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Will power conditioner hurt pre pro

15K views 69 replies 20 participants last post by  ThioJoe 
#1 ·
I have an onkyo pre pro and belles aria power amp and as I was looking into power conditioners like furman to use along with them, an online friend of mine is telling me that power conditioners limit performance, in the name of cleaning power, they limit the current being sent t and your equipment won't perform to the best of its ability. Is that true?
Do people on this forum recommend using power conditioners with pre pros, amps or avr's?
 
#2 ·
I have an onkyo pre pro and belles aria power amp and as I was looking into power conditioners like furman to use along with them, an online friend of mine is telling me that power conditioners limit performance, in the name of cleaning power, they limit the current being sent t and your equipment won't perform to the best of its ability. Is that true?

Do people on this forum recommend using power conditioners with pre pros, amps or avr's?
Why do you need a power conditioner? Do you live in an area where the AC power is unstable?

Power conditioners are the second snake oil products after power cables. They have zero affect on sound quality!

Audio components uses DC voltage to operate. The component manufacturers take the necessary actions to insure clean and regulated dc power.

The quality of the AC line has zero impact on the regulated dc supply.

If this wasn't the case, you'd see a recommendation to buy a power conditioner in the manual...

The only advantage of power conditioners is the included surge protection, but you can buy those seperatly for much cheaper.


As for the power demands, if the power conditioner is built right, that should not be a problem.

P.s, I happen to have a PhD degree in electrical engineering, and I work as a switching power supply designer for an Israeli company called Advice...


Better save your money for upgrading your equipment instead...

Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk
 
#3 ·
Yes, that can be true.

A pre-amp, probably not so much. A Power amplifier is a different circumstance. Many of the low end, less expensive power conditioners can/will limit current which can/will restrict the amplifiers output. Many amplifier companies recommend that you do not use a conditioner as a blanket statement as they can't control what people use.

My personal experience with Furman is that they are mostly junk. They can be ok for something like a pre-amp, CD/DVD player, etc. or something that does not present much of a load. A lot of the Furman units use cheap varistor circuits and circuit breakers for surge suppression and are little more than a pretty power strip.

However, conditioners from companies like Torus Power, properly sized, can work quite well. A good unit comes with a price and you get what you pay for.

https://www.toruspower.com/product-ranges/


FWIW, I don't use power conditioners.
 
#5 ·
Yes, that can be true.

A pre-amp, probably not so much. A Power amplifier is a different circumstance. Many of the low end, less expensive power conditioners can/will limit current which can/will restrict the amplifiers output. Many amplifier companies recommend that you do not use a conditioner as a blanket statement as they can't control what people use.

(1) My personal experience with Furman is that they are mostly junk. They can be ok for something like a pre-amp, CD/DVD player, etc. or something that does not present much of a load. A lot of the Furman units use cheap varistor circuits and circuit breakers for surge suppression and are little more than a pretty power strip.

However, conditioners from companies like Torus Power, properly sized, can work quite well. A good unit comes with a price and you get what you pay for.

https://www.toruspower.com/product-ranges/

FWIW, I don't use power conditioners.

The Furman power conditioner in the link below has series mode surge protection, similar to SurgeX, but without the SurgeX circuits that are still under patent. It also has Furman's standard filter circuit that is used in all of its higher end products. Please analyze the surge mode protection and filtering of this Furman product and explain in detail why you consider it junk.

https://www.amazon.com/Furman-Aluminum-8-Outlet-Protection-Conditioning/dp/B000YYVLAK/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=YLSD34T00MW1&keywords=furman+pst-8&qid=1573711869&sprefix=furman+%2Caps%2C209&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEyVFVaU0MwVVIxSjZRJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwNTE2MjA0M0NVVVJWQkhCUDJaRyZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUE
wODYyNDUzM0ZJRUQ4RjhXT1pSMSZ3aWRnZXROYW1lPXNwX2F0ZiZhY3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU=

Please also explain why purchasing a Torus unit, for example the one in the link below, for $5,000 would be superior to adding a new 20A circuit wired with 10 gauge cable, and then using the Furman PST-8 in the above link. The sales tax on the Torus might pay for the new circuit and PST-8.

https://www.toruspower.com/product-...-toroidal-isolation-power-transformer-review/

For reference here is a review with a measurements of an older Torus unit that doesn't appear to offer any amazing improvements:

https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews...itioner/a-secrets-power-conditioner-review75/
 
#4 ·
Thx for replies. I already have a surge protector, ill stop looking at furman units on amazon. dont want my expensive belles aria amp to be bogged down. Looks like this forum for the most part does not recommend power conditioners? But I must add, like cables, there is quite a divide over power conditioners if you do a web search. There is a subset of audiophiles that swear by them and their 'logic' hinges on a power conditioner making the power cleaner.
 
#6 ·
Easy, audiophools are whales, and are keeping the overpriced snake oil vendors in business. And the others actually work for the companies in question, so are naturally going to be salespeople trying to sell you overpriced junk. Or they're going to sell you stuff you don't really need (e.g., amplifiers are a common extra people get sold they may not really need).

