46 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
BigCoolJesus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 5,186
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2210 Post(s)
Liked: 1743
Just to add some additional info: In terms of setup, nothing else is capable or necessary to update/put money into. Speakers are staying as is. Sub is staying as is and there is no room or ability to add a second. Treatments are best they can be.



The T778 has already been paid for (though I can get a refund anytime before shipment) so in terms of money, that is my limit ($2500). Just very curious on input from as many as possible on what they would consider the best quality receiver (or even pre/pro that fits into my max budget with amp costs added), especially with brand names being condensed under larger companies in the last decade or so.


Thanks!
BigCoolJesus is online now  
post #5 of 24 Old 10-21-2019, 03:32 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
eriksells916's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Rocklin, Ca
Posts: 1,181
Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 540 Post(s)
Liked: 205
@BigCoolJesus When you are talking about 7-11 channels with an emphasis on fidelity, build quality, excellent room correction but can live with a steeper learning curve and sometimes less hdmi inputs and features, then consider Arcam, Lexicon, Anthem, Cambridge and NAD.

If you are into HT and want more features, good sound, lots of channels and features with an easier setup process, then look at Yamaha, Denon, Marantz, Pioneer Elite and Onkyo.

If you want to wait for the 2020 hdmi 2.1 models and get something for the time being, then get a deal on a 2018 model and pocket the rest for next year.

NAD 758 v3 (still has dirac live and can expand to 11 channels)
Yamaha rx-a3070
Denon xx4500/x6400
Marantz sr7012
Elite sc-lx701/801 (2016 models)

Hope that helps you decide
eriksells916 is offline  
post #6 of 24 Old 10-21-2019, 03:41 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
BigCoolJesus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 5,186
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2210 Post(s)
Liked: 1743
Definitely do not need to wait for HDMI 2.1 models to roll out (unnecessary to me for the next couple of years).
BigCoolJesus is online now  
post #7 of 24 Old 10-22-2019, 06:40 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
BigCoolJesus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 5,186
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2210 Post(s)
Liked: 1743
Cancelled my preorder on the NAD...after a few days of sitting on the price, decided it just is a little steep for me just to get Dirac. Thinking of keeping my 4500 for now, adding a nice (5) channel amp at the moment, and seeing what a pre/pro setup might look like in 2020.
zorax2 and audiofan1 like this.
BigCoolJesus is online now  
post #8 of 24 Old 10-22-2019, 10:08 AM
Advanced Member
 
zorax2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 632
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 292 Post(s)
Liked: 326
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post
Cancelled my preorder on the NAD...after a few days of sitting on the price, decided it just is a little steep for me just to get Dirac. Thinking of keeping my 4500 for now, adding a nice (5) channel amp at the moment, and seeing what a pre/pro setup might look like in 2020.

As mentioned earlier in the thread, use the Denon app and correct only to 300 to 500 Hz should go a long way in terms of sound quality. I think adding the amp (will not improve sound quality in most situations) positions you better for the new crop of 16 channel pre/pros that will have DIRAC and DIRAC bass management. A lot of those will be introduced at $5K or less but are still beyond your current budget. However, you may want to stay on top of the thread on $5K and less pre/pros to see what's going on as within a year or two new or used models may get to a point where you can afford it.

I'm in a well treated room with a Denon 4300 and amps and it sounds very good but curiosity is killing me and I'll be moving to one of the new pre/pros by next Spring and hopefully the Trinnov within 2 to 3 years possibly. I'm glad I picked up quality used amps along the way (ATI 2005 and ATI 1807) which makes it a much easier path to a pre/pro from a budget standpoint.
audiofan1 likes this.

7.2.4 with Denon X4300W, ATI 2005 & 1807 Amps, Kef Reference 203 Mains, 202c Ctr, 201 Surr, Ci200RR-THX Top Rears, Q300 Frt Hts, E301 Rear Surr, Power Sound Audio PSA dual S3600i Subs,
GIK & DIY Acoustics, JVC X790/RS540 Projector, Stewart Neve 100" Screen, Panasonic Blu-Ray DMP-UB900, Xbox One X, Crowson Transducers, INSTEON, UDI ISY994i, Amazon Echo
zorax2 is offline  
post #9 of 24 Old 10-22-2019, 11:43 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
BigCoolJesus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 5,186
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2210 Post(s)
Liked: 1743
Quote:
Originally Posted by zorax2 View Post
As mentioned earlier in the thread, use the Denon app and correct only to 300 to 500 Hz should go a long way in terms of sound quality. I think adding the amp (will not improve sound quality in most situations) positions you better for the new crop of 16 channel pre/pros that will have DIRAC and DIRAC bass management. A lot of those will be introduced at $5K or less but are still beyond your current budget. However, you may want to stay on top of the thread on $5K and less pre/pros to see what's going on as within a year or two new or used models may get to a point where you can afford it.

I'm in a well treated room with a Denon 4300 and amps and it sounds very good but curiosity is killing me and I'll be moving to one of the new pre/pros by next Spring and hopefully the Trinnov within 2 to 3 years possibly. I'm glad I picked up quality used amps along the way (ATI 2005 and ATI 1807) which makes it a much easier path to a pre/pro from a budget standpoint.

I just picked up an Emotiva BasX 5175 amp (125w all channels driven) from the classified section for $600. I know adding it to the Denon won't do anything for sound now, but figure it is a good cornerstone for a possible Pre/Pro switch next year as you said. Maybe even see if Anthem has a new model coming out soon. I'll also keep an eye out for a nice but cheaper 5 channel amp (like the BasX A-500) to add in for my Atmos channels at some point. This just seems like the best route.


My ONLY burning question is what difference there is quality wise between the Denon x4500 and x6500...
zorax2 likes this.
BigCoolJesus is online now  
post #10 of 24 Old 10-22-2019, 11:52 AM
Advanced Member
 
zorax2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 632
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 292 Post(s)
Liked: 326
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post
My ONLY burning question is what difference there is quality wise between the Denon x4500 and x6500...

With a group of other AVSers, we did unsighted blind A/B testing with instantaneous switching of a Marantz 8802, Marantz 7703, Denon 4200 and others. You could switch as many times as you'd like between A/B. This was performed on two different home theater systems. Pure direct mode was used.

Our findings: You will hear ZERO difference between any mid-range or higher AVR or PrePro if there is no room correction used. It makes sense - all of these have S/N ratios well above what our ears are capable of resolving. Other AVS GTGs have arrived at the same results.

The biggest differentiator is room correction - DIRAC, Audyssey, MCACC, YPAO, etc.

7.2.4 with Denon X4300W, ATI 2005 & 1807 Amps, Kef Reference 203 Mains, 202c Ctr, 201 Surr, Ci200RR-THX Top Rears, Q300 Frt Hts, E301 Rear Surr, Power Sound Audio PSA dual S3600i Subs,
GIK & DIY Acoustics, JVC X790/RS540 Projector, Stewart Neve 100" Screen, Panasonic Blu-Ray DMP-UB900, Xbox One X, Crowson Transducers, INSTEON, UDI ISY994i, Amazon Echo
zorax2 is offline  
post #11 of 24 Old 10-22-2019, 11:59 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
BigCoolJesus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 5,186
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2210 Post(s)
Liked: 1743
Quote:
Originally Posted by zorax2 View Post
With a group of other AVSers, we did unsighted blind A/B testing with instantaneous switching of a Marantz 8802, Marantz 7703, Denon 4200 and others. You could switch as many times as you'd like between A/B. This was performed on two different home theater systems. Pure direct mode was used.

Our findings: You will hear ZERO difference between any mid-range or higher AVR or PrePro if there is no room correction used. It makes sense - all of these have S/N ratios well above what our ears are capable of resolving. Other AVS GTGs have arrived at the same results.

The biggest differentiator is room correction - DIRAC, Audyssey, MCACC, YPAO, etc.

Ahh, thanks! So the whole "Made in Japan" quality or the Monolithic amp design of the x6500 mean nothing if all needs are being met power wise for the speakers (and no inherent faults with that particular AVR is present)?