A salesperson day is made when someone comes to them and asks if they need something. To no ones surprise, of course they do. And usually the most expensive one.
 
#7 ·
This is not always so black and white. There is definitely noise in my system during peak hours, when everyone in the neighborhood is home. IMO, a definitive statement that power conditioners are never useful is not accurate. And yes, the cheaper power conditioners/surge protectors can limit power to powerful amps.
 
#10 ·
This is just one of those subject's that tend to be lightning rods lol, not unlike expensive cables, or the vinyl vs cd arguments. You will find people who passionately think their side is right and the other it stupid lol Unless your AC power is really unstable, you probably would be wasting your money.
 
#12 ·
There are actually different issues involved in this thread.
1. Hopefully everyone can agree that a good surge protector is important. Lightening struck outside my house a few years ago and traveled into my house, affecting several outlets. Fortunately all my AV equipment (plugged into a Monster power conditioner) escaped damage, but several other things (including 2 computers and my electric garage door openers) were fried. IMO, cheap surge protectors don't offer much protection. After the incident, I had an electrician install surge protectors at the electrical panel (the best way to protect your home), and also have my AV equipment and computer plugged directly into good surge protectors for extra protection.
2. Power conditioners can remove ground loops, and can also help versus noisy power lines. If you don't have those issues in your home or apartment, then you probably don't need a power conditioner.
3. Some power conditioners may limit the amount of power that some amps may need. Preamps and other AV equipment don't draw as much power and should be fine.
4. The most controversial issue is whether power conditioners can actually make AV equipment perform better. Some magazine reviewers and audiophiles claim they can hear benefits, and others believe they are just snake oil. I will leave this argument to others (I have no opinion on this matter, assuming you are not affected by ground loops or noisy power).
 
#39 ·
My advice:

1. Plug your power amps directly into the wall.

2. Use a line conditioner or power strip for your other components (simply because you need more outlets).

3. Get whole-house surge protection at your breaker box.

That's what I did.
 
#56 ·
You’ve all done a nice job of outlining the benefits/drawbacks of the entry level Furman power strip. Given this is avsforum, I’m more interested in their high end products from an engineering standpoint, as well as the benefits/drawbacks. For example, the Furman it-reference 20i, or SPR 20i.
 
#57 · (Edited)
Both of those units have the same SMP protection as the cheaper models. They add additional filters and a huge capacitor (IT-REF 20I) and high-quality voltage regulation (SPR 20i). IIRC, they are using tech originally developed by Equitech.

First thing is to make sure you're not buying a solution in search of a problem. If you don't have voltage issues, then you shouldn't need a regulator. Amps and other AV products have their own transformer and convert to DC anyway, so it shouldn't add much, if anything.

Audioholics tested the "Power Factor" component and it didn't make any measurable difference in available current..

Though, I'm a bit of a power nerd and think they're really cool for some unknown reason. Might actually pick one up...
 
#60 · (Edited)
Are power conditioners good or bad?

This was a review about a Panamax power conditioner. Are the things hes saying true?

THE REVIEWER WROTE THIS: DO NOT plug your receivers subwoofers or power amplifiers into them. These type of conditioners restrict or limit current and amps need unrestricted current to work they're best. The consequence of this is it can severely affect the dynamics imaging and soundstage of your home theater. I learned this the hard way. From the moment I plugged it in I heard a huge difference in sound. After I checked in on several av forums I learned from others about this problem. If you have a dedicated 20 amp circuit to your home theater plug all your other gear into these but plug your amps subwoofers and av receivers straight into the wall.

I wrote this: Would a Monster surge protector do the same thing to an AVR or Crown power amp? Would it keep them from getting enough juice? My 2500 watt Crown amp has its own circuit. But my 1000 watt Crown and AVR and all my components are plugged into the Monster surge protector. Should I try a power conditioner or no?
 
#61 ·
Entirely up to you! I have my Parasound halo A21 plugged into my PS audio Dectet on a 10awg line with a 20amp circuit along with 2 other amps (11chs total) and it sounds very,very unrestricted with plenty of slam and incredible dynamics. Give it a shot and if not send it back;)
 
#63 · (Edited)
I have 6 power conditioners , along with a whole house surge protector. Most of these items are not made to handle things like power amplifiers. I can tell you right now, I would blow the monstor power pro 3500s I have, if I used them with some of the power amps I have here. I have a couple of the ART PS 4 x4 pros with advanced power filtering, and dual digital display. They are great items to have just for some extra protection for most any audio equipment, OTHER THAN AMPLIFIERS.

Some of the more important benefits of these items, are things such as , isolated power outlets, Additional available power sequencing, Extra front or rear lighting for when cable investigation is necessary, or just for seeing what you are doing in a dark room, as well as some idea of the amount of current you are using.
They are also a little fun, and can add some fancy looks to a persons entertainment center.

Great items to have for people with large collections of audio equipment. I would recommend not using them for power amplifiers, and just installing a 100 dollar whole house surge protector, for amplifier protection.