That was also the original intent of this thread, discussion of true tonal/quality difference when you remove room EQ offerings. Sure, Dirac is that good (and so is ARC from how often I have used it). Audyssey does good up to a point. Etc etc. But when I read reviews of people (audiophiles) saying "This AVR has a much more open and encompassing stage for movies than that AVR" or "The sounds is perfectly neutral when using this brand AVR" that are impressions done without using room EQ....I start to wonder what actual truth there is too it?
BigCoolJesus is online now  
post #12 of 24 Old 10-22-2019, 12:32 PM
Advanced Member
 
zorax2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 632
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 292 Post(s)
Liked: 326
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post
Ahh, thanks! So the whole "Made in Japan" quality or the Monolithic amp design of the x6500 mean nothing if all needs are being met power wise for the speakers (and no inherent faults with that particular AVR is present)?
Correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post
That was also the original intent of this thread, discussion of true tonal/quality difference when you remove room EQ offerings. Sure, Dirac is that good (and so is ARC from how often I have used it). Audyssey does good up to a point. Etc etc. But when I read reviews of people (audiophiles) saying "This AVR has a much more open and encompassing stage for movies than that AVR" or "The sounds is perfectly neutral when using this brand AVR" that are impressions done without using room EQ....I start to wonder what actual truth there is too it?
Again - correct. I don't think there is much to be said for most AVR reviews whereas there should be some merit to speaker reviews as there are differences there.

I'm guilty of bias myself. I did "sighted" testing with a group of AVSers and found the 8802 to be much better than a Denon X4200 or X4300 which is why I bought an 8802. I, along with the others, were blown away that the 8802 sounded no better (or worse) than the X4200 in blind testing. All of us had been "schooled" that prepros sound better than AVRs, the build quality is "better", it's made in Japan rather than "xxx", etc., etc., etc. While all those facts may be true, we could not HEAR any difference that made those attributes worth anything in terms of an audible quality difference. It changed the way all of us felt about our audio IQ and continues to influence our choices in upgrading our systems.

The biggest differences we can make in our systems are acoustic treatment, speaker and sub selection and positioning and the type of room EQ processing method used. I just purchased Floyd Toole's book "Sound Reproduction" to learn more from the master in my attempts to continually improve my home theater setup.

7.2.4 with Denon X4300W, ATI 2005 & 1807 Amps, Kef Reference 203 Mains, 202c Ctr, 201 Surr, Ci200RR-THX Top Rears, Q300 Frt Hts, E301 Rear Surr, Power Sound Audio PSA dual S3600i Subs,
GIK & DIY Acoustics, JVC X790/RS540 Projector, Stewart Neve 100" Screen, Panasonic Blu-Ray DMP-UB900, Xbox One X, Crowson Transducers, INSTEON, UDI ISY994i, Amazon Echo
zorax2 is offline  
post #13 of 24 Old 10-22-2019, 12:41 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
BigCoolJesus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 5,186
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2210 Post(s)
Liked: 1743
Quote:
Originally Posted by zorax2 View Post
Correct.



Again - correct. I don't think there is much to be said for most AVR reviews whereas there should be some merit to speaker reviews as there are differences there.

I'm guilty of bias myself. I did "sighted" testing with a group of AVSers and found the 8802 to be much better than a Denon X4200 or X4300 which is why I bought an 8802. I, along with the others, were blown away that the 8802 sounded no better (or worse) than the X4200 in blind testing. All of us had been "schooled" that prepros sound better than AVRs, the build quality is "better", it's made in Japan rather than "xxx", etc., etc., etc. While all those facts may be true, we could not HEAR any difference that made those attributes worth anything in terms of an audible quality difference. It changed the way all of us felt about our audio IQ and continues to influence our choices in upgrading our systems.

The biggest differences we can make in our systems are acoustic treatment, speaker and sub selection and positioning and the type of room EQ processing method used. I just purchased Floyd Toole's book "Sound Reproduction" to learn more from the master in my attempts to continually improve my home theater setup.

Thanks!


I've been trying to make strides where possible (at least treating first reflections with sound panels while maintaining a living room feel). One change I did make with Anthem ARC over the last year is only applying correction up to the woofer/tweeter crossover range (so for my PSA's around 1500Hz) based on the consensus of those a lot more knowledgeable than me. But for Audyssey you think I should stick to a max of 500Hz EQ?
BigCoolJesus is online now  
post #14 of 24 Old 10-22-2019, 01:07 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
zeus33's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 4,156
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1845 Post(s)
Liked: 1907
Quote:
Originally Posted by eriksells916 View Post
I would start there since your x4500 is plenty capable plus it has Audyssey xt32 with subeqht which is the only one in that bunch that calibrates dual subs semi-independently.

Just for clarification, SubEQ does not EQ dual subs independently. It will ping each sub separately to set distance and level and then ping both subs together and will EQ both subs as one.
zeus33 is online now  
post #15 of 24 Old 10-22-2019, 03:09 PM
Advanced Member
 
zorax2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 632
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 292 Post(s)
Liked: 326
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post
Thanks!

I've been trying to make strides where possible (at least treating first reflections with sound panels while maintaining a living room feel). One change I did make with Anthem ARC over the last year is only applying correction up to the woofer/tweeter crossover range (so for my PSA's around 1500Hz) based on the consensus of those a lot more knowledgeable than me. But for Audyssey you think I should stick to a max of 500Hz EQ?

Research by Dr. Toole and others have shown that the biggest variable with sound in a room is below the transition / Schroeder frequency which is often between 300 and 500 Hz. In the lower frequencies, standing waves take over (requiring room correction EQ) and above Schroeder, the speakers take over. I'm still learning more about this via Dr. Toole's book and threads here on the forum. There is a lot of discussion of "Schroeder Frequency" if you use the search function to learn more.
BigCoolJesus likes this.

7.2.4 with Denon X4300W, ATI 2005 & 1807 Amps, Kef Reference 203 Mains, 202c Ctr, 201 Surr, Ci200RR-THX Top Rears, Q300 Frt Hts, E301 Rear Surr, Power Sound Audio PSA dual S3600i Subs,
GIK & DIY Acoustics, JVC X790/RS540 Projector, Stewart Neve 100" Screen, Panasonic Blu-Ray DMP-UB900, Xbox One X, Crowson Transducers, INSTEON, UDI ISY994i, Amazon Echo
zorax2 is offline  
post #16 of 24 Old 10-22-2019, 03:28 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Archaea's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Kansas City, MO
Posts: 11,245
Mentioned: 629 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3914 Post(s)
Liked: 3713
We did a blind autoeq comparison of a handful of flagship AVRs in 2014, and the unit that arguably won was a low end Onkyo with (new at the time) Dolby EQ, that didn't even apply AutoEQ to the speakers - only to the subs.

EQ's aim is to enhance one seat or small listening area, unfortunately this tuning can sometimes be to the detriment to the whole of the larger listening area -- also -- there is so much variance among the autoeq - even simply among the mics that are bundled with each piece of equipment - how do you even know what you are comparing? That said - DIRAC has lots of positive comments, and is generally regarded on this forum as the best autoeq solution currently available.

AutoEQ compared in a blind meet
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...nsas-city.html


Two Audyssey Mics compared
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...xt32-mics.html


Three Audyssey Mics compared
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...crophones.html

Archaea's 9.12.4 Home Theater Room
(13) JBL CBT 70j-1 | Denon x7200wa | Sherbourn PA 7-350 amplifier | (8) Ultimax 18" sealed subwoofers | (4) iNuke DSP 6000 amplifiers | (4) MB Quart 12" subwoofers mounted direct mounted to Berkline theater chairs BOSS style | Epson 5040UB Projector | Jamestown 144" acoustic transparent 2.35:1 screen w/ Seymour XD fabric
Archaea is offline  
post #17 of 24 Old 10-22-2019, 04:00 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
M Code's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Cotati, CA
Posts: 11,930
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1127 Post(s)
Liked: 733
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
We did a blind autoeq comparison of a handful of flagship AVRs in 2014, and the unit that arguably won was a low end Onkyo with (new at the time) Dolby EQ, that didn't even apply AutoEQ to the speakers - only to the subs.

EQ's aim is to enhance one seat or small listening area, unfortunately this tuning can sometimes be to the detriment to the whole of the larger listening area -- also -- there is so much variance among the autoeq - even simply among the mics that are bundled with each piece of equipment - how do you even know what you are comparing? That said - DIRAC has lots of positive comments, and is generally regarded on this forum as the best autoeq solution currently available.