What do you say Don...... Do you have anything valuable to contribute on this subject.
 
#66 · (Edited)
I need to correct my previous posts about the "cleverness" of Furman's SMP+ circuit. I shouldn't have relied on reviews and marketing materials saying the MOV was placed after the inductor.
Testing the board, it traces just like it's laid out. Both MOVs are completely unprotected by the series mode circuit. The 1st MOV is also before the over-voltage relay and has no thermal protection. So it's completely unprotected and not part of the LED notification circuit on the front of the unit.
How in the world they can claim that two (tiny) 120J MOVs placed before a small ferrite core inductor is "Non-sacrificial series mode surge protection" is beyond me. This also explains how the let-through voltage on the Wirecutter test was so low. The MOVs shunts most of the surge energy so the inductor only has to absorb a small surge.

So the first MOV could be fried and you'd get no indication that the protection is compromised. At least the second MOV has a thermal fuse and the over-voltage circuit, but it's still only one MOV. Both of those MOV's are taking the surge hit every time. It's an undersized MOV-based surge protector with a little series mode thrown in after the MOVs have done most of the work.
Compare the SMP inductor to the dual air-core inductors of a SurgeX unit and it's pretty clear it would get saturated quickly without the MOVs shunting the surge to neutral.

If you want an MOV-based surge protector, I would definitely skip the Furman and go with a Panamax. They use the same over-voltage protection with multiple layers of thermally fused MOVs connected to the protection indicator light.

Good thing I have a couple SurgeX units :D
Your initial insticts were right. Don't listen to curry's lies. The series mode portion protects the MOVs by preventing them from reaching their heat coefficient. They won't wear down or pop from anything less than a direct lightning strike. Furman has tested their units to withstand the same 1000 surges of 6000V/3000A as series mode surge protectors. They wouldn't be able to handle the following tests if this weren't true.





Further:


"From Furman Power - FYI:

I would go with the Elite-15 DMi.

Our Series Multi-Stage Protection is indeed 100% Series Mode. We use both parallel and series surge suppression. Essentially we tweaked the original series mode design from Bell Laboratories. We use the series mode to protect the parallel TVSS (MOV’s). The MOV’s are used for two reasons. The first is high voltage MOV to protect the relay contacts from oxidization over time. The other is to achieve our low clamping voltage. This is not possible with just series mode as the clamping is dictated primarily by the large capacitor.

The M5300-PM is a great design but it is parallel surge only. For mission critical application and Furman with SMP is where I start. Below is a link to our tech note. You can read the SMP white paper. In fact there is a photo of the SMP circuit which show the large series inductor, large cap and rectifier circuit. All major components for any series mode design."


Please post pics of the SA-82's insides if you ever open one up.
 
#65 ·
Hi guys I need to buy a new ac power surge protection. I read a lot of test and review and i think the panamax m5400-pm was perfect for me. Someone get this product and this panamax is good?


I got my old monster cable hdp1800 but after 9 years is time to change.



I got : Big Receiver, tv, bluray, cd, tape ( yes i know lol ), headphone wireless, stb cable, streamer, etc.
 
#70 ·
This has nothing to do with instincts, my initial point still stands. MOVs are effective tools when used in properly designed circuits. They're in almost every piece of electronics. In this case, the Furman SMP doesn't use nearly enough MOVs and none of them are protected by the series mode circuit. That's how they get such a low let-through voltage, the 2 MOVs shunt the surge, then the small inductor deals with the rest.



No it doesn't, both MOVs are before the series mode circuit. The first one immediately shunts the surge to neutral and is not protected by the over voltage relay. It also is not connected to the "Protection OK" indicator on the front of the unit. So it could be blown and there's no way to know without opening up the unit.

View attachment 3090987



Where do they state this? The only thing they claim in their marketing literature is that it withstands multiple 6000V/3000A surges:

"In fact, the circuit is tested to handle multiple 6000 volt or 3000 amp pulses without sustaining any damage."

Series Multi-Stage Protection [SMP] | Furman Power

There's no way those 2 little MOVs could take 1000 6000V/3000A surges and that's precisely why they don't make that claim.
Apologies for reviving an old thread, but I've been scouring the web for a definitive answer on the "is Furman real series mode" question for weeks, and this seems to be the only thread where someone who seemingly knows what they're talking about actually opened one up.

I have a question about your analysis, and I could be totally off the mark, but I'm just curious:
Is it possible that the idea of the MOV being "before" the inductor doesn't actually matter? For example, take a simple circuit with a battery, a fuse, and resistor. Let's say the fuse would blow without a resistor in the circuit. But wouldn't it not matter which side of the fuse the resistor is placed, since in series it increases the resistance of the whole circuit? Could something along those lines be at play?

I'm not doubting your analysis (I have zero expertise in the area), and you very well may have already considered my point and the circuit is laid out in a way the order does indeed matter. I would just be surprised if a seemingly reputable company straight up seemingly lied bout a product being non-sacrificial.
 
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