AutoEQ compared in a blind meet
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...nsas-city.html


Two Audyssey Mics compared
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...xt32-mics.html


Three Audyssey Mics compared
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...crophones.html
Keep in mind...

Each brand of software for auto Room EQ uses a different end target transfer function..
So when comparing listening conclusions between these different EQ software, they will sound audibly different..

Just my $0.02...
M Code is online now  
post #18 of 24 Old 10-22-2019, 04:25 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Archaea's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Kansas City, MO
Posts: 11,245
Mentioned: 629 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3914 Post(s)
Liked: 3713
Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post
Keep in mind...



Each brand of software for auto Room EQ uses a different “end target transfer function”..

So when comparing listening conclusions between these different EQ software, they will sound audibly different..



Just my $0.02...


I google searched your keyword and found out you just made that up to sound smaaaaart.

Archaea's 9.12.4 Home Theater Room
(13) JBL CBT 70j-1 | Denon x7200wa | Sherbourn PA 7-350 amplifier | (8) Ultimax 18" sealed subwoofers | (4) iNuke DSP 6000 amplifiers | (4) MB Quart 12" subwoofers mounted direct mounted to Berkline theater chairs BOSS style | Epson 5040UB Projector | Jamestown 144" acoustic transparent 2.35:1 screen w/ Seymour XD fabric
Archaea is offline  
post #19 of 24 Old 10-22-2019, 04:33 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
BigCoolJesus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 5,186
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2210 Post(s)
Liked: 1743
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
We did a blind autoeq comparison of a handful of flagship AVRs in 2014, and the unit that arguably won was a low end Onkyo with (new at the time) Dolby EQ, that didn't even apply AutoEQ to the speakers - only to the subs.

EQ's aim is to enhance one seat or small listening area, unfortunately this tuning can sometimes be to the detriment to the whole of the larger listening area -- also -- there is so much variance among the autoeq - even simply among the mics that are bundled with each piece of equipment - how do you even know what you are comparing? That said - DIRAC has lots of positive comments, and is generally regarded on this forum as the best autoeq solution currently available.

AutoEQ compared in a blind meet
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...nsas-city.html


Two Audyssey Mics compared
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...xt32-mics.html


Three Audyssey Mics compared
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...crophones.html

One thing I will point out in regards to the different measurement results using different Audyssey microphones (even if they are the same model microphone) is that Audyssey themselves have said that the microphones are "calibrated" in batches and each model AVR has a calibration curve associated with that mic batch.


I actually replicated this easily as when I swapped out my Denon x6500 with the 4500, I was lazy and didn't switch the mics (so I was using the mic from the 6500 on the 4500) and immediately saw on the MultEQ editor app large discrepancy in lower end measurement, especially for my subwoofer. Switching the microphones fixed the issue. Both mics were the same model but had different manufacturer dates.
BigCoolJesus is online now  
post #20 of 24 Old 10-22-2019, 05:13 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
noah katz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Mountain View, CA USA
Posts: 23,020
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2103 Post(s)
Liked: 758
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
That said - DIRAC has lots of positive comments, and is generally regarded on this forum as the best autoeq solution currently available.

Yes, on this forum, but then there's Trinnov and Lyngdorf's RoomPerfect.

Noah
noah katz is online now  
post #21 of 24 Old 10-28-2019, 12:48 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 42
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
Yes, on this forum, but then there's Trinnov and Lyngdorf's RoomPerfect.
I have Heard roomperfect and it was great, but I wouldn’t say it was better than Dirac live. They booth sound extremely good

NAD T758 v3 - KEF LS50 - SVS SB16 Ultra - HECO On wall - LG C8
HT: NAD T758 v3 - Audiovector S3 signature - S3 Signature Center - SVS PC13 Ultra - SVS Prime Elevation - Polk S15 - Optoma UHD40
AVTimme is offline  
post #22 of 24 Old 10-28-2019, 05:35 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
noah katz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Mountain View, CA USA
Posts: 23,020
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2103 Post(s)
Liked: 758
Quote:
Originally Posted by AVTimme View Post
I have Heard roomperfect and it was great, but I wouldn’t say it was better than Dirac live. They booth sound extremely good

Fair enough, as one data point.

On the AVForums Lyngdorf thread, many say RP is better, though granted it is a Lyngdorf forum.

Noah
noah katz is online now  
post #23 of 24 Old 10-28-2019, 05:49 PM
RUR
Innocent Bystander
 
RUR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Beershorn
Posts: 3,104
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 659 Post(s)
Liked: 608
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
Yes, on this forum, but then there's Trinnov and Lyngdorf's RoomPerfect.
Not only was Lyngdorf not (able to be?) included, but they "tested" an old, old, old, featureless version of Trinnov's Optimizer as used in the Sherwood AVR. That version bore scant resemblance to the one used in full-featured Trinnov products at the time, which are even more feature-rich today.

And, the test protocols left much to be desired, as I believe I mentioned at the time. I'd be careful not to draw any hard and fast conclusions.
RUR is offline  
post #24 of 24 Old 10-28-2019, 06:59 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Archaea's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Kansas City, MO
Posts: 11,245
Mentioned: 629 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3914 Post(s)
Liked: 3713
To EQ or not to EQ: receiver sound quality differences

Quote:
Originally Posted by RUR View Post
Not only was Lyngdorf not (able to be?) included, but they "tested" an old, old, old, featureless version of Trinnov's Optimizer as used in the Sherwood AVR. That version bore scant resemblance to the one used in full-featured Trinnov products at the time, which are even more feature-rich today.



And, the test protocols left much to be desired, as I believe I mentioned at the time. I'd be careful not to draw any hard and fast conclusions.

Test protocols left much to be desired?

I’ll absolutely take offense to that.

We documented the setup procedures quite well with pictures and text. We sought setup advice for months before.

We used an elaborate drum-stand setup to have the exact same mic positions for each AVR autoeq process to make it fair. Speakers were unmoved for each setup process, subs unmoved, mic locations unmoved. All calibrations done in advance of the blind testing, the day before in a low stress, long careful day of setup. Even the guests present during the setup the day before were required to sit in the same place in the back of the room for each run, way out of the range of the listening position - but just to make sure we had a fair run.

MLV volumes were level matched using a 800-1000hz test tone on the Disney calibration disk since the autoeq processes left us with such disparate main volumes we couldn’t otherwise reasonably compare the Auto EQ results.

The procedure was fair, equitable, and quite repeatable. The results each auto EQ produced was of its own volition. The audience audition was blind. It couldn’t have been any fairer, because there wasn’t much human interaction or subjective meddling in the project at all. In fact I’ve never read of a fairer comparison on these forums by unpaid enthusiasts. Any of the —“you should have done this" type feedback were based on subjective preferences (i.e. "Well, I do this to make it sound right") that would have messed with the auto EQ processes intended result that the manufacturer designed into their unique flavor of auto EQ.

The only pass I give, as the organizer of said meet, was Dirac. And it was because it was brand new. Nobody knew how to operate it at the time, the owner, @dgage shipped it to us without even having a chance to mess with it first, and it showed up pretty last minute and we didn’t get it right - I said this clearly in the write up.

Now as to applicability. I clearly stated the takeaways were NOT universally applicable to the reading audience. They were applicable to my room, with my speakers, with my sub positions. Because different speakers in different rooms with different mic positions (and even different individual vendor mics off the same assembly line) would generate different results.

The clearest take away from the Auto EQ testing, the point of made beyond conclusive, is that at that time (and almost certainly now too) that auto EQ calibrations do NOT make for a equitable reference level experience vendor to vendor.

Thus we cannot assume my reference settings, as calibrated with my AVRs auto EQ, is even close to your reference settings, as calibrated with your auto EQ.
MUDCAT45 likes this.

Archaea's 9.12.4 Home Theater Room
(13) JBL CBT 70j-1 | Denon x7200wa | Sherbourn PA 7-350 amplifier | (8) Ultimax 18" sealed subwoofers | (4) iNuke DSP 6000 amplifiers | (4) MB Quart 12" subwoofers mounted direct mounted to Berkline theater chairs BOSS style | Epson 5040UB Projector | Jamestown 144" acoustic transparent 2.35:1 screen w/ Seymour XD fabric

Last edited by Archaea; 10-28-2019 at 07:53 PM.
Archaea is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Receivers, Amps, and Processors

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